The cure for privilege.

[rrneck]

Last edited Mon May 12, 2014, 07:42 PM - Edit history (1)

1. Find something important and meaningful to do.

2. Apply yourself to that task by helping whoever needs it to accomplish that common goal.

3. Sharing a nice cold beer at the end of the day isn't a bad idea either.

[VanillaRhapsody]

1. "privilege"

sorry to correct your spelling...

(oh and somehow I suspect you don't have any "inside track" on how to cure it either).

[rrneck]

3. No, you're not sorry, but thanks anyway.

I just love OP's like this that are designed to start a conversation but only result in snark about something that should be obvious to a child.

[VanillaRhapsody]

5. Obvious to a child?

Apparently there are a lot of these so called children on this board who refuse to see the obvious to a child "White Privilege" this country has....

so snark in the face of your minimizing the problem to the point of your suggestions are ludicrous. Yeah that is ALL that needs to be done to overcome "White male privilege"......yeah I call that simplistic and childlike and deserving of snark.

[rrneck]

6. You got a problem with people working together? nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

9. I got a problem with thinking singing Kumbaya and pretending White male privilege doesn't exist

together is going to solve it...

[rrneck]

11. I just offered a solution. That would assume I recognize a problem.

You got a problem with people working together?

[VanillaRhapsody]

106. Did I say that?

I said the first step to recovery is to ACCEPT the problem.....have you accepted White male privilege exists yet?

[rrneck]

108. I offered a solution.

A solution implies there is a problem to be solved. What part of "cure" did you not understand?

But the conversation about a solution isn't even possible is it? How much of a discussion about concrete progress have we seen in this thread? So far this morning I am just working from "my posts", so it might be there. But I doubt it. It's probably just wrangling about the semantics of the discussion and who is allowed to say what.

It's the same old thing, claiming turf in a rhetorical battle about human suffering.

[VanillaRhapsody]

111. HAVE you accepted it yet?

I do NOT want to hear "solutions" from those that do not accept that the problem exists....

Do you not understand that.....You cannot be a part of the solution WITHOUT accepting that truth.

When you have said that you accept White male privilege exists......let me know mkay?

[rrneck]

113. Remarkable.

What sort of confession would satisfy you? Do I seem to have not search my soul deeply enough?

This same language keeps popping up. "HAVE you accepted it yet?" It sounds familiar...

[VanillaRhapsody]

115. White male privilege...

it is really simple.....but you knew that.....

You just can't do it...

[rrneck]

116. The OP did it.

You just can't, or won't, acknowledge it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

117. did you?

If so....say it!

It is very easy "I accept that White male privilege exists"

[rrneck]

118. What part of "cure" did you not understand?

But you need certain words. You need a litany to be spoken. Why is that? Certainly no discussion has actually happened here. Why are you demanding the discussion happen in the context of your specific terms? You seem to be working within a very rigid orthodoxy.

[VanillaRhapsody]

119. the first stage of recovery is acceptance...

you haven't done that yet.....and THIS is why the problem STILL exists. Why can't you understand that?

Being born White and male has its advantages in this world....thus White male privilege. And you cannot even speak the words...THAT in itself speaks volumes.

Oh and "the truth shall set you FREE!" And you are choking on JUST the words...

[rrneck]

120. In your estimation.

What proof would you require? And for that matter, who are you to demand proof of anything? For whom do you speak? By whose authority do you demand proof?

You just can't have the conversation on any terms other than your own. Or more likely you don't want to have a conversation at all, so you raise the bar into the stratosphere of ideological purity to avoid your own denial.

[VanillaRhapsody]

130. I require someone who "claims" to have a solution

to admit that the problem exists...

Say that White male privilege exists.....but for some reason you just CAN'T do that can you? It is THIS fact that proves you DON'T have any solutions...

[rrneck]

132. Propose a cure for the problem. ntt

[rrneck]

121. I offered a solution in the OP.

You're just being obtuse.

[VanillaRhapsody]

131. You cannot have a solution to a problem before you admit that there is one....

that is simple "cognitive" behavioral therapy...

George Bush doesn't believe he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth either....doesn't mean he wasn't does it?

[rrneck]

133. Produce your cure for the problem.

Or continue to obfuscate if you like. I like it when people tell me what I believe and don't believe.

[VanillaRhapsody]

137. I never professed to have the solution....unlike certain White men who deny White Male Privilege

but who seem to think they have a solution for a problem they do not admit exists!

[rrneck]

138. I'm not surprised.

So I've done more about the problem than you.

[Niceguy1]

45. being divisive

Nt going to solve it , either

[VanillaRhapsody]

107. Acceptance.....thats even part of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy...

look it up....its hardly divisive....

Until White males accept that White male privilege exists..... "they" cannot fix it.

[quinnox]

2. ok, step 3 doesn't sound so bad all of a sudden

[rrneck]

4. It's my fave.

It seems to me that working on a common goal greases the skids for all concerned much better than telling people how they are supposed to feel.

