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KoKo

(84,711 posts)
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 06:32 PM Mar 2014

If you think Putin is bad on GLBT Rights...Check out the New Ukraine Parliament!

Last edited Sun Mar 2, 2014, 07:17 PM - Edit history (1)

Ukraine has not experienced a genuine revolution, merely a change of elites
The new rulers in Kiev, with links to the right, will never tackle the root cause of corruption in Ukraine: poverty and inequality

Volodymyr Ishchenko


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/ukraine-genuine-revolution-tackle-corruption

The far right has also achieved a major breakthrough in the government. Some commentators have warned that their level of representation in the new Ukrainian government is unparalleled in Europe. The xenophobic Svoboda party controls the posts of deputy prime minister, ministers of defence, ecology, agriculture and the prosecutor general's office. Andriy Parubiy, one of the founders of the Social-National Party of Ukraine and a former leader of its paramilitary youth organisation, who later joined the moderate Batkivshchyna party and efficiently commanded self-defence forces in Maidan, is now the head of the national security and defense council.

At the same time, the protest badly fits into the coup label of a well-planned armed seizure of power. The Maidan movement, particularly its paramilitary arm, was hardly controlled by the parliamentary parties. In fact, these parties were regularly trying to pacify the movement, urging compromises with Yanukovych, albeit without much success.

What is most worrying is that the new government cannot control the infamous Right Sector. Its members are now popular heroes, the vanguard of the victorious "revolution". They have guns captured from police departments in the western regions and now, after Yanukovych's toppling, are demanding that the revolution needs to continue against "corrupt democracy" and liberalism. The liberals celebrating their decisiveness and crucial role in the Maidan movement are now discovering the right's reactionary ideas. Recently, the press secretary of the Right Sector gave an interview saying "we need to tell Europe the right way to go" and save it from the "terrible situation" of "total liberalism", when people don't go to church and are tolerant of lesbian, gay bisexual and transgender rights. It is too soon for the Right Sector to move against the new government – it lacks the support. But the group may lead a new insurrection in the event of a rapid and deepening economic crisis. In the absence of any strong leftist force in Ukraine, social grievances will be whipped up by rightwing populists.

At the same time, the leading role of radical Ukrainian nationalists in potential new "social Maidan" will preclude any all-national movement against the ruling class, with mass participation from the east and the south of culturally divided Ukraine. Moreover, they even amplify separatist attitudes and attempts of pro-Russian provocations, as we have seen in Crimea. The full-scale civil war, although not inevitable, is a real threat now.

In this situation, the best policy for the west would be to insist on the peaceful resolution of the interregional conflicts in Ukraine, taking a strong position against participation of the far right in the new government and uncontrolled rightist paramilitaries on the streets. Last but not least, the west could offer unconditional help to Ukraine by cancelling its foreign debt – a popular demand raised by many progressive movements all over the world.

45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If you think Putin is bad on GLBT Rights...Check out the New Ukraine Parliament! (Original Post) KoKo Mar 2014 OP
Kick for an interesting read...different from our MS Cable Media. KoKo Mar 2014 #1
and they're both wrong. doesn't make russia any better. do try not to use GLBTs as pawns... dionysus Mar 2014 #2
! "do try not to use GLBTs as pawns" sibelian Mar 2014 #3
No one here said Russia is any better YoungDemCA Mar 2014 #9
it's been implied a lot, or posited that we are "just as bad", all the time here. dionysus Mar 2014 #12
I meant "no one in this thread" YoungDemCA Mar 2014 #14
oh, okay. in that context you're right. dionysus Mar 2014 #15
The Putin Propaganda copy and paste crowd Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #4
he's dreamy.. and ultra liberally n stuff... stickin it to the meal ol PTB of the west! dionysus Mar 2014 #6
how is pointing out that there are creeps and bigots on both sides in the cali Mar 2014 #8
I agree about the need for the right wingers in Ukraine Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #16
If you recognize that Putin is square in the middle in terms of Eastern Orthodox politics... Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #34
Oh, is that the meme now? YoungDemCA Mar 2014 #10
Yeah, that article is just chock full of Putin Putin Putin. progressoid Mar 2014 #17
Really? Lolol. That's your defense? Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #19
Defense? progressoid Mar 2014 #22
The article is about the reactionary right's seizure of power in the wake of the revolution Scootaloo Mar 2014 #26
There has been a steady stream of exaggerations about malevolence of Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #27
Pardon me if I'm reading you wrong, but... Scootaloo Mar 2014 #30
gays are allowed to adopt in ukraine JI7 Mar 2014 #5
UPDATE: The Banning of Gay Adoption was in 2011 by Ukraine... KoKo Mar 2014 #13
You'll have to be more specific. On what day did this new government in Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #18
I just searched on the Guardian and found no article saying adoption laws were changed Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #21
I searched POSTER #5 's statement about NEW Ukraine Parliament COUP banning Gay Adoption... KoKo Mar 2014 #37
2011 was when Yanukovych was president. pampango Mar 2014 #44
Not if they're in a same-sex relationship, actually Scootaloo Mar 2014 #29
So both Russia and Ukraine are bad when it comes to LGBT rights. Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #7
Agreed. YoungDemCA Mar 2014 #11
They didn't "Invade" Ukraine... They protected their Bases in Russian KoKo Mar 2014 #20
Ok...just looked at a map. Crimea is part of Ukraine. nt Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #23
Yes...it is. Maybe do a Google or Wiki (although their stuff is often partisan or KoKo Mar 2014 #25
I'd like a link about your claim about the adoption rules. Thanks again. Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #24
Poster #5 said that New Parliament introduced it..but they were Incorrect... KoKo Mar 2014 #38
It wasn't MY Claim but Poster #5...JI7 KoKo Mar 2014 #40
So you would support the US pouring 10K troops into Guantanamo and securing the area around it? nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #28
Well, given that Cuba doesn't recognize any US right to Guantanamo... Scootaloo Mar 2014 #32
Same difference. The current Ukrainian government didn't sign that deal with Russia nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #33
So every time the govermnet changes, that invalidates previous agreements? Scootaloo Mar 2014 #35
No, but such agreements aren't a waiver of sovereignty. nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #36
They have a 30 year lease on that base that absolutely no one was threatening. pampango Mar 2014 #45
Svoboda represents the 10% in Ukraine. Putin's party, the majority. joshcryer Mar 2014 #31
But in 2011 in the Ukraine .... KoKo Mar 2014 #39
This eye-opening piece was linked by frazzle: freshwest Mar 2014 #41
"Democracy Now" interviewed Professor Snyder & Nicolai Petro in Ukraine Discussion KoKo Mar 2014 #42
...1 KoKo Mar 2014 #43

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
12. it's been implied a lot, or posited that we are "just as bad", all the time here.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 07:51 PM
Mar 2014

surely you saw this during the Olympics threads?

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
14. I meant "no one in this thread"
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 07:53 PM
Mar 2014

As for the "we are just as bad" crowd, well I tend to mentally filter post from people who can't see that social and political discrimination comes in degrees, and those degrees can make all the difference.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
8. how is pointing out that there are creeps and bigots on both sides in the
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 07:46 PM
Mar 2014

Ukrainian mess, being pro-Putin? The OP says Putin is a bigot. I don't know if the bigots on the Ukrainian right are worse than Putin, but they're not a reassuring bunch and one can only hope that as events transpire, they lose influence.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
16. I agree about the need for the right wingers in Ukraine
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:05 PM
Mar 2014

To be forced into the background by more moderate forces.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
34. If you recognize that Putin is square in the middle in terms of Eastern Orthodox politics...
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:03 PM
Mar 2014

how can you hang all the abuse of the LGBT community on him personally?

Get with the program.

<- Poe's Law

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
26. The article is about the reactionary right's seizure of power in the wake of the revolution
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:47 PM
Mar 2014

We already know that while it was a broad popular uprising with many facets, far-right parties and organizations like Svoboda and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists have capitalized on the change, leaping ahead of the group by bounds.

I don't see anywhere in the article that it cheers Putin, unless you live in a binary world where pointing out the nastiness of a national socialist movement directly translates into support for the man.

"Really? Lolol. You think the Nazis are shit? Why not just crawl into bed with the Bolscheviks, then!"

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
27. There has been a steady stream of exaggerations about malevolence of
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:50 PM
Mar 2014

The protests, opposition parties and right wingers. All done first as cover for Russian-backed Yanakovich and now as cover for Putin.

Fuckwad Putin must not realize the majority of the west has better news sources than The Guardian and RT.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
30. Pardon me if I'm reading you wrong, but...
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:54 PM
Mar 2014
There has been a steady stream of exaggerations about malevolence of the protests, opposition parties and right wingers.


Are you saying there's no "malevolence" worth noting when it coems to the like of Svoboda and their fellow parties and organizations? Like i said, the protests came from all over the place, but these guys are some real pieces of work,.

Also you're not making any case that opposing hteir nastiness is alignment with Putin. That's nonsense.

JI7

(89,252 posts)
5. gays are allowed to adopt in ukraine
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 07:41 PM
Mar 2014

If they take away any rights for gays they should be criticized

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
13. UPDATE: The Banning of Gay Adoption was in 2011 by Ukraine...
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 07:52 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:09 PM - Edit history (2)

However...the New Parliament is still Re-writing their Constitution...and so the Ban on Gay Adoption will remain...it seems even though it was inacted before this RW Parliament took power.

UPDATE:
Ukraine introducing new homophobic law
26/07/2011
Submitted by Insight public organisation

http://www.ilga-europe.org/home/guide_europe/country_by_country/ukraine/ukraine_introducing_new_homophobic_law

----------------------

They've re-written the Ukrainian Constitution...

Like the American Tea Party they swept through overturning Laws and now making it illegal to speak Russian Language in Ukraine...and they pushed through making it Legal to use Nazi Symbols and Organization which had been banned.

It's in articles in the Guardian if you go to their site. It's been reported on "Democracy Now" and elsewhere.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
18. You'll have to be more specific. On what day did this new government in
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:09 PM
Mar 2014

Ukraine pass laws restricting right of gay people including adoption rights?

You may want to keep up with current events. The person trying to push restrictions on gays in Ukraine was the Russian-aligned, now deposed former leader--victor Yanakovich.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
21. I just searched on the Guardian and found no article saying adoption laws were changed
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:11 PM
Mar 2014

I would very much appreciate a link to that information.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
37. I searched POSTER #5 's statement about NEW Ukraine Parliament COUP banning Gay Adoption...
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:13 PM
Mar 2014

but this occurred in 2011 not with the NEW PARLIAMENT. I updated my previous reply to reflect the info, but here's the link...

=====

Ukraine introducing new homophobic law
26/07/2011
Submitted by Insight public organisation

http://www.ilga-europe.org/home/guide_europe/country_by_country/ukraine/ukraine_introducing_new_homophobic_law
While Ukraine had ratified numerous international and European legal acts on human rights, including UN Resolution on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity, on June 20th 2011 Members of Parliament of Ukraine have registered a draft Law of Ukraine "On Introduction of Changes to Certain Legislative Acts of Ukraine (regarding protection of children rights on the safe information sphere)”, which is absolutely discriminatory. The draft law tends not only to break safety and fundamental human rights of lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders (LGBT), but also encroaches on freedom of speech in general. This bill proposes to introduce an amendment to the Criminal Code of Ukraine, Law of Ukraine "On protection of public moral", the Law of Ukraine "On Print Mass Media (Press) in Ukraine", the Law of Ukraine "On Television and Radio", Law of Ukraine "On Publishing" regarding establishing criminal liability for "propaganda of homosexualizm". For example, the draft law establishes the liability for distribution of works and use of the public broadcasting to "propagandize homosexualizm". In fact, the bill strengthens censorship, restricts freedom of speech, which is the basis of mass media, and legalizes violence against homosexual people. Should be noted that this bill uses and aims to legalize pathological term "homosexualizm".

Explaining the necessity of introducing this law, one of the authors, Member of Ukrainian Parliament, Yevgen Tsarkov, said: “"When you read magazines, you can find there a typical homosexual propaganda – an article on same-sex love, interviews of Elton John and Boris Moisejev. [...] For such actions one was fairly sentenced to imprisonment in the Soviet Union! We want to enter the European Union, where the same-sex marriages are actively promoted. For example, in Berlin on the initiative of the City Department of Education such phenomena is explained to pupils, they get special textbooks. It's Sodom and Gomorrah!" It should be mentioned that the only criticism from Members of Parliament towards this bill consists not in condemning human rights abuses, but in inability to control sanctions fulfillment.

Homosexuality was decriminalized in 1991 in Ukraine. But today there is a rapid growth of homophobia in society, which is strengthened by the public hate speech of political and religious leaders, by incitement of violence against homosexual people.

LGBT and human rights organizations have enounced concern and anxiety about high level of homophobia among Members of Parliament, about rousing hatred towards LGBT and the absence of anti-discriminatory legislation. Activists point out that lesbians, gays, bisexual and transgender people do not require exclusive rights, but they insist on respect for common human and civil rights.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
44. 2011 was when Yanukovych was president.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 10:06 PM
Mar 2014
However...the New Parliament is still Re-writing their Constitution...and so the Ban on Gay Adoption will remain.

If they are rewriting the constitution, how do you know what the rule on gay adoption will be?

One thing you can be sure of is that there won't be any gay adoption in Russia (and Crimea now?) any time soon. Gay adoption is legal in many European countries. If Ukraine ever joins the EU it will be more likely to legalize gay adoption than if it is more closely associated with Russia.
 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
29. Not if they're in a same-sex relationship, actually
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:52 PM
Mar 2014
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Ukraine#Adoption_and_family_planning

I would cite the legislation, but... well, i don't speak Ukranian and Cyrillic makes DU go a little haywire. Going by the Wiki, Ukraine isn't going to win any awards on the subject.

I have no idea about KoKo's claims of constitutional changes towards an even more hardline stance, though.
 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
7. So both Russia and Ukraine are bad when it comes to LGBT rights.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 07:44 PM
Mar 2014

Still doesn't excuse Russia for invading Ukraine.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
20. They didn't "Invade" Ukraine... They protected their Bases in Russian
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:11 PM
Mar 2014

oriented Crimea! They were defending their bases. You can't trust Fox News, CNN or MSM to not confuse you on these issues. Get a Map of Ukraine and see where Russia's interests are and the population of Crimea. Putin didn't over-react ....any more than USA did during the Cuban Missile Crises many years ago.

This is on Putin's border...and USA would and have done the same thing as Putin did. I'm not a Putin Apologist but the take over of the Ukraine Parliament by equivalent Tea Baggers doesn't bode well for stability.

I wonder if you've even read the articles from Guardian or watched Democracy Now for the information which isn't Propaganda that we get from our invested interest media run by Corporatist Interests who work for NeoCons who never saw a country they didn't want to topple or invade for PROFIT.

Obama has tried to work against these interests but they are powerfully entrenched. It will take more than Obama's Power to work through decades of this disinformation and deception. He couldn't do it by himself and it's up to US to break through this crap we are sold which is nothing more than Neo-Con Ambitions we had with Bush/Cheney/Rummy that Obama has to deal with because those folks are tied into Wall Street and Military Industrial Complex that only feeds itself.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
25. Yes...it is. Maybe do a Google or Wiki (although their stuff is often partisan or
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:40 PM
Mar 2014

put out by MIC interests.)

Try to find a "History" site from Google. They are out there from reputable University Research.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
38. Poster #5 said that New Parliament introduced it..but they were Incorrect...
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:21 PM
Mar 2014

It was done in 2011 according to this site and others:

Ukraine introducing new homophobic law
26/07/2011
Submitted by Insight public organisation

http://www.ilga-europe.org/home/guide_europe/country_by_country/ukraine/ukraine_introducing_new_homophobic_law

While Ukraine had ratified numerous international and European legal acts on human rights, including UN Resolution on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity, on June 20th 2011 Members of Parliament of Ukraine have registered a draft Law of Ukraine "On Introduction of Changes to Certain Legislative Acts of Ukraine (regarding protection of children rights on the safe information sphere)”, which is absolutely discriminatory. The draft law tends not only to break safety and fundamental human rights of lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders (LGBT), but also encroaches on freedom of speech in general. This bill proposes to introduce an amendment to the Criminal Code of Ukraine, Law of Ukraine "On protection of public moral", the Law of Ukraine "On Print Mass Media (Press) in Ukraine", the Law of Ukraine "On Television and Radio", Law of Ukraine "On Publishing" regarding establishing criminal liability for "propaganda of homosexualizm". For example, the draft law establishes the liability for distribution of works and use of the public broadcasting to "propagandize homosexualizm". In fact, the bill strengthens censorship, restricts freedom of speech, which is the basis of mass media, and legalizes violence against homosexual people. Should be noted that this bill uses and aims to legalize pathological term "homosexualizm".

Explaining the necessity of introducing this law, one of the authors, Member of Ukrainian Parliament, Yevgen Tsarkov, said: “"When you read magazines, you can find there a typical homosexual propaganda – an article on same-sex love, interviews of Elton John and Boris Moisejev. [...] For such actions one was fairly sentenced to imprisonment in the Soviet Union! We want to enter the European Union, where the same-sex marriages are actively promoted. For example, in Berlin on the initiative of the City Department of Education such phenomena is explained to pupils, they get special textbooks. It's Sodom and Gomorrah!" It should be mentioned that the only criticism from Members of Parliament towards this bill consists not in condemning human rights abuses, but in inability to control sanctions fulfillment.

Homosexuality was decriminalized in 1991 in Ukraine. But today there is a rapid growth of homophobia in society, which is strengthened by the public hate speech of political and religious leaders, by incitement of violence against homosexual people.

LGBT and human rights organizations have enounced concern and anxiety about high level of homophobia among Members of Parliament, about rousing hatred towards LGBT and the absence of anti-discriminatory legislation. Activists point out that lesbians, gays, bisexual and transgender people do not require exclusive rights, but they insist on respect for common human and civil rights.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
40. It wasn't MY Claim but Poster #5...JI7
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:47 PM
Mar 2014

I checked it out and they were incorrect. It was the 2011 Ukraine Parliament not the Coup Parliament.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
28. So you would support the US pouring 10K troops into Guantanamo and securing the area around it? nt
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:51 PM
Mar 2014
 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
32. Well, given that Cuba doesn't recognize any US right to Guantanamo...
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:57 PM
Mar 2014

It's something of a different situation.

They send back the rent checks we mail 'em, for crying out loud.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
35. So every time the govermnet changes, that invalidates previous agreements?
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:07 PM
Mar 2014

While I support that in principle when talking about transitions from autocratic to democratic governments, I can't hold to it when the change is between two democratic governments, or from democratic to autocratic. For that matter, international law has consistently held that in either case, new governments are bound to the agreements of old ones... which is why several Latin American countries still owe money for the massive loans their now-deposed dictators took out decades ago, which is why the current governmet of Egypt holds to several Ottoman-era treaties, etc.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
45. They have a 30 year lease on that base that absolutely no one was threatening.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 10:14 PM
Mar 2014

And why can't Russia protect its base from inside the base like they always have in the past? Are you seriously suggesting that Ukraine was going to attack Russia's naval base so they had to take over the whole province to keep this from happening? Could you provide a link with some background on this theory?

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
31. Svoboda represents the 10% in Ukraine. Putin's party, the majority.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:56 PM
Mar 2014

The vast majority, even. The anti-gay law was passed unanimously.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
39. But in 2011 in the Ukraine ....
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:28 PM
Mar 2014
See the post above when I researched it after Poster #5 posted the New Parliament had introduced it and folks asked for a link. I went ahead and searched because I got questions in my reply. I corrected my answer but the other things this Parliament is doing will just continue the RW influence. That's why I equated it to when the Tea Baggers rammed through their agenda in 2010 here in US and in our States through ALEC and KOCH AGENDA.

I took poster #5 at their word that New Parliament Banned Gay Adoption. But, they were incorrect about that so I searched and Ukraine passed it in 2011. So...Old Parliament in Ukraine no better than Putin for LBGT Rights and according to article in my OP they might even be worse on other issues concerning "the RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE.," now that they have their Coup.



freshwest

(53,661 posts)
41. This eye-opening piece was linked by frazzle:
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:55 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:03 AM - Edit history (2)

to frazzled.

Ukraine: The Haze of Propaganda


by Timothy Snyder

From Moscow to London to New York, the Ukrainian revolution has been seen through a haze of propaganda. Russian leaders and the Russian press have insisted that Ukrainian protesters were right-wing extremists and then that their victory was a coup. Ukraine’s president, Viktor Yanukovych, used the same clichés after a visit with the Russian president at Sochi. After his regime was overturned, he maintained he had been ousted by “right-wing thugs,” a claim echoed by the armed men who seized control of airports and government buildings in the southern Ukrainian district of Crimea on Friday.**

Interestingly, the message from authoritarian regimes in Moscow and Kiev was not so different from some of what was written during the uprising in the English-speaking world, especially in publications of the far left and the far right. From Lyndon LaRouche’s Executive Intelligence Review through Ron Paul’s newsletter through The Nation and The Guardian, the story was essentially the same: little of the factual history of the protests, but instead a play on the idea of a nationalist, fascist, or even Nazi coup d’état.

In fact, it was a classic popular revolution. It began with an unmistakably reactionary regime. A leader sought to gather all power, political as well as financial, in his own hands. This leader came to power in democratic elections, to be sure, but then altered the system from within. For example, the leader had been a common criminal: a rapist and a thief. He found a judge who was willing to misplace documents related to his case. That judge then became the chief justice of the Supreme Court. There were no constitutional objections, subsequently, when the leader asserted ever more power for his presidency.

In power, this leader, this president, remained a thief, but now on a grand, perhaps even unsurpassed, scale. Throughout his country millions of small businessmen and businesswomen found it impossible to keep their firms afloat, thanks to the arbitrary demands of tax authorities. Their profits were taken by the state, and the autonomy that those profits might have given them were denied. Workers in the factories and mines had no means whatsoever of expression their own distress, since any attempt at a strike or even at labor organization would simply have led to their dismissal.


There is much more at the link, it's well worth the read:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

It descibes an oligarchy that was strangling the people of Ukraine. That is why we saw so many peaceful protestors as it began and didn't stop. And former Red Army Ukrainians came to the aid of students, along with Russians and all the groups we can imagine. Gay activists worked with them.

The author, is described as:

Timothy Snyder is Housum Professor of History at Yale and the author of Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. This month, he is to deliver a Philippe Roman Lecture on the origins of the Holocaust at the London School of Economics. (March 2014)

Titles he has written are:
#
Fascism, Russia, and Ukraine
March 20, 2014
#
Ukraine: The New Dictatorship
February 20, 2014
#
‘In the Cage, Trying to Get Out’
October 24, 2013

http://www.nybooks.com/contributors/timothy-snyder-2/?tab=tab-blog

He asks these questions:

Has it ever before happened that people associated with Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian, Armenian, Polish, and Jewish culture have died in a revolution that was started by a Muslim? Can we who pride ourselves in our diversity and tolerance think of anything remotely similar in our own histories?

This article changed my mind where none of the blustering opinions at DU could have. I still want a just outcome for all these people and for Svoboda to be soundly smacked down. I see why the EU wants to deal with the new government and not Yanukovych.

I still see no villains other than on the personal level, and appreciate even more that we are NOT going to war over this. Now I think some have been misled and I admit to great confusion on this. I'm thinking Yanukovych did need to be taken out of power.

** I also understand why they may think that way. In their minds, they are fighting a war from long ago. They do not know a new way to deal with their own corrupt oligarchical rulers, so they must revert to old enemies.

JMHO.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
42. "Democracy Now" interviewed Professor Snyder & Nicolai Petro in Ukraine Discussion
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 12:01 AM
Mar 2014

[bI watched it and it was a good discussion between the two Professors. (they had somewhat differing views)


http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/24/a_coup_or_a_revolution_ukraine

AMY GOODMAN: To talk more about the crisis in Ukraine, we’re joined by two guests. Timothy Snyder is professor of history at Yale University, author of Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. His latest piece for The New York Review of Books is headlined "Fascism, Russia, and Ukraine." He joins us from Vienna, Austria. And with us in the Ukrainian city of Odessa is Nicolai Petro, professor of politics at the University of Rhode Island. He has been in Odessa since July 2013 as a Fulbright research scholar.

Nicolai Petro, let’s begin with you in Ukraine. Do you agree with what the president, or now the former president, Yanukovych, said, that this is a coup?

NICOLAI PETRO: Yes, it’s pretty much a classical coup, because under the current constitution the president may be—may resign or be impeached, but only after the case is reviewed by the Constitutional Court and then voted by a three-fourth majority of the Parliament. And then, either case, either the prime minister or the speaker of the Parliament must become the president. Instead, that’s not what happened at all. There was an extraordinary session of Parliament, after—it was held after most members were told there would be no session and many had left town. And then, under the chairmanship of the radical party, Svoboda, this rump Parliament declared that the president had self-removed himself from the presidency.

AMY GOODMAN: And what are the forces that brought this about? And what’s happening right now in Ukraine? You’re not in Kiev; you’re in Odessa. What is even happening there?

NICOLAI PETRO: The situation here in Odessa is pretty quiet. I would say that what led up to this is a coalition of three distinct forces. One is the group that started at the end of November of last year, genuine civic frustration with the government’s decision to delay the signing of the EU Association Agreement. This was then seized upon by the parliamentary opposition, who joined belatedly and pressed the government for further concessions. And finally, the actual coup was accomplished thanks to the armed intervention of extreme nationalists, led by the Right Sector. And the fact that they were so instrumental in accomplishing this change of power has put them in the driver’s seat. From now on, whatever political decisions are arrived at will really be at the sufferance of the Right Sector.

AMY GOODMAN: Professor Timothy Snyder, would you agree with this assessment of what’s taking place in Ukraine right now?

TIMOTHY SNYDER: I think parts of it are exactly right. I think I would disagree with certain parts of it. For one thing, when it comes to the question of how these changes came about, it’s a little bit reductionist just to mention opposition politicians, the right wing in Europe. The movement—the protest movement at the Maidan included millions of people in Kiev and all around the country. It included people from all walks of life, both genders. It included people from—included Muslims. It included Jews. It included professionals. It included working-class people. And the main demand of the movement the entire time was something like normality, the rule of law. And the reason why this demand could bring together such people of different political orientations, such different regional backgrounds, is that they were faced up against someone, the previous president, Yanukovych, whose game was to monopolize both financial and political as well as violent power in one place. The constitution, the legitimacy of which is now contested, was violated by him multiple times, and most of the protesters agree to that.

The second thing that I would modify a bit would be this idea that what happened is a coup, where now somehow everything is determined by the right. The Parliament does not—is not represented. Nobody from the Right Sector is in Parliament. The people who are making the decisions in Parliament come from the conventional political parties. If you look at the people who are on top, who are they? The acting president is from the southeast. He’s a Russian speaker. He’s a Baptist pastor, by the way. The two candidates for president—Klitschko and Tymoshenko—are both Russian speakers. Klitschko studied in Kiev. Tymoshenko is from the southeast. Let’s look at the power ministries. If you were a right-wing revolutionary, this is the first thing you go for. Who now occupies the power ministries? The defense minister is a Russian speaker who is actually of Roma origin, of Gypsy origin. The interior minister is half-Russian, half-Armenian. And the minister of internal affairs is a Russian speaker from the far southeast, from Zaporizhia. So, it seems extremely unlikely to me that this government is something which could possibly have been dictated by nationalists from western Ukraine. This government, if anything, is tilted towards the south and towards the east.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think this could lead to a split between East and West Ukraine, Professor Snyder?

TIMOTHY SNYDER: No, on the contrary. The one thing which could lead to a split—sorry, the one thing that could lead to a split between East and West Ukraine would be some kind of intervention from the outside. We have—we have good polling data, taken over the course of the last 20 years, from all regions of Ukraine. In no region of Ukraine do more than 4 percent of the population express a wish to leave the country. I’m pretty sure in most states of the United States the percentage would be much higher than that. The normal response is about 1 percent.

Ukraine is a diverse country, but diversity is supposed to be a good thing. It’s a multinational state in which both this revolution and the people who oppose this revolution have various kinds of ethnic identifications, various kinds of political commitments. The person who started the demonstrations in November was a Muslim. The first people who came were university students from Kiev. The next people who came were Red Army veterans. When the regime started to kill people, the first person who was killed was an Armenian. The second person who was killed was a Bielorussian. In the sniper massacre of last week, which is what led to the change of power, which is what directly led to the change of power, one of the people who was killed was a left-wing ecologist Russian speaker from Kharkiv, Yevhen Kotlyar. Another was a Pole. The people who took part in this protest represent the variety of the country. The people who oppose these protests also come from various parts of the country. This is an essentially political dispute.

And I think the good news is that once Yanukovych was removed, violence ceased, and now we are on a political track in which power is no longer in the hands of an interior minister who is killing people and instead is within the chambers of Parliament. Parliament has renewed the 2004 constitution, which makes the system a parliamentary system, and has called for elections in May. And in those elections, people from all over the country will be able to express themselves in a normal post-revolutionary way. And then we’ll see where things stand.

AMY GOODMAN: Last week, Democracy Now! spoke to Russia scholar Stephen Cohen, who said Ukraine is essentially two different countries.

STEPHEN COHEN: Ukraine is splitting apart down the middle, because Ukraine is not one country, contrary to what the American media, which speaks about the Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. Historically, ethnically, religiously, culturally, politically, economically, it’s two countries. One half wants to stay close to Russia; the other wants to go West. We now have reliable reports that the anti-government forces in the streets—and there are some very nasty people among them—are seizing weapons in western Ukrainian military bases. So we have clearly the possibility of a civil war.

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AMY GOODMAN: That’s Stephen Cohen. Nicolai Petro, would you agree?

NICOLAI PETRO: Professor Cohen is right that there are very serious differences between the regions, and they go deep to the historical memory of not just what World War II was about, but what the end of the Russian Empire was about, what the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Poland, the parts of Ukraine that were under it, were about. Professor Snyder is, however, also correct on the fact that much of the country does not want to dissolve. There is a commitment to being Ukrainian. And it would be indeed to everyone’s advantage here if the country—if the Parliament really did reach out to the segments of the population that are not—that have been, effectively, disenfranchised by the last coup. And, however, I would tend to disagree, because the first steps, within 24 hours, that they’ve taken are exactly the opposite.

Let me give you an example. The repeal of the law allowing Russian to be used locally, that’s the main irritant in east-west relations within the Ukraine; the introduction of a resolution to outlaw the Communist Party of the Ukraine, which effectively is the only remaining opposition party in Parliament; the consolidation of the powers of the speaker of the Parliament and the acting president in a single individual, giving him greater powers than allowed under any Ukrainian constitution; of course, the call for the arrest of the president. Now we have, effectively, a Parliament that rules without any representation from the majority party, since most of the deputies of the east and the south of the country are afraid to set foot in Parliament. Meanwhile, all across the country, headquarters of parties are being sacked by their opponents. This is the stage which we have for the elections for May 25th. Will they be fair? There’s no money, according to the prime—the acting president and speaker. Vigilante militias routinely attack and disperse public gatherings they disapprove of. News broadcasts—yesterday Inter was interrupted by forces claiming to speak for the people. What do you think?

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