General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"Let's work to end racial discrimination" is a better approach than "whites are so privileged".
"White privilege" has become a cliche that almost invariably derails potentially productive discussions. The reason being, of course, that in this economy there are a great many whites who do not feel especially "privileged". Of course we all acknowledge that racial discrimination exists. And it goes without saying that here on DU, at least, we all want to end it. But approaches such as "stop and frisk needs to be ended because it is racially discriminatory" are much more likely to lead to a productive discussion than "White privilege! You're white! You're privileged! Acknowledge it! I SAID ACKNOWLEDGE IT!"
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that's maybe the part you're not getting
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)on the part of the cops who participate. But we can still work to end it without constantly using the "white privilege" cliche.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)will also tell you that they don't discriminate and have never benefited from discrimination
in other words, it's not the wording they object to--they are denialists as to the very substance.
they're not interested in hearing about systemic and institutional racism that benefits them
"I oppose racial discrimination" whoop dee shit, so says every other person in the country
1awake
(1,494 posts)I believe "white privilege" exists. I disagree that it benefits 100% of the white population because.. you know, its impossible. That statement of 100% is so ridiculous of course its going to derail things.
The other parts of your comment are also incorrect for the very same reason.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Squinch
(50,774 posts)1awake
(1,494 posts)everyone into a specific group based on only one factor and ignoring anything else. I get what it is... I already numerous times stated that I agree that it exists. All I have and am saying is, saying it effects ALL people is not possible. Maybe it has effected most, or even effected the vast majority. But ALL is statistically impossible.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)1awake
(1,494 posts)CANDO
(2,068 posts)I'm a 49 yr old Caucasian. I'm a truck driver. I've never been sitting opposite a minority in being considered for any of the glamorous trucking jobs I've had. I've never been granted a mortgage without having to be run through the wringer by the mortgage company. What should I do to placate those who INSIST OVER and OVER that we (white America) don't get it or understand. Do you want my job? Should I somehow by osmosis or other means give you or another minority my 25 years of commercial trucking experience, which I've only gained because I'm white and privileged? Do you want my house? God knows the only reason I have it is because I'm just a pampered white guy. Am I being a little over the top? Probably. But we do "get it" that there has been societal and cultural and institutional biases toward minorities of all varieties. Hear this once and for all.....I personally am not responsible for your perceived slights in this world. I didn't stop you and frisk you. I didn't deny you a job. I didn't deny you a mortgage. I didn't stop you for DWB. I don't slight you in any way. I don't cross the street when I see you coming. I work and have worked along side you and have always been friendly and respectful. I strongly supported and proudly voted for President Obama and would do so again a thousand times. You get nowhere by constantly accusing working class whites of getting where they are by white privilege. I do my job and obey the law and wasn't granted special status based on the color of my skin. You insisting otherwise garners you nothing but potential future political enemies. Are you employed? If so, shut up and do what I do, go to work every day and live your life. Are you not employed? If not, I guarantee you you aren't trying hard enough. Go get a fucking CDL. It's not difficult. And I promise you no one will give two shits what color your skin is. If you've got a pulse and don't do drugs, you're hired. Rant over...
Squinch
(50,774 posts)And pointing out that someone else talking about the discrimination they have experienced is an act of meanness toward you is part of what is being discussed here.
And your assumption that people are unemployed because they aren't trying hard enough, or if they are employed they are not working as hard as you, is pretty ugly.
CANDO
(2,068 posts)The endless gender war threads are meaningless. The endless hand wringing over societal barriers is tireless in the extreme. I don't care if you're white. What is the POINT? What do you want from me and many millions like me who have NEVER participated in discriminatory activity? We are aware and agree any and all discrimination should end. But the constant drumbeat of "you're so privileged" has to have a fucking point. The 2.5 million miles I've traveled thus far in my trucking career sure as hell didn't come from any special privilege. So stop telling me and millions more of white America that our experiences and existences were handed to us on a silver platter. And to reiterate, if you aren't employed and can't find a job in your field, you're lazy and don't want a job. Anyone with a fucking pulse can get a CDL and drive a truck. My brother has a 4 year degree and drives a truck. I love the mantra...'there's no jobs', BULLSHIT! There are jobs, just ones people think they shouldn't stoop so low to do. I'm done with this pissing contest...You win!
Squinch
(50,774 posts)has anything to do with laziness? Why are you making the assumption that this has ANYTHING to do with that?
Here's a point: People get to talk about their experiences and the obstacles they face. They especially get to talk about it when simply having a dark skin color puts their children into danger.
Here is what is not the point: your job, your opinion about whether black people are lazy or not (!), whether it is OK with you that other people talk about their experiences.
And here's another point: Your over-reactive fury about the fact that this is even being discussed, though you yourself insist that it has nothing to do with you, shows a certain... um... presumption.
CANDO
(2,068 posts)Except according to Squinch, who happens to be my personal minder....says I'm not allowed to express mine, or is off topic, or just doesn't agree with hers. Whatever....I'm done with this thread.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"People get to talk about their experiences and the obstacles they face. They especially get to talk about it when simply having a dark skin color puts their children into danger."
If they do that, they are likely to get much less pushback.
But if they start talking about what a cakewalk MY life is because of MY skin color AND my gender AND my religion AND my sexual orientation. Then they are talking, not about their OWN obstacles or experiences, they are talking, instead, about people like ME.
Well, having some fifty years experience being a person like ME, I happen to be an expert on THAT topic, and will feel obliged to set the record straight when people start talking about it.
Are we talking about YOUR obstacles or MY privileges? They are NOT, imo, two sides of the same coin.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Denial of the existence of white privilege by white people, keeps feeding the privilege.
You can walk down any street in America and not get bothered by the cops. I cannot. You have the privilege of going about your business without fear of being harassed just because of the color of your skin. I have been harassed in my own neighborhood and told to go back to Africa, ni@&er. This was in Tustin, California, by a car full of young white males. I have never been to Africa.
How many times a similar situation happened to you?? It's hapoened to me too many times to count.
I've also been called slave, Cassie girl, spook, shadow, tar baby and many assorted names by my all white classmates.
I actually had a teacher quit working at my school when I out scored all of the white kids on the CTBS. All of them in the whole school. And maybe the county.
She literally asked me how I did it, and called me a sneaky black cheat. Never saw her again.
This will never happen to your daughter if she is white. That's white privilege.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)is that white privilege too? Or just male privilege?
White kids get called names all the time.
You make the point of the OP again.
"You have the privilege of going about your business without fear of being harassed just because of the color of your skin."
If you argue that "people should not get harrassed because of the color of their skin" you will probably get most white people to agree with you - even the Republicans.
But if you flip it around and say "people who do NOT get harrassed because of the color of their skin are privileged". You make it sound like white people SHOULD be harrassed because of the color of their skin.
You are in luck then, because often white people ARE. First, by this very notion, white people, because of the color of their skin, are lectured about their privileges, and then harrassed if they have the temerity to object. Why DU should be ashamed for even allowing such people to be part of this rainbow coalition.
Further, my brother tells the story of being in Phoenix and having a bad cold. He went to the store, fairly late at night, to get some cold medicine. When he got to the counter, the clerk asked him "what are you doing here?" He said, "I need some cold medicine." And the clerk said "You are white. You shouldn't be in this neighborhood. If you value your life, you will leave quickly."
Yeah, sure ANY street in America. Walking.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)even the gods contend in vain
bravenak
(34,648 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)CANDO
(2,068 posts)What you are describing is out and out racism and bigotry. For those things that you described, they are a travesty and are shameful. The fact that I'm not subjected to such things, how is that "privilege"? It's a horrible situation for sure, but I hardly feel "privileged". Like I'm being granted something I didn't earn. Do you not see how some, if not most working and middle class whites will reject the very idea that we are "privileged"? I think you need a more effective way of getting what it is you are asking for. Accusing others of "privilege", sure as hell isn't going to get you any where. I do my job, I pay taxes, I obey the law. The fact I'm less likely to be harassed by law enforcement doesn't mean I'm "privileged", it means you are being discriminated against. Accusing me of "privilege" implies I need to be brought down to a level which I'm more appropriately suited for.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That's too bad, you should calm down.
You have the privilege of not being discriminated against because of the color of your skin.
onpatrol98
(1,989 posts)Quote: Do you want my job? Should I somehow by osmosis or other means give you or another minority my 25 years of commercial trucking experience, which I've only gained because I'm white and privileged?"
Response: Do you really think an African American person on this site wants your job? For some, they wouldn't want the pay cut...even with your 25 years of experience. For every single one of us, we have worked for what we've gotten. But, it's good to have the truth finally out. To ease your fears...we don't want your job...your woman...your neighborhood...or whatever the heck else you've got that you feel is being threatened on this discussion board.
Wait...maybe you want your discussion board, back...
JustAnotherGen
(31,688 posts)You are correct. I couldn't take the pay cut.
clarice
(5,504 posts)onpatrol98
(1,989 posts)The poster asked black people on DU if we wanted him/her to GIVE us his job. Really... And, I'm the one being ugly? Seriously??? We don't want his job. We have our own jobs. Damn good ones, often. We have our own things. We've worked hard for them. The notion that somehow we're sitting out here, possibly pining away for something possessed by someone else is utterly ridiculous. It's laughable.
It's like a 1950s comment or assumption. But, it's friggin' 2014. I want to put the world at ease. We don't want your stuff. We probably wouldn't like your stuff. Whatever stuff it was. We've got our own stuff. You keep yours. We'll keep ours.
It's like when some little old lady grabs her purse to protect it...when you enter into an elevator with her. I want to laugh out loud. It's an offensive notion.
CANDO
(2,068 posts)What is the fucking point of constantly bitching about white privilege? What are you gaining? What are you asking for? What do you want me to give up from my privileged life which I didn't earn because I'm white and privileged? Get it? Understand it? Drop the whole white privilege thing if you've nothing further to add or ask for. There's no fucking point in alienating fellow working and middle class Americans, especially the ones who are ideologically on your side. That.....IS MY FUCKING POINT! I know you don't theoretically want anything from me like my glamorous trucking career or my house.....I'm just asking a simple fucking question of ......what good does it do to alienate and instigate and agitate people who in no way shape or form are part of what you and others see as a privilege? Yeah, it's been a hell of a "privilege" to pound my ass over our nation's highways and byways for the past 25 years! Some fucking privilege it's been. The only difference is I didn't go on some webforum and constantly bitch and whine that someone has a better gig, and they got it because they are "privileged". Get a fucking job and obey the law and pay taxes and shut the hell up about anyone else being "privileged". It's a simple formula really.
I'm shocked!!!!
onpatrol98
(1,989 posts)You are not ideologically on my side. People ideologically on my side do not consider this position to be one of "constantly bitching". We may at various times during the past several years voted for the same people and even supported some of the same goals. But, clearly, you are not on my side.
Because I was on Democratic Underground, I assumed our ideologies were aligned. But, quite frankly they are not. I don't have to "shut the hell up" about anything. No white male or white female has had the right to tell a black woman to "shut the hell up" in many years and actually expected to have it happen. That power simply doesn't belong to you and hasn't for quite awhile.
It is unfortunate that you have been feeling some discomfort over this discussion. Growing pains. But, you can't stop the conversation. It will go on. It's okay if it goes on without you. Quite frankly, it's not about you. It's about people of good faith who want to understand each other.
You asked me...what I'm asking for? I'm not asking anything of you. In the future, when I include the words "white privilege" in a post. I'm asking something of the people standing around you, who are listening to me. It would be pointless of me to ask anything of you. Hopefully that will give you a bit of peace of mind. I am listening to you. I am considering the words that you say. They have been educational for me. Your hostility is not new to me.
For the record...the only one coming across as "bitching and whining" in our exchange has been you. As for alienation and agitation...to suggest a person of color..."get a job, obey the law, pay taxes, and shut the hell up???" If that tone does not come across as alienation and agitation, I'm not sure what does". But, I do have a clue as to why you think you have the right to throw that tone my way. And, why you think I "don't" have the right to say the things I do?
I have a job. I obey the law. I pay my taxes. But, no...I'm afraid I won't shut the hell up.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)then it cannot exist.
"White privilege exists" means "whites are privileged"
If whites are privileged
and hfojvt is white
then hfojvt is privileged
So, even if you can find a white male who is getting the sh*t beaten out of him an average of once a week, then people here will STILL argue that he is privileged, with white privilege AND male privilege.
WHY? (a sensible person might ask).
Because that person would be EVEN WORSE OFF if they were a black male getting the sh*t beaten out of them once a week, OR if they were a white female facing the same beatings.
Yep, Reginald Denny, what a privilege he enjoys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Reginald_Denny
1awake
(1,494 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)exercising that privilege, kills and tortuuing the 'right' to do so because, well, what is the claim? Lots of other countries have reason to feel threatened, many of them, by US, yet they are not invading other people's countries killing their citizens, stealing their resources etc. But that's American Privilege for you. And mostly we invade countries that are populated by people of different ethnicity.