[VanillaRhapsody]

7. wow....the irony.....

[rrneck]

8. Sooooo,

you got nothing.

[VanillaRhapsody]

12. No you said it all with that statement quite well...

wow....just wow....

"telling people how to feel" Those poor poor White male feelings are being hurt because someone has the NERVE to tell them HOW to feel..........wow just wow...

[rrneck]

14. How do you plan to make them feel otherwise? nt

[BainsBane]

17. Actually they had the nerve to tell white men how they as people of color feel

That is the outrage.

[rrneck]

30. How do you plan to make "them" feel otherwise? nt

[BainsBane]

31. Why is up to me to make anyone "feel otherwise'?

Last edited Mon May 12, 2014, 11:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Why would I want to? I'm not sure what you are saying. You think I'm supposed to make people of color not feel racism? No, what I am saying is why do you insist on mocking their concerns? Why do you find it so objectionable that they speak about an issue that concerns them on a website for the Democratic Party, when they are the single most reliable Democratic voting block? Why must their speech be silenced to appease you?

[rrneck]

35. Why do you not want to end privilage?

Racism is all about hating people of another race. How do you plan to make racists not be racists?

[VanillaRhapsody]

110. why do you not want to accept that you HAVE White male privilege?

that is the better question....

No one is calling you a racist by saying "White male privilege" exists....

[rrneck]

112. I offered a "cure" in the OP.

What part of the word "cure" confuses you?

It's very interesting. You seem to need to hear some kind of confession expressed in specific terms. Is there some liturgy I need to brush up on?

[VanillaRhapsody]

109. true that Bainsbane...true that!

and it makes them uncomfortable to KNOW that....

[etherealtruth]

10. I am really disappointed that you posted this (and yes, I realize that you d/won't care)

You are a sometimes glib poster, often on the other side of many issues from me .... but, I am very surprised that you would post this.

I realize that you have a sometimes contentious relationship with some prolific posters ... but I really am shocked that you would post something that w/could be viewed as patently disrespectful to many of our African American posters.

I am hoping this is not a shot at them by intent (at least I hope it is not), but the disrespect is aimed in their direction. We have an ever narrowing demographic here. Is the intent to make people of color feel unwelcome? In your case I have not thought so (I hope I am not wrong)

I am honestly sadly surprised by this post (again I realize you won't give a rats @ss)

[rrneck]

13. Really?

There is nothing disrespectful about working, really working, with other people. I am guessing that you assume my use of the word "work" as some sort of attitude adjustment to conform to ideology. It doesn't. It means what the vast majority of people think when the see the word. It means work.

You right. I don't give a rats ass about petty affectations and ideologies worn as social plumage. Here's a little experiment you might like to try. Open Firefox and go to any of those privilege threads. Hit "Control F" and search for the word "union". I've found that in all these flaming discussions about inequality in the workplace nobody seems to remember the concept of collective bargaining. A lot of good people on the left died for it and it barely gets a mention around here now.

I am suggesting that the best thing for human beings of any color to do is to actually try and accomplish a shared goal. Build a house. Dig a ditch. Plow a field. Trade goods. That's how humans learn to get along. The very worst way to get people to treat each other fairly is to tell others how they are supposed to feel and excoriate them if they don't seem to do so to your satisfaction.

You want to be a policy guru? Find a way for people to work together for their mutual benefit and convince them to participate. It works a lot better than trying to make them feel guilty, even if they are a bunch of assholes.

[etherealtruth]

15. This would have been a good OP

My original perceptions of your postings were wrong ... not the first time and won't be the last time. I will no longer be disappointed.

I hope your OP brings about the spirit of cooperation and inspires others to work toward a common goal that you claim to wish to inspire. It would be nice to be wrong about the OP, too.

[rrneck]

16. Thank you.

And it was a quickly written OP, so misunderstanding is no surprise. It seems I write 'em either too short or too long.

[Shandris]

18. Just responding to say thank you for this excellent post.

"Social plumage". Now -that- one is worth stealing. And reflecting on.

Often.

[rrneck]

33. You're welcome.

Feel free to use it all you want.

[BainsBane]

21. Because far less of the population is unionized

means it's okay to trivialize the concerns of people of color? How does that work exactly?

Your problem with your concept of a shared goal is that it's your goal entirely. Their even raising issues that concern them is objectionable to you. When you can't even bear to allow them to speak, to choose their own words, you make impossible such work toward shared goals.

Did it ever occur to you that members might have a discussion that wasn't entirely about you? Why do you feel compelled to tell African Americans certain words are off limits? "Trying to make you feel guilty." The discussion of privilege is an effort to examine the cultural racism that plays out in our daily lives, that discriminates against some and privileges others.

Your response here shows you have no interest in combating privilege. Instead, it appears etherealtruth's fears were correct about the purpose of this thread.

