The Mall Is Dead, And It's Taking Sbarro With It

[edhopper]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/07/sbarro-bankruptcy_n_4913475.html?ir=Business

Sbarro is dealing with two challenges. First, customers appear to be cooling to pizza restaurants. Sales at U.S. pizza stores inched up from $36 billion in 2008 to just $38.3 billion in 2013, according to data compiled by EuroMonitor International. ....

That’s because most of its stores are in malls, places Americans don’t really go any more. There’s even a whole blog, deadmalls.com, dedicated to our waning interest in those palaces of consumerism. Other restaurant chains that primarily operate in malls, like Hot Dog on a Stick, are suffering, too.

So what is going on, the Mall was touted as being the new Town Square where people went to hang out. They have been overbuilt and the Magnet stores have lost their appeal, but where do people hang out now. Online? Don't people still go out and get together? What do people see with this changing dynamic?


(About the Pizza, I live in NY and Pizza is doing fine, in fact there has been a boon in upscale personal pizza restaurants that are for the most part really good.
I think this article is referring to the fast food pizza chains, well they are utter crap and good riddance, maybe that will pave the way for some Mom and Pop Pizza places where people can experience real pizza.
Not what my post is about, but couldn't resist putting in my 2 cents)

[Agschmid]

1. The traditional mall is a dying breed.

The lifestyle center will take its place but you will certainly see a decrease in overall retail square footage in the next few years.

[BainsBane]

3. What is a lifestyle center?

[Agschmid]

6. This...

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2005/04/the_mall_goes_undercover.html

Like insecure teenagers, malls keep changing their style. They are ripping away their roofs and drywalled corridors; adding open-air plazas, sidewalks, and street-side parking; and rechristening themselves "lifestyle centers." This new look may remind you of something: a vibrant urban street. Yet, while these new malls may appear to be public space, they're not public at all—at least if you want to do anything but shop. They represent a bait-and-switch routine on the part of developers, one that exchanges the public realm for the commercial one. They're also enormously successful—by the most recent count, there are about 130 lifestyle centers scattered around the country. In 2006, New York City will get its very first.

On a recent Saturday, in search of the future, I visited a lifestyle center on the edge of Phoenix called the Desert Ridge Marketplace. Parking my rented Chevy in front of a big-box emporium called Barbeques Galore, I walked through the arched portals that decorate the marketplace entrance. Inside, there were restaurants and stores lining a winding and narrow outdoor pedestrian street that opened up onto a series of little plazas. Padded wicker chairs were strewn about in a studied, casual way, and a huge fieldstone fireplace had benches built into it for those cool desert nights. This was a delightful place for a Frappuccino.

[sufrommich]

11. I can't imagine that concept ever being successful

in northern climes,especially with winters like this one.

[Agschmid]

13. You know it's crazy but it is!

Legacy Place in Dedham Mass is a great example, also there is a new outlet mall in NH which has the same set up called Merrimack Premium Outlets.

http://www.legacyplace.com
http://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlets/outlet.asp?id=101

[sufrommich]

22. How do those stores do compared to inclosed malls

in the winter? I look at that and imagine what a mess every store entrance would be when it snows. I think the real problem with malls today is that they are indistinguishable from every other mall across the country,they're all basically the same mall now.

[Agschmid]

26. Financially they still do well.

Traffic counts which are a measure of retail health are down but less deteriorated than traditional malls. Obviously during the holiday peak they still do well, but the real prize is the business pick up in the summer. Traditional malls struggle as the weather gets nicer but these malls are outside so they get better crowds who can "enjoy the weather, but still shop".

From SIMON...

The Company's core fundamentals continue to demonstrate strength as
evidenced by growth in operating metrics for all three domestic business
platforms:


As of As of
June 30, 2005 June 30, 2004 Increase
Occupancy
Regional Malls(1) 92.2% 91.3% 90 basis points
Premium Outlet(R) Centers(2) 99.2% 98.0%(3) 120 basis points
Community/Lifestyle Centers(2) 91.5% 91.5% No change

Comparable Sales per Sq. Ft.
Regional Malls(4) $442 $419 5.5%
Premium Outlet(R) Centers(2) $426 $397(3) 7.3%
Community/Lifestyle Centers(2) $218 $213 2.3%

Average Rent per Sq. Ft.
Regional Malls(1) $34.16 $32.92 3.8%
Premium Outlet(R) Centers(2) $22.83 $21.16(3) 7.9%
Community/Lifestyle Centers(2) $11.13 $10.77 3.3%

(1) For mall and freestanding stores.
(2) For all owned gross leasable area (GLA).
(3) The Company acquired Chelsea Property Group on October 14, 2004.
(4) For mall and freestanding stores with less than 10,000 square feet.

http://investors.simon.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=113968&p=irol-newsArticle_print&ID=736289&highlight


Every time there is a thread on malls on DU I realize we don't really have a true cross section of the American consumer here (a compliment to DU'ers).

[SheilaT]

50. It's my personal experience that when I go to those

new-fangled sorts of malls, I do not browse stores. I got to the one specific store I want, do my business there, and leave. No strolling around to see what else might interest me.

The weather has nothing to do with it. At least in my case.

[Stargazer09]

52. That's what I do, as well

We have one nearby, and it's basically a glorified strip mall (with more restricted parking).

I park as close as possible, I hit the one or two stores I need, then I leave. No browsing, no window shopping, no hanging out.

My teenager will go from shop to shop with her friends, but they typically don't buy very much.

[AlbertCat]

72. I do not browse stores.

I don't browse stores in the mall! I mean, there'll be 5 shoe stores in the mall.... all with the same shoes.

[Phentex]

115. That's why I don't mind them. However, I am not their target customer...

I hate malls because I find them overwhelming. I don't like having to go past all kinds of stores just to get to the one I want. And because I'm not much of a shopper, I never really get to know where things are in a mall and that compounds the problem.

Here, these new shopping centers are called Live Work Play communities. They look like the ones in the pictures shown with open spaces, apartments on top of the retail stores, parking in front. At least with those, I can go to the one store I want to visit, like you said, and I then I can leave. They seem less confusing to me. Our weather here means these will do very well most all year round.

[Agschmid]

127. I like that...

Live, work, play.