So anyone claiming 'White Privilege' who is part of American Privilege, who supports politicians who promote the deadly exercise of that Privilege, is simply a hypocrite. Because, using their logic, and I'm sure the victims of our 'privilege' won't be breaking down who is or is not actually privileged, we are ALL privileged, regardless of the color of our skin, to most of the rest of the world.
The truth is, it is as ridiculous to hold ALL Americans responsible for this display of 'privilege' as it is to single out one group, not even that much of a majority anymore here, and slap that label on them.
But it's fun to try to make people feel guilty. Not working on me, I have to say, nonsense theories that use extremely broad brushes never have, never will.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)then I have some bumper stickers to show you.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)legislatures or governors have affirmatively stated that they don't oppose racial discrimination?
they won't even cop to supporting anti-GLBT discrimination.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)End ALL discrimination, not just one kind. Discrimination against any "class" of people is wrong. Be it race, gender,sexual preference, income level education level and a whole long list of things we discriminate against.
End them all!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Squinch
(50,774 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)I have been around here plenty long enough to know what is going on and who is doing it. This is latest attempt at shit stirring. The old stuff was getting too obvious and tiresome. You were getting too much push back. Time for something new.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)So, yeah, It can't be my position, now could it?
For some reason my position on Equal Rights is never mentioned. That makes me think there might be some ulterior reason for that.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)has something to do with you personally?
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Let's work to end discrimination on irrational grounds, a handful of which - race, sex, sexual orientation etc - are used too often.
But there are many grounds on which people should be discriminated between - actions, abilities, opinions etc.
ChazII
(6,198 posts)this issue. I agree with you 100%.
I reserve the right to discriminate based on a person's sex when considering weather or not to have intercourse with them.
RC
(25,592 posts)But what does the weather have to do with anything, unless one is doing it outside?
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)It's about being able to go to 7-11 for Skittles and iced tea and come back alive.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)My point is that the "white privilege" cliche only tends to derail potentially productive discussions about how to stop armed racists from murdering black teenagers.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)split hairs about, "you're insulting me by using that term," if we ourselves began to use it and show that we considered it to be an unquestionable problem, the discussions would not derail.
The term "white privilege" will become cliché when white privilege no longer exists.
Beringia
(4,314 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I mean, I can understand that it may serve as a cathartic release for some folks.....but it's not working as an educational tool for the general public. It has, in fact, failed. Even perhaps miserably, dare I say.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)on top of that!
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)important than a black teenager's fucking life! Makes me want to vomit!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'm not saying you're lying, btw. I just don't think it's accurate, that's all.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)is because some people would rather lecture white people about their privileges than they would instead talk about the lives of black children.
And since when are progressives the heartless bastards who don't care about people's feelings?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)But when people whine about a goddamn two-word phrase, given what's at stake it makes me slightly nauseous.
And it's almost undeniable that Martin, were he a white teenager, would never have been stalked and murdered by Zimmerman.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)others cling to it like it's the holy grail and that everybody must bow down and worship it.
And it is very deniable, since the words "stalked" and "murdered" are subject to debate.
Now Ranisha Jones and Jalisa Reed, both black teenagers, absolutely WERE murdered, but almost nobody knows and nobody cares.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)on negative stereotyping of young black men as aggressive and threatening. Zimmerman was the one with a police record and a history of violent behavior, Martin was the one walking home with Skittles and iced tea in hand. Given that, how likely is it that Martin was the aggressor, unless one simply assumes that teenaged black males are violent by nature?
But as always, YMMV. I admit I have strong feelings on the subject.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Discrimination isn't all economics.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)how to discuss racism?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)...have typically been the domain not of black people, but of snotty white college kids and the kind of people who make it easy to use "political correctness" as a term of opprobrium against the left. You know who you are.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Squinch
(50,774 posts)Do you really want to take that position? Have your kids gone to a deli or a movie lately and come home alive?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)are typically not among blacks, but among white college kids.
So he didn't take the position you claim.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:56 AM - Edit history (2)
"In my experience, discussions about white privilege...
...have typically been the domain not of black people, but of snotty white college kids"
Point out the claims about substance.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)that is all.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I have no idea what snotty white college kids say. I know what a very diverse group of adults have been saying for 25 years. Maybe you need to get out more?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)I'm 43 with a college-age (actually past college) daughter. You wanna try that again?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I don't think any one side should be dominating anyone else, to be honest. Let's try to work things out as a community, would be my view.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)It's a no brainer and fighting against using particular words and description to explain it is counter productive to the problem.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)Maybe the unpleasant feelings people in certain groups get when they hear certain expressions really does mean that the use of those awfully mean and hurtful expressions are a significant obstacle to resolving the problems that the oppressed groups have to deal with on a regular basis.
I mean, maybe he's right. Maybe the reason we are STILL dealing with so much of this bullshit is cause we just haven't placed a high enough priority on being considerate of the bad feelings of these poor, put-upon members of higher-status groups.
1awake
(1,494 posts)though in practice it will significantly slow down reaching the goals.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)I thought it was heavy enough that I wouldn't need to tag it.
1awake
(1,494 posts)I was addressing your point underneath the sarcasm.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it - hobbit709
Someone brought this up last night on another thread and was greatly enjoyed by all.
RC
(25,592 posts)to antagonise and belittle others, so they can then play the victim. Not all white males have "privilege".
Instead of tearing other people down, how about trying to have them help instead? You know, level the playing field? Help each other? But then, that makes it that much harder to play the victim, doesn't it?
How many times do I have to post that women are people too, deserving of the same rights as everyone else? How many times do I have to post that everyone is deserving of the same Equal Rights. All I, and others of the same mind, get from a certain Group here is derision, insults and belittling when we do. What does that tell you?
redqueen
(115,096 posts)Yes, they do.
This is why these discussions are necessary. No true equality will be reached as long as some people are blind to the inequalities that don't affect them and which they refuse to acknowledge.
RC
(25,592 posts)That is where it got its start. Blacks have been for centuries been kept down in the lower class. People here are confusing two different, but related concepts to denigrate us so-called "uppity white males", just because we are White, no matter what we say or what we do.
"White Privilege" is now the latest DU whipping boy to prove the victimhood of those that relish their victim" status and use it as a club against anyone that does not agree with them.
You are not looking to build up, you are looking to tear down. To continue the discrimination and the derision it causes, instead of working to eliminate it.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)who derail discussions on important issues with complaints about their hurt feelings.
"White Privilege has more to do with Class than anything." So how many working-class white men get beaten or shot by cops for no good reason, while a chorus of Internet shitbags cheer the brutality on?
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)...I can't help but think that the person making this statement is using the imposed standards of the so-called "1 percent", ie the very wealthiest of all Americans (who, ftr, are very much a disproportionately white male group of people), and then using that 1 percent as the barometer of ALL Americans-including the many white men who, to be sure, are not in that top 1 percent.
Not only is this willfully ignorant of the effects of social stratification (ie a multi-tiered, incredibly complex social class system), but it's always used as the weapon of choice whenever discussions of racism and sexism are brought up. A weapon that is used specifically by those who don't want to talk about racism or sexism, who deny that racism and sexism even exist, who insist that "It's only about economic class!"-which, in this context, is really code for "Only the opinions of white men matter in discussions about economic marginalization, social oppression, and political activism-just like in every other context in society."
We can talk about the problems faced by "ordinary Americans"-if those Americans, of course, happen to be white, straight, and male. One is reminded of the American Federation of Labor (AFL) in the late 1800s/early 1900s, a huge working-class organization that for some time, explicitly prohibited from its membership and organizing activities those workers who weren't white, native-born, and male.
One of the many ways that white men have privilege-and it relates to our discussions here-is that when they don't like something about the current system, the dominant institutions of American society and culture provide platforms for them to speak their concerns first, long before the concerns of people who aren't white/and or male. White male privilege is not having the need to create an alternative set of norms and channels to have political efficacy within the system, because the system was set up by and for white men, and that bias is deeply built into it.
So, this is my message to my fellow white men: Society is changing, and is changing fast. Just because you will no longer have the only or even dominant voice at the table, doesn't mean that you are being silenced. It simply means you have to listen to other perspectives besides your own, a perspective that you have taken for granted as being the culturally dominant one for most of this country's history.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)In fact, speaking from personal experience, rejecting "white privilege" theory actually helps one gain a more nuanced and accurate look at social stratification.
Also, when I hear "All white ppl have privilege!", I can't help but think myself that the person speaking has still retained certain of the invisible standards imposed by the .01%. But here's the thing: it turns out that this is actually true, unfortunately(at least to some extent). I hate to say this, but if anything, "white privilege" has actually played quite well into the hands of the .01%, because all it has done, even if contrary to its original intention, has ended up causing confusion, discord, and arguments amongst the activist left.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)Remember his lament: " If only my father had been born in Mexico, I could be President now." I think of that often when reading some of these threads on DU.
Good post with a number of important points. I hope people read it.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)white privilege is in effect. from traffic stops, etc., on down.
but where I grew up, it's lily white, with near zero minorities in the town or surrounding area.
If you're talking to someone who has only known that environment, and mention white privilege, the non rich would say "ya, I'm flat broke and living in a trailer, tell me how privileged I am", and feel insulted.
it's hard for people to understand the concept if they haven't ever experienced it or lived in a place where it's in effect.
just my two cents.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)the assumption that "If I don't see it, it doesn't exist."
dionysus
(26,467 posts)in their world, they see the wealthier white people have innate privilege, versus the poor, also white folks living in run down rental units and trailer parks.
but, if minorities moved into the community, they'd soon see how white privilege exists.
but from where they are, they just don't get it, it's a concept that's hard for them to understand.
it was enlightening for me to move from a small, basically an all white, semi rural area to a diverse city with people of all races.
Number23
(24,544 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"If I believe it exists, then it MUST, even if I am unable to show it to the people who supposedly have it."
I mean, I kinda wish they DID exist, because then I would be cashing them in.
It's like you are telling me that there is an invisible bank that I cannot see, and in this bank, I have an account with $1,000,000 in it.
I mean, cripes, my score on this chart is like 85. http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2012/10/chart-how-privileged-are-you.html
I should be king of the frigging world.
+25 white
+25 male
+20 straight
+5 Christian
+20 CIS
+20 United States
+25 able bodied
+10 tall
even with a few minuses
-25 poor
-20 ugly face (maybe it's just my personality though, you never know)
-20 social autism
85, I mean, that's still a damn good score. I should have at least $850,000 in the privilege bank. Especially if you consider that "poor" was my choice, and NOT the class I was born into. My birth score was 120.
Shit yeah, I would love for those 85 points to be worth SOMEthing. If these privileges really existed, then I'd have several winning lottery tickets.
I'd love to be able to cash in those chips.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"Just because you will no longer have the only or even dominant voice at the table, doesn't mean that you are being silenced."
The only or dominant voice at the table.
Here's a fricking clue. ALL WHITE MEN DO NOT SPEAK WITH THE SAME VOICE!
A whole sh*tload of white men voted for Obama - TWICE.
Now you may wish to drive white men away from the Democratic Party by implying that we should all be speaking with the same voice, but I'd rather see our party win elections.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)"not all white males have privilege" you are underscoring the notion that you don't understand the crux of what is being discussed. When discussing privilege, we aren't talking about silver spoons and having it made out of the womb. The notion is that as a white male, you will not encounter the same obstacles that people who are not white and not male routinely face. It isn't that you will not encounter obstacles, but that there are some obstacles that you will never encounter because you are white and male. And because you don't encounter them, you don't think about them, and likely aren't even aware of them.
If you think we're trying to tell you that your life is free of struggle or hardship, you are missing the point entirely. It isn't a matter of antagonizing or belittling anyone. It really isn't. There isn't other language that will define this more succinctly than privilege.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)The notion is that as a white male, you will not encounter the same obstacles that people who are not white and not male routinely face. It isn't that you will not encounter obstacles, but that there are some obstacles that you will never encounter because you are white and male. And because you don't encounter them, you don't think about them, and likely aren't even aware of them.
Yep.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)you are merely revealing your lack of understanding of the entire picture.
There isn't other language that will define this more succinctly than privilege.
I can think of at least a few things that work a LOT better than privilege. Just plainly pointing out disadvantages of PoC or some other disadvantaged group, without resorting to arcane attempts at wordsmithing, for one, works a lot better, at least for those people willing to listen & learn. "Privilege" just causes issues in the majority of cases.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)And since, as they say, you can't prove a negative, that partly accounts for the lack of awareness.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)If people continually misinterpret what you're saying, then chances are...
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I realize it's not easy to be dispassionate, especially if one has actually experienced racism in their life(and yes, some on here have, no doubt). But there are just too many people with an ax to grind, that it really can be difficult sometimes.
arthritisR_US
(7,269 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)that People of Color, LGBTs, etc., are generally going to have to deal with more hardship, or risk of hardship, than I might. But framing it in terms of "white privilege" does have its problems, and the issue is, many defenders of the term aren't willing to come to terms with that, it would seem.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)I think I am going to faint at the threat and danger of that.
and roll me eyes!
