Naturopaths and the creep of pseudo-science

[SidDithers]

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/12/15/naturopaths_and_the_creep_of_pseudoscience.html

If provincial governments grant naturopaths their wish and make them a self-regulating profession, they will be putting patients' well-being at risk.

Ontario naturopaths are pushing hard to become a self-regulating profession, with expanded rights to prescribe drugs and order tests. Thankfully, the Ontario Medical Association is pushing back.

This is not a turf war — there are more than enough patients out there. Nor is the resistance from the medical community founded on a fear of loss of professional status. This is about patient safety and, more fundamentally, the role of science in the Canadian health care system.

Naturopathic medicine, despite its claims to the contrary, is not evidence-based. Given this reality, provincial health ministries need to carefully consider the long-term implications — including the legal and ethical challenges — of formally legitimizing the pseudo-scientific.

If naturopathic medicine were governed by science, as practitioners increasingly claim, they would not provide: detoxification services, homeopathic remedies, most herbal remedies, and cosmetic facial acupuncture. But these types of services are the core of naturopathic medicine.

Scarce health-care dollars should be spent on science-based medicine, not the collection of woo being peddled by naturopathic "doctors".

Sid

[eqfan592]

1. k&r! nt

[idwiyo]

2. k&r

[TM99]

3. Yup, turf wars still.

Naturopaths in Arizona get the equivalence of a medical school training with all the same anatomy, physiology, chemistry, pathology, etc. courses but they are also trained in using alternative & complementary treatments that work with, and not against, the allopathic DO's & MD's.

That training has positive consequences where these men and women think 'outside' of the box far more than the allopathic physicians that I have dealt with. As a pushing 40 year old man who had suffered with medical problems for two years with no MD or DO willing to explore outside of standard practices, my NMD was a welcome relief. He was the one who ordered labs that showed that I had a pituitary tumor that was reeking havoc on my entire endocrine system. I received referrals from him to the endocrinologist who confirmed the diagnosis. After surgery and during chemo, his 'naturopathic woo' supported my body in dealing with the harsh chemicals necessary for treatment. When I lost weight, the herbs he prescribed helped with the nausea and weight gain I sorely needed. His 'woo' of B12 injections and vitamin & herbal IV's boosted my immune system so that I didn't get secondary infections bacterial or viral. I also received acupuncture and tried homeopathy, the first helping me greatly, and the second only minimally but still noticeably.

There was not one bit of animosity from him towards the other MD's involved with my treatment and care. But quite a few MD's and nurses on the other side, even when observing the positive effects his 'remedies' had on me during all of this, were just assholes about it. The compassion he and his staff showed and still show was amazing compared to, again, many of the MD's that I have dealt with over the last seven years.

I needed both forms of medicine, and both worked for me. Call it anecdotal if you want, but I have observed this with others here as well. The OMA might want to look to those US states that train, license, and regulate the naturopathic profession. In these states, bullshit that could be harmful is dealt with swiftly and definitively. Pitting themselves against naturopaths does not help patients. It takes away options, choices, and support that can be used as a complement to the care & 'medicine' they prescribe.

When the allopathic medical professions start to deal with the harm they cause then they can worry about the 'woo'. The 3rd leading cause of death behind heart disease and cancer in the US is preventable medical error. Close to a half a million patients a year go to the hospital for surgery and care and die from errors that were completely avoidable.

Are there some dangers associate with herbs and vitamins? Sure. Over a ten year period several hundred died from the use of Ephedra. Compare this to Vioxx which killed anywhere from 10's of thousands to as many as 55,000 in four years. Several hundred, Sid, versus 50,000+? Yup, I am terrified of the 'woo'.

There is no grand conspiracy here. This is just old-fashion human behavior - greed, power, and control. Once gotten, it is rarely shared or relinquished.

[magical thyme]

11. thank you. I'll add that in Massachusetts, only licensed veterinarians

can legally perform chiropractic treatment, and Tufts University (and a couple other state Universities that I can't remember off the top of my head, maybe Colorado and Arizona) offer training in alternative treatments such as accupuncture and herbs.

This saved my dog, Jake's, life 6 years ago. He had a neck injury that was treated allopathically for 6+ months with metacam and rest on 3 occasions: first with the initial injury and next for pain between his shoulder blades and finally for pain in the lumbar region. The 2nd vet diagnosed him with moderate hip dysplasia, (nonexistant) herniated discs in the lumbar region and a (nonexistant) mass on his liver. By the time she was through (mis)treating him, he was passing chyme instead of poop, eating 3-4 pounds of food/day, carrying his bowl around begging for more, and starving in front of my eyes.

After her 2nd or 3rd voice message telling me "just keep doing what you're doing. you're doing all you can," I spent the night on the internet researching and the next day on the phone calling every major animal hospital within a day's drive.

The hospital an hour away referred me to a veterinarian/chiropracter/accupuncturist, who took us in immediately on an emergency basis. His had no mass on his liver and no herniated discs. L4-7 had subluxations, along with C3-4, and a couple between his shoulder blades (I forget which ones they were t-something I think).

One 15-20 minute chiropractic/accupuncture treatment eliminated *all* his symptoms. He was pain free and drug free. The only thing the other vet was correct on was the dysplasia. We returned every 2 weeks for a couple sessions to keep his vertebrae properly aligned while his sore and strained muscles, tendons and ligaments healed, and then annually for checkups for another 2 years.

Call it woo. Call it anecdotal. All I know is she saved my dog's life.

[MattBaggins]

133. There is no such word as allopathic

[riderinthestorm]

153. Webster's disagrees with you

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/allopathic

[MattBaggins]

158. It was a made up term

It is not a real word

[riderinthestorm]

167. Lol!

[MattBaggins]

214. LoL all you wantthere is no such thing as allopathy

except to Woosters

[H2O Man]

242. And where do "real" words

come from? Those that are not "made up"?

[niyad]

12. thank you so much for sharing your story.

[IdaBriggs]

39. "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

I think this holds true for most folks, including the medical community.

I have posted about the work I do with the Preemie Growth Project, and what we have learned is nothing short of stunning, but the political battles I am forced to deal with to get this investigated, when the basic concepts are standard industry practice for the veterinarians/animal husbandry industry, are simply flat out stunning. I would love to blame it on some "global pharmaceutical conspiracy" but the truth is that getting things investigated "outside the realm of current understanding" depends on funding, personality, prestige, and a host of barriers that those outside of the situation have zero comprehension about -- and while some people might think "grad students" are a dime a dozen, if you aren't in the field, finding them to help analyze data is "challenging" to say the least!

The first thing to be addressed is the role of the "clinician" who sees patients and uses what they've learned in their schooling (which has some insane issues strictly there - don't get me started on the standard "residents should work 90+ hour work weeks, because sleep deprivation is a great way to train people!&quot , and the fact we keep getting the words "stunning" and "never seen anything like it" reported by the physicians and parents BUT NOT ONE PHYSICIAN HAS *INITIATED* CONTACT WITH US. (I have lost count of the numbers I have spoken to, and apparently the protocol is very slowly gaining some traction with pediatricians - maybe. Sigh.)

I choose to believe they aren't oblivious to the "miracles" they are seeing (direct quotes), but instead think they are happy to see patients who do not need their assistance / can then move on to the next who *does* need their help. This may be naive, but it is how I don't end up howling with rage because, while I am a woman of faith, I know that the "miracle of science" is that you can repeat the results, and with the number of babies/children we've done that with now, somebody should bloody well be paying attention -- And They Aren't.