It's not enough that most of the African American and other members of color have left this site due to the racism they experience. You need to make clear you see so little value in this issue that is important to those who remain, you must disparage the issue. If you don't like the term white privilege, don't use it. If you don't care about the issue, don't read the threads. Trash them, either by keyword or manually, but to mock the concerns of people who experience racism is offensive. I wish I could say I share the other poster's surprise in this OP. Sadly, I do not.

For those interested in the subject matter, this website makes some interesting points about how to "check privilege," meaning treat people of color and members of other subaltern groups, like women or LGBT Americans, with respect.
http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/17004629556/white-privilege-now-what-other-such-fallacies

[rrneck]

23. Word salad.

But a dandy tantrum.

Your problem with your concept of a shared goal is that it's your goal entirely.

Correct. That's why it's called cooperation.

Did it ever occur to you that members might have a discussion that wasn't entirely about you?

Sure. How 'bout you?

Why do you feel compelled to tell African Americans certain words are off limits?

Never happened.

----------------

And the rest is, well, telling me how I feel.

[Sheldon Cooper]

34. Word salad?

*snort*

?w=300&h=200

[rrneck]

36. At least I can express myself without hotlinking other people's graphics. nt

[Sheldon Cooper]

102. Ooh rush me to the burn unit!

[rrneck]

104. Oh, I think you'll make it all right.

Your credibility, not so much.

Do you have anything of substance to add?

[Sheldon Cooper]

122. Substance?

Pretty funny request from the guy who thinks the answer to racism is to dig a ditch and then drink beer. I'm afraid I just can't top that when it comes to substance. You totally win!

[rrneck]

124. You know what's really fun?

It's to go back and read these threads in their entirety, as they were little narratives. You get to see who is trying to make progress and who is trying to stymie it. It's fun to go back and read who is actually thinking and who is speaking in second hand slogans and canned boilerplate.

You should try it sometime. You might learn something.

[Sheldon Cooper]

126. Word salad!

[rrneck]

128. You're not the only one that read it. nt

[BainsBane]

50. That is precisely what you have done.

In mocking this issue and insisting there is something illegitimate about using the term white privilege.

You're right. I don't give a rats ass about petty affectations and ideologies worn as social plumage . . A lot of good people on the left died for it and it barely gets a mention around here now.

What you care about matters. What members of color care about is social plumage.

I am suggesting that the best thing for human beings of any color to do is to actually try and accomplish a shared goal. Build a house. Dig a ditch. Plow a field. Trade goods. That's how humans learn to get along.

It's not enough to tell those members what words they should use, but now you tell them what they should do. You may care about ditches, fields, and unions. They care about racism. You aren't going to be involved in any shared goal as long as you continue to insult their concerns as "social plumage."

The very worst way to get people to treat each other fairly is to tell others how they are supposed to feel and excoriate them if they don't seem to do so to your satisfaction.

None of this is about excoriating anyone. My OP was written so even a child could understand it, and I clearly made the point the term was not an attack. You continue to feel the entire issue is all about blaming you because you refuse to consider the existence of speech about which you are not at its center. The discussion of white privilege is about understanding daily racism and treating members of subaltern groups with respect, as the website I linked to demonstrates.

Istrongblack man speaks to the very issue of shared goals here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4925485

[rrneck]

53. What OP? nt

[BainsBane]

70. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024941179

[rrneck]

71. Oh yeah. I saw it but I didn't read it.

Why would you assume this OP had anything to do with yours? How many discussions have been had about the issue in the last week or so? But for some reason you thought I was responding to you. Interesting.

So what solution do you have for all the obvious problems you listed in your OP?

[BainsBane]

74. I don't assume it had to do with mine

It is about the same subject. I said your assumption that it is about excoriating you is wrong. That is not what people mean when they use the term white privilege. I figured you had probably seen the thread because it had so many views, but I at no point thought your thread was about mine.

Here is the problem, if you refuse to acknowledge the myriad of ways racism affects society, there is no way to combat the problem. Acknowledging white privilege is one way of starting to think about the ways in which African Americans are subject to daily discrimination that we are not, and that we may even play an unconscious role in perpetuation it. Racism is more than the Klan, the GOP, and the police. We all are influenced by racist messages that teach us to devalue people of color. Racism does not exist entirely outside of us. That is not to say you are responsible for a legacy of slavery and Jim Crow, but you are responsible for your own actions. If you refuse to consider they can be influenced by racism in anyway, how can you address them? Nothing goes away by ignoring it.

If you insist on making these discussions about your feelings rather than the experiences of those subject to racism, it signals to people of color that you don't value them. They of course are used to it. They experience it every single day. But why must they experience it on a site that is supposed to be for liberals? Why is it that so many members of color have felt they were unwelcome here? Don't you think that is problematic?

Diversity is not simply accepting members of subaltern groups as long as they act and think like you. It's accepting them as they are, including the ways in which they see the world differently from white people. Ultimately, it's about respect and not expecting people to conform to your goals, understanding that their experiences may mean they see the world somewhat differently from you. Rather than maligning those ideas, read them, reflect on them, and seek to understand what those members are talking about. You might want to read some threads in the African American group, though the most active posters there have been participating in these GD threads as well. Try to understand how racism feels to them rather than insisting those feelings are "social plumage." Those views come as a result of their daily lives, lives filled with a continual experience of racism that you and I have never experienced. That bullshit we don't have to deal with makes a big difference in our lives, just as the discrimination they face makes a huge difference in theirs.