I am totally the target market because I would rent one of these apartments. Not sure buying is the right decision because the market could turn at any moment... Then you end up living in a condo at an abandoned mall.

[SheilaT]

140. I used to like malls, found them very convenient

for my shopping needs. But that was quite a while ago. I'm now 65, which is probably the most important point. Like many people in my age range, I simply shop a whole lot less than I needed to when I was young and single and a bit later when I was still relatively young but married and raising two kids. I currently work, but it's not a job I need to buy career clothes for. I love to read but what with space considerations and a reduced income, I mostly get books from the library. And so on.

I only shop a little on the internet.

Great big huge enormous malls I do find overwhelming. Once I was in Minneapolis and paid a brief visit to the Mall of America, or whatever it's called. I browsed through less than a quarter of it and left. Too many stores.

Right now I am need of a new clock radio, so in a bit I'm going to head off to Target to get one. Go in, brows the clock radios, maybe find a birthday card for my son whose birthday is later on this month and that's it.

[Lifelong Protester]

181. Mall of America-only for Nordstrom

Once a year, the Nordstrom sale (I still work) and I'm in-out. I have gone to the Nordie's sale at least the last 15 years. I go there, a couple of other stores (Chico's and Barnes and Nobles) and then home. There is at least 3/4 of that mall I have not seen nor do I want to see. It is all too much.

I do not get the whole tourist destination thing, but I guess that's just me (I'm 58).

[SheilaT]

185. Interesting. I went to Target and Best Buy

and they simply didn't have the kind of clock radio I needed in stock. So I wound up buying on Amazon.

[hatrack]

188. I think you and I are similar . . . and anomalous!

Never gave much of a damn about shopping, and when I know what I want, I go and get it and then go do something else.

But then, we're not coveted by retailers, either . . .

[MADem]

87. Mashpee Commons...

And it's absolute misery in a cold rain (which was pouring down last time I was there). I can't imagine how much it would suck in a snowstorm!

http://mashpeecommons.com/

[Agschmid]

99. Its a good example...

This is a good quick read.

http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/print-edition/2013/02/22/rise-of-lifestyle-centers-reshaping.html?page=all

[MADem]

107. It is--thanks! nt

[Agschmid]

108. I need to check out Derby St. At some point.

[boston bean]

53. The Wrentham outlet malls is like this. And it booms during all seasons.

[ScreamingMeemie]

93. It already is... except they call them outdoor malls, not "lifestyle centers."

http://www.shoppartridgecreek.com/



This one is down the street from my BIL in Macomb, MI.

[A HERETIC I AM]

191. There's one in Estero, Fl. between Fort Myers and Naples that has condos available.

You can buy a place to live 100 yards from the movie theater and the Target, etc.

http://www.simon.com/mall/coconut-point

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Coconut+Point&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&fb=1&gl=us&hq=coconut+point+mall&cid=18428525141452577331&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A

Not sure whether they are managed by the same firm that owns the property, but there you go.

[KamaAina]

193. Santana Row in San Jose

http://www.santanarow.com/

has condos AND a hotel. Top that!

edit: Oh, and a more traditional (that is, less yupscale) mall is directly across the street (but in Santa Clara, so they can still use plastic bags ).

[KittyWampus]

25. Interesting. Marketplaces have evolved over thousands of years and will continue >>>

I've no doubt about that.

[valerief]

112. The lifestyle centers will all be converted to big casinos.

Low-income housing would be a better use, but that doesn't make very rich people richer.

[Tikki]

122. My local So Cal Outlets Centre (no weather problem, place is huge 160+ stores) is always packed...

they have a seasonal shuttle for those who have to park a ways away.
Even the businesses, motels, car dealerships, restaurants, movie theatres, etc. along
the peripheries benefit financially from this centre.

I don't know how anyone could just 'hang out' there, though…the sidewalks are always crowded
and security is everywhere. Only has a tiny food court.

The foreign tourists come by the bus~loads and it seems to be a planned destination for those on their
way up North or further South.

I rarely shop there. But it does bring considerable tax monies to the city I live in.


Tikki

[awoke_in_2003]

138. I cannot stand those places...

that try to re-create the look of old time Main Street in a very plastic, artificial way.

[penultimate]

57. Ahhh lifestyle center...

I live next to one of those, but I never knew there was a name like that for it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

97. I think that's more of a developer "chichi" term. Here,it's an outdoor mall.

The one by me is called a "shopping village":

http://www.vintageparkhouston.com/


The one where I used to live is called "The Mall at Partridge Creek"

[Agschmid]

106. It is a marketing term...but it does indicate there may be more options than shopping.

For example Legacy Place has:

Citizens Bank HQ Office
PF Changs, and two other restaurants
Whole Foods
Movie Theater
Park and Ride/Bus Terminal
... And then many retail stores

[ScreamingMeemie]

114. That appears to be the standard. It is the same here and at the Mall at Partridge Creek.

[penultimate]

131. The thing I'm thinking of is titled town square...

Not sure if it's exactly the same thing, but it does seem to fit the description in many ways...

http://www.southlaketownsquare.com/

[Agschmid]

139. Yup that is one!

[Android3.14]

88. "Traditional"

What does it say of a culture when something such as "The Mall" is tradition?

[Agschmid]

91. It says occasionally people need to buy things...

What were you thinking?

[Android3.14]

120. I'm thinking I have better things to do on a Sunday

Than deal with aggravation.
Good day.

[gulliver]

146. Having all that space dedicated to nothing but shopping...

...was always kind of warped. This lifestyle center thing seems closer to what is needed. We already have good shared places for activities, like churches, schools, gyms, etc. If you could go play pick-up basketball, and then get a beer and dinner in the same area, it would be interesting. Maybe take home some groceries. Listen to a band, watch a play...all without a bunch of driving. Beats the Internet at its own game.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. I like Sbarro - it's not the suckiest chain-pizza out there...

That's Papa John's. Their pizza truly sucks.