(Disclaimer: I was instructed by an NIH physician to write an article for one of the medical journals; when I contacted the journal, I was told that there was no spot for an article by someone like me under the submission guidelines. Yeah, team!)

And then there are the "researchers" who are very busy dealing with their own projects and the politics of their various organizations. I have lost count of the number who are interested in what we are seeing, and really think "someone should investigate that" -- really? What a bloody good idea!

And then, while this takes YEARS to get through, and eventually does get the rigorous formal investigation it should get (which will take years more), the very conservative organizations in charge of things lose their credibility with the people who can investigate it for themselves, and see the results that cannot be duplicated by the methods currently in use *because they don't know how to look at the whole picture*.

Oh, and don't get me started on the folks who are running the organizations that supposedly advocate for the people affected by these conditions -- nice people, but unless I want to donate a couple of thousand dollars to each organization to attend their conventions as a vendor (with nothing to sell, by the way), well, the space is all filled up. (To be fair, they use the conventions to cover the operating costs of the different organizations, which support the conventions, which are great opportunities to get everyone up to date on the latest research data, and getting published is Really Important.)

I am struggling with the summary for the Project, and how to explain things that seem (at this point) so blatantly obvious to anyone who spends more than five minutes thinking about things. To be honest, at this point I am convinced that if someone like myself can see it (with the initial data coming from reading about how to eat while pregnant, then seeing what happened to my own children, then reading the d*mn medical textbooks and journals and putting the pieces together, then seeing what happened to the other children who followed the same protocol), What The Heck Is Wrong With These People that they didn't figure it out already?

Eh, my little rant about my little corner of the planet. But swear to heavens, the next person who says, "well, if what you are saying is true, then they will come beating a path to your door, which means you are not telling the truth!" is going to get an earful.

And don't ask me to say anything nice about the March of Dimes. Seriously, at this point, I think those folks are just in business to make sure they keep making money.

Grrr...

[MattBaggins]

131. There is no such word as allopathic

[pnwmom]

159. From dictionary.com

al·lop·a·thy [uh-lop-uh-thee] Show IPA
noun
the method of treating disease by the use of agents that produce effects different from those of the disease treated (opposed to homeopathy ).
Origin:
1835–45; < German Allopathie. See allo-, -pathy

Related forms
al·lo·path·ic [al-uh-path-ik] Show IPA , adjective
al·lo·path·i·cal·ly, adverb
Dictionary.com Unabridged

[madinmaryland]

203. It's a type of beer?? India Pale Ale??

[TM99]

245. That's your reasoned argument?

There is no such thing as 'woo' either. It is a made up word in the last decade. At least allopathic is several hundred years old from an original German term.

[DesertFlower]

210. i live in arizona and have been

treated my naturapaths with some good results. they never did anything that could harm me. actually it was a naturapath who prescribed medical marijuana for my pain because she was concerned that the vicodin would harm my liver.

i had a car accident years ago and had airbag burns on my chest and arm. the airbag actually tore my watch off my arm. before going home my husband took me to my naturapath. she gave me arnica pills and arnica cream. within a few days the airbag burns were gone, she also did great spinal manipulation.

for the last few years my dermatologist who is very well known started giving arnica and arnica cream after injections of fillers to speed up the healing.

[intersectionality]

4. US hospitals don't follow evidence based-practices for birthing mothers, either.

Cascading interventions that endanger mom and baby so surgery has to be done causing section rates hovering in the 30%-40% rate, but varying widely by city (and even moreso by hospital). US healthcare experts created standard practices that leave us with one of the highest birth mortality rates in the developed world. I mean, I get why we should expose this specific problem, but let's not play - the US medical industry's most common practices are oftentimes driven by people intending to make a profit as quickly as possible, health of the patient(s) and evidence be damned.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. US birth mortality also result of bad nutrition & lack of pre-natal medical care.

The Republican solution: cut Food Stamps and fight ObamaCare. That way they will always have lots of moochers victims they can blame for the ills of society and to pump up the Prison-Industrial Complex. All the better to prosecute the War on Women, too.

[loudsue]

5. Commercial/corporate based health care is killing people just as fast,

if not faster, than naturopathy. People who don't get that "science" is BASED on nature ("natur"opathy), then they are living in some bizzaro reality that doesn't exist as far as the human body goes.

[cleanhippie]

23. Science is not based on "nature", it's based on a method.

It's called the Scientific Method, (Use google for more info) which uses empirical. evidence and testable, repeatable, falsifiable results.

It has little to do with "nature" in the manner you imply.

[loudsue]

63. Last I checked, Nature does a pretty good job, too.

Nature is what makes the scientific method WORK.

[cleanhippie]

72. While I see your point, it seems to be too ambiguous an application

Of the word "nature" in regard to the topic.

[Humanist_Activist]

87. Nature does a pretty good job at what? n/t

[reformist2]

183. Curing, healing. Often better than chemicals and surgery.

[Humanist_Activist]

185. That makes no sense, you do realize that life itself is just chemistry...

and chemicals that can maintain a type of homeostasis internally. Right?

Also, when we allow "nature" to take its course, almost half of children died before the age of 5 and the average life expectancy was about half what it is today. I'll take those horrible chemicals(that we require to live) and surgery, when necessary, over whatever you are peddling.

[reformist2]

188. Um, not really. Most drugs are synthesized in labs to block biological processes & destroy things.

I'm not an all or nothing type - I think naturopathy should be the first line of treatment for most illnesses, with the more extreme measures to be resorted to only when natural methods fail - doctors are way too eager to prescribe medicine and surgery when neither is really recommended. Why do they do it? You know perfectly well why.

[Humanist_Activist]

192. Is there evidence of your first assertion? In addition, define "naturopathyl", also...

can you tell me what makes it innately superior to "traditional" or as I like to call it "tested" medicine?

[eqfan592]

200. Unless you have evidence to support your assertion, it's complete nonsense. nt

[phantom power]

6. Any industry that asks to be "self regulated" should get twice the regulations

The entire concept of "self regulation" is fucking ridiculous. I can't believe these proposals are ever taken seriously.

[Tumbulu]

128. Exactly what the companies who produce gmo's do, they self regulate....

makes me really feel like trusting them.

[KittyWampus]

7. So how did that "real" science of thalidomide and premarin work out?

[bhikkhu]

19. The science behind it was inadequate, and the drug approval procedures were tightened

Science has the necessary tools to recognize and correct errors.

Naturopathy (and homeopathy, and others) is generally safer in that it generally engages nothing more than the placebo effect. As long as the sickness is only in the mind they work fine.

[phil89]

20. Thank you

Well put. It's so odd that people criticize change in science as if it's a bad thing.

[SheilaT]

27. More to the point with thalidomide,

it was not approved in this country even though it had been approved in Europe. The head of the FDA said the studies were inadequate and wanted more done before approving it here.

So Europe had the "epidemic" of thalidomide babies. The only ones born here were to mothers who'd gotten the drug elsewhere.

[cthulu2016]

30. You forgot the H-bomb, and fire... and lawn darts

[msanthrope]

56. Thalidomide never was approved by the FDA. So the science worked. nt

[MineralMan]

319. Well, the use of thalidomide was not approved in the US.

The FDA refused to approve it, and that saved a lot of American women and their children from its harmful effects. That's a good example of how evidence-based medicine is regulated for the protection of patients. Of course, there are situations where medications ended up being more harmful than beneficial results warranted. In those cases, the regulation was not sufficient. In actual fact, more regulation, not less, is needed.