[rrneck]

79. That's just more word salad.

If you're more comfortable telling people how they feel that's okay, but it doesn't do much to actually solve the problem.

What solution do you offer to change people's feelings about others?

[BainsBane]

87. Again, it's about listening to those who experience racism

No one changes anyone's feelings. What a concept. I'm simply suggesting you be respectful rather than dismissive of the concerns of the few posters of colors that remain on this site. Moreover, I don't see why I should care about your feelings when you can't bring yourself to as much as read the views of those subject to racism.

I've tried to explain things as carefully as I can, and you continue to be dismissive by calling my comments world salad, which is to say you don't care enough to understand. We have no common goals to work toward. My goals involve social justice, not your ego or your feelings. I have wasted far too much time talking to you, time I will never get back.

[rrneck]

91. I cared enough to suggest a solution.

That's more than you've done.

If there is no way to change anyone's feelings, why are we having this conversation? Do you really think those who do not recognize white privilege are incorrigibly obtuse and beyond redemption? If you believe that, why do you even want to discuss the issue at all?

But if you think it is possible to change people's feelings we would all like to hear how. If not, by all means continue your critique of my affect. I think it's fascinating that the only discussion that you will allow will be on your terms. Unless one expresses sufficient enthusiasm using the terminology of your orthodoxy they are heretics.

[BainsBane]

95. Jesus. Therapy 101

Feelings just are. People can change their own feelings over time by changing their thoughts, expanding their views, listening to people whose experiences are different from their own. I did suggest a solution. I suggested you read the posts in the African American group to get a sense of their views. I explained to you what the purpose of reflecting on white privilege is to address the everyday forms of racism. You rejected all that and called it word salad. No one can change if they refuse to pay attention to consider the experiences of the rest of humanity.

You aren't talking about solutions. You are talking about forcing people to keep their mouths shut about racism and haul rocks because you want them to. I linked to 1strongblackman's post, which you must not have read. For some bizarre reason, he doesn't consider doing what guys like you tell him to as working together. That sounds a lot like working for someone, not with them.

Obviously you don't want to discuss anything but your feelings. You've made that perfectly clear. Hence the waste of time.

I want to be clear. I do not know nor have ever cared whether you use the term white privilege. What I don't like is posts that mock the concerns of the few remaining posters of color on this site. I don't want them to leave so that DU becomes a whites' only community.

This is so far beyond the terminology you use. You reject the importance of the life experiences of those subject to racism and refer to their concerns as "crying and moaning." This is supposed to be a Democratic website. That is not a position in keeping with a party that is majority people of color and women. However, there is nothing I can do about that. You are free to be exactly what you want to be, but you can't force me to tolerate it.

[rrneck]

98. That's just more word salad.

How better to share the experiences of others than by working along side them toward a common goal?

Unless of course you're interested in dividing the entire human race into a set of binary ideologies for the pleasure of excoriating others from your position of moral certitude? Unless others approach the issue the way you want you are being dismissed, insulted, trivialized and ignored. If others do not show the same passion and ideological orientation as you they are heretics. Do you realize that you spend a lot of time demanding people engage in self reflection? You seem to spend a lot of time telling people how you have explained how they are supposed to think about your opinion.

Don't you find it strange that you are arguing against the concept of cooperation? Why would anyone do that on a political board? Do you not know about coalition building?

[R B Garr]

134. Ah, there you have it. The privileged will determine how, why, when and where coalitions

are built. The rest of the time, you'll just be dismissive, which seems to be the goal more often than not. Hmmmm.

[rrneck]

136. You might read the OP again.

It wasn't very specific. In fact, there has been precious little specificity anywhere in this discussion. We can't seem to get beyond the semantics surrounding discussing the discussion.

Do you have a solution for the problem?

[Eleanors38]

88. Attack, attack, attack. Haven't changed a bit. So very obvious

over the years: Attribute to others what they did not say or even imply.

Second verse same as the first.

[BainsBane]

90. Sorry, I should busy myself with attacking

people of color instead by referring to concerns about racism as "whining and moaning" and their articulation of white privilege as "social plumage." Sometimes I get uppity and forget my place. It truly is terrible of me to criticize someone who considers his own feelings the most important aspect of this discussion about white privilege and racism.

[Eleanors38]

94. Do you have any purpose with WP beyond checking?

[BainsBane]

96. My issue is with racism

and respect for the views of people of color, especially those on DU. I have an interest in seeing the few remaining posters of color stay on DU so that it doesn't become a white only online community. It is already far too close to that, and thus quite different from the demographic of the Democratic Party.

I've been very clear about my views on the issue. My journal contains some of those posts if you decide you are interested.