[MADem]

90. The founders of Sbarro are from Naples, Italy--they make an edible product! nt

[AAO]

126. As does their CEO.

[Cooley Hurd]

5. The concept of The Mall is dying because Fat Americans don't want to walk...

What killed The Mall? Trans-fats. BTW there's a website dedicated to the decline of Shopping Malls:
http://deadmalls.com/

[Loudly]

7. Wilding flash mobs might also have something to do with it. n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

16. That's it! Who wants to go anywhere where people suddenly start dancing?

[FrodosPet]

95. Are they doing the tango or the waltz?

VIDEO: Facebook post to put Kings Plaza Mall 'on tilt' incites flash mob, fighting at Brooklyn shopping center

A mob of about 300 kids starting fighting, yelling and running wild in the Mill Basin shopping center Friday, cops said, prompting an increased police presence.


http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/video-teens-brawl-kings-plaza-mall-brooklyn-article-1.1559582

~ snip ~

Video posted online of the madness shows several girls getting into fights before police officers intervene, and other kids dashing throughout the mall.

Abu Taleb watched in horror as the teens poached items from other vendors. He said he couldn’t escape the throngs of pint-sized pickpockets as they raided his jars of sweets — and tried to get their paws on his cash.

“It was scary,” Taleb told the Daily News. “Everybody was scared. There were a lot of people, a lot of kids. It was very loud. Security tried to stop them, but they could not do it.

“Kids tried to get my cash from the register,” he continued. “(One) had scissors and was acting like he (was) going to attack me.

~ snip ~

[Agschmid]

8. Hmmm...

I don't know if I agree with that one. I don't see a correlation.

[Cooley Hurd]

12. Many malls have been converted back to strip-malls...

...where you park in front of the store and walk a short distance to it. There are many malls that began as a strip mall, then they roofed the "commons" and you had to walk yards and yards to get to that store (instead of merely parking in front of it).

[Agschmid]

15. Yes it's called a lifestyle center, but I doubt it has much to do with trans fats.

I think that is a reach.

[hobbit709]

9. I guess overpriced stores selling nothing anyone wanted had nothing to do with it.

I quit going to malls 25 years because there was nothing there I wanted to buy.

[Cooley Hurd]

14. That was a factor, but the malls in the 70's/80's thrived...

That said, I'm suddenly jonesing for an Orange Julius!

[JoeyT]

58. Overpriced crap tends to thrive a lot better

when people have disposable income to spend on it. When you're trying to make ends meet, heading to some bullshit frat-boy theme shop and blowing a hundred and fifty bucks on a pair of jeans isn't quite as enticing.

[LiberalEsto]

121. The decline of the middle class causes the decline of malls and mid-priced restaurants nt

[marions ghost]

184. Bingo

---less money to throw away.

[freebrew]

73. Back then there were REAL stores..

with good merchandise. I remember going to a mall near St. Louis, SEARS was a real place then that had almost anything one could ask for. I don't remember why sears went belly-up, but I do remember why I won't buy anything from them anymore. Every item that costs more than $100 some manager wants to sell a warranty with it. The last time I left the merch there and they lost a sale. Fug them and all the imported crap they and every other retail store sells.

My son works at a 'Premium' outlet mall in Osage Beach, MO. Idiots from all over come here to pay more for the same shit they can get at home. Maybe they just like driving for 3 hours to get nowhere and spend $$$.

[DireStrike]

80. Sears was apparently destroyed when they put a rabid objectivist in charge

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/10/ayn_rand_loving_ceo_destroys_his_empire_partner/

I never liked sears much. Stores that sell everything have no personality, and specialized stores sell better and more varied products. Still it seems a trend we can't beat, since nobody has time to go to 3 different places and settles for whatever is at Target or Wal Mart.

[freebrew]

96. Damn! Thanks for that...

I really had no idea it was that bad.

But it seems that more and more, the corporate whores are trying the same thing. The company I used to work for did it, laid off everyone over 40 that wasn't in management.

The comments at the end of the article are pretty good, too.

[Cooley Hurd]

101. Half of the century-old homes you pass are Sears homes.

Bought from the catalog and built by local laborers. Sears is a great part of our history, IMO.

[DireStrike]

104. I didn't know that. That's pretty cool.

Provides some context that makes the whole thing more tragic.

[PSPS]

128. I don't know about "half"

The largest concentration of Sears Modern Homes seems to be in the Midwest near their Illinois shipping point. Nevertheless, it is a fascinating part of history. They not only sent all the pieces with assembly instructions and kegs of nails, they usually included a tree to plant in the yard! Read more about it here: http://www.searsarchives.com/homes/

[hatrack]

189. Too bad - Craftsman tools were outstanding for decades

Guess they outsourced those to China, too, since the last time I went to look, they most definitely didn't have the same quality of finish.

[joeglow3]

86. There are two different kinds of "outlet" stores

I went to that mall last summer. Most people aren't driving to Osage beach for the malls.

That said, there are two different types of stores:

stores for brands that are looking to sell their goods directly to the consumer (Nike, under armour, coach, etc). These stores tend to be in every outlet mall and offer mildly cheaper prices.

Stores that are exist for the chains to send last year's style. These stores are the ones where you can get dirt cheap items. The mall in Osage beach has a shoe store (Adidas or reebok) that is nothing more than folding tables with boxes of shoes and a cash register on a card table. I went to an express store in Orlando and got jeans for $7 a pair. THOSE are the stores to hit.

[Agschmid]

103. Most outlet stores are not "last years styles" anymore...

Most major retail brand outlet stores now sell new product, designed and made specifically for outlet sales. Sometimes it's a remake of a popular style for example a silk dress may be sold at J.Crew but when it comes to outlet it will be made in cotton and therefor less expensive.

[joeglow3]

105. That is what I said.

[Kilgore]

160. That Did It!

Now I have a large Julius stuck in my head!!!

[AlbertCat]

75. I guess overpriced stores selling nothing anyone wanted had nothing to do with it.

Like I mentioned above.... there will be 5 shoe stores in the mall.... all with the same shoes at the same price.

And the amount one must pay just to have a kiosk! It simply costs too much now to climate control a huge open building. Businesses don't wanna pay for it.

[Logical]

182. LOL, classy as usual. n-t

[mikeargo]

10. Read an article earlier this week...

Don't remember where, but it said that there are 46 square feet of retail space for every person in the US. I don't see how that is sustainable. There's going to be a correction, and it's going to take down a lot of stores.

[reACTIONary]

100. 46 square feet isn't realy that much...

...less than 7 x 7. About the size of a smallish bathroom? If you calculate Walmart's total square footage and divide through by 46, they "cover" about 15.5 million Americans.