For "natural" remedies, regulation is almost non-existent, despite the harm done in many cases by people relying on untested or even completely useless "natural" remedies.

The alternative medicine sector resists all regulation, which should be a warning signal to everyone. Despite, for example, the multi-billion dollar pseudo-pharmaceutical industry's resistance to regulation, exactly that kind of regulation is what's needed for the protection of those who may be duped into believing that some alternative treatment is better than normal medical treatment. People's lives have been lost through that belief. Far too many people's lives have been lost by substituting ineffective or worthless treatment for treatment that actually can help them.

If the alternative medical community wants to be respected, it needs to allow itself to be examined. Until then, it is woo, pure and simple. Any practitioner who uses homeopathic remedies, for example, is a fraud. Homeopathy should be prohibited altogether. Yet, many naturopaths use it on a regular basis, thus duping their patients into thinking they are getting some sort of actual treatment, instead of just water. Homeopathy is a fraud.

[politichew]

8. YEP.

They use people's fear of "the man" to sell them modern day snake oil.

It's sad.

[longship]

9. Yup. N.D. == Not a Doctor

They are deeply steeped in woo.

But as you see from the responses to your post, people like their woo.

I'll R&K anyway.

[TM99]

14. I don't like 'woo'...

I just don't like bullshit.

Some of us prefer not to view medicine as some ideological battlefield pitting drawing up sides against imaginary enemies like 'woo' when the profession has plenty of its own issues including deadly problems like medical errors and whose true stated goal should be about alleviating the suffering of patients and healing them.

[longship]

16. Naturopathy IS error, which is why it deserves the "woo" label. nt

[TM99]

17. Again with the bullshit.

Read my first post in this thread. Medical error accounts for 3rd highest number of deaths in the US, and it is entirely preventable. Please provide data to show that the deaths from licensed NMD's using complementary medicine even comes close to that figure. You won't be able to so you keep spouting the 'woo' bullshit.

Same story, different day.

[Scootaloo]

21. Fallacious argument

One, medical error isn't even on the fucking charts, as far as cause of death in the US goes.

second, asking for data about NMD about that, is about the same as asking for data about ice cream truck drivers.

[TM99]

22. Not fallacious in the least.

1) http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/871/56/

2) If you are going to discuss the dangers of NMD's, the harm they cause, and the deaths, please be prepared to back it up with rational arguments and data.

If not, you are just spouting an irrational and emotional argument against 'woo' that is bullshit.

[MattBaggins]

138. That website is a load of tosh

[Ms. Toad]

205. Just because a website you don't respect quotes research

doesn't make the research bad.

Here is a link to the underlying article, published in JAMA - the Jouranal of the American Medical Association, from which the data is taken: http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/iatrogenic.pdf

[MattBaggins]

221. The figures in that report for iatrogenic deaths are hogwash

and the same bad research is being used over and over.

Those death estimates are down right silly.

[Ms. Toad]

229. It would be a lot more productive for you to actually take the time

and explain specifically the errors you find in the report.

It was solid enough for the AMA (not known as a purveyor of hogwash) to publish it. Feel free to pick it apart, but merely repeating that it is hogwash is not a scientifically appropriate response - as long as you're insisting your objections are based in science, you ought to be able to provide science based reasons for rejecting the analysis.

[MattBaggins]

231. No those numbers have been posted on DU multiple times

and debunked. Please feel free to examine the research used and track down the original studies and see why they are so flawed.

Bad models. Bad data sets. Bad interpretation of results by people LOOKING to claim iatrogenic deaths are high.

I will do one for you... This bit of bunk is used in that delightfully silly piece.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9555760

[Ms. Toad]

233. Not good enough.

You've been provided a link to the article, please provide specific concerns using the information from the original JAMA article.
Just claiming hogwash over and over again is not an science based, or otherwise appropriate, argument.

Feel free to link to another peer reviewed article debunking it. Or to specific discussions on DU which do more than make conclusory arguments about it.

[MattBaggins]

236. I did enough for you

It speaks for itself.

It was a horrible analysis of incomplete data from a few American hospitals with a pathetically broad definition of adverse reactions.

It was a flawed study that the "squawk itatrogenic" crowd has been misusing ad nauseum

[Ms. Toad]

241. Taking just one number -

Total US death certificates citing medication errors (based on an actual review of death certificates): 244,388 from 1976 through 2006. That makes the average deaths per year from medication errors 7,883. Phillips DP, Barker GE, A July spike in fatal medication errors: a possible effect of new medical residents, J Gen Intern Med. 2010 Aug;25(8) 74-9.

Number reported in the Starfield study: 7000 deaths due to medication errors/ year.

That "horrible analysis of incomplete data" is pretty darn close to the actual count from an individual review of all US death certificates over 31 years - for the first statistic I checked.

So you might want to try again to actually support your conclusory statements with some evidence based analysis.

[Vashta Nerada]

44. Medical error accounts for the 3rd highest number of deaths in the US?

Not according to the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

The third cause of death, according to the CDC, is chronic lower respiratory diseases.

I'm more inclined to believe the CDC over an anonymous poster on an online discussion forum.

[TM99]

46. So do you believe

Barbara Starfield, MD, of Johns Hopkins School of Public Health published in the JAMA in 2000?

That was the result of her findings, and things have not changed since then, only worsened.

But hey, I am just an anonymous poster on an online discussion forum that does his research.

[Vashta Nerada]

70. You don't back up your assertions with links.

Until you do, I don't believe a damn word.

[Ms. Toad]

207. Here's a link

(Not that it would have been that hard to look up the article from the link that was provided)

http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/iatrogenic.pdf

[TM99]

247. I provided links

and others have provided further ones.

Funny how those who attack 'woo believers' are such blind disbelievers themselves.

[MattBaggins]

137. No one cares about your distractions

First off I HIGHLY doubt your claim that medical arror deaths are so high.

Second that has NOTHING to do with the fact that naturopathy is nonsense.

[TM99]

246. No one cares about your assholish opinions.

That's all they are.

I provided links and others provided direct links to the research. Doubt all your want but isn't that just the flip side of blind belief?

Naturopathy has a wide variety of treatment methods and modalities. Some like homeopathy are being shown to be nothing more than placebo. Others like nutrition, herbal medicine, lifestyle management, and acupuncture (to name just a few) have plenty of research and empirical evidence to back up their effectiveness.

[MattBaggins]

275. Accupuncture has exactly zero LEGITIMATE reasearch

to back it up.

You try to make it seem as if eating well and exercising are something actual doctors don't know about?

Naturopathy is still bunk. Vitalism is nonsense.

[TM99]

276. Your willful ignorance is as bad as

a fundamentalist Christian's.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture (Main site for the subject)

Yup, the NIH has done exactly zero LEGITIMATE research.

[MattBaggins]

292. NCAM is a joke

It was pet project of Hatch and Harkin to force the NIH to waste funds on voodoo projects. It's entire existence is due to the fact that none of the woo crappie passes the smell test of actual clinical trials.

NCAM is a joke and ought to be disbanded. It's a scam organization headed by people who want to slip bullshit under the radar.

Complete joke.

[TM99]

307. Yes, exactly like a Fundamentalist Christian.

You are not the one who decides if something is a 'joke' or not. It is not a waste of money by the NIH in my opinion to fund research to study the effectiveness of a cheaper and extremely safe alternative to pain management as it is currently practiced today, which bluntly is abysmally done.