Squinch
(50,774 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)& it's mostly white college students/academics promoting it.
Who's the biggest name in "white privilege" promotion? Tim Wise, a white Jewish academic from an upper-middle class background.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)racism wrong" because the term isn't the domain of black people exclusively.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)word. Does that mean that people can't really talk about democratic issues because they are not French or Greek?
And if Republicans say that Democrats are doing things wrong, we can't dispute that because of the word origin?
No sense at all.
And do you really not believe that white privilege exists?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)questioning the term does not equal "telling black people how to fight racism".
What don't you get?
Squinch
(50,774 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)and prescriptive vacuity doesn't constitute a denial of racism.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)Uh...okie dokey.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Squinch
(50,774 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Squinch
(50,774 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)Others disagree.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)with this consciousness will help you personally to empathize, understand, and work against it's perpetuation.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)That's the crux of this entire argument.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)And what is your point, anyway?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Call him 'middle class' if you like, I don't care.
My point seems obvious: questioning/challenging the term "white privilege" does not equal "telling black people how they are fighting racism wrong".
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'd like to add, btw, that in my experience, a large majority of the people pushing this theory have been white college kids who only recently came to grips with reality. Hell, I went thru that phase once.....but for me, that's all it was. A phase.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)Now THAT'S white privilege!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)"Now THAT'S white privilege!"
I'm sorry, but that's just pathetic, dude.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)DU is a liberal board; naturally we hold ourselves to a higher standard than we would outside of this board. I would agree that bringing up white privilege randomnly with people out on the street is unlikely to be a winning strategy, but here at DU talking about White Privilege helps us realize and see how the way we look at and interact with the world.
Bryant
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)but I haven't seen any of them.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I've seen plenty.
Bryant
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)Republicans are racist? Florida is racist? Racism exists out there, but I have absolutely nothing to do with it? Is that what you want to hear?
One of the reasons why discussions of race on this board are so poor is that we have so few African American members. Think about that. This is a site that is called Democratic Underground, that seeks to get Democrats elected. AAs are the single most loyal Democratic voting group. Yet we have very few on this site. Threads like this are part of the reasons why. You are insisting that your discomfort with the term white privilege is more important than their life experiences, more important than racism. Think about how that must feel.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)good goddamn about anyone else's!
TheKentuckian
(24,949 posts)Blacks that deviate from your point of view, not so critical and seemingly assumed white.
Of course I don't even remotely think the phenomenon described is not in play but I see no upside to poor communication of the concepts and no matter how painfully accurate you deem the phrase to be, if it makes the intended audience put up their shields then it is not only going to lack impact, it will be counterproductive.
If the aim is to preach to the choir then it is fine, if the idea is to open minds and increase empathy and eventually the paradigm then the prospects are much more dubious.
Seems to me that you get more from owning your privilege than I do, you're still getting the gusto, I'm still on the shit end but you get to be a good egg that gets it and can rage against those who lack your "unique perspective" or whatever.
You aren't supporting me or even your own message, it seems likely that your efforts are making the fields less fruitful. The message is resonating like a lead balloon floats in where it is most likely to be received, that means your sales pitch is ineffective not that the people who must be sold must be different. That is not reality.
Somewhat to the side, I also think the people pushing the hardest on the phrasing don't like to focus much on class even though class disproportionately impacts minorities and does so in no small part from centuries of institutional racism and a culture that made some of my ancestors almost less than livestock ingrained into the fabric of this country even before it was founded. A country carved out by ruthless acts of genocide and wanton murder in pursuit of wealth.
Enforcing poverty is the #1 tool to beat everyone else down and the unspoken threat to keep everyone in line and also the single most effective way to shrink the gap between the so called privileged and those of us born into suspicion and second and third class status.
I also have to mention that it is mostly white folks that are invested in the terminology, in fact not one black person in my life has ever used it in real life family, friends, coworkers, in school, on the bus, not anywhere ever.
I assure you, we didn't have a black people's meeting and decide that this term is how we are going to fight racism so you are also guilty of telling black folks how to fight this shit.
I am more under the impression you support black folks that validate what you think than what black people think, hiding behind those you agree with and usually agree with whatever the issue is.
Those you agree with seem heavily weighted with folks who consider themselves "upwardly mobile", who I think are keen on protecting their newly found class privilege that they think they have more than earned and do not fancy being reduced now that they finally get their turn at bat.
I understand the sentiment, I work very hard myself but I think the perspective is off, shortsighted, and for most people of no functional benefit.
I think the existence of the "big club, we aren't in" is a much bigger problem than who has access to that club.
Further, the term comes with an implication that I'm not tolerant of, that not being pulled over for driving with the wrong skin color, or being followed around Macy's, or being red lined into certain neighborhoods, or having some meth mouthed loser scramble to lock the door as I pass, or rational sentencing, or not having to work like a slave to tread water while others seem to play all day, or any of the thousands of little paper cuts on the sole are some kind of boon rather than what should be default.
There seems to be some implication that the answer could be to lower into the darkness some rather than to lift others up into the light. Sometimes gender equity seems the same, it sometimes seems that lowering men's pay 23% is just a good a fix as raising women's 23%.
Bringing whites down a peg or two is not my agenda but rather to be raised a peg or two, they are not the same but the most important thing is that the message is not effective because it causes the people who need to receive it to tune out and go defensive.
I think your marketing department needs a reboot.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)I would think you would want to have these discussions in the African American group. I don't recall seeing you post in there.
And from your post is seems clear you haven't read the threads in there either.
TheKentuckian
(24,949 posts)I can think for myself, pick up a phone, see a family member, or talk to people face to face.
I subscribe to the DU group, it seems mostly to be an extension of the BOG with pretty much the same cast and as such my statement stands.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)and if you had read the threads in that group, you would know that your statement that only white people are concerned about the term white privilege is false.
I also find your comment that the BOG and the AA group are the "same cast of characters" strange.
TheKentuckian
(24,949 posts)BainsBane
(53,003 posts)TheKentuckian
(24,949 posts)same folks you tend to agree with.
Just like you aptly pointed out, all black thought is not encapsulated in my family, relations, friends, neighbors, or people I encounter in life, all back thought is not contained in your DU running circle either and that the thought you put a premium on is not those of black folks but of those that you tend to agree with more generally that happen to be black.
Further evidenced by running to jump to some absurd assertion that I would be stupid and dishonest enough to even imply only black people like the President. Yeah, that is why I voted for Obama three times, because I'm black. What is that even supposed to mean?
I think I was more than clear, I question the tactic and it's potential for any impact in my life.
Your argument has been that whites don't have any business telling black folks about how to combat racism but here you are telling a black person that you are right and I need to agree with the tune you want to play.
I'm also here to tell ya that what black folks think about the message isn't that critical to real world impact because we don't have the privilege to surrender or evolve beyond. It is white folks that have to process the message and internalize it, if they don't then all we get is preaching to the chair.
An effort to educate that doesn't give a damn if the audience receives it is stupid no matter how apt it is.
If we want folks to get it then we have to drop the pride enough make sure the message is accessible and digestible, even if doing so means accepting the reality of the "privileged" yet again to do it.
I also think the word choice implies that we all don't deserve to be treated with dignity, respect, and decently and instead such treatment is some undeserved bonus for being born a certain way, when my view is that I'm being denied franchise as an equal citizen.
There is a pull them down implied in the terminology rather than a lift us up.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)I was talking about DUers. Obviously it relates to Democrats. That was the entire point of the thread and my response. No one ever pretended to be talking about anyone else. Nye Bevan's OP is about discussion on DU. Mine was in response to what I have read on DU in the AA forum. It's isn't about conservative or Republican African Americans, your family, or the broader community more generally. It is about discussion on DU.
For the record, I am not a member of the BOG group and don't post there, but I certainly am not going to malign those who do. You are the one who said the AA group and the BOG group are made up of the same people. The AA group is a much smaller group comprised principally of African Americans. Then you get pissed off at me because I ask if you think only AAs support Obama, after you said the two groups were the same.
Where have I done this? Show me:
Your argument has been that whites don't have any business telling black folks about how to combat racism but here you are telling a black person that you are right and I need to agree with the tune you want to play.
Look, if you agree with the OP that he and a few other white men on DU should be able to control all discussion, that's your business. But to get pissed off at me because I disagree with that and then FALSELY claim I am telling you that you have to agree with is bullshit. I have said repeatedly the post you first responded to was directed at the OP. It asked what he considered a productive discussion about race, which he never answered. You launched into a series of accusations that I was supposedly telling you to believe something when I wasn't even addressing you. I never even knew of you when I wrote that post.
You go on to say this: Yet you say this:
The whole point of denying white privilege is so they can pretend racism has nothing to do with them. That is what Nye Bevan has insisted that he is in no way affected by racist ideas that are endemic to American society and is essentially above it all. His whole point is NOT to process. When racism has nothing to do with anyone, it doesn't exist. There is no racism. People love to point fingers, in this case the likely target is Republicans. If not for Republicans there would be no racism. I think we both know that isn't true.
The other point is your quote above contradicts your statement to me. You are comfortable with Nye controlling discussion about racism on this board, yet insist my disagreeing with him is somehow telling you what to think. If even that argument were true, it's ideologically inconsistent.
The other point is in every single discussion about racism, these guys make it all about themselves. The responses to this thread are a prime example. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4531063 That's the same for women's issues. There as another thread were someone decided that people shouldn't refer to themselves or others according to the racial discriptors used today because we live in a color blind society. When an African American woman joined the discussion, a poster told her that she shouldn't be participating because she was "out of her element." http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10024580035&alert=96#post96 You couldn't make that shit up, yet you're pissed off at me?
The fact is they want to control the discussion because they always see their own egos as more important than any issue, than racism, equal rights, or whatever. They literally think how they feel reading a thread is more important your life experience, that of your family, or any one but themselves. That is evident in how they respond to those issues. But hey, you want to be pissed and me and make up shit claiming I told you what to think. It makes zero sense to me.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)That's your answer to this? I highly recommend The Kentuckian's whole post:
...
Your argument has been that whites don't have any business telling black folks about how to combat racism but here you are telling a black person that you are right and I need to agree with the tune you want to play.
...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024575218#post382
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)I haven't told him he needed to agree with anything. That is blatantly false. The point to which I responded asked what the OP thought productive discussions of racism would be. The quote you provide is his first response to me, it is illogical to claim I was telling him anything. I didn't know he existed. I was addressing another poster. I then pointed out to the Kentuckian's that his contention that only white people care about the term white privilege is false, which anyone would see if they read the African American forum. You are clearly heavily invested in views that absolve you of any role in racism in American society. Don't lecture me about what "nerve" I have. Your agenda couldn't be more transparent.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)I don't need your "Cliff Notes" version of it.
Those weren't my words I posted, those were The Kentuckian's. So apparently he does think you told him he has to agree with you. I get that you're denying it, all the while you're still doing it.
Absolve me? Oh, absolve me, absolve me! LOL! Wtf-ever. I'll "lecture you" any time I see fit, you do it to others constantly. (Again, the hypocrisy; it's not even possible to get through one post without tripping over that.)
Yeah, I'm "heavily invested" (what that means, I don't know, am I writing a book on it or something?) in the position that your pet term is fad-psych fuzzy-thinking bullshit. I believe in good old-fashioned discrimination, institutional and otherwise (which I'm against btw). The rest is trendy blather, imo.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)to whom you can point to affirm what matters most in the world, your own privilege, while you continue ignoring the views of all the other posters of color on this site. Others have said they find the posts you so whole heartedly endorse, like this OP and Quinnox's thread, to be an offensive attempt to tell them what to say or carry on conversations about their identity without including them. Their concerns are just too "trendy" for you to bother with. I can't imagine to ever having the nerve to dismiss someone else's experiences with racism as trivial or trendy. Talk about having a nerve.
As for blowing off (your charge against me when you carried, deliberately and falsely out of context, a quote into a separate thread), you have blown off every other poster of color in this forum. You have shown that you care not even a little about their points of view.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)All of this boils down to... there is a difference of opinion. Oh, the horror! Will we survive it?
And btw, all of this controlling-what-people-say-nonsense that you keep repeating... it isn't even possible and it doesn't mean anything. No poster here can control what another poster says. Obviously. (only Admin possibly, in a much different sense)
Yes, believe it or not, I'm allowed to quote you in other current threads on the same subject. Since you "forgot" the link of the post you referred to, and chose instead to just characterize it to suit yourself, here's the link...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024577556#post133
Lastly, how the hell would you know what I care about? And how is it your job to communicate that for me? Are you my press agent? Didn't think so. Again, what a nerve! It never ends.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Begone from GD, you and your inconvenient opinions!
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)I said that because he is attributing to white people exclusively views that are commonly discussed in the African American forum.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)My hat is respectfully tipped to you, fellow DUer.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)It wasn't addressed to you and I did not know of your existence when I wrote the post to which you objected. What I have done is spend a fair bit of time reading in the African American forum and seeking to understand how those members feel. Your contention that only white people care about these things is not born out by posts in that forum. You may indeed disagree with me, which is fine. I never claimed or would begin to imagine that all African Americans think the same way. Your statement that only white people care about the concept of white privilege or these threads telling AA members what they are allowed to say in public is simply false, as you can see if you read any of the posts in the AA group.