[cali]

17. I live in Vermont's Northeast Kingdom and close by I have two shockingly good pizza places

and with amazing beer and cocktail menus. and the third pizza joint isn't bad either.

Positive Pie. It's a chain with 20 restaurants and it's what a chain should be.

The Bruscetta Pizza is delicious and this being a farming community, lots and lots of local ingredients- even in the winter. Oh and they also serve Poutine with local cheddar curds and duck gravy.

http://www.rbirestaurantgroup.com/menus/11/Spring%20Menu%2014.
http://www.positivepie.com/hardwick/home.php

And then there's Parker Pie

http://parkerpie.com/

[KittyWampus]

21. Do you prefer thin crust? Less cheese or more?

Some of us in real life were talking about our preferences for pizza and we all seemed to prefer thin crust, less cheese and more veggies.

When I was a kid, I loved more cheese but now it just clogs my sinuses

[cali]

27. yep, think crust. also local fresh ingredients

My favorite pizza is still the one my mom made and that I still make from time to time- with just a few variations, It's think crust,, fresh tomatoes, mozzarella, freshly grated parmesan, a touch of good olive oil, fresh basil and and freshly ground pepper and salt. It's delicious beyond it's ingredients.

I'm a pizza fan for sure.

[AAO]

125. think crust?

Do you mean thin or thick?

[Agschmid]

109. If you get to Burlington try BitMe! It is very good!

[KG]

18. I kinda liked malls. but some of the reasons i used to go to kill an afternoon are gone

at my local mall, there's no longer a music store, no book store, no arcade etc.

[sufrommich]

24. I can't remember the last time I've seen a book

store in a mall. Crazy.

[Chan790]

136. I can't remember the last time I saw a bookstore.

Period and a full-stop.

There are no bookstores here. Not since Borders went under and the Barnes & Noble across the street immediately went out of business as if they were symbiotically linked.

[Ed Suspicious]

59. add to that no movie theater. Much of the fun has left the mall. It's now a splayed out shrine to

overly priced, cheaply made, homogeneously styled fashion. That model of mall offers me next to nothing.

[jmowreader]

192. That's weird

In Spokane there are three malls. Two have theatres and arcades. The third, which is downtown, has a theatre with an Imax hall but no arcade.

The big mall by Sea-Tac airport has a theatre but not sure about an arcade.

Now here's one for you: remember when malls had supermarkets?

[nessa]

19. I read that when many of the malls in the 80's started out..

They gave unrealistically cheap, long term leases to big anchor stores. Then they tried to make their profits on the small stores, who paid much, much more per square foot. When the leases for the big anchors were up, they left.

This combined with internet shopping did them in.

[KittyWampus]

20. retail outlets on Long Island are busy. Charter buses come from all over to them. They are huge>>>

Biblical sized stip malls with name brand "outlet" stores that sell cheap knock-offs of their own merchandise and left over inventory.

They are so huge, you can probably see them from space. They are like the older "under one roof" mall in that there are so many stores in one development but unlike those malls in that these are in rows like an agora.

They all have food courts.

and maybe Sbarro is behind the times with pizza. My family and friends all prefer thin crust, less cheese, more veggies pizza. I have no idea what Sbarro offers anymore. Haven't been in a mall in maybe 20 years.

[Yavin4]

23. Malls are dying because the middle class is dying

The middle class kept the shopping mall alive. The rich shop at designer stores in urban areas, and the poor go to big box stores or other discount retailers.

[Agschmid]

28. Now this is the real reason.

[Nye Bevan]

31. Nope, malls are dying because I can get pretty much whatever I want on Amazon,

delivered for free in 2 days (or next day for $3.99) without dealing with traffic, parking, lines, nasty food, etc. Going to malls is something I did regularly years ago but now I hardly ever go to them, and I don't miss them at all.

[Agschmid]

33. It's funny....

I've never bought a thing on Amazon. I'm not sure how/why but I don't shop online. For some reason I feel the same way about online shopping that you feel about malls.

[edhopper]

35. If you need small electronic components

like cables or smart phone add-ons, you will save big time with Amazon compared to Best Buy or Radio Shack. Up to 75%.
Also the retail stores have a very limited stock, just one or two items for a product. Amazon will have dozens.

[Agschmid]

36. For me I enjoy the experience of being in a mall.

I love people watching, I like trying things on, etc.

[penultimate]

64. I always feel like I'm being watched when I go to a mall...

[Agschmid]

65. Now you know you are!

Might even be me.

[alarimer]

77. Best Buy doesn't sell any of that stuff.

I don't like Amazon; I don't like how they treat their employees, but they have weird stuff like cables you can't find anywhere.

Except maybe Radio Shack and the one near me is terrible.

I had to buy an odd cable the other day for some headphones. I had a pair of Shure headphones that came in two parts. The lower part that attaches to the mp3 player wore out but the headphones were still good, but too short now for me to actually use.

I had to find a cable that was like one of those AUX input cables, but with the female receptor at one end. Finally found it on Amazon for about $3. It occurs to me now that I should have checked with the maker of the headphones first, but I'm guessing that might have cost me more.

[Nye Bevan]

39. You should consider shopping online for environmental reasons.

Compare the environmental impact of:

1. Thirty people in a town drive their cars to the mall, circle around to find parking spots, go inside to buy their items (each of which was delivered on a truck to the retailer), go back to their cars, and drive home. Of course, those who could not find the product they wanted drive to another mall and repeat the process.

2. A single UPS truck drives through a town and drops off a package to each of 30 Amazon customers in that town.

[Agschmid]

46. I drive anyway, so personally for me it is a moot point.

I love driving could spend all day in the car. It is a soothing experience for me.

[Hippo_Tron]

92. Amazon uses A LOT of packaging

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd love to see a full environmental impact comparison.

[Agschmid]

110. I'd love to see them really play on a level field, with tax rates, etc.

[bigwillq]

41. I never on-line shop

Just not my thing. I get the convenience, and how you can save a few bucks, but I'd rather just go to a store, get what I need and leave.

I like going to stores, walking around, trying things on, people watching.

[Yavin4]

40. Shopping at the mall is a much different retail experience from online buying.

Going to the mall was a way for people to hang out, walk around, eat, go to a movie, socialize with friends, etc. You can also touch, feel, and try on merchandise before you buy it. You can't see how the jeans look on you when you buy them on Amazon.