These studies are as legitimate as the fast-track FDA ones for unproven pharmaceuticals that consumers have been hurt by repeatedly since its implementation. These studies are as legitimate as any other if they follow the 'rules' which they do.

There is nothing on this page that suggests even remotely that it is a 'scam organization headed by people who want to slip bullshit under the radar'.

http://nccam.nih.gov/about/ataglance

I even looked up their current FY 2013 funding. It is $120.7 Million. That is literally a drop in the bucket in the FY 2013 3.45 trillion dollar budget.

The only one peddling bullshit is you.

[MattBaggins]

309. I believe the woosters are like the fundies

their crap has no basis in reality... Just really really really believe that it works.

[TM99]

311. The only one full of crap

is you and your ilk.

I am done discussing it -- well attempting to do so -- rationally with someone with a rigid mind full of emotional beliefs.

[MattBaggins]

312. lol

[zappaman]

313. Plus one.

[eqfan592]

201. You realize that "3rd highest number of deaths" number has been completely debunked, right?

The pseudo-science nutbag that spread it around failed to supply any evidence at all to support the assertion.

[cleanhippie]

26. It would seem that you are saying that naturopathy is evidence-based medicine.

And that simply is not true.

[TM99]

36. Evidence INFORMED Medicine is not always the answer

and it tends to deny the study of other forms of medicine or healing like acupuncture and/or naturopathy for various reasons.

I will quote the Wikipedia article now for a discussion of its criticisms and issues:

Limitations and criticism

Although evidence-based medicine is regarded as the gold standard of conventional clinical practice,[citation needed] there are a number of limitations and criticisms of its use,[2] many of which remain unresolved despite nearly two centuries of debate.[37]

EBM produces quantitative research, especially from randomized controlled trials (RCTs). Accordingly, results may not be relevant for all treatment situations.[38]
RCTs are expensive, influencing research topics according to the sponsor's interests.
There is a lag between when the RCT is conducted and when its results are published.[39]
There is a lag between when results are published and when these are properly applied.[40]
Certain population segments have been historically under-researched (racial minorities and people with co-morbid diseases), and thus the RCT restricts generalizing.[41]
Not all evidence from an RCT is made accessible. Treatment effectiveness reported from RCTs may be different than that achieved in routine clinical practice.[42]
Published studies may not be representative of all studies completed on a given topic (published and unpublished) or may be unreliable due to the different study conditions and variables.[43]
EBM applies to groups of people but this does not preclude clinicians from using their personal experience in deciding how to treat each patient. One author advises that "the knowledge gained from clinical research does not directly answer the primary clinical question of what is best for the patient at hand" and suggests that evidence-based medicine should not discount the value of clinical experience.[28] Another author stated that "the practice of evidence-based medicine means integrating individual clinical expertise with the best available external clinical evidence from systematic research".[1]
Hypocognition (the absence of a simple, consolidated mental framework that new information can be placed into) can hinder the application of EBM.[44]

The issues boil down to problems with research based science and patient driven clinical experiential practice. And as others have mentioned through out this thread, money and power can corrupt any human endeavor including 'evidence-based medicine'. Drugs get approved that shouldn't be. Medical errors rack up countless preventable deaths instead of fixing those errors with proper money and resources. Just as allopathic medicine has research that backs up some aspects and doesn't others, its time to do the research on complimentary forms of healing as well. Some will stand up, some will be only placebos, and some will be discounted as useless if not harmful. To date, 'useless' has not been as harmful as critics of naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc. have claimed.

The problem many of us, myself included have, is this. When so-called self-proclaimed scientific rationalists start throwing around such emotionally charged words as 'woo' and immediately close their minds to the research that is even out there in such fields as psychoneuroimmunology, NIH studies showing the effectiveness of acupuncture in pain management, etc., they are frankly anything BUT scientific or rational.

[cleanhippie]

38. While there are problems with the practical application of EBM

Naturopathy lacks the empirical evidence to support its efficacy.

And without any evidence to support its efficacy (usually because the results of a scientific study dont produce any) we k ow that it's not doing what it claims its doing.

[TM99]

40. Again,

as mentioned in another reply in this thread, naturopathic treatments include things as diverse as acupuncture, herbal medicine, homeopathy, nutrition, and lifestyle management. Outside of homeopathy, all of those areas of practice have been studied empirically, showing positive results both in research and in their clinical application, and are still ignored. Why?

Is it because there is only a focus on 'woo' and not what naturopathy actually is?

Is it because it will challenge financial monopolies?

So yes, many if not most aspects of a licensed NMD's medical practice involves treatments that are a major part of evidence based medicine if that is strictly about the empirical evidence and efficacy of treatment.

[Rex]

52. "Is it because it will challenge financial monopolies?"

NOT saying that THAT might be it...but that is TOTALLY IT!

[Humanist_Activist]

90. Why the fuck are you lumping in things that actually work(nutrition and lifestyle management)...

with outright bullshit that is impossible to work like homeopathy?

[etherealtruth]

177. No shit

Lump homeopathy in with any "alternative" treatments and you know immediately that the speaker (writer) doesn't now what the hell they are talking about

[Humanist_Activist]

187. Pretty much, even more aggravating when they use terms they don't know the meaning of...

Look below, I'm debating with someone who thinks herbal teas are a homeopathic remedy! People need to learn what the hell they are talking about.

[etherealtruth]

219. Oh believe me I have had the same conversation

... over and over on the subject.

I didn't scroll down .... but, it is often a kindness to provide a definition of homeopathy. Hopefully, they really do not believe homeopathy is even possible ...?

[TM99]

243. Oh for pity sake,

try to keep up.

Opinionated assholes start throwing around meaningless emotionally charged words like 'woo' with regards to naturopathy.

Here in the US, 22 states license and regulate NMD's. Do you even know what the fuck that means?

NMD's use a variety of treatment modalities. Out of the ones mentioned, homeopathy is the only one that has not had research that supports the claims of the users outside of a placebo effect. I have no problem acknowledging that. But the remaining modalities that are the bulk of an NMD's clinical practice DO have evidence to show their effectiveness - i.e. nutrition and lifestyle management.

NMD's in these states that also allow for the training and prescribing of drugs & doing minor surgery work hand in hand with allopathic EBM. I have chronic BPH and am prone to UTI's. My NMD can prescribe an antibiotic for a full blown infection AND suggest the use of cranberry extract for preventive care. And here is the empirical research to back up such a usage -
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/263426.php

[Humanist_Activist]

251. The issue is one of credibility, homeopathy doesn't work, not in the sense...

that it could work, but that it is absolutely impossible to actually work, so lumping it in with stuff that does work just damages their credibility.

[MattBaggins]

139. They have not been studied empirically

and have not been shown to do squat.

[TM99]

244. So nutrition and lifestyle management have not been studied empirically?

Please. There is tons of research out there used by allopathic MD's & DO's daily in their treatment of heart disease, diabetes, etc. from the Mediterranean Diet to exercising 30 minutes a day, to Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction.

[Locrian]

33. I agree

Science is not immune to the influence of corporate marketing and money. Nor is it perfect in its method of generally treating a lot of research as 'isolated' instead of interconnected; I'm thinking of the GM research that doesn't take into account the multitude of interactions / combinations with the actual real world.

Science also has it's share of dogma, sacred truths, and hierarchy that are reluctant to change direction if 'new' ideas threaten it.