Why you are more angry at me than at those who insist black people have no right to speak as they choose about these issues strikes me as strange. I don't claim to know which forms of racism matter. I don't experience racism and wouldn't presume to determine some serious and some trivial.
Your whole point about bringing white people down makes no sense to me. Acknowledging privilege doesn't bring anyone down. I loose nothing by acknowledging racism around me. Some, however, obviously are invested in making sure they never have to hear the points of view of anyone who challenges them. These same people hostile to the voices of people or color also are hostile to feminism and equal rights overall. When I see something I find problematic, I have a right to speak out, just as you do. What you do not have a right to do is attribute false motives to make claims that are easily showed to be false by reading in the AA forum.
You have said you don't read in their because they are the same people in the BOG forum. Tell me what you find so objectionable about supporting the President of the United States? This is a Democratic forum, after all. The presumption is that everyone is a Democrat.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I though we were supposed to like having a democrat as president.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)ones who need to change.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)"Awareness" only goes so far, particularly when jawboning those who are already aware.
geardaddy
(24,924 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Which would accomplish... exactly what? Denying the ugliness of the world we live in helps no one at all.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)because it allows people to dismiss it as not being relevant to them.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)You are not made to feel 'other' and 'not welcome' every day. every single day. on the basis of the skin you're in if you are white. That is white privilege. It isn't saying that we white people have it easy. It's saying that some obstacles simply don't present themselves because we are white. You will never walk past two stores on your way to buy a soft drink because of the hostility you know you will encounter at those stores simply because of your blue eyes. You won't. That is privilege.
Privilege. If you have an issue with the word, you have some learning to do.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Then I'm afraid you have some waking up to do.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)here to see that phrase, they're more than welcome to use the 'trash thread' function
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)It's more of a dispassionate observation that squawking "white privilege" rarely results in productive discussions about racial discrimination.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)geardaddy
(24,924 posts)BainsBane
(53,003 posts)In railing against white privilege, you make clear that you see your own ego, and indeed privilege, as more important than the oppression of African Americans. You are saying your feelings are more important than the experiences of African Americans and that everyone must lie by pretending white privilege doesn't exist to assuage your ego.
You make yourself part of the problem by continually declaring that the views of African Americans don't matter, that racism has absolutely nothing to do with you. Every single white person is inculcated with racist ideas, and when you refuse to confront them, you choose to perpetuate racism.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Some people are unaffected by it, others are disadvantaged by it. Very few benefit.
If racial discrimination ended tomorrow, most white people wouldn't notice the difference.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)What degree of acknowledgement is necessary before moving to phase two, and what should phase 2 look like?
My suspicion is that no one really knows and that's why we're stuck at the easy part ("acknowledge it!!" phase.
I hereby acknowledge white privilege. There, Now I've done my part, so I can just keyword hide threads about it.
I assume that when I need to pay attention again - the point at which someone suggests what we're going to do about it - different words will be involved.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I am often astounded that there are some that are so heavily invested in this not being true ... I guess if one acknowledges this one has to admit the depth of racism in the US.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)Class and race are two separate axes of privilege, while gender and sexual orientation are others. Race and class are not the same, and you are conflating the two.
I get what you want to do here. It's not me. Racism is all the fault of someone else. I have nothing to do with it. Well that's bullshit. We all have something to do with racism. We are all raised in a racist society and we all internalize those ideas. The issue is whether one examines them and tries to do something about it or continually pretends racism is all the fault of others.
Whiteness does carry privilege. Your ancestors were not slaves. Nor were mine. They were not prohibited from voting until 1965. We do not face a higher likelihood of being stopped by police, arrested, convicted or given the death penalty simply because of the color of our skin. That is an incontrovertible fact, just as wealth carries privilege, as does maleness and heterosexuality. That you are white does not mean you are wealthy and the term white privilege doesn't imply that you are.
As long as you think combating racism is all about pointing the finger at others rather than examining oneself, it will continue in full force.
Given there are only a handful of African American posters left on this site because they have been made to feel so unwelcome, I for one and sick to death of white people moaning about how they don't like to be reminded of privilege. I'm as white as they come, and I see no reason to be offended at the term white privilege because I know self examination is essential to combatting racism. I see a lot of people on this site who make a point of telling African Americans their perspectives don't matter, that black people should be "honored" by racism, like dinners of watermelon and fried chicken. It's time for people to quit their whining about how they don't have everything on the planet and the fact there exists a few wealthy African Americans means that white privilege doesn't exist. This is supposed to a liberal site, for Christ's sake. This continual whining about how beleaguered white men are by having to hear about privilege is unbecoming. Think about what it's like to be the target of racism day in and day out and quit feeling sorry for yourself.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)then carry on. However, I respectfully disagree that this is the best approach to the issue.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)Do you understand that race and class are not the same thing? A person can be poor and white, or wealthy and black, but the fact is that blackness carries a far greater probability of being born and living ones entire life in poverty. Do you get that basic point?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)But there are plenty of DUers who don't like the phrase "white privilege" because they are white and they don't feel "privileged". I don't see a contradiction here.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)You may not feel privileged, but you carry privilege by virtue of being a white male. I carry privilege by virtue of being a white female. Neither of us has the experience of being followed throughout a store when we go shopping because of the color of our skin. We aren't stopped while driving simply for being black. We aren't feared because of the color of our skin. Those are obstacles we do not have to deal with in life, and that gives us a certain privilege in comparison to African Americans. Can you acknowledge that?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Much of white privilege is invisible to whites because it is the default of their existence. They don't realize that others are treated differently, because they are not them. Whites don't experience the world of black Americans. There is no way they could have the experience of black Americans, who have to deal with things in American society that whites don't. This does not mean that whites can't have terrible difficulties, only that blacks with the same difficulties will have additional ones.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)goes beyond not understanding to not caring.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)"I don't want to be bothered thinking about this. Go away."
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)"Go away." Exactly. They are succeeding in making this site more white and more male all the time.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)BainsBane
(53,003 posts)People say it all the time. They site the fact they aren't wealthy as evidence that they are not privileged. I assumed he had some basis for not assuming privilege. If that's not it, what is he saying? White people aren't really privileged? Race makes no difference? If it's not based on class, what is it? That would make his OP make even less sense.
That one doesn't "feel privilege" means nothing. People never "feel" privilege. They assume it. They assume they are entitled to what they have and no one dare question it, which is precisely what the OP is doing. He is making clear that his ego matters more than anything else. He can't bear to have the fact point out that he like every other white person in American bears some benefits from racism. I really don't see how the concept is so difficult to understand. This whole OP mantra about don't talk about white privilege is itself a stunning demonstration of privilege.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)BainsBane
(53,003 posts)to distinguish the influence of race and class. Clearly they have not. To claim there is no such thing as white privilege or that they don't benefit from it shows they don't understand how race and class operate along different axes. Comments that white privilege doesn't exist because Beyoncé and Oprah are wealthy, as I have seen posters on DU say, show they don't understand the basic distinctions.
When I make an observation that people are conflating two concepts, that is not the same thing as saying they said explicitly race and class are the same. They are conflating the two. When one conflates, they don't understand distinctions.
I find all of this perplexing: that I have to explain the difference criticizing someone's exact language and observing an assumption or issue underlying their analysis is completely bizarre. Then the fact that we have to argue something as basic as white privilege confounds me. I don't understand how it is possible to have had any higher education in the past forty years and have not explored ideas of race and class.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)they think race and class are the same thing -- or would think so, if they "thought the issue through" (again, pretending that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, kneejerk, non-thinking).
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)And you accused me of saying someone had said race and class were the same. I assumed the insistence that no one should speak about white privilege was a result of conflating race and class, but I suppose it could be because some are just plain racist. Somehow I thought it better to give them the benefit of the doubt. If you insist I was wrong, so be it.
All I hear is a lot of self pity and absolutely no concern for the experiences of those subject to racism. I am sick to death of all the excuses people come up with to justify their own impenetrable entitlement. It would also be hard to notice that the same people who have so much angst about how badly they are treated by members of color raising issues of white privilege also feel themselves terribly beleaguered by women and sexually abused children. They have a habit of standing up for the privileged above equal rights and make clear the concerns of the majority of the nation and insignificant in comparison to their own.
I am one white person who is repulsed by this stunning demonstration of entitlement. You say it's a fully thought out and deliberate position rather than a lack of understanding. That means there is a clear understanding of how their posts are received by non-white members of this site, which is as a hostile attempt to drive them off the site. I am standing up to say I value their contributions a thousand fold more than the white men who spend their time whining about how they shouldn't have to be burdened by the views of the majority of the population of this country.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)The OP simply thinks it doesn't spawn productive discussion.
But you can't hear, or won't hear, and insist on inventing your own explanations, all of which amount to saying the other person is racist or stupid, basically.
My own objections to the term are:
1. divisive
2. disappears the role of the ruling class in founding and perpetuating racist policies and institutions and the very concrete and enduring ways they benefit from it (as opposed to the average white person who while deriving some minor benefit is also harmed by racist policies);
3. disappears class analysis
4. is individualistic
5. offers no avenues to change the situation other than the individualistic "accept that you are privileged and work to change things" - how? with who? all these individuals "activists," where is the movement?
5. offers no good reasons for white people to give up their "privilege" -- if it's really privilege, why would they want to give it up? most people don't willingly give up their privileges.
6. no evidence that it accomplishes anything in the real world.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 28, 2014, 12:43 AM - Edit history (1)
that they shouldn't raise issues of concern to them is also divisive? I consider it's damned divisive. In fact it's hostile.
There is a concept called intersectionality. Class is indeed important but it is not all encompassing. If the world were composed entirely of white men, as some here seem to think, then class could operate as the sole means of analysis. That is not the case. Class alone cannot explain the experience of racism that affects even wealthy African Americans. It doesn't explain why African Americans are arrested more often than whites, even though their incidence of criminality is no greater. It doesn't explain why their sentences are harsher or why they are more likely to receive the death penalty. It doesn't explain why killing a black person is far less likely to earn someone than death penalty than killing a white person.
It is not "individualistic." I can't even begin to imagine what you mean by that. It is simply another subject position, another mode of analysis that deals with groups of people, not individuals.
The only way we can change anything is by examining how we are influenced by racism. Every single one of us grows up exposed to racist ideas. All of us. In order to combat racism, we must confront those ideas within ourselves. The whole impetus of denying white privilege is to externalize racism, to pretend it is something that exists entirely outside of us. Republicans are racist; Floridians are racist; but I am above reproach. It's a fallacy.
No evidence? My god. The evidence is everywhere. It's in the history of slavery, the very notion that the concept of freedom for whites emerged because of slavery. It's present throughout the history of this country post-emancipation as well, all the way to he present. Every African American member of this site has experienced a whole host of manifestations of oppression that you and I never will, regardless of income level. That you and I are not subject to racism gives us a certain privilege over African Americans. Its evidence is everywhere, to sentencing discrepancies between crack and powder cocaine to redlining.
Ultimately denying privilege is about one thing: maintaining privilege and perpetuating racism. It elevates the ego of the white man above the lives of people of color. It declares that their experiences don't matter. What is most important is that I never be made to feel uncomfortable or reflect on my own role in perpetuating racism.
The only reason to give up privilege is because of social justice. If you're looking for benefits for yourself, you're not occupying the same political space as the rest of us. I support equal rights for all because that is the right thing to do. I need not gain anything in return other than knowing I am working for a better society. That is the same reason I support gay rights. I don't need to be convinced that I should be given something as a result. To do otherwise would make me a bigot, and that I cannot tolerate in myself.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)2. I know what intersectionality is.
3. It *is* individualistic. It's directed at individual white people, who are advised *as individuals* to see the reality of their white privilege.
Once they see it, they are directed to (and I more or less quote posters at DU): "just be aware at what others go through," or "work for change". That's it.
Excuse me, I already knew that much 50 years ago. What do the proponents of white privilege actually bring that's new, that's radical, that's activist? Not much so far as I can see. As I said in a previous post, it's a "shopping for a better world" individualist orientation. There's no movement, there's no direction, just a focus on individual selves who either have or have not been enlightened as to their white privilege. The only fervor that exists is in the conversion of the benighted to the correct party line. After that, it's up to the converted individual.
4. The rest of your post is about racism. There's no necessary connection between acknowledging racism, understanding racism, fighting racism, and adoption of the label "white privilege".
5. You say you support equal rights because it's right. That's the same reason people all through history did, and they didn't carry the banner of white privilege. What does your banner bring to the table? How does it further anything? I don't see it.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)BainsBane
(53,003 posts)The OP is a lecture: If you talk about racism, don't mention white people because I don't like to be reminded that I benefit from racism, and my feelings are more important than oppression of African Americans. African Americans, if you're going to speak in public, don't you dare say anything that reminds me of my own privilege.