[Eleanors38]

97. And how do you propose to keep the "remaining posters of color" in DU?

[BainsBane]

100. Refraining from telling them they shouldn't use words

or discuss issues that some white posters don't like. It might also help to refrain from calling grievances about racism "whining and moaning." If more people decided those posters mattered enough to read their posts and reflect on their views--rather than making the issue all about them--that would help.

It would also help if people quit telling African Americans what they should do to overcome racism, how they should talk about racism, or that racism will go away if people simply keep quiet about it. It doesn't help that AAs are told they should be "honored" by racist meals of friend chicken and watermelon. I would prefer to see people refrain from mocking the concerns of those members. I saw one poster tell an AA member she was "out of her element" when she tried to join a thread someone posted wishing away categories of race, the very terms people of color use to describe themselves. They are so used to that kind of treatment, that AA poster actually said she should have know better than to try to join the discussion. Think about that for a minute.

If people stopped claiming that posts acknowledging the existence of white privilege constituted flamebait (while one poster tonight insisted his own denouncing the concept did not constitute flamebait) or that racism is a "settled issue" and shouldn't be discussed on this site. All those are ways in which the perspectives and lives of people of color are delegtimated, and it pisses me off. Just because this site is largely made up of white retirees doesn't mean the rest of us, which includes feminists, don't count or that are concerns amount to flamebait or trolling. The kind of privilege that is particularly destructive on DU is the kind that makes some feel entitled to denounce such discussions as inappropriate for this site, while assuming that what they have to say stands in stark contrast as being entirely legitimate.

[Eleanors38]

127. There are people who question the use of "white privilege."

Last edited Tue May 13, 2014, 12:17 PM - Edit history (1)

Should they cease or somehow be made to cease discussing the term? There are people who argue with (presumably) blacks about terms (or not) of race. Should they not be able to have a say?

There are DUers who think the issue of "white privilege" has become flamebait, trolling and not appropriate. What do you do about them? Short of cutting them off, their presence has to be dealt with. I would suggest the discussions of WP have topped off regarding any constructive course of action, because it offers no course if action on a site which purports to be about pragmatic political solutions.

For some 50yrs we "retirees" have heard of and discussed "institutional racism," "privilege," and now "white privilege." Most white progressive folk recognize their advantage. We also recognize "white guilt" and its shaming potential. The difference is now many white folk have a propensity to resist discussion and terms which rely on guilt, shame, and yes, "delegitimizing" opinions if they can be tagged or "checked" as "white privilege." The discussion rings of times past, and has become static.

[rrneck]

99. Complaining for the sake of complaining is whining and moaning.

And wrapping oneself in the travails of others for their own aggrandizement is social plumage.

[BainsBane]

101. Then there is this approach

!


You sure do a lot of complaining for someone who condemns people of color for "complaining for the sake of complaining." That Trayvon just won't shut up. How dare he?!

[rrneck]

114. What makes you think I am referring to an entire ethnic group?

Or for that matter any ethnic group in particular? You keep assuming that I'm telling people of color what to do. I find it fascinating that I could propose a non ethnocentric solution employed by people for the entire history of the human race and for some reason that is insulting, minimizing, and trivializing. You should ask yourself exactly what is really being trivialized.

I referred to a specific type of behavior not confined to any group of people at all, but exhibited by anyone who would rather talk than work toward a solution.

Again of course we see you accusing others of condemning an entire ethnicity in absolutist terms. Yours is the rankest sort of divisive rhetoric.

[gollygee]

24. People can't talk about privilege unless they also talk about unions?

They are different issues. I think both are very important but a thread on either one is not necessarily going to have discussion of the other. Are there any other discussions you think should be required to include other issues?

[rrneck]

29. Talk about whatever you want.

The OP suggests that the best thing is to find a worthy goal and work along side somebody who, we can assume, also considers it a worthy goal. What it does not is suggest we have a conversation about a conversation about a perception of a word under certain specific circumstances.

Some people will say, "Okay, I'm down." and others will wonder if it fits in with their agenda. The former makes friends, the latter makes enemies.

[kwassa]

38. You suggest that understanding white privilege is not a worthy goal.

I think that is incorrect.

[rrneck]

39. There is no such suggestion.

It just wasn't the suggestion you were looking for.

[kwassa]

48. Your OP exists only in relationship to the white privilege OPs.

I don't discount your viewpoint, but I think that yours does not negate the other. You think you are suggesting a larger goal, which indeed is a true goal, but a discussion of white privilege doesn't negate that goal.

[rrneck]

52. Nobody said it negated anything.

But I don't think I've seen any actual solution offered in any of the other threads. You know, something we could see in the real world. I might have missed them, but they all seem to be an exercise in in-group and out-group creation.

Talk all you want, but talk is cheap.

[kwassa]

54. We are merely trying to get the idea that white privilege exists.

That is being strongly denied on this forum.

We can't get to a solution for a problem that people denies the existence of. In that case, there is no problem.