Of course, same applies to naturopathy - or *any* human activity - the error is thinking one system is perfect, when it is actually made of of real people. Or thinking that a perfectly 'logical' system would in any case be the right system - logical systems thinking by our top scientists in the 1950's 'logically' lobbied for nuking the Russians.

[Humanist_Activist]

91. Wow, never seen a post that lacked...pretty much all knowledge of science or how it operates. n/t

[temporary311]

95. You must've missed

the Moon Bombing threads.

[Humanist_Activist]

96. Oh damn, I remember those, people can just be nuts.

Then again, there are way too many people in this thread who seem to want us to live in grass huts and have as much as 1 in 3 women die in childbirth because "science is poison".

[Locrian]

112. a dogmatist

"Science" does not exist by itself - it's a human activity. And like it or not, subject to our 'humans' frailties and limitations / filters of what we call reality.

Stick your head in the sand, but until you realize that simple fact - you're no better than the supporters of the theocracies of old.


Don't think that makes me a supporter of magik fairy crystals and stuff. I abhor real 'woo'. I just see too much blind faith in 'science' that doesn't take into account the actual complexities of the real world - but dismisses any legitimate challenge as woo. Of course that doesn't make science bad, as it is the best we (fallible) people have.

[Humanist_Activist]

117. Science is a process designed to reduce and try to eliminate the things you criticize it for....

My only reasonable assumption is that you are ignorant of the scientific method.

[MattBaggins]

140. Science does deal with complexities of the real world

unlike woo though, it doesn't need to make them up pit of thin air.

[MattBaggins]

135. Baloney

The problems in healthcare are not an excuse to go off the deep end into a giant lake of steaming bullshit

[riderinthestorm]

13. I have the equine equivalent of tri-athalon athletes and we use all that "woo"

Chiropractic, acupuncture, natural herbal remedies, massage therapy - you name it, we use it.

Why? Because we love to throw away our money?

Nope, because it works. With animals you don't get a "placebo" effect. They can't "fake" a cure. There's either a result or there isn't.

These sport horses are competitive athletes - they are monitored, scrutinized and evaluated to the nth degree every single day - our vets work closely with, and oftentimes prescribe, all of the "woo" we use.

[Tumbulu]

132. This group ignores any evidence that they cannot understand

which is not the sign of a true scientist.

Sort of sad, really. But anyone actually producing things and growing crops or animals understands.

[eqfan592]

204. What complete bullshit.

If you can actually provide some evidence that isn't torn to shreds for being a load of crap to begin with, then maybe we can talk.

[Tumbulu]

270. An unwillingness to observe

reality, and cause and effect are part of the problem.

[eqfan592]

280. Given that you are describing almost exactly what science does....

...I think the problem with an unwillingness to observe reality is NOT on the part of science.

[Tumbulu]

289. I am describing what the scientific discipline requires of us

but a whole big group on DU who claim to be scientists and or skeptics (as though this is some technical term) refuse to allow themselves to observe anything whose proposed mechanism of activity makes little or no intellectual sense to them. So, they simply refuse to acknowledge it, or try to understand how or why it could be.

Very limited and fundamentalist in my book, Exactly what they make fun of all the time.

[eqfan592]

293. Do you have an example?

Because it sounds to me like you're describing scepticism of things for which there is no physical evidence, and if so, that's by definition NOT science.

[Tumbulu]

314. Just look at how the squad jumps all over anyone

who posts anything about responses to homeopathic remedies.

They will not agree to fathom that there can possibly be any response to them, simply because it is impossible that they could work.

People post all sorts of examples of how they worked for them, but all they can post is how it is impossible that the explanation of their activity could explain it. But never will they acknowledge the reality of the posters who respond. It simply cannot work, so all evidence is ignored or dismissed as crazy.

very tiring.

Real scientists would be curious of the outcomes and then seek to understand how a response could be generated. They would not dismiss the evidence, they would search for a better explanation of the mechanism.

[eqfan592]

315. You're talking about people relaying anecdotes, and anecdotes are not data.

And unless it is on a topic that hasn't already been studied, then exactly what level of curiosity do you expect people to muster? "Gee, here's something that's been shown to not work time and time again, but here's the one person on the internet who claims it worked great! Time to tuck back in!"

Sorry, but anecdotes are NOT evidence, and when said anecdotes completely conflict with established science, without providing a more solid basis for its assertion, then they should rightly be dismissed.

[Tumbulu]

317. No, we are not talking about anecdotes here

Look at the post above us, the person who raises and trains sports horses for a living. Look at the idiotic replies- get a new vet, etc.

As if this person would pay money to vets for useless help. As if these particular vets are idiots.

Where I am vets use all sorts of practices that the folks on DU would call woo. It just demonstrates how blind the DU "skeptic" squad is. And how out of date they are. And how they sort of are an embarrassment to liberals.

Vets were the first to embrace the use of Glucosamine on sports horses back in the early 80's, now it is a very popular and successful human supplement as well. Those of us who have organic livestock use homeopathic remedies quite a bit. To suggest that my sheep are fooled by a placebo, when I simply pour something into their water trough, is beyond preposterous. Do these methods work oftentimes, yes. Do they ever fail, yes. So, just because you or I do not understand how or why they could possibly work, why dismiss any actual evidence. And there is plenty of evidence, not just those who take the trouble to post their personal stories on a message board. Frankly I have stopped participating in these ridiculous arguments as I have decided that the most vociferous "skeptics" are simply frightened out of their minds. They just cannot handle it. I recall feeling the same way about homeopathy. I fell off my horse, my teacher popped these homeopathic arnica sugar things into my mouth and had me take them every 15 minutes and I never got a bruise and was completely OK. I keep arnica in my purse at all times now, 20 years later, it is unbelievable to me that it works. But my goodness, the amazing reduction in bruising is not deniable. And I could care less that I do not understand how it could possibly work and that someone can prove that it does not.

Why would successful vets, and livestock and sport horse breeders use all these methods if they did not work? Of course none of us may understand why they are working, or think that it is possible that the current explanations of why they work are believable. But so what? Why does one limit their observations and collection of evidence to only the things that they can explain? This is the opposite of how a real scientist approaches life.

[riderinthestorm]

322. I have to admit I'm flabbergasted at the knee-jerk reactions here

I've never participated in these kinds of threads before and so I guess I've kind of floated along in my own bubble that of COURSE everyone would be open to potential therapies.

I remember (in 1985!) when one of my vets injected snake venom into a tendon to try to stop muscle spasms. I thought that was pretty crazy. Of course botox is now a common practice for humans...

Glucosamine, chrondroitin sulfate, MSM - yup all of those came out of the sport horse world amongst so many other things that have helped not only horses but humans. The racehorse industry is WEALTHY and funds some of the top research - which helps ALL of us in the livestock industry. But if those vets decided beforehand that something was "woo" and refused to evaluate it, they'd be missing potential avenues of relief for millions of animals.

I for one am GRATEFUL for their open mindedness.

[Humanist_Activist]

332. If homeopathy works, its Nobel Prize winning, it would literally upend the entire scientific world..

we aren't talking about drugs or chemicals that work like they are supposed to in the real world, no we are talking about fucking magic water.

[Tumbulu]

358. Me too

It is so amazing to me that people here dismiss things out of hand simply because they cannot understand how it could work.

I am so grateful for vets!

[MattBaggins]

141. You need new vets

they are laughing all the way to the bank, I'm certain.