Online retail cannot completely replace experiential shopping. No, the malls are dying because experiential shopping has become a luxury that the middle class can no longer afford.

[penultimate]

62. I don't see how people can't afford to go to the mall

If they are still buying their goods online or at other sources, then it seems more like people are looking for more convenient ways of acquiring items. Going to a traditional mall is something I do as a last resort, because I personally find them unappealing. Although, I used to hang out at malls a lot when I was a teenager. That kinda lost its appeal to me when I left high school.

[Hippo_Tron]

94. Which is why the malls aren't dead, but declining

People still do shop in malls for reasons you state and for other reasons. Just not as much as they used to. Online shopping has taken away a lot of their business.

But the decline of the middle class certainly is a factor as well.

[abelenkpe]

117. I never shop

Dont like shopping at all and live within walking distance of two malls (one outdoor, one indoor) farmers market and many shops. You're right about online shopping. Why go anywhere when one can order online and have it in one or two days delivered to your door?

But there is also a drop or rather less of a projected rise in consumer spending in the US since 2008. That's why so many businesses are looking at expanding markets overseas. I know the movie industry is all about flat sales in the US and expanding sales worldwide. And have read that many retail chains similarly are concentrating on overseas sales while closing US stores. Consumers are more spread across the globe.

[anneboleyn]

176. Yes, the internet killed malls. And the changing culture of the 90s when the California malls

started closing in significant numbers. That started a wave, and people also started going to outlets and Walmart/Target in bigger numbers as the conspicuous consumption insanity of the 1980s began to fade. I remember, even though I was young, that in the mid 80s our family spent some Saturdays wandering around various malls in SoCal spending money on assorted junk like candles, perfumed soaps, cassettes or CDs from now-defunct music stores, items of clothing, etc. All of the video arcades went out of business first, then the anchor department stores...It seems the massive economic hits the middle class has been enduring since the late 70s/early 80s hasn't helped either. Families no longer have money to spend during a "day at the mall."

We buy almost everything from amazon also. Two day shipping, excellent service, selection, and prices, instant movies, no driving, no crowds, perfect. Exactly. Why in the hell would we want to waste a day at a mall? I haven't been to one in years.

[edhopper]

32. That is both obvious

and insightful. Thanks.

So obvious, it didn't come to mind.

[ctsnowman]

67. Yup.

[Drunken Irishman]

144. Not true at all...

Malls are dying because we're becoming smarter in our development. Most suburban communities are developing more urban, mixed-use projects in place of the mall - places where people can actually live, work and play. It's a great thing for America, a country that, because of the mall, was overrun by sprawl.

The mall has gone from this:



To this:

[Orrex]

29. Malls are dying because they suck

I haven't been to one in 20 years that wasn't wall-to-wall bullshit, with over-priced trendy clothing boutiques, over-priced trendy furniture boutiques, and over-priced trendy electronic boutiques, with an occaional vanilla bookstore or grossly overpriced "music store" thrown in for balance.

I'm sorry about the jobs that will be lost, but malls have been a dying breed for decades. Why is HuffPo only noticing this now?

[Walk away]

30. Sbarro's food reeks of canned garlic. I have never actually tasted it....

because I am used to eating authentic Italian food made from fresh ingredients and if it smells so much better than mall pizza then I shudder at what Sbarro's pizza would taste like.
I imagine their drop off in business has more to do with Americans developing more sophisticated palates.

[edhopper]

34. Could be

fast food pizza is to the real thing what Chips Ahoy are to fresh baked cookies.

[Walk away]

83. Maybe...

Chips Ahoy tastes like cardboard but the smell of them doesn't make me nauseous. Sbarro...Bah!

[undeterred]

37. Sbarro was the only mall food with a vegetarian choice -

that being a mushroom and spinach pizza.

[MoonchildCA]

129. They also had a stuffed spinach pizza.

It was packed full of spinach. With a side of marinara to dip it in, it wasn't too bad.

[Freddie]

38. Some malls will live on, others no

Like Mall of America and the Court at King of Prussia; regional destinations for a whole day's shopping/entertainment. The smaller mall in my town got "de-malled" (turned into a regular shopping center) some years ago. People don't want to park far away and walk through a mall just to go to, say, CVS or the Hallmark store.

[fredamae]

42. At what point do we

consider the economic impact of Gun Violence? I won't/don't go there anymore for that reason--personally.

Schools
Theaters
Malls
Etc

Screw it.

[Cleita]

43. I never took to malls from the time of their inception.

I was always a down town sort of person, you know, a Main Street with stores and restaurants.

[Bandit]

44. I almost never go to a Mall or hardly any store anymore. As long as people are allowed

to walk around carrying guns into malls and stores I don't need to be there. It's pretty basic really. Gun nuts have demanded their "Rights" at my expense. I accept that and just don't go out much any more.

[xfundy]

45. I first tried Sbarro at the Times Square location.

It was horrible, and located in one of the two top pizza-pride cities. Never again.

The smell alone is sickening.

[edhopper]

47. If you are in NYC

DO NOT GO TO A CHAIN!!!! Real New Yorkers steer clear of them. If you were in New Mexico would you go to Chilis?
That is not a real NY pizza. Try Yelp, there is some of the best Pizza in the World in NY.

[JHB]

98. Good god, this is how the Olive Garden threads started! Flee for your lives!

[edhopper]

102. Apologies

I wanted it to be about Malls, but as Al Pacino said "They pull me back in."

[Bluenorthwest]

68. In NYC, I always eat Grimaldi's in Brooklyn or any of the locations.

http://newyorkmobilewebsites.com/grimaldis/

[TomClash]

84. Try these

Roberta's in Bushwick.

DiFara in Dyker Heights.

Spumoni Gardens in Bensonhurst.

[merrily]

48. Pizza will never die in NYC!

John's in Greenwich Village was my favorite.

True story: A pizzeria moved from NYC to California, but could not duplicate the taste of its own pizza again. Solution: A friend sends them NYC tap water.

[edhopper]

49. Yes

the water is very key.
But even pizzas made by an ex-New Yorker with know-how using local water is far superior top the chains.

[merrily]

51. I've had pizza in a chain once in my life.

Need I say more?

[merrily]

56. P.S. I don't like upscale pizza, either.

I guess it's what you grow up having that you love most?

Do you know if John's is still operating in Greenwich Village? I haven't been back to NYC in a long while.

[edhopper]

111. I believe they closed in the Village.

but have a large restaurant near Times Square that is run by one of the sons. It is as good as the Village one.

[merrily]

190. Great.

Then that's two locations I probably will never get to.

Lived in Manhattan before I got married. Ended in Boston. Returned a lot because my sister lived there, but she moved. It's a long way for me to travel just for pizza, even for John's garlic pizza. But, I like knowing it's there, if I ever do go back.

I'm sure Boston has great thin crust pizza, but I haven't found it since my favorite place--walking distance no less--closed. Now it's thin crust that is only okay, upscale pizza and Sicilian thicker crust. Sigh.

Great memory, though.

[edhopper]

113. In NY some of those restaurants serve a pizza

that is just like the original Napoli pies. They have even imported ovens from Naples. It is a different pizza and both have their charms.

[merrily]

187. Then, I'll just have to go to Naples.

[HockeyMom]

61. Memories of John's from my childhood

back in the 50s! My Mom and Dad would take me there and we would order a pie. That was a treat. Back they sonly had booth and was a lot smaller. I liked kicking all the sawdust on the floor. lol

[merrily]

71. I guess I missed the booth era. I saw only tables.

Do you know if it's still open? Lord, I hope so. I like to think I will get back and have a garlic pizza at John's. I probably never will, but taking away the possibility would make me feel deprived (of something I'll probably never have again anyway, LOL)

[HockeyMom]

79. I think so

My daughters and I went there a few years ago. They have expanded to double the size they originally were. I think they have squeezed in as many tables as they possibly could! Difficult to move around, and of course, very, very crowded with long line to get in.

[merrily]

81. Oh, good.

Do me a favor. If you hear of it closing, never tell me. Even if I ask, just lie. It wouldn't really be a lie, since I've asked you to do it and know you might have your fingers crossed.

It would give me a bit of a sad to think of it closed and who needs a sad?

[Zorra]

133. Interesting. I have only found one pizza joint outside the NYC area

that actually makes a pizza almost as good as an NYC pizza, and the owner is from NYC.

I love pizza, but compared to a good NYC pizza, most of the stuff they call pizza here out west is actually unrecognizable as pizza.

I've been to NYC several times and always eat pizza when I'm there. If I was filthy rich I'd have NYC pizzas flown out here periodically. It's a friggin' delicacy!

[MarianJack]

54. Here in Winthrop, Maine,...

...we have Mia Lina Pizza and Winthrop House of Pizza. Both are delicious mom & pop places and we don't need any friggin crappy chains! YUCK!

PEACE!

[Vashta Nerada]

55. Meh.

I won't miss them.

[HockeyMom]

60. Nothing beats NY Mom and Pop pizza

Why would you want to eat chain pizza in NEW YORK? Crazy. I live in Florida and still won't go to any of those chain places. Either I make it myself from scratch, or when it's too hot in Summer, I go to a little local Mom and Pop place. It's not NY pizza, but still better than any chain. When I go back to NY, pizza and bagels are the first places I go.

Malls? Teenagers don't go to malls to hang? From what I have seen when I go back, the Long Island malls are usually packed, especially in the Winter months. Florida has a lot of outside malls. EVERYTHING is outside in Florida. Where I live there is one typical enclosed Mall. Yes, it is crowded also. Besides the teens, it has a big food court which gets local workers eating lunch there. Plus, while Florida doesn't have the winter weather like up North, the Summers can be BRUTALLY HOT. That is when it's nice having an indoor AC Mall.

[JoeyT]

63. Malls are dying because everything is overpriced crap in them.

When you're trying to figure out how to make rent hitting up the mall to go to some bullshit frat or surf themed shop so you can spend a hundred and fifty bucks on a pair of poorly made jeans and thirty dollars for a t-shirt is probably not going to be real high on your list of priorities.

[merrily]

66. On the main topic, I think what is going on is TV, the internet and video games.

People hole up at home and also shop online. Less time, more comfort, no gas money, no parking, comparison shopping, thanks to things like shop with google. And now, Amazon wants to fly drones so it can deliver same day because, after all, who can wait overnight?
.
No reason to go to the mall, unless you miss people spraying perfume at you, or your favorite restaurant or movie theater is in the mall.

Also, with the economy, obviously, people have less money to spend.


Sad thing: more jobs lost.

[MrMickeysMom]

69. What happened to "The Mall" followed what happened to "big box stores" as the town square searched..

… for it's patrons.

We have a company (CBL) who since buying out the management over our local mall, turned up rental agreements to the point that these stores, already being squeezed for square footage rental, could NOT be given any break when the economy tanked at the end of the Bush Crime Family administration.

Honestly, it's a tough decision, but if you can't manage storefronts, get out of the business, or do something bold to hang on to your patrons. These guys are the WallMart of Malls, and the results are what you get when you use that same model.

The town square shopping center does better than our mall because of what it has there. So, most of us would rather park and walk to the fronts from our cars. As for me… I gotta get my hair cut at the same place until THEY decide to flee… Then, I'll follow them to the next location where I intend spend my money.

[AlbertCat]

70. "That’s because most of its stores are in malls"

It's not because pizza CEO's keep trying to charge more because, well y'know....Obama?

[tavalon]

74. I didn't know that malls were dying

I've stepped into one maybe 3 times in the last decade.

[Nye Bevan]

76. Free 30-day trial of Amazon Prime available here!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/primesignup/ref=assoc_tag_ph_1384415829622?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=pf4&tag=wwwviolentkicom

Save the environment by not driving to the mall, circling around to find a parking spot, AND avoid nasty mall fast food!

[rickford66]

78. We have frequented our local Pizza shop for many years.

Ate their pizza at two different locations since the early 70's. A great Italian family. When I call in I don't even have to give my name and they make it extra thin. The owner once told me they make their own extra thin also. They used to adjust the ingredients to accommodate our son's food allergies. I'd give their name but in the Binghamton NY area there's big divisions over who's pizza is best. Similar to Old Forge PA. I'll stay out of the fight.

[mackerel]

82. I could give you a whole list of reasons of why the malls are dying but I'm on my

phone. mostly the malls are dying though because they've been taken over by non paying people that just want to hang out there. I don't want to call them customers because they don't actually buy much at the mall. they mostly loiter and while they're mostly harmless it's not something if you're a consumer shopper you want to wade through especially if you have little children. the last place I want to go shopping is somewhere my my teenage son and his friends are hanging out.

[MADem]

85. They are closing 155 stores....

Trying to consolidate their position after coming out of bankruptcy:

The move is part of a broader plan to boost financial performance under a new management team, according to a statement yesterday. The closings affect underperforming company-owned stores and not franchise locations, Sbarro said.

The chain, based in Melville, New York, is still trying to rebound after emerging from bankruptcy in 2011. Sbarro’s restaurants are concentrated in malls, where slowing traffic and muted consumer spending has taken a toll on food courts. Even as it scales back operations in its home country, the company added South American locations last year.

They should associate with some high traffic gas stations out on the highways--you see that kind of thing a lot in Italy; it's fast food but surprisingly good.

[hrmjustin]

89. Never went to the mall as a kid but we have plenty of pizza here in Brooklyn.

[edhopper]

118. Yes

I am amazed that anyone in NY would order from Papa John's or Domino's. It like Americans who eat at McDonald's when they are in Europe. Beyond me. (and yes, McD's in Europe is better than here, but it's still fucking MD's)

[wercal]

116. I went to the mall yesterday - it was fairly crowded.

It had some of the mainstays, like a small arcade.

The movie theater moved out five years ago. The music store is now a fancy kitchen accessory store.

New additions included a 'ride' on a bungee contraption, and an entire shop where kids could do space bounce and other activities.

The new normal - accessory shops. Kids can't afford thirty dlar jeans, but they will pay five dollars for a hair tie or necklace. This stuff is so cheap, the profit margins have to be huge. Its stuff nobody really needs...and it probably doesn't last very long...but this cheap crap is the engine tbat drives the mall.

Sbarro - very overpriced in my opinion. Their price for pizza is 'theme park' high. I've tried their stromboli several times - usually very dried out after an entire afternoon under the heat lamp.

There are small signs of decline. One of the food court slots is now a massive vending machine for beauty products. Another is now just a giant advertising board for an insurance company. There has been turnover with the anchor stores...and one of the three is currently empty.

The mall will go on I think. The concept will be adjusted, but I don't see them going away. We have a 'dead mall', but thats only because the population of the area is shifting location. Most dead malls have an accompanying live mall on the other side of town.

[Agschmid]

132. Very true.

Rochester NY had three malls, Wilmorite the property manager/developer of the area got greedy and built a 4th mall (Medley Center) sometime in the 90's it never took off. The mall eventually went into decline but the other three area malls are fairly well and are being redeveloped.

All three other malls have/or are going on a "lifestyle" redevelopment... Adding restaurants and new stores with out door entryways, etc.

Links:
http://www.wilmorite.com
http://www.themallatgreeceridge.com/redevelopment/
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medley_Centre

[FarCenter]

119. The rent is too damn high!

The return on investment, operational costs, heating, and cooling of the common enclosed spaces has to be recovered in the rents charged to the retail stores in an enclosed mall. The stores can't compete with their lower rent brethren in strip malls.

[Blue_Tires]

123. The mall died over a decade ago

when they killed off the last of the coin-op video game arcades

[Auggie]

130. The Suburban Mall Concept killed many downtowns ...

I say, good riddance.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

134. I will not shed a tear if Sbarros goes away

But we were in weeks of mourning when Borders went away.

[lunamagica]

135. My local mall is always packed. nt

[MadrasT]

137. This makes me want to go to the mall and eat at Sbarro.

Although usually I hit up Sbarro at highway rest stops. Not great, but edible and predictable.

[hunter]

141. When a big "anchor store" at one end of a mall goes out of business...

... we could turn it into apartments. Such apartments might be especially attractive to elderly people who could go walking every day without driving or putting up with bad weather.

Outdoors, a portion of the parking lot might be turned into parks and gardens.

Generally it takes less energy to repurpose buildings than to tear them down and start over.

With adequate pensions, Social Security, housing subsidies, and medical care, there could be lively markets inside the mall for residents and their visitors.

I remember what a treat it was when I was a little kid to walk with my grandma to the local dime store for ice cream, and sometimes even lunch at the counter. She lived in a traditional city setting of the sort that is rare now, especially in the suburbs.

[Drunken Irishman]

142. Thank God! The mall was one of the worst things to happen to America.

They catered to the automobile, pushed sprawl and nearly killed off many downtowns across this country. It's refreshing to see malls being replaced by real development.

[HockeyMom]

148. Order online instead?

I like SEEING, and trying on, what I am buying. I am 5"1 and 100 lbs. Clothes online just don't fit me. Pay to send them back? I have to try them on. Cannot do that online.

[Drunken Irishman]

149. There are other options than the mall...

The mall was a curse that led to sprawl, the demise of the downtown and the push for white flight toward suburbia. The fact its demise is happening does not mean, however, you are forced to shop online.

[HockeyMom]

173. Like Outside Strip Malls?

That is what Florida has. What is the difference? Inside or Outside?

[Trajan]

143. Malls are 'dying', for the same reason the economy is so moribund

Because right wing conservative strictures against unionization and wage increases have strangled the buying power of families across the board ...

IF the captains of industry wish to continue to amass mighty fortunes, they will need to open up their purse and pay a GOOD wage ...

Every wage that is limited and suppressed is another family that refuses to spend money in pizza restaurants ... or clothes shops, or cars, washing machines, etc etc ...

Wage suppression has been quite successful .... this is the result ....

[cherokeeprogressive]

145. Malls dying? LOL! SOMEone hasn't been to So. Cal. lately.

I stopped at a Lucille's BBQ place yesterday at the Victoria Gardens Mall in Rancho Cucamonga, to pick up some beef ribs I'd ordered online. First, it took me 30 minutes to find a parking place. When I walked into Lucille's, the Hostess was telling people it would be a one hour and forty-five minute wait for a table. That was at THREE O'CLOCK in the afternoon.

Malls dying?

[Agschmid]

147. Rancho Cucamonga...

I always just thought that was a place in the movie Bring it On... Good to know it is real!