We get the point loud and clear. What is most essential is that you never be confronted with the reality of the world around you. We must lie about racism to make you feel better about yourselves. Everyone must stay silent about the reality of racism because your determination to never have your sense of entitlement challenged is more important than the experiences or lives of those who are subject to racism.
I am sorry you find reality so off putting and that those of us who acknowledge it are "uber-righteous."
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)That gets right to the heart of things. And it applies to so many issues, not just racism.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)1awake
(1,494 posts)just not in this country. Just saying. Maybe there is a time limit on that?
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)That we even have to discuss something so basic with people who claim to be liberals is astounding.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Thank you for this.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I'm also not entirely sold on the term "white privilege". Not because it doesn't exist. Simply because of word choice.
Language is important, and "privilege" is a heavy word. Here are three ways to state the general idea:
--White people have privileges that minorities don't
--White people have advantages that minorities don't
--Minorities have disadvantages that white people don't
These are all pretty much synonymous, but they are worded in ways that are sequentially less likely to rub a white person who has is struggling economically the wrong way. Language matters.
Many working class white people don't feel that they occupy a "privileged" position in our society. And they are justified in this belief. This post, for example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024575218#post187
I feel that using the term "privilege" can create an unhealthy dynamic where groups that are at a disadvantage are somehow competing about who is more oppressed. Yes, I understand your point about the different axes of privilege, but that is an intellectual point. And, given that the same concept can be communicated and described without using the word "privilege", I don't see the advantage to using this unnecessarily loaded word.
BTW, it doesn't bother me personally, but that's because I actually am what you could call "privileged" -- good education, career, grew up comfortably, never been discriminated against, etc. But I think that's part of the problem. The intellectual types who end up discussing white privilege tend to not be working class, and so "privilege" doesn't carry the same weight. But I can easily imagine a white person struggling on a minimum wage job, turning on the TV, and watching a bunch of well-educated, well-dressed people (of multiple races) who earn good money and all have careers which are empowering rather than exploitative, talking about the supposed "privilege" that comes with being white, and not feeling too great about it.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I'm a white woman. I have always had it easier than any black, hispanic, asian woman.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Discussions about racism are inherently uncomfortable. My point was more about which approach leads to more productive discussions.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)not just stuff we can dismiss as stuff other people do, and stuff that has to be intentionally done. I think we need to be challenged to recognize the stuff that happens without us doing anything, and even if we try for it not to be there.
I am astounded at the idea that racism has to be worded in a way to protect white people's feelings in order for the conversation to be productive. And I argue that in fact it is less productive because it doesn't dig as deep into the subject. It just brushes around obvious racism at the surface.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)Solly Mack
(90,740 posts)Squinch
(50,774 posts)And really, isn't the fact that some say it does need to be worded as they want a prime example of white privilege in action?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)cinnabonbon
(860 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)Whites might initially feel resistant to such a discussion because they don't feel privileged, and they don't understand the concept. Once they understand the concept, they don't feel resistant, in my experience.
Do you have a problem with the concept of white privilege?
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)The subjective perception: "I do not feel very privileged right now as a white person."
The objective reality: "African-Americans and other people of color have considerably lower average levels of income and a small fraction of the average wealth that white Americans have."
This is just one example. The Great Recession increased the racial wealth gap, for the record.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And whites who are having trouble finding a job in this economy should try being black in this economy. Nothing about acknowledging that means you lose any sympathy for whatever boat you find yourself in.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)That pretty much goes without saying. So what is the purpose of thread after thread squawking "white privilege" when this pretty much never leads to any kind of productive discussion?
geardaddy
(24,924 posts)That just shows that you think the argument is nothing but meaningless noise that irritates you. Maybe you should listen to the argument and stop being so sensitive about the term.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I think we all pretty much agree in principle about the existence of conscious and unconscious racial discrimination. I think some people are hoping we can eventually move to the next part of the discussion.
geardaddy
(24,924 posts)What specific policies or practices have you adopted to deal with the problem of institutional racism?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)individuals "adopting specific policies or practices".
geardaddy
(24,924 posts)have you done to make things better. How's that?
Or are you too busy arguing why White Privilege doesn't exist?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)on which the survival of racist institutions hinged.
It's of the "shop for a better world" school of politics.
No accident, that.
geardaddy
(24,924 posts)What do we do? Honestly.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)privilege, the "solution" automatically proceeds from that diagnosis.
which is yes, we basically do nothing, because the disease is presented as an individual problem demanding each individual to change his POV.
Social problems never have individualized solutions. Just as shopping for a better world has turned out to be a massive bust, so 'accepting our white privilege' leads to no better world.
geardaddy
(24,924 posts)"work to end discrimination?" Do we not accept that there is racism and racial discrimination in this country/society?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)who love the white privilege meme seems wrapped up in promoting the meme rather than explicating *how* one is to "work to end discrimination" or developing movements in which others may join to do so.
There is no necessary link between "accepting one's white privilege" and "working to end discrimination". It's diversionary, individualistic and divisive, and that, IMO, is the intent.
It also manages to render invisible the very real power of the ruling class in promoting racial division and maintaining institutional racism.
Most recently, for example, in how blacks were disproportionately targeted for bad mortgages during the property bubble, with results we are still seeing on the ground.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)"white privilege" the discussions, no doubt, would become a lot more productive.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The issue with this framing isn't all about hurt feelings. It's also about So what? What do we do next?
Acknowledging a problem is the starting point, it comes before proposing solutions, and I think some people are getting impatient waiting for that discussion.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Why are you pretending someone is forcing White Privilege down your throat? Almost like you have a persecution complex.
HEY, I know...don't like a thread on DU, don't read it! Amazing concept.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I'd rather accuracy than image and branding. One is predicated on valid and truthful content, the other merely on format-- bows, ribbons and pretty boxes.
No need to bring conversations down to the lowest common denominator, as they are the very one's who will deny and reject regardless of fact and truth. I'll avoid putting pigs on lipstick, and let those who are more accomplished with presentation avoid the difficult truths and reach out to the unreachable.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Some form of corrective action should follow. I think we're all waiting for the words that follow "so" as in "White privilege exists... so we should..."
kwassa
(23,340 posts)and simply be aware of our privilege and how non-whites may be treated differently.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)"recognize it" = lol
"work to eliminate it" = yes, and how?
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Some of them on this very site.
If we can't agree on the basics, then talk about solutions is futile.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)... there's no justification, point, or reason to begin the conversation about the next part; corrective action?
I think reasonable people can disagree about what language should be used to conceptualize personally-mediated, internalized and institutionalized overt, covert, conscious and unconscious, bias, stereotype, and bigotry. I don't think that this semantic nonsense should be used as an excuse to avoid the conversation about what corrective action should be done about it.
Largely, I think that is how these arguments about white privilege are being used. To a) avoid the difficult conversation, b) make it exclusively incumbent upon someone else to solve it or c) to co-opt the issue for ones own grindstone.
The issue is framed the way it is is because it enables feminists to extrapolate the legitimate presence of racial and sexual orientation bigotry into their own +2 shield of victimhood. Thus, it's rarely "white privilege" or "hetero privilege" but almost always "straight white male privilege"... the fact that black men are disproportionately imprisoned mostly because they are men escapes notice.
Count how many times "men" or "male" is used in this thread about white privilege to illustrate my point.
Lost_Count
(555 posts)I suspect they get out of it what they want...
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)"White privilege" was a provocative concept when it first emerged...about half a fucking century ago. Now, it just seems like a hammer for the pedantically self-righteous to hit the rest of us over the head with. As they do in this thread and all the others.
Token Republican
(242 posts)The term white privilege does a poor job at conveying what it means.
The term privilege implies that there is some sort of affirmative pro active actions that whites benefit from. But people don't give stuff to white people, which in turn means that the initial reaction is what privilege are you talking about.
The problem is not that whites are given specific things they don't deserve, but instead that non whites are treated differently. White america should be how every american should be treated.
But by using the term privilege, it conjurers up an image of 18th century aristocrats. They had special rights that needed to be taken away. But that's not the situation today.
Baitball Blogger
(46,576 posts)with every day benefits and treatment that are derived from skin color.
For example, statistics prove that people who are non-white are burdened with more unwanted attention from police, than those who look more Anglo American. That is what we call white privilege. It is a term that means something to those of us who recognize the preferential treatment that white Americans receive. It will obviously not mean anything to you because your personal perspectives will be what you view as "standard ones." But they are not standard to minorities.
So, the term is a reference that has meaning to one side of the Two America syndrome. If you are trying to fit it into your own experiences, you will fail to understand why it has relevance to us.
And I'm just being kind here, because I can go on and talk about the illegal ways that Anglo-Americans have in taking over communities through illicit collusions with city government using insidious private organizations such as the Rotary Club and Master Homeowners' Associations. You live in one of these communities long enough and soon you'll see the pattern. They trash the Fourteenth Amendment in order to protect their access to decisions that will benefit their inside circles. THAT's white privilege. When there is no one challenging them, they start cannibalizing their own communities. And it is impossible to eradicate until you expose the whole network--which usually includes politically connected lawyers who have access to the Governor's office. That's how they shut down investigations from the State Attorney's office and the FDLE--and probably have some clout with the FBI departments that are supposed to ferret government corruption.
On edit: After re-reading my own post it has occurred to me that racial discrimination and white privilege are actually two very different things, but both work against minorities. Racial discrimination is a conscience act, policy or action that treats individuals unfavorably based on skin color; while white privilege shows favorable treatment to a group which is primarily white in skin orientation.
One is racism by definition, the other is racism by proxy.
However, now we come full circle, because once these networks are exposed and it is shown that there is a system that systematically discriminates against minorities, you will begin to understand why programs such as Affirmative Action became necessary in the first place. It was a court remedy for a reason.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)...and not "white privilege."
Check out MLK's "I Have a Dream Speech": No mention of "white privilege"
I read Malcom X's autobiography while in college during the 1970s and don't remember the term "white privilege."
Try searching google using "white privilege," either Malcolm X or Martin Luther King, Jr., and "site:edu" A lot of college-course bibliographies will pop up but references to "white privilege" occur in more recent citations. Perhaps "white privilege" is a relatively new term; probably the result of contemporary academic research.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Just like people are saying that talking about white privilege is going about it the wrong way now.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)I read "Black Like Me" during this time and it struck me as a study in racial discrimination. Not "white privilege."
kwassa
(23,340 posts)The understanding of privilege is more recent. Why don't you do a Google search on white privilege, alone?
KansDem
(28,498 posts)I'm certain there are numerous websites discussing "white privilege."
I was looking at "white privilege" in a historical context.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)It is a more sophisticated understanding of the workings of discrimination.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)How so?
Perhaps I'm naive but when I see photos like these (warning: graphic), I think "murder based on racial discrimination" not "Look at all the guys standing around enjoying 'white privilege.'"
But then I was raised to believe we all had rights guaranteed by the Constitution and any deviation from these rights was a perversion.
Still do...
kwassa
(23,340 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)Or can't you do it?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)a context of class power -- in the sixties.
His conceptualization of "white privilege" is the privilege of a trustee prisoner in a prison. His analysis shows that white people's privilege is no real privilege at all, and thus that white people have a definite self-interest in changing things -- whereas the modern appropriation implies that whites really are privileged, but should work for change despite their logical self-interest in maintaining privilege.
His work also describes white privilege as a tool of ruling class hegemony, wielded differently depending on the situation:
The key to understanding racial oppression, Allen argues, is in the formation of the intermediate social control buffer stratum, which serves the interests of the ruling class. In the case of racial oppression in Virginia, any persons of discernible non-European ancestry after Bacon's Rebellion were denied a role in the social control buffer group, the bulk of which was made up of laboring-class "whites."
In the Anglo-Caribbean, by contrast, under a similar Anglo- ruling elite, "mulattos" were included in the social control stratum and were promoted into middle-class status.
For Allen, this was the key to understanding the difference between Virginias ruling-class policy of fixing a perpetual brand on African-Americans, and the policy of the West Indian planters of formally recognizing the middle-class status colored descendant and other Afro-Caribbeans who earned special merit by their service to the regime.
This difference, between racial oppression and national oppression, was rooted in a number of social control-related factors, one of the most important of which was that in the West Indies there were too few poor and laboring-class Europeans to embody an adequate petit bourgeoisie, while in the continental colonies there were 'too many' to be accommodated in the ranks of that class.
Those who appropriated the term evacuated all the class analysis and thus when asked "what is to be done" all they can say is "Just recognize your privilege" & "Do your part to change things".
It's become a completely empty and useless meme, IMO, and I suspect that's intentional.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)There is nothing Marxist in your quote.
You might link and title the articles your quote comes from; what is it, anyways?
The modern popular understanding of the concept of white privilege comes from Peggy McIntosh "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" from 1987.
Your judgment of it being an empty and useless meme is your own, of course. I and many others feel otherwise.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)That a discussion of social class doesn't have to be Marxist doesn't mean that Allen's work was not Marxist.
That you've never heard of Theodore Allen, despite your claim to know all about the history of the term "white privilege," shows me how effectively Marxist theory has been appropriated and rendered nameless and harmless in academia.
Here's that quote again, with the link:
Allens position, however, is quite different from this. Allen argues that racial oppression is not inevitable under capitalism and he describes how racial oppression begins, how it is maintained, and how it can be transformed.
Allen also consistently challenges the white assumption and describes how the white race was invented as a ruling class social control formation in response to labor solidarity.
Finally, and very importantly, Allen emphasizes that European-American workers do not benefit from white skin privileges, that these white skin privileges are a poison bait, a baited hook, and they are not in the interest of working class people.
These points are made clearly in The Invention of the White Race where Allen develops his major thesis that the white race was invented as a ruling class social control formation in response to labor solidarity as manifested in the later, civil war stages of Bacon's Rebellion (1676-77). To this he adds two important corollaries: 1) the ruling elite, in its own class interest, deliberately instituted a system of racial privileges to define and maintain the white race and establish a system of racial oppression; 2) the consequences were not only ruinous to the interests of African-Americans, they were also disastrous for European-American workers, whose class interests differed fundamentally from those of the ruling elite.
In developing these theses Allen challenges two main arguments that undermine and disarm the struggle against white supremacy in the working class: (1) the argument that white supremacism is innate, and (2) the argument that European-American workers benefit from white race privileges and that it is in their interest not to oppose them and not to oppose white supremacy.
http://www.jeffreybperry.net/blog.htm?post=935421
Here's a bio of Ted Allen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_W._Allen
Here's a bibliography:
http://www.jeffreybperry.net/_center__font_size__3__font_color__sepia___b_4__theodore_w__allen_br___font_size_86151.htm
And a link to his seminal "White Blindspot/Can white radicals be radicalized" (1965):
White Blindspot
The Original Essays on Combating
White Supremacy and White-Skin Privilege
http://www.sds-1960s.org/WhiteBlindspot.pdf
kwassa
(23,340 posts)I can't say that I agree even slightly with Allen's thesis that white skin privilege is an invention of ruling elites; of course, I agree with little Marxian analysis.
and despite what you think of Peggy McIntosh, she is the one who popularized the concept in the past 25 years ago. Her work was extremely influential in the thinking of many people.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)There's a reason Allen is mostly forgotten while popularizers like McIntosh are celebrated as paragons.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)And because his analysis was class-based.
Such approaches & works are rarely promoted in the media, in the Democratic party, in academia, in fashionable circles -- at least not since the 70s. In fact, there has been a concerted effort to disappear them.
The rule of thumb is that if you identify and challenge real power, there are consequences.
If you mislocate where the actual power lies, you will be celebrated.
I have a question for you: even during the slave era, there was significant international capital acting in the world. For example, American capital had investments in both the US and the Caribbean.
Can your "white privilege" analysis explain why in the Caribbean (some) blacks were part of the governing class and the middle class, while in the US they were (mostly) totally excluded, by law or custom? And this at the same time, which some of the same (powerful, rich, white) people were invested in?
I.e. can your analysis explain facts in the actually existing world?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)The history of the black diaspora is different in every country that it landed in. All of it derived from black slavery, with the sugar plantations in the Caribbean being the first great demand for slaves that fueled the early trade. The only place where blacks ran things was in Haiti after the revolution that threw out the French.
I don't know where in the Caribbean you think that blacks were part of any power structure until recent history. Care to share some examples? As most of these places were European colonies until recent times, the European countries ran things.
In some of those colonies, particularly English ones, other colonial subjects of Indian ancestry were brought into run things. Middle Easterners became merchants there, as well as Chinese, depending on where it was. Blacks were slaves, then free individuals at the bottom of the economic ladder.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Which is one reason I think it's a shame a lot of white people get so defensive RE: discussions of racism. The more fairly people of all races are treated, the more peaceful and harmonious our world will be.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)(and salary) by publishing papers, usually by referencing other papers.
As Chomsky rightly pointed out, this so-called scholarship is really just glorified clerical work. A word like "white privilege" strikes me as the type of term that thrives in such an environment.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)In a previous life I worked as an adjunct instructor for a few years. One thing I learned during that time was if one wanted to succeed in academia, one needed to present and publish new knowledge.
I witnessed the rise of new knowledge within my discipline and how such research resulted in articles in professional journals and lectures at professional conferences.
At such conferences, I saw how cliques formed, usually around a central scholar who managed to draw a circle of colleagues and graduate students with his or her work in creating new knowledge. The celebrity scholar was the mentor to the students and I saw how such students found their way following graduation into teaching positions at colleges and universities. Such is the nature of academic cliques, but the underlying premise to such success is to publish--and publish something "new and exciting." Some of these students-turned-professors delved into and advanced the very research of their mentors.
I suspect the same with white privilege as an academic term. Who wants to publish another boring academic paper on the civil rights struggle when one could delve into newer white privilege" research? Besides, one imagines with so many more people of color and women on university faculties, the concept of white privilege takes on a vibrancy that would have been lost in a previous era.
One DUer on this thread acknowledges the concept of white privilege to have begun in the last 20 years or so. The civil-rights struggle has been in full-force for over 50 years now. I doubt if MLK or MX would have gotten very far in their civil-rights struggle if they peppered their speeches and writings with accusations of white privilege.
liberalmuse
(18,670 posts)To discount this fact is to deny most of the racism that has existed for centuries.
Solly Mack
(90,740 posts)Because of racism and racist thinking, white skin does indeed confer an advantage in America.
Being poor and white doesn't absolve anyone from the realities of racism. Having a hard time financially doesn't mean you get to close your mind to the discrimination and injustices faced by your fellow citizens.
Just because your bank account is in the red and you're feeling anything but special doesn't stop your white skin from being an advantage in a country where people brought over in chains are still being stigmatized and discriminated against solely because of the hue of their skin.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)No one implies that a white teenager deserves to be harassed, or even shot, for being in the "wrong" neighborhood (even if his father and stepmother happen to live there).
No one routinely characterizes white people as less than human, as beasts, savages.
And yet, in the face of all this horrific racism, all anyone can do is whine about the use of the phrase "white privilege"??? Go fuck yourselves!
Solly Mack
(90,740 posts)YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)nt
steve2470
(37,457 posts)As long as everyone is willing to acknowledge racial discrimination against black people, I'm good. If you don't like the phrase, fine, but at least acknowledge upfront that there is discrimination.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)the laser focus on white privilege. Focusing on just white privilege betrays a certain provincialism and helps cover the cause of what maintains privilege of all types.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Racism is a harmful wrong done to certain ethnic groups, right? Whether it's conscious or not, intended or not, that group is wronged by racism. Constantly, because racism is both an active form of bigotry and it's also institutionalized. When you try to recharacterize a "harm to x group" into "privilege for non-x group", then every group is by definition privileged.
Victims of sexual abuse are harmed, but suddenly everyone who hasn't experienced sexual abuse is privileged to have avoided that tremendous harm. They are privileged to have intimate relationships with others without the psychological impact of sexual abuse. Is that a privilege? If you accept the term "white privilege" then you must also accept this form of privilege.
The same is true for any group who have been unlucky, wronged or suffer from an injury that has a long-term impact. People who don't suffer from mental illness are privileged not to have such a burden (and let's face it, an unfair stigma). People who weren't abused as children are privileged. People who aren't disabled are privileged. Unless you've suffered every possible misfortune and malady of life, then you're privileged. What use then is the word "privileged"? It's really not. It loses all meaning at that point. To call a white disabled person who is confined to a wheelchair "privileged" is ludicrous.
That is the logical downfall of the term "white privilege". The problem really isn't about anyone's privilege, it's that another group is wronged by bigotry. Our struggle is not about taking away privileges, it's really about extending equal treatment to everyone. Those who have had very bad luck in life will naturally be offended by the idea that even though they are in a wheel chair, or homeless, that they are somehow privileged.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)institutionalized racism as a tool of power, and massively benefited from it -- benefits that have endured through centuries.
According to the meme, George Bush (whose family's power derived partly from the slave trade (several ancestors) & partly from Brown Brothers Harriman, slave-grown cotton as the basis of its capital) --
George Bush & a white tenant farmer are equal in their "white privilege".
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)when they think of privilege. Money is god in this world, =no matter what color you are.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)than a white man of equivalent social class. So no, "money" is not the only factor, though it certainly is a very important one.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)What's with the strawmen in these discussions?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)privilege".
There is no strawman there.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)GWB and the white tenant farmer.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)You just don't see it.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)The constant level of suspicion against you in various public arenas, that you will never get.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Compare it with the memes of "disadvantage" and "prejudice" in the Civil Rights movement or the meme of "Black Power" in the movement of the same name.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Race is only one marker of relative privilege. So a poor white man and a rich white man may be equally privileged as white people, but the rich man obviously has greater class privilege. Doesn't mean race privilege doesn't exist, simply that class privilege is just as significant.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)relative privilege a/o lack of privilege to get their score.
The main reason there's a large difference in social class between me & Bush is that the Bush family historically profited from the slave trade directly and indirectly and that benefit took the form of hard capital, over multiple generations, washed clean by time.
Not only that; they continue to hold power is their willingness to continue the same sorts of practices; for example, the conquest and murder of Iraqis.
My role in the maintenance of white power structures is an infinitesimal speck in the eye of God in comparison and consists primarily of existing.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)sincere and well-intentioned think of it that way.
No one is asking you or me to be ashamed of our whiteness. But the first step to fixing things is admitting there's a problem. And how do we get beyond the first step when so many (not necessarily you) deny the problem even exists?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)discussions that make comments like:
"Well, let's see -- I'm gay, but I'm white, but I'm female, but I'm upper-middle class" as though there were a score to be derived from the sum of their privilege and disprivilege.
I think they are perfectly sincere, and it's a consequence of the frame created by the meme.
I don't deny racism is a problem; I deny that leading with "white privilege" is a solution.
You said white people are the problem. If white people are the problem, what's the solution?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Then only white people can solve the problem.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We can help, but only if our opinions are listened to and valued.
I have a great idea. What if white people just stopped being racist without black people putting in any work? Maybe they start acknowledging white privilege and fight amongst themselves about how to end the racial profiling of our black citizens. Stop crying reverse racism constantly. Ask our opinions and not fight with us about semantics all the time. Validate our struggles. That might be a start.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)are being racist, why would that/they stop being so? Why would they listen to black people's opinions, or anything else you've mentioned?
I just don't see what motivates any movement in this picture.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The ones who are?
They have no reason stop, that's why it hasn't happened yet. They may need to be embarrassed into changing their ways by experiencing the shunning they would like to inflict on others. I feel the same way about homophobes. If you don't want gay people around you, I don't want you around me.
It's ignorant and shameful to be a bigot. That would be motivation enough for me, but I don't have that problem.
Maybe we should tell our bigots that until they come to a realization that the color of their skin doesn't make them better than someone of another color, and that we don't want them near us or our children spreading hate, they'll get lonely.
If all white people tell their bigot friends, if they have any, I can't be your friend as long as you're a racist, it might make a dent in the number of bigots in this country.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)phrasing.
So now we have whites with none or varying degrees of racist behaviors and the whites on one end should shun those on the other end. OK, I think this already happens to a great degree in the realm of personal associations; less so in relationships such as family or work associates.
But is racism just a matter of bigoted individuals?
You mentioned profiling. Profiling is a policy that's handed down to the rank & file cop to enact in practice, and some of them are black, profiling other blacks, in the same way that black cops as well as white cops in NYC have to enact stop & frisk -- because it's policy and if they challenge it, they probably lose their jobs.
Who formulates & dictates such policies, and why? I really don't know. Do blacks and whites that carry out the policies do it differently? I don't know that either.
But the reason I bring it up is; in my work life I've had to carry out or represent policies and ideas I found somewhat heinous, and in some cases I've quit over it. That is easier for me than many, because I don't have children. I quit what was a well-paying (and incidentally non-demanding) job because the main business of the company was a military contractor, for example. And of course the military is used all over the world to enforce racist structures of dominance. If everyone quit, that couldn't go on -- but they never have and never will that I can see. So my quitting was really a fart in the wind, and I was the only person harmed by it, because it's taken as an isolated individual. What was the point? I should have gone for the money.
This dimension of enforcing the structure of racism seems to me not to be addressed via the "white privilege" meme, yet it seems a very important one. Even when people are not particularly bigoted, they support and perpetuate the architecture of racism and power simply by trying to make a living and live a life. The "good german" if you will.
It's past my bedtime so I'm going to have to leave this now but I'll look forward to your reply.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Say it isn't so!!! Nooooo!! Why!!!
I shall now fall into an irreversible decline....
Tell the children, I loved them so...
Just playing. I'm not dying.
I just wonder if it was something I said that made you go. We were finally talking.
Fare thee well, good sir!! Good day!
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)tremendous harm." Actually they are "privileged" in a sense, whether you want to use that term or not. That's what privilege really consists of, when you get down to it - the avoidance of bad things that happen to other people and not you.
"To call a white disabled person who is confined to a wheelchair 'privileged' is ludicrous." It's not ludicrous, because comparatively they are more privileged than a black person in a wheelchair. Likewise, a homeless white person is comparatively more privileged than a black homeless person. We have to be careful not to think about this too simplistically.
Hell, in a world so filled with suffering, I'd say anyone who's managed to live a halfway decent life is privileged, relatively speaking.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)"White privilege! You're white! You're privileged! Acknowledge it! I SAID ACKNOWLEDGE IT!"
How is this not a condescending strawmanish perversion of the actual argument? What is the significance of all caps in this quote? Productive discussion my ass.
idendoit
(505 posts)Or even how they think.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)particularly the Tumblr types, for some time now. (And tragically, as much as I hate to say this, it does appear, sadly, that some of the worst individual offenders happen to be People of Color. Cases in point? Gradient Lair and Flavia Dzodan, for one.
(With that said, though, I'd like to stress, strongly emphasize in fact, that there are still many other individuals, not just those who happen to be PoC but even who happen to be "white" as well, who are able to discuss their views and opinions without coming across as totally pushy, or jerks, etc. It's just that not enough people are pushing back against the tiny segment of malcontents yet; and those of us who are sensible people, from all walks of life, regardless of background, etc., should try to correct the record, even if we may individually disagree amongst ourselves sometimes.)
idendoit
(505 posts)The issue I had with the OP was arguing equivalencies using absolutes. I agree with your assertion that racism must not be allowed to stand unanswered. Unfortunately, I don't think merely labeling someone without context changes the way they think about others. I'll admit some of my posts make me seem like a jerk. At times I feel the need to reply and am at a loss how to do so without scolding or lecturing. But, yes more of us need to push back against an angry tide of racism. Happy Troll Hunting!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Also, it's okay to admit you're not perfect. I'm not either, TBH. But we can always try to better ourselves, can't we?
Happy trails!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'm not sure what else I can say. This is a point that I and others have been trying to make over and over again; you are not alone! There *are* people who can state viewpoints without instigating pissing contests over who has the least "privilege". There *are* people who can discuss these issues in a honest, yet logical and sensible manner.
It just seems that not enough of us are making themselves known, that's all.
My hat is graciously tipped to you, good sir.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)even understand the concept. Sorry- it is a very fitting word for for what it is.
And your comfort with it is not priority one. That you think it should be priority one, is kind of the point here.
TheKentuckian
(24,949 posts)then you're left pissing into the wind while slapping yourself on the back.
Isn't the point to educate white folks? Same with males or any other privileged set. The rest of us are subjected so the impact in minority communities is preaching to the choir no matter how dead on accurate.
I don't understand the endgame here. How is the ball advanced if you don't care if the folks who benefit don't get the message? I also wonder who's term this is and why the investment is there in willfully being inaccessible.
If you can't wrap your head around someone who feels they are getting the shit end of the stick, quite plausibly legitimately is going to rankle at being called privileged then I tend to have to think you might not have made the most basic consideration.
I even have to consider the possibility that the entire aim is just to make somebody squirm or something with no actual expectations of changing the paradigm even in an evolutionary pace.
Is this going to keep me from being fucked with or at least out of handcuffs while I get "checked out" by the police or make me stop feeling like I have to be better than amazing to tread water and incredible to get ahead or make that waitress not assume I'm going to stiff her on the tip or in any way meaningfully address the real life bullshit or is this a cudgel working as a part time badge of honor for a few folks that think they really "get it", mostly comfortable to upper class and seemingly mostly white folks that won't improve life for anyone?
Is this all really just the Turd Way acceptable substitute for and distraction from a dialog about class?
It almost seems the privilege push is a response.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and not leaving out things because they make some other people uncomfortable. The truth is uncomfortable sometimes, and nothing evolves when you ignore it.
I won't address you getting fucked with personally, sorry. I am already multitasking dealing with both class and race issues. And others. There is room in my head, and life, for all of that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You must be glad that you have the privilege of telling us how we may discuss the issue so as to not bother you. Nobody cares how we want to discuss it, but that's not important, since we are just the victims of hundreds of years of American racism. I mean, what the hell could we possibly know about it, that you don't?
We are used to being told to shut up, sit down, and not get too uppity. That's basically what you are doing except this uppity part, I think.
When people stop using race as a cudgel to beat down the black population in this country, white privilege may just disappear, but as long as I can get pulled over for an intermittent turn signal by three cop cars and a K-9 unit with guns drawn, just because of my color, Ill use the term whenever I please. If if bothers you, so what? It bothers me that I can't walk around nordstroms without 20 different people, in sucession, asking me if they can help me. Every 30 seconds. One after another. Until I just leave.
I think you'll survive hearing/reading the term white privilege much better than I actually survive living in a white bred world and navigating through all the racism.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I'm merely observing that throwing around the term here on DU tends not to result in useful or productive discussions.
JustAnotherGen
(31,688 posts)So can we no longer have discussions about race as it relates to black Americans and the black American experience at DU?
Put yourselves in the shoes of black DUers - myself included.
All you folks are accomplishing is alienating us. Now that's the truth. You don't have to like it - but you have to accept it.
At the end of the day since nothing is accomplished - no more discussions. Focus on Snowden because that's all DU can handle.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)The goal is to discuss racial issues in a non-contentious, productive manner. And engaging in one-upmanship bickering about "privilege" tends not to be helpful in this regard.
JustAnotherGen
(31,688 posts)I'm on my own side.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Or else.
Number23
(24,544 posts)But oh, no at the same time. As smart as you are, you know who's on your side and who has your back.
And you also know who doesn't.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)Let the people who are experiencing the discrimination refer to it the way they want to. Especially when the term is accurate.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Why? Just because some white man says so?
Number23
(24,544 posts)That and screaming "authoritarian" at every one while braying about how much of a sellout Obama is and how the Third, I'm sorry, the TURD Way ( ) are killing America.
And these folks wonder why so many people of color have long since checked out never to return.
JustAnotherGen
(31,688 posts)The Third Way website sometime! It's not really uh - reflective of us at all. Which is why it cracks me up when that gets thrown at black members. The last time I checked out the About Us section there was one black woman in an Administrative role.
I'm sorry but my 17 and 20 year old nephews have to have an "Authoritarian" mentality because they may have to survive being pulled over for a DWB.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Don't believe you.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)such as "white privilege".
And I am not at all offended that you choose to disbelieve me when I say I am not offended.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)more comfortable.
That attitude personifies white privilege.
I'm mad that at your age you don't get it yet.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)equates to "telling black people which terms they should use".
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Instead of asking us which terms we prefer.
It's not about you and your feelings, it's about us and the crap we deal with on a day to day basis. How can we teach you anything if you are just caught up in arguing semantics with us??
We can't. You obviously know more than we do about racism, and to prove it, you tell us which words we should use to be more effective. We've been on this ride for 400 years, we've said it in twenty million different ways, instead of solving the actual problem, you want to argue semantics.
Basically you are telling us that if we would just be more polite, and not use words that offend white people when discussing racism, then we could finally find a solution. You want it sugar coated for you. But nobody bothers to sugar coat their racism for us. They give it to us raw.
I think that if people want to give out doses of dirty racism that we should get down in the dirt when discussing it. If it offends more people, more often, maybe they'll get disgusted enough as white people to work together to fix the problems caused by white supremacy in this society.
We should use the most horrible words we can when discussing this horrible system of racial privilege.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)It's more of an observation as to which terms tend not to result in productive discourse. And while I realize that your approach is to "get down in the dirt", to "offend more people, more often", to make people "disgusted", and to "use the most horrible words we can", I have to respectfully say that I do not subscribe to these techniques.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)In 400 years it hasn't worked yet.
Asking for freedom did not makes us free. It took a bloody war.
I'm using words. It will work in my lifetime, cause I ain't sugar coating a damn thing for America.
I wiil be heard, and I'll probably be here longer than you to see the results. I refuse to let my children grow up in a country where they are criminalized just because of the color of their skin. It isnt right and it makes me furious.
We may have to embarrass America into changing her ways. We had to do it before, and we'll keep doing it until it stops. And we should use whatever terms we want to, in order to help us explain the problem.
I would never tell a gay person which words they should use to describe the bigotry they face.
Would you?
Would you tell a woman which words she should use when describing sexism?
Ever tell a rape victim which words to use to describe the assault?
If you would not, then you should give black people the same respect you would give any other group when describing the pain they go through. If you can't do that, I'm sorry for YOU.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)his approach was not exactly to "offend more people, more often", to make people "disgusted", and to "use the most horrible words we can". But you do seem to be wedded to your approach, and while I am not convinced that it is the best one I do wish you luck with it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm not.
Racism itself is a hundred times more disgusting than anything I could ever say about it.
It's the real problem, not how I choose to describe it.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I just state what's plain as day and don't sugar coat it using mealy mouth wording.
Racism shouldn't exist period. Me referring to the status quo as what it is, doesn't change that fact. It not up to me to provide the cure, or to say it in a way that make people comfortable. I live in a country where I feel uncomfortable in my skin just for being me sometimes, so I don't feel bad if the words white privilege makes the beneficiaries of white privilege uncomfortable. It may actually help the discussion if everybody gets uncomfortable with the status quo.
Sugar coating reality does not help further my views, regardless.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)me uncomfortable at all.
I simply think it receives so much attention because it takes the focus off the real causes of racism and the real beneficiaries.
Maybe that makes people uncomfortable too, I don't know, I just call em as I see em.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Tell me what the 'real' causes of racism are, and who the 'real' beneficiaries are.
I'm dying to know.
I hope this isn't another fix the economic issues first then let's work on the racism discussion, because we have fallen for that kinda trick too many times. We never fully benefit from that sort of thing because of the institutional racism. So, please, not that.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)any program of action put forth by the "white privilege" posters here at all. Whenever I ask what I'm supposed to do other than accepting this formulation, I typically get something like "Be more aware of how others without your privilege exist" and "work for change". Which to my way of thinking is empty nothing.
Can you describe some instance where black people fell for some plan to fix economic issues first so I know what you're talking about?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Economy rebounded, lynchings continued. He refused to do anything about it because he was afraid he would lose the south and further elections.
http://www.naacp.org/pages/naacp-history-costigan-wagner-act
We were limited in recieving the full benefits from the new deal because of racism and intimidation.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)They recruit everyone's support and always fail to deliver in full -- except to their funders.
FDR's mission was to save the capitalist order; he succeeded admirably.
But I don't see this as an example of someone saying "Let me fix the economy first and then I'll address lynching". As I understand it, the anti-lynching campaigners rounded up black support for FDR in the hope (or maybe with the implied promise) he'd address lynching, not because they expected him to fix the economy first, then address lynching.
Blacks got less of the benefit of the New Deal than others; on this we can agree.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They always get more of the benefit than others. That's why we call it white privilege. Ta da!
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I only care about accuracy in explaining racism. Not about sugar coating things to make them sound more useful to you. It's not about you.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Are you just trying to have the last word? My bad.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)the interest of furthering communication and discussion.
If communication and discussion is my interest, what's the point in taking anything personally?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm ready to discuss it with you when you are ready.
My comments aren't intended to be taken personally, unless they are.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Sorry for yelling, but sometimes it's necessary to get a point across.
And no, you don't get a cookie (or a Get Out of Jail Free card) just for being from a "working-class" background. You still benefit from racism, at the expense of POC of similar social class.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)across any better.
Take away white people and there will still be racism or its equivalent.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I'm talking about the actual world in which they've enjoyed unfair advantages for centuries.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)I'm not talking about a hypothetical world either.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Remove the word "unfair" from my post and it wouldn't substantially change the meaning.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)think that for some posters, a racially representative class system is the ideal.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Me, I tend to feel that being more aware of inequality - all forms of inequality - ultimately liberates us all, because a more just and equal society, in the long run at least, is a more peaceful.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,688 posts)And you notice how we have to work together was part of the premise - but no ideas were given?
You created a monster Bravenak - because you brought up a good point a few weeks ago -
Why do we have to do all the work? We can't change from within. It's external. So nope - gonna focus on my TPS reports instead.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That says it all.
JustAnotherGen
(31,688 posts)And felt like I was in Office Space handing the cake off to the person behind me after half assed happy birthday to the boss.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I guess I better get back to practicing how not to upset those with the privilege to decide what words I may say.
I find it funny that racism isn't the real problem, it's how black people discuss racism, that's the real problem.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)I love all your posts.
JustAnotherGen
(31,688 posts)Brilliant brilliant woman.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I've been reading your posts btw, and thank you for what you do.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)I think you'll survive hearing/reading the term white privilege much better than I actually survive living in a white bred world and navigating through all the racism.
You are the freaking woman. Seriously.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But they are on a roll!!
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)that would be great.
Working to end it starts with acknowledging your and every other white person's privilege and innate biases - and then trading in the tin ear to recognize dog whistles once you get to that point.
Then you can hopefully teach your friends and family to do the same.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,688 posts)No - I don't think I'm going to do that today. Naaaaah - I'm actually going to get my TPS reports done on time instead.
fishwax
(29,146 posts)about the term white privilege.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the existence of white privilege is to derail the conversation before it has even begun. how silly is that? how can you say not talking about white privilege while talking discrimination? it is part of the friggin discrimination, itself.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Indeed, all of us at DU acknowledge that racial discrimination exists and should be stopped. I am simply questioning whether constantly hectoring people about their "privilege" enhances discussions of this issue.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)discrimination. one that takes it much deeper than the overt racist that is clear to all of us. you want to address the very problem in the u.s. with our racism, we have to recognize the more silent forms of discrimination. it makes NO sense to address discrimination, while we are demanding we ignore it also.
that is exactly what the white privilege is. a discrimination. just not visible to too many whites.
hence the education.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Don't like it, tough shit!
JustAnotherGen
(31,688 posts)And between you and me - you said it "well".
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)simple, clear, obvious, in all of our faces. same with male privilege. i do not get the denier
1awake
(1,494 posts)Unless you mean those who say White privilege doesn't cover every white person in every corner of every part of society.
And on a side note, it is not clear, or obvious, or in everyone's faces depending on where and how they grew up. They would be wrong (on this last part) because it does exist but still... not so obvious to all depending on many factors.
westerebus
(2,976 posts)I don't know why I hadn't considered this earlier other than my white privilege.
The people have spoken, give them what they want.
From now on, if I were to reply to a post, I'd say:
How did my white privilege increase the stock market today?
Or: On behalf of my white privilege defense cuts sound like a good idea.
Maybe: Hillary 2016. My White privilege says it's a just what the nation needs.
Yes, that may be the solution.
Keeping the white privilege in the forefront of each and every discussion.
People are demanding it be acknowledged.
I think everybody can get on board with that.
What do you think?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And you know it.
westerebus
(2,976 posts)Are you objecting to me acknowledging my white privilege?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's like you want to make fun of us for some reason and I'm disappointed.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I think the problem is too much hyperbole all around.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's accurate. That's the problem we have. It's accurate but you don't like the term.
westerebus
(2,976 posts)This morning when I fed the stray cats on the front porch, I looked down the street at the children and their parents waiting in the cold for the school bus.
Black, brown, yellow and white. They are my neighbors, some friends.
I have the keys to some of their houses and they to mine.
We are fortunate to live in this middle class suburb.
Not everyone here had it easy coming up.
Two homes went into foreclosure a few years back.
There are four who have changed jobs from being downsized.
There are a few PhD's in the neighborhood.
We talk about the economy.
The recent marriage of the kid who used to cut my grass. Twenty years ago.
We talk about the tax increase coming for the schools.
How many vice principals is too many?
We talk about what college their kids might go to.
Or how many boxes of Girl Scout cookies we have to buy.
We are just people.
When we see each other grocery shopping, we stop. How's your mom doing?
A text on the phone. Need lift in am car inspection 8 good?
More than half go to church on Sunday.
Thought not the same church.
No one puts a political sign on their lawn.
I think every adult votes, but not for the same side.
These are my neighbors.
This is what I see when I look out my front door.
It's a pretty niece view.
Does it mean racism is gone?
No.
Will these kids experience racism, sexism, homophobia and violence in their lives?
Probably.
Is it changing for the better?
My experience says it is.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Enjoy.
I usually get disappointed when I'm being serious and people start cracking jokes or being hyperbolic.
westerebus
(2,976 posts)It remains to be seen if this rhetorical squabble can't be used for something positive.
Let's hope it will.
And I never ever ever ever never use hyperbole.
Ever.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I must have read too much into your statement and let my feeling about other posts bleed through.
I will try not to do so in the future.
westerebus
(2,976 posts)It isn't intended to cause you distress.
I apologize.
My white privilege as a rhetorical device can be used as I see fit.
There is a difference.
Even within the framework I might choose, it can be open to possibilities unintended.
Your initial reaction wasn't correct.
I have brought you into investing in this conversation by using it for the purpose of engaging you in conversation.
We are speaking to each other, not at each other.
You have no reason to be sorry.
We are better off discussing things with each other than we would fighting each other.
At least I think we will.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And I'm sorry I didn't get the joke, I usually do. I bet if I had heard it out loud I would get it.
I hope we're cool.
westerebus
(2,976 posts)see you around...
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Same white guy who works so very hard to belittle the murder of black children and society's tolerance thereof.
How curious.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)that should have resulted in a few hidden posts, no? But I have very rarely had a post hidden and I am sure I would remember this happening for something like this. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)You are good at what you do, I'll give you that. But, you aren't fooling anyone.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)How about the 14 DUers who recommended this thread?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)But of course, the people who let them get away with the line-toeing are part of the problem too...
morningfog
(18,115 posts)It still needs to be discussed. It shouldn't make you so uncomfortable. But, only when you are comfortable and confident enough to acknowledge it can you be taken seriously when you say you want to end racial discrimination.
Worse than denying the fact of white privilege is fighting against even discussing it.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)All of us should be made uncomfortable by the existence of racism. It's more of an observation as to which terms tend not to result in productive discourse.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)in the past, when real change occurred?
I'm going to make a prediction. The world as a whole & the US as a consequence, is going to get a whole lot more "multiracial, multiethnic, multigendered". We'll see more and more former "minorities" in positions of power, locally and internationally.
And white people/white men as a "group" are going to be disempowered, in terms of income, income opportunities, standard of living, and access to power. Lose their 'privilege' if you like, regardless of whether they admit the existence of it. It will happen, and it will happen because the actually privileged are creating that new reality by using their power and capital to reshape the world.
The reason is that capital can't rule a multicultural world without a multicultural face, and the face of "white privilege" is only one of the faces available, a historical epiphenomenon.
But things for the majority of people will not get any better as a consequence. Many black Americans, as now, will continue to be poor, oppressed, jailed -- they'll just be joined by more white people. And race will be as divisive a topic as ever, and as much of a problem, just with other labels and other slants.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)Yeh, I remember.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Firstly, it turns active discrimination which can be identified and fought, into the flip slide of itself, passive privilege, a vague all-encompassing blame game which changes nothing. In doing so, the issue becomes less clear, and people who have nothing to do with perpetrating it get blamed for it. So substituting that term creates more confusion, and results in more injustice. When seeking justice results in more injustice -- that isn't very credible.
Secondly, it's inaccurate. Privilege denotes benefits in EXCESS of what is the NORM. Treatment of whites should be considered the norm, and treatment of people of color should be improved to meet that standard. Use of the word "privilege" means that abusive, unacceptable treatment of people of color becomes our standard or norm. Is that what we're trying to say? So is the word useful, or not? Is it appropriate, or not?
I say it's a bullshit term, just another attempted corruption of language by fad fuzzy thinkers of the moment.
In fact, it reminds me of something that might've been thought up by someone who was intentionally trying to render the rights movement ineffective (Karl Rove would be proud of whoever it was). Look at this thread, or others, and the dissension it causes is easy to see.
(And that goes for using it about males as well.)
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Really. Some of these folks have been going at it all freaking day.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)We'll make progress when we stop centering discussion around the oh-so-fragile feelings of the privileged. The reason the term "white privilege" so often derails discussion is that many of us who enjoy the advantages of white privilege just double down and refuse to discuss it rationally. Some of us continue to make the discussion about our feelings and experiences rather than the experiences of those who continue to be slighted because of their race. It seems to me that some of us who benefit from white privilege--whether we acknowledge our privilege or not--have a keen interest in controlling the narrative. It's almost like we're afraid to listen to the experiences of those who don't have the benefit of white privilege.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Kinda out of the loop, huh?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)How are blacks better off for it 20 years on?
Where is the equivalent of the march on Washington and the civil rights act? Where is the new wealth of black americans, the improved health and mortality stats, where is the new ease of racial relations in the US?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It is none of those things- but it's a term used widely by people who work in anti racism and sexism campaigns all the time. So THEY more clearly communicate. Because that's a good thing.
It is just a term. It won't bite you, I swear. Chill out. Leave the conversation if it's too much for you.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)educational efforts.
Academics use lots of obscure terms when they talk amongst themselves. Addressing the general public in the same way does not educate.
There were real gains made during the period 1950-1970. When the term "white privilege" was not current. You can't point to anything similar for the period 1987-2007.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)And I don't believe you give two shits about "working to end racial discrimination" - all you care about is being comforted and flattered, which for white people is largely the antithesis of actually doing something to fix the problem!
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)or haven't done in 60 years.
If comfort and flattery is my goal, I'd have better luck here taking a different line.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It seems to have been addressed to Nye Bevan. You should not take it personally.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)as it was a clear personal insult.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)by which all other manifestations of culture stand in stark relief. In the USA, it exists in the way that air and water are present and are not noted until absent from the environment or overly present as in a deluge or storm. White culture assumes privilege and the desire to subsume all others to its rules and demands. Working to end discrimination does require an ownership of white culture and the privilege it reflects. It is more than an artifact of colonialism.
boston bean
(36,186 posts)No thank you!
WTF?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)The day I start getting stopped by the police simply because of the color of my skin, I'll agree.
The day I have to begin worrying about my son's safety when he goes strolling off down the street, I'll agree...
It would do you well to acknowledge it. Yes indeed. It would.
Baitball Blogger
(46,576 posts)Racial discrimination and white privilege are actually two very different things, but both work against minorities. Racial discrimination is a conscience act, policy or action that treats individuals unfavorably based on skin color; while white privilege shows favorable treatment to a group which is primarily white in skin orientation.
One is racism by definition, the other is racism by proxy.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)is the same thing as "unfavorable treatment to those who are non-white". Racial discrimination, in other words.
Baitball Blogger
(46,576 posts)I live in a community that is steep in white privilege and rarely do I hear the kind of words that send up red flags of racism. Yet, everything about the way this place operates is stacked to improve the quality of life and protect the power structure for Anglo-Americans. All this will weigh unfavorably on minorities, but you would be hard pressed to see signs of overt racism.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I have the feeling that some willfully won't understand your post, which is sad...
Baitball Blogger
(46,576 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)White people should never be made to feel uncomfortable, or to acknowledge the existence of privilege. Or something.
boston bean
(36,186 posts)Why are you framing it like that? Seems a bit strange to word it that way, if you ask me.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)to simply dismiss the subject wholesale, which I strongly suspect was the OP's real intent.
SirRevolutionary
(579 posts)"Let's work to end all discrimination" leads to better discussion of issues vs call outs and accusatory language.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)is acting in good faith. Which, given some of his previous posts on the subject of race, is certainly a questionable assumption.
SirRevolutionary
(579 posts)but in general I mean, I agree the over all tone on DU should be less accusatory and more "let's unite and work towards a common goal". Seems like lately there's been a lot more division here than there used to be.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)While I think there is some validity to the "both sides do it" argument, most of the problem, from my vantage point, is people bringing often transparently right-wing talking points to a left-leaning discussion site and expecting that shit to fly.
One reason I get so frustrated when discussions get bogged down with personal conflicts, as opposed to substantive sociopolitical issues like racial and gender equality, is that, ideally, I would prefer to argue with ideas rather than people myself. But when certain posters insist on making everything about them, to the extent that all discussions apparently must cater to their personal whims and preferences - and then they project that very quality onto others - I get pretty sick of it pretty quickly.
SirRevolutionary
(579 posts)I know there's a handful of long time DUers who seem to stick to a single issue and rail against anyone who disagrees. This is where I primarily see the breakdown in discourse when threads quickly turn for the worse and the OP is lost entirely. Personally, I'd be more often tempted to enter into discussion on many threads until I see them fall apart like that, like I'm walking into an old family argument with familiar players vs debating a topic openly with hope it can evolve into a good conversation.
I think debating an idea, like you and the OP basically said, is the way to go rather than labeling, projecting, and ostracizing people who disagree. Those are indeed puke tactics.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)as very "progressive" in whatever respects. Maybe I'm too optimistic here, but I'd like to think that that might be the basis for some beneficial (to all of us) self-reflection. Sure, heavily criticizing people isn't as likely to win them to your point of view, but there's a certain point past which one has to cut through all the disingenuousness and defensiveness and say, in essence, "Fuck that noise!"
To be brutally honest, I have serious reservations about the OP's sincerity RE: ending discrimination, given how many past posts of his I've seen more or less downplaying specific instances of racism. We all have our blind spots, but when a person has been told over and over again that their posts are condescending and unhelpful - and even smack of privilege in and of themselves - yet they persist in the same approach, demonstrating cluelessness and arrogance all the while, I have to wonder just what they're trying to accomplish.
SirRevolutionary
(579 posts)I really don't know any history about the OP, so I can't say one way or the other if I think it's sincere. But generally speaking, I do agree with the premise that suggests wording things differently, like "let's work to end discrimination" vs "you're doing it wrong". And I mean generally speaking, not just for this topic. I've seen a lot of arguing towards people vs points here lately on a handful of topics and it seems to derail the conversations.