[Tumbulu]

269. See, proof right here

Obviously limited to only observing what you can understand rather that what is going on. Very limited and not truly scientific.

[Vashta Nerada]

15. Naturopath doctors are just like chiropractors: both are deeply steeped in woo.

Neither should be licensed.

[seattledo]

31. They're both faith-based healers

I worked for a chiropractor for about four months. I decided to start looking for another job when I heard the "doctor" telling a customer that she had cancer because her spine was out of alignment, and that he could cure it for only $3,600 for a series of twenty visits. He graduated from sherman.edu. You can go to their site and see all of the faith-based crap they push about how a massage can cure cancer.

[Vashta Nerada]

43. Oh geez.

[Dorian Gray]

273. That's the type of chiro

who should be forced out of business by the government.

[Scout]

118. chiropractic is not "woo"

you protestations notwithstanding.

[Humanist_Activist]

120. Really, so vitalism is a real thing?

[Scout]

123. don't know what you're talking about "vitalism"...

my chiropractor has never mentioned it.

so, i don't even know what you're trying to say...

[Humanist_Activist]

126. Chiropractic is based on the unproven hypothesis of "vitalism" from the 19th century....

its more or less a belief in a "life force", it leads to the belief that the body has an "innate intelligence" to heal itself. Straight chiropractors believe that vertebral subluxation leads to interference with an "innate intelligence" exerted via the human nervous system and is a primary underlying risk factor for many diseases. So they believe that manipulation of the spine can undo this interference and lead to cures for many diseases and conditions.

Granted not all Chiropractic practitioners are the same, and some are "mixers" basically they chuck away the stupid metaphysical stuff, don't claim to cure diseases, and basically become very expensive physical therapists for the spine, but less trained and more dangerous.

[Scout]

285. "very expensive physical therapists for the spine, but less trained and more dangerous"

HA
well, after my car accident, my primary care doc, my chiropractor, and my physical therapist worked very well together ... my chiropractor said i would need physical therapy and ultrasound treatments (i had 7 broken ribs, dislocated collarbone, broken left hip, and strained the ligaments (tendons? i forget) in one place in my back and in my neck. my primary care doctor concurred, and she prescribed the therapy. the physical therapist and the chiropractor consulted by phone before and during my weeks of therapy. i had several check-ups during the process with my primary care physician.

10 weeks after the accident, i had only a little aggravation from the broken ribs, but was otherwise FINE. i was back riding horses after a few weeks more.

you can call it woo all you want, but i know it works.

smart people know that with chiropractors, like MDs, some are charlatans, some aren't. you admitted as much yourself.

[Gravitycollapse]

127. Chiropractic is a pseudo-science. The argument that "adjustment" can prevent disease...

Is totally without merit.

Chiropractic follows the path of many other pseudo-sciences like acupuncture in that they are all based on antiquated medical knowledge.

[Tumbulu]

360. See, unwilling to observe evidence

Because you fundamentally cannot believe it can work.

Very limiting and simplistic.

[Humanist_Activist]

366. What evidence? n/t

[Tumbulu]

371. sorry, you do not seem to be reading the posts here.

please, it is really not scary. People use things that work, whether we can understand the mechanism of action or not.

[Humanist_Activist]

373. Testimonials don't mean anything without it being repeatable and testable...

its anecdotal and is only a single point of data that is worthless without some type of control.

[Tumbulu]

376. Oh get a grip, you are being particularly silly nt

[Scout]

382. do x-rays count?

my before and after x-rays show the changes.

since i guess my word isn't enough that my back pain is gone

[Humanist_Activist]

389. Has nothing to do with your word, it has to do with it being repeated and being...

testable in a clinical setting, with MORE THAN ONE DATA POINT, why are those of you who advocate for this stuff so opposed to it being tested?

[Humanist_Activist]

395. Also, I just wanted to point out that manipulation of the spine, by ANYONE...

trained about the anatomy of the spine can help and display positive results. Doesn't say much about Chiropractic as a whole practice though, a lot of it is just bullshit.

[Vashta Nerada]

122. Ha.

Okay.

[Scout]

124. brilliant, well documented response!

how is chiropractic medicine "woo"?

[Vashta Nerada]

142. Other posters here in this very thread have pointed that out.

I'm not going to repeat what they said.

[Scout]

284. how are taking and reading x-rays, woo?

funny, if chiropractic was just "woo" you wouldn't think Blue Cross would cover my visits...

if chiropractic is "woo", why is it that, after years of muscle relaxers, physical therapy, a heel lift for one foot--all conventional medicine, none of which worked--my chiropractor got rid of the pain in my lower back that i've had for the better part of my life (almost 40 years since i first had the pain, until it was eliminated). oh yeah, the conventional doctors all said "lose weight" which i have done over the years with varying degrees of success at losing and at keeping off. but guess what? fat or not, the back problem did not go away!!

do i use my chiropractor to prevent colds? the flu? no, i use the chiropractor to keep my spine aligned.

but you're convinced that you, oh mighty one, (and the others) just know everything all about it, aren't you? so i guess i've wasted my little bit of time here. oh well.

[pnwmom]

254. With regard to naturopathic doctors, the National Institutes of Health,

which funds naturopathic research, and the State of Washington, among other states, disagree with you.

[Vashta Nerada]

255. Good for them.

[reformist2]

18. Considering how much of 'scientific' medicine is poison, I say give the naturopaths a chance.

[intaglio]

73. Considering how much scientific and evidence based medicine cures

and how little harm it does, then tolerating the quacks should be outlawed.

[reformist2]

181. As far as I'm concerned, most modern medicine is still quackery.

A small percentage of the medicine they prescribe does any real good.

[TransitJohn]

184. Totally. Heart transplants, prosthetics, total quackery.

Along with the drugs that keep the body from rejecting transplanted organs.
Reattaching limbs and restoring their functionality? Woo.

[reformist2]

191. Those are extreme cases, not by any means the end result of most doctor visits.

Too many of you attackers assume that people who are for natural methods are against all forms of drugs or surgery.

Sorry, I don't fit into your simplistic view.

[TransitJohn]

209. Simplistic view? I took your simplistic statement at face value.

Maybe you should use English better.

[Humanist_Activist]

189. Ahh, the good old days. When smallpox killed millions, polio killed hundreds of thousands...

and maimed countless more, when getting an effing paper cut could kill you from sepsis, etc. It was SO much better than relying on modern day quackery. lol

[eqfan592]

206. Clearly an opinion grounded entirely in reality.

Or not...

[Humanist_Activist]

94. Have you looked up what some herbal supplements do to the human body?

Especially when taken too often? This is assuming the herbal supplement you buy actually contains what it says it contains, see, there's NO regulation of that in the United States, leading to a lot of people buy some really expensive wheat and rice flour in pill form.

[MattBaggins]

144. How about if we give the crazy homeless guy a chance?

My mechanic has made mistakes so I'm going to hire someone to massage the tires.

[Vashta Nerada]

145. You do know that supplements you buy at health stores is very expensive pee, right?

It doesn't do any good. In fact, many of those supplements can hurt you if you take too many.

Most of them don't get absorbed by the body. They are water-soluble and come out your pee.

[stevenleser]

282. Just about everything is "poison" if enough of it is consumed. That's not a good argument. nt

[SidDithers]

283. +1...

"The dose makes the poison".



Sid

[FairWinds]

24. There is a difference . .

between science-based health care, and that which is not.
I'll take the former.

[riderinthestorm]

25. Naturopathy is science, and evidence based, medicine

Its things like nutrition, exercise, massage, natural, non-pharmaceutical remedies, etc.