[Codeine]

156. The only town around with an all-vegan grocery store

and a kick-ass comic book store!

[cherokeeprogressive]

162. LOL there are numerous references to the place in cartoons from the 40's on.

Here's a cool link:

http://www.dailybulletin.com/general-news/20120225/bugs-daffy-porky-and-mr-leghorn-in-cucamonga

[Codeine]

155. And the Galleria at Tyler is jumping as well.

Even Ontario Mills is still doing good business, for what reason I cannot fathom. Hate that place now that World Market and Tower and Games Workshop are gone.

[edhopper]

150. But as Cat Stevens sang

"I know we've come along way
we're changing day to day
But tell me where do the children play?"

Where ARE people going to hang out?

[RandySF]

151. The Westfield Mall in San Francisco is doing fine.

[Aerows]

152. I'll probably get mocked for saying so

But we got a Little Caesar's Pizza here (finally!) and I have to have a Deep! Deep! with extra cheese, onions and beef at least twice a month. I LOVE their Deep! Deep! with extra cheese. It's square and awesome.

Domino's is disgusting and Pizza Hut is barely tolerable. Don't bother asking about Papa John's. I have no idea if there is one close by because I would cook a frozen Tombstone pizza before ordering from there (put some diced tomatoes on it and some extra cheese on it about 5 minutes in, and you will quit ordering from Domino's - they are pretty darn good with those adjustments!). I can't think of a circumstance except starvation where I will eat pizza from Papa John's.

[edhopper]

154. Where do you live

and have you ever had real pizza?

[Aerows]

157. The South

I've eaten Pizza in Chicago and in Detroit. I like Detroit deep dish better.

[edhopper]

158. Can't comment on Little Caesar's

though I have never had a chain pizza that is any good.
It's harder to find good pizza in the South, that's true.
Maybe Yelp in your area will let you know if anyone is trying to do it right.
But it's a free country, so enjoy your LC.

[Aerows]

159. I really do like it

They use a mix of Muenster and Mozzarella as cheese, and it stands up square and yummy like a Detroit pizza. Chicago pizza is good too, but not quite the same crust. Not a big fan of floppy, foldable New York pizza. I know that's anathema to some, but just my tastes.

[edhopper]

161. Unless you had it from one of the great

NY Pizzerias, you probably don't know how sublime it can be.

[Aerows]

163. To each their own

Pizza is just one of those things that different people prefer different ways. You like your Brooklyn, I like a deep dish. We may as well argue whether the sunset or the sunrise is more beautiful. In the end, we both get what we want.

[edhopper]

166. I'm not saying you are wrong to prefer deep dish.

I've had some really good ones. I am saying that you should not dismiss NY Style unless you've had a great one first.

[Aerows]

167. Suggestions? n/t

[edhopper]

169. All the ones I know

are in NYC.
Grimaldi's, DiFara's, John's, Lombardi's.....
What town are you in?

[Aerows]

170. I suppose I should fess up

I grew up in New Orleans. So I'd imagine a piece or two of fairly close NY pie has crossed my lips before.

Still, I'm far away from New York. No matter how Italian the place is, though, I'm sure none of it will ever surpass a NY pizza in NY .

[edhopper]

171. The friends I have in the South

gave up looking for great Pizza. Decent is usually the goal.
Well, if you get to the Northeast you will get a chance to sample some.

[Aerows]

172. If you can't find a good restaurant in New Orleans

You weren't looking for one.

I'll give it a shot when I get the chance. I'm always looking to broaden my culinary horizons even if I do like the lowly Little Caesars .

[edhopper]

174. That is true

NO has amazing food, just don't know if pizza is among the specialties.
Yelp mentions Slice Pizzeria on St. Charles and Dolce Vita which does wood fire Napoli style.

My comment was just about Pizza , not food in the South in general, which is great.

[Aerows]

175. I used to eat at Louisiana Pizza Kitchen on Bourbon (French Quarter)

It has wood fire oven pizza. I believe there are reviews for it. They had olive oil right on the table.

http://www.louisianapizzakitchenuptown.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=65#PIZZA

This one is Uptown. I couldn't find the one in the Quarter.

Oh wait, I found one:

http://www.foodieswithablog.com/?p=535T

[edhopper]

177. hope you can find a good one

Course you can always get a Po Boy or a Muffelata.
And you can't beat Mae's Scotch House.

[Aerows]

179. Nothing beats a muffelata

Yum, yum, yum . Or an oyster Po Boy.

[edhopper]

180. When I was there last

we went to Franks, instead of The Central Grocery.
Sat on the balcony next to St. Joan. Wonderful meal.
Beignet for dessert of course.

[Agschmid]

165. I like it too, guilty pleasure.

[Agschmid]

164. Lol.

[Freddie]

186. Loved Little Caesars

We had one here and they had great pizza and cheap too. All other chain pizza is horrible IMO. Sadly the LC closed here years ago and there's none nearby either. We have several good mom & pop pizza places here (plus the awful chains) but I miss LC.

[Liberal_in_LA]

153. "the grove" in los angeles is hugely popular

That said, I go to malls much less frequently than I did 20 yrs ago

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

168. I was at a mall recently and everywhere there was a seating area there was a sign

that indicated anyone observed loitering for more than fifteen minutes would be removed from the property, so much for "hanging out".

[madville]

178. The enclosed malls here are good

They're good if you want to get caught up in a 100 person brawl on the weekends I mean.

There is a newer outdoor mall that is packed all the time though and has good security.

[GoCubsGo]

183. My local mall is dying.

Earlier this week, I went for the first time in many months. I could not believe how empty it was. Half the store spaces are vacant. I was there to see if I could find any deals on specific items at Sears, which is closing for good, sadly. That's one of the "anchors". JCPenney is another. One of the items I had in mind was a sports bra in my excessive size. The only ones who had one was Dillard's, and they wanted $65. I can get a better-quality one for 1/3 of that price online. And, that's how it pretty much goes with nearly everything I want to buy, at least when it comes to things like shoes and clothing. Granted, it's not just the mall. It's TJ Maxx, Ross, Target, Squallmart... This whole town sucks.

I just hope Penney's survives. They're one of the few places around that still Liz Claiborne clothing--it actually fits me properly.