[rrneck]

56. Fine. Go for it.

Nobody is stopping you. Why do you not want to hear a solution offered?

[kwassa]

58. Part of the solution is to talk about privilege.

Nothing should be off the table of discussion.

The idea about talking about white privilege is that almost all white people don't recognize that they have certain powers that others in our society don't have, simply by the luckof being white.

Do you think we shouldn't discuss it, and discuss it in public?

[rrneck]

60. Discuss it all you want.

Talk is cheap, but I don't think telling assholes they are assholes will make them not be assholes any more.

I'd have to go back and look, but hasn't the most effective civil rights legislation enacted in this country basically forced people to mix and work together?

I think it is comforting to point out the mistakes of others, especially when we know we are right. There is nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but I start to scratch my head when a solution is offered it is seen as interference with discussion of the problem.

[kwassa]

64. Talking about white privilege is not calling anyone an asshole.

That is a central misunderstanding of the concept. No one is being maligned by this. It is not about a lack of action on anyone's part.

It is more like being born at least slightly rich.

[rrneck]

66. I don't think there's much of a jump

from oblivious and insensitive to asshole. Would you want anyone to accuse you of such?

[kwassa]

68. There is ignorance and there is knowledge.

All of us are ignorant of many things.

All of us, ideally, are educable.

But if one is ignorant and refuses education, or even the attempt of informing themselves, how long should they be indulged?

[rrneck]

69. I think there is ignorance and there is stupidity.

Stupidity is self inflicted ignorance.

And, as Ron White famously said, you can't fix stupid. Now, people who have a vested interest in racism are stupid. They can't be fixed. They can only be controlled. People who may be racist or hold racist ideas and not know it can be educated. And I expect most people that hold racist ideas do so out of a need for little more than social plumage themselves or have simply not given the issue any serious thought. Given a choice between a better life and their racism, they would choose a better life.

I don't think that the people who might be the most easily changed would benefit from being lectured about how much better they have it while they are struggling as well. Belittling people's accomplishments is no way to teach them anything. It's certainly no way to bring them to your side.

Imagine yourself on a desert island with someone who hates you with visceral intensity. You need each other to survive. You need him, he needs you. Do you think either one of you will survive if you spend your time telling him how stupid he is? We are on that island right now. This country and the entire species is on a precipice. We will survive together or fall separately.

[kwassa]

78. You assume the alienation. This is where I part from your view.

I have no disagreement otherwise.

I am a school teacher, in a public school system of about 11,000 teachers. We are in an incredibly diverse student population that really represents the world population in many ways. Roughly 150,000 students.

As many as 90 different nations in our local schools.

We also have ongoing years of diversity training in our schools. The current phase, and next year, focus on white privilege.

I've never heard a single complaint on the white privilege training, and people don't hide their opinions in my school. They don't hesitate.

In fact, DU is the first place I have ever heard the idea that the notion of white privilege is somehow wrong.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

84. Isn't it mind boggling =

In fact, DU is the first place I have ever heard the idea that the notion of white privilege is somehow wrong.

[rrneck]

85. Well, like I say I haven't seen it. But I don't read every thread.

Basically what you've got here is a train station with a revolving door.

You know what I remember most from my seventh grade American History text? Images of slave ships and how people were crammed into them.

If you want to focus on white privilege that's fine. But you want to know what I think will do the most good? Simple proximity. Just kids being around kids. They all have the same goal - getting an education. And there's nothing like a shared objective to make people colorblind.

[Dorian Gray]

103. I don't disagree with your OP

bigger goals and working together is a fine way to solve problems. Look at the Communist and the KMT in 1930s China.

BUT... you keep repeating "talk is cheap." That's not true, either. Discussions about equality and privilege can raise awareness. Holding your ears while repeating "talk is cheap" over and over again isn't doing anything to raise understanding. And why would anyone want to work with you toward a common goal if they think you don't care about what they have to say.

[rrneck]

105. Talk is cheap if it's only talk.

Have you noticed that nobody has mentioned any specific goal yet? If they did I didn't see it.

[Dorian Gray]

123. Goal: A greater understanding about how people feel.

That's usually a big goal when people discuss issues.

It might not be YOUR goal. Repeating "talk is cheap" over and over again doesn't make it true.

[rrneck]

125. I disagree.

Understanding is a means, not an end. Justice is the goal.

[Dorian Gray]

129. I disagree

People can make anything they want their goal. Just because understanding isn't your goal, it may be other people's goal.

I don't see how you can say with authority that understanding is a means, not an end. And since when did a goal have to equal being an end?


Just because you are not satisfied by said goal doesn't mean that it's not worthwhile for other people.

[rrneck]

135. Empathy is a powerful incentive.

Without action empathy is little more than an exercise in self congratulation.

I should clarify since this thread has devolved into an exercise in ideological semantics. Action does not mean the act of feeling. It means something that happens in the real world that can be verified empirically. Justice, in this context, means the equitable distribution of resources. Money.

Empathy can be faked. The world is full of people that will empathize all day long as long as it doesn't cost them any money. If all you want is for people to say the right words you will be richly rewarded but poorly paid. Hence the phrase, "talk is cheap".

And since talk is cheap, it is a wonderful product with a huge profit margin. Are you familiar with Repressive desublimation? I first read about it here.

By offering instantaneous, rather than mediated gratifications,[4] repressive desublimation was considered by Marcuse to remove the energies otherwise available for a social critique; and thus to function as a conservative force under the guise of liberation.

As I recall, the notion of emotions as an impetus for rational action is about twenty five hundred years old. All I have done in the OP is to offer another way to enter a sort of feedback loop. Why should we assume that empathy is the only way to achieve social justice? Why do have to empathize first before anything else can happen?

Empathy is very important in liberal ideology, and for good reason. But what happens if we turn ideology, and it's supporting emphasis on nurture, into an object in itself rather than a means to an end? It appears that we get ideological rigidity and partisan witch hunts. The OP was very nonspecific, and yet how many have assumed that it was a denial of any other means toward social justice?

And here's another old quote.

Assume a virtue if you have it not.

[kwassa]

37. Bingo! The entire problem with this OP.

[rrneck]

40. You got a problem with people working together? nt

[kwassa]

46. Working together isn't the issue.

The issue is the denial that white privilege exists.

[rrneck]

47. If you figure out how to get people to work together on a common goal

it won't exist.

[kwassa]

49. Fine, but you have to admit it exists before you can fix it.

[rrneck]

51. Everyone knows it exists.

Anyone who denies it is either lying or been living under a rock for a hundred years.

[kwassa]

55. Not according to a number of posters on DU.

[rrneck]

57. Whatever you say.

I haven't seen it, but I don't know every damn thing.

Do you think it is possible to equate denial with incomplete agreement?

[kwassa]

61. I'm not getting the sense that those with incomplete agreement ..

have even studied the argument.

Because their disagreements with white privilege have nothing to do with what is being asserted. That is what is alarming.

If they had an informed disagreement, that would be different, of course.

[rrneck]

63. Again, whatever you say.

At this point neither of us knows what we are talking about. If you'd like to post some links or some comments made by others we could get some traction.

[pipi_k]

59. This, I think...

The very worst way to get people to treat each other fairly is to tell others how they are supposed to feel and excoriate them if they don't seem to do so to your satisfaction.

is probably something not everyone is going to understand


And there are times when I think that some people who yell the loudest about this or that issue don't really want it to go away. Especially when it looks like they're mainly just spinning their wheels, thinking they're Doing Good or Changing Our World doing things that aren't going to amount to much more than a pisshole in a snowbank at the end of the day.

People want to end racism? OK, you don't do that by pointing your finger at them when they tell a racist joke. You do it by putting people together so they see for themselves that we're all just human, with the same fears and needs and hopes and dreams. Have them work together to accomplish a common goal, and watch how things change then. Or maybe not. I mean, not everyone is going to get along on a personal level, but there's a real good chance that people will see that this or that person of a different race is just like himself in the long run.

One thing that always sort of turns my stomach in a way...is when people get on their high horses and brag about what they've done to save the world. "Look at MEEEEE!!!!! This is what I did!!! If you didn't do the same thing, then you're a nothing. In fact, you're part of the problem!!!"

Like you pointed out...you don't get cooperation from people by trying to make them feel like shit.


And here's the thing about people doing good in the world...I would rather find out by accident that someone is doing good things in the world than by self-righteous advertising.

I have a lot of respect for people who quietly go about their business of trying to help others without having a need to wear their actions like a badge of honor for other people to prostrate themselves in front of.

[rrneck]

62. Spoken more eloquently than I ever could. nt

[1000words]

75. Well said.

[Eleanors38]

93. Thank you. The problem with the "white privilege"

Checking business is that it goes no where in terms of change. Is there white privilege? Yes. What next? Is there a strategy? A goal? A purpose? Frankly, those who pursue so aggressively this "checking" idea have offered Nothing.

[Supersedeas]

67. social plumage

[razo99]

139. work

Some theories are misleading, while others have become popular to such an extent that they became guidelines to some people. In this article, we’re going to discuss some of the myths that are widespread to adjust and correct the path of productivity.
If you like to read about work hacks and what is real and what is fake read this article you will find many good stuff

[1000words]

19. Tsk, tsk ... Are you forgetting something?

[rrneck]

25. LOL! Damn, I always forget that. nt

[nomorenomore08]

20. I doubt there are any simple solutions, in reality. But thank you for trying at least. n/t

[rrneck]

27. You're welcome.

There will be no solutions here. We aren't doing anything here but talking. Solutions come from actually doing something.

[nomorenomore08]

28. I just wish more white people would acknowledge what, for PoC, are self-evident facts of life.

Same goes for men and women, heteros and LGBT folks, etc.

[rrneck]

32. Yanno, everybody's got a story.

We can cry and moan about how much somebody dislikes us all day long, but demanding they stop disliking us will only make them dislike us more. If there is a way to legislate equality I'm all for it. But there is no way to legislate people's feelings, nor is there any need to.

In the end people in proximity of each other working together on something, anything, will heal the wounds.

[nomorenomore08]

41. It's not even about individual "dislike," although that certainly does play a role.

Individual prejudice and systemic racism are sort of two different things, but both need to be dealt with.

[rrneck]

42. Systemic racism can be dealt with

and has been done so. I am sure more can happen.

Individual prejudice has to be dealt with individually, and if we can get that done systemic racism won't be a problem.

[nomorenomore08]

43. Maybe. I certainly hope so. n/t

[BainsBane]

89. No, they won't

Comments like those only inflame wounds and deepen the divide. No person of color is going to work with someone who considers concerns about racism to be crying and moaning.

[rrneck]

92. Do you have a solution to suggest? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. How about go sit in courtroom and testify

Be a character witness for people of color. How about volunteering to tutor in the public school system. What about donating time to the local food bank?

[rrneck]

26. Good ideas all.

Along with those activities there is an element of egoism. We can say to ourselves, "Look, I'm making a difference". It's not bad or wrong and it's certainly helpful, but it an be seductive sort of good as well.

But what if we shared an activity with someone of another race and the activity wasn't about race? What if nobody would ever know or care that we participated or helped anyone? That's a kind of color blindness that brings tangible results we can be proud of without the danger of affectation. It's also what most people call working for a living.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

72. You have said some good things in this thread and then

you have said some navel gazing things in this thread. Do you want to be a man of action or do you want to sit in your ivory tower and ponder the way it should be?

Do you even know any black people? Sounds like you want to get to the finish line without taking the first step needed to start the journey.

But what if we shared an activity with someone of another race and the activity wasn't about race?

I do that daily. I work for a living. The place where I work has more blacks than it does whites. Guess what, it ain't about race. it is about getting the job done.

What if nobody would ever know or care that we participated or helped anyone?

I don't care if nobody/anybody knows.

*I* know.
*I* am the one that has to live with me.
I couldn't live with myself if *I* didn't do these things.



You have to live with yourself. If you are content with yourself the way you are then fine continue to Stagnate.
Enjoy inertia.
Go on and mildew.

[rrneck]

73. Lots of assumptions. I hope you enjoyed them. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

76. I assumed nothing. I asked you straight out. and I said IF and Then. =

I will take some small comfort that I think I saw a very small flicker of light for a brief moment. I gave you some good INCLUSIVE ideas. Do with them what you will. It is up to you.

Have a good night rrneck.

[rrneck]

77. I guess you mean "do I even know any black people".

Did you even notice you made my point for me? "Guess what, it ain't about race. it is about getting the job done."

Everything said here is navel gazing. Resumes on an anonymous message board are absurd. For some reason merely suggesting a solution for a problem is considered an infringement of - something. You're giving me a hard time while you're agreeing with me.

What do I have to do to make you happy? What does it take? What are the right words? I offered a simple observation about cooperation between people with which anyone could agree, but how much agreement happened? And who voiced the most vociferous objections?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

80. I did not realize you were merely pontificating and making an observation on the state of things.

you talk down to people and you are not the only one doing it in this thread.


and honestly, I thought you were asking for advice in your OP.


As far as agreeing with you goes ... looks like you and pippi are pretty well on the same page.

As for the rest of your questions. Figure them out yourself.

You dig and dig and dig.

I am not helping you dig your hole. Dig it yourself. When you figure out that you are in a hole maybe you will quit digging.

[rrneck]

82. You thought I was asking for advice?

I was doing exactly what I've been doing since I joined DU. I am injecting reality into the discussion. No more, no less. I did it in the gungeon and now I'm doing it in GD. You liked it fine in the gungeon. Now, not so much.

It was a fairly simple proposition. So simple I didn't think it needed a boatload of exposition. People working together toward a common goal learn to get along through shared interest. It's incredibly obvious. And yet, just look at this thread. Has anybody even tried to suggest some sort of common goal to bring people together? Nope. It's just another DU turf war shitfest.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

83. and YOU started it. Your past preceded you.

Has anybody even tried to suggest some sort of common goal to bring people together?

I thought I did.

It starts with (the general you, here)you.

It starts with me.

I do my part in my neck of the woods.

What are you doing in yours?

[rrneck]

86. The same thing.

Of course I don't live in the south any more so in my neck of the woods I'm the minority.

[Red_Oak]

44. To get through the 43 threads on the same topic..

.. I suggest something stronger might be required.

Try the Glenlivet...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

81. welcome to DU. eom

[Raine1967]

65. Not a cure, but a fine start.

Especially #2.

I would amend it, though: Apply yourself to a task that you have no idea about, but you want to help.

in other words: get really uncomfortable. That is a real cure for privilege.

(Then drink beer)

Don't donate time to people you think need help. Donate time to something you don't know about. Donate time to helping people get out of a place where they need help.