People on this thread seem to be confusing it with homeopathic medicine, which isn't science; it's things like aromatherapy, magnets, candles, scented oils, etc.

[cleanhippie]

28. About those non-pharmaceutical remedies....

They have little or no empirically-based studies to support their effectiveness.

[2naSalit]

98. and why would that be?

Because the medical industrial complex wouldn't allow any studies to be peer reviewed unless they are based on synthetic drugs rather than natural elements?

Maybe that would be why there are no studies. I, personally, have been studying natural health and remedies for decades and prefer those methods of maintaining my health and well being to paying untold sums to someone who can't figure out what the problems are and don't really give a rat's ass what the problems actually are as long as they can sell me costly synthetics and continued useless office visits and hospital tests that turn out to indicate anything other than eternal debt. All this while the alleged Dr. gets their kick-backs from big pharma and whomever else they can squeeze.

I'll take the natural path and live healthier and less inhibited than most folks. I treat only myself but will share my remedies that I make myself with those who ask me to share with them, I don't charge them anything... on occasion I have asked them to procure the ingredients for me to use in the making of remedies.

Call it names if you like but there are many who aren't interested in the "scientific" big pharma financed woo.

[cleanhippie]

160. There ARE studies. They just showed that they didnt work as advertised.

THAT is why there are no studies. Not because "big-pharma" prevents it, but because the studies that HAVE been done showed that what was being tested DIDNT work.

[kelliekat44]

308. As with many approved drugs on in the market. nt

[cleanhippie]

381. Is there a point you were trying to make?

Or are you just distracting from the issue were discussing.

[SidDithers]

32. Naturopathic doctors are taught, and promote homeopathy...

HOM100
Homeopathic Medicine I
This introductory course in homeopathic medicine introduces the basic concepts of homeopathy, including: an introduction to the history, principles and philosophy of homeopathic medicine; repertory; principles of homeopathic treatment; first aid prescribing; acute prescribing; and basic case-taking.

HOM204
Homeopathic Medicine II
Students continue their study of homeopathic medicine, and discuss the underpinning principles and philosophy, using The Organon of the Medical Art as a template. The materia medica of homeopathic remedies is taught according to their classification in the animal, plant or mineral kingdoms, as well as the families and/or groups within the kingdoms. Case studies are used to orient the student to the practical application of homeopathy, and students develop skills in homeopathic case taking, repertorizing, case analysis, and single-remedy prescribing taught in accordance with The Organon of the Medical Art. Textbooks and computer software are used in the delivery of the competencies, and students will have the choice to use hard copy book format or software format in case analysis.

HOM300i
Homeopathic Medicine III
Clinical exposure to case taking, case analysis and case management are the focus of this course, which consolidates knowledge from HOM100, HOM202 and HOM203. Real cases are presented and managed by advanced practitioners who are experienced in the field of homeopathic medicine. This gives students the opportunity to witness various styles of homeopathic practice rooted in a classical homeopathic approach. Additionally, students prepare for their internship through independent study of acute and first aid materia medica.

Those courses are part of the curriculum offered toward the ND designation at the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine.
http://www.ccnm.edu/prospective_students/bridge/curriculum

Sid

[FarCenter]

47. At least homeopathic medicines do no harm

Since they have been diluted until there are no active ingredients in them.

The LD50 for water is pretty high.

[SidDithers]

49. Yup. The only benefit of homeopathic "medicine" is that it won't directly kill you...

Sid

[Humanist_Activist]

93. Actually it depends, some of the places that make "homeopathic pills"...

have been found to contain broken glass and other contaminants, at least in Britain, here in the United States, I don't even think that the U.S. government is empowered to inspect such factories for safety.

[SidDithers]

107. There was also the Zicam case a few years ago...

Zicam was an homeopathic zinc nasal spray which caused hundreds of people to lose their sense of smell. 'Course, the homeopathic dilution was only 2X, which meant that the mixture still had enough zinc in it to actually do harm.

If Zicam had only marketed a "stronger" 20X or 20C version of their product, nobody would have been harmed at all.

Sid

[Humanist_Activist]

108. Isn't that the one that causes anosmia? Losing your sense of smell...

the fucked up part is I think its still on store shelves.

[SidDithers]

111. Yup, that was the one...

as far as I know, Zicam in pill form is still available, but the nasal spray has been discontinued.

Sid

[u4ic]

129. I, and many, lost the sense of smell from Flonase

and that's still on the market. Many nasal steroids have the same effect.

[Humanist_Activist]

134. Its a rare side affect, at least you were informed of it before hand...

Zicam is available over the counter, had no warnings at the time, and is unregulated.

On edit, just a note, but severe allergies can also lead to anosmia.

[u4ic]

136. No I wasn't informed

until AFTER it happened. It's not a rare side effect, either. Nasal perforations with that medication are rare, but not losing ones sense of smell.

[Humanist_Activist]

143. It appears it is rare(about .3%), and indeed, Flonase is used to restore sense of smell for some...

people who lost it due to infection and inflammation of tissues in the nasal cavity.

http://www.justanswer.com/medical/3wf3l-diagnosed-anosmia-ent-gave-rx-flonase-seems-cou.html

http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.pharmaceutical/b2.1.monographs/CPS-%20Monographs/CPS-%20%28General%20Monographs-%20F%29/FLONASE.html

[riderinthestorm]

100. So do some veterinary schools. Are they quacks too?

The veterinary industry utilizes a fair few homeopathic remedies - from liniments to herbal teas.

[SidDithers]

101. Yeah, linaments and herbal teas aren't homeopathy...nt

Sid

[riderinthestorm]

165. And homeopathy as well as other "alternative" medicines. nt

[SidDithers]

195. I'm starting to think you really don't know what homeopathy is...

and what it isn't.

Sid

[riderinthestorm]

260. Gosh thanks! 25+ years of using arnica and other homeopathic remedies

At the direction of my vets means I'm clearly ignorant! Have been debunked by an internet guy! Phew!

Thanks for that.

[SidDithers]

261. What's the dilution on the arnica you use?...

Edit: Please tell me it's a 1M dilution, like the homeopathic arnica found at horsehomeopathy.com.

Pretty please.

Sid

[riderinthestorm]

265. Don't know at the moment. I'm about to go to bed

And the arnica is in the barn.

Whatever the dilution is however, it works or we wouldn't use it at the direction of licensed clinical vets.

And if our vets didn't provide relief to our horses we'd fire them.

My business as a trainer is 100% results oriented. If the horse can't perform I'm fired so I have a vested interest in things that are demonstrably proven to work.

[eShirl]

106. I'm sure they mean well.

[riderinthestorm]

169. As repeated before, the horses can't lie. It either works or not.

There's restored functionality or not. Its pretty simple.

I'm grateful they use every tool available - including homeopathy, and alternative meds like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. They go beyond "meaning well" to making the animal well.

[MattBaggins]

146. Are they quacks? You betcha

[riderinthestorm]

166. Sorry but the horses can't lie. They either get restored functionality or not from the remedies

There's no placebo effect with animals.

Virtually every top international equine athlete is equipped with (gasp!) magnets prescribed by the best vets in the world (eek! quacks galore!) and chiropractic and acupuncture and massage therapy and yes, even (dare I say it?!) arnica!

[MattBaggins]

218. Of course they are

There are a lot of folks in that world with more money then sense. Easy marks for scam artists.

[riderinthestorm]

259. Either the animal is restored to functionality or it isn't.

Either the horse can jump 5 foot or it cannot.

That isn't a scam nor is it a mirage.

You can't make the horse do it if they are physically unable. They'll simply lie down or worse. If the chiro isnt working NO owner/vet/trainer will simply continue with the treatment in some vain hope of a result. You expose your ignorance of professional sports (or even a one horse amateur) with each stupid comment. 1. We want success and 2. We care about the horses and 3. Nobody will continue to dump $$ into a treatment that isnt effective. Nobody. From a billionaire sheikh to a backyard amateur.

[Humanist_Activist]

175. Do you know what homeopathic remedies actually are?

Its not liniments or herbal teas.

[riderinthestorm]

178. Yes. Arnica and other homeopathic remedies are regularly used

Sorry I wasn't explicit.

[Humanist_Activist]

180. You seem to be confusing herbalism with homeopathy...

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

If it isn't just water, it isn't homeopathy.

Let me put it this way, homeopathy isn't just nonsense, the underlying ideas behind it are so nonsensical that IF it actually worked, then the past 500 years of scientific discoveries, ALL OF THEM, would be disproved.

[riderinthestorm]

262. Arnica (for example) has always been a homeopathic remedy

Its not "just" water.

[Humanist_Activist]

271. Any Arnica homeopathic preparations contain none of the plant in them...

hence it is just water.

[riderinthestorm]

281. Animals cannot manufacture a placebo effect.

A treatment either works or it doesn't.

A horse has a sore back and won't tolerate a saddle. The vet does some chiro and acupuncture after which you can put a saddle on. Horses have a brain the size of a walnut - they can't rationalize "oh that woman stuck needles in me and so NOW I'm feeling better". They don't have the ability to "fool" themselves that suddenly they feel better because of a treatment.

It either works or it doesn't.

If it doesn't work, nobody's going to continue that treatment without a result. Sport horses aren't pasture ornaments - people have paid a shitload of money for a horse they want to compete with and learn on.

FWIW, horses have very specific ways of communicating when they're getting relief or they're relaxing - licking, chewing, sighing, yawning. The next time a horse of mine raps his knees on a fence and I'm applying arnica gel to the area, I'll let them know Humanist_Activist - the great equine expert - tells me that their relief-response isn't possible.

[Humanist_Activist]

291. Don't move the goalposts, and don't lump in other, unrelated treatments with homeopathy...

That was the thing we were talking about, why not stick to the subject at hand, or do you realize you have no argument when it comes to that?

[riderinthestorm]

316. I haven't moved the goalposts. Did you just gloss over my comment about using arnica gel?

[Humanist_Activist]

318. I have a question for you, HOW does the arnica gel work? n/t

[riderinthestorm]

320. I don't know and don't care. I (and my vets) just know it works

to reduce bruising and swelling.

Since drugs are prohibited (and tested for) in horse sports, you can't administer any pain relievers or anti-inflammatories so treatments like arnica are front line. Our horses do the human equivalent of the tri-athlon but before they move on to the next phase they are held for 10 minutes and extensively evaluated by a team of vets. At the upper levels these are the best vets in the US as they are evaluating them for international competitions.

And they recommend homeopathic drugs like arnica for bruising, stiffness and swelling. Like I said, the horses can't "lie" and manufacture a placebo effect. It either works or it doesn't.

I think its interesting how many human treatments have evolved from equine competition research. Of course, the racehorse industry is extremely rich and they heavily subsidize research into innovative treatments so they are often on the front line of experimentation. Equine research has to rely on strict observation and evaluation in order to test efficacy since their test patients can't articulate a verbal response.

I've never participated in these threads before and I'm pretty amused at the resistance of many people on this thread to "woo". No worries for me. I'm utterly comfortable being open-minded about trying products that may help my horses.

[SidDithers]

321. Well you can be sure that 1M Homeopathic Arnica won't be detected during testing...

because the chance that there is a single molecule of arnica being in the 1M homeopathic solution is infinitesimal.

Sid

[riderinthestorm]

323. Arnica is not a banned substance in competition nt

[SidDithers]

324. Wouldn't matter...

there's no arnica in 1M homoepathic arnica.

Sid

[riderinthestorm]

325. Just went out to the barn to check - its Arnica Montana

in both the gel and tabs.

But thanks for being so concerned that my horses might be faking their relief from a scam product!

[SidDithers]

327. I asked about the dilution...

The dilution is kind of the most important thing, when talking about homeopathy.

Sid

[BuddhaGirl]

329. It's interesting, that there's no placebo effect with animals.

Great testimony to the healing effects of homeopathy!

[Humanist_Activist]

331. I don't know why you are celebrating, this poster is being dishonest at the very least...

first off, and let me just make this crystal clear, homeopathy is just fucking water. In addition, this poster failed to mention the dilution level of the treatment for horses, all we have is this poster's "testimony" which is about as believable as the testimony of "ex-homosexuals".

[BuddhaGirl]

335. I like hearing positive testimonials about the success of using homeopathy.

There are waaayyyy more important things in life to be annoyed about than whether someone uses homeopathy, don't you think?

[Humanist_Activist]

337. That poster isn't using homeopathy, but a plant based gel that has an anti-inflammatory affect...

homeopathy cannot work, period.

[BuddhaGirl]

338. Um, okay

YMMV.

[Humanist_Activist]

340. Its about honestly, I would think it matters, this isn't a matter of opinion...

but of fact and truth. This poster has admitted to using a gel containing Arnica Montana, they have refused to mention how much of a dilution it actually is, most likely they are talking about a 50% solution, which is NOT homeopathy, at all, but rather, herbalism.

[Tumbulu]

361. Really, get a grip

arnica (homeopathic) is a backbone in animal care. Please just give it up.

It works on most animals amazingly well. It helps me very much.

Your insitance that IT CANNOT WORK is preposterous.

Go out to a competitive barn, look in the tack rooms. Come to my farm, go to an organic dairy. We all use homeopathic remedies on our animals. Our vets have us keep certain ones on hand to use until they can get to our farms.

Really, I suggest that you open up your eyes and mind.

It does not matter that it cannot work. it works for a whole lot of aimals and many people, that is what matters.

[Humanist_Activist]

365. Arnica ISN'T PRESENT in homeopathic preparations...

My fiancee has a topical ointment that has Arnica, Menthol, and Camphor in it, and its great at temporarily relieving joint pain. Why? Because it actually has those ingredients in it, not some magical memory water.

[Tumbulu]

370. agains you scream out your fundamentalism

which is really not liberal at all.

[Humanist_Activist]

372. Describe to me how it can be present in a solution at 30C, or 1 part per 10^60 of water...

when that far exceeds the molar limit.

[Tumbulu]

375. It does not matter

if you or I can understand it. it matters that if it works or not.

[Humanist_Activist]

379. Don't you want to know how it works, so you can better understand it? n/t

[Tumbulu]

401. Not knowing how it works does not stop me from

observing it's action. The explanations given for it's activity do not make sense to me. But so what? I personally do not have the time to venture into a research project to figure out why it is working. I have enough of my own discovery projects going on.

[Humanist_Activist]

403. So basically, to you, confirmation bias is enough. See, I would want to know.

Even you admit that its "activity" doesn't make any sense, isn't it possible that what you are observing is either confirmation bias and/or the placebo affect?

ON EDIT: To put it simply, this is a situation where Occam's razor is very helpful, and most likely leads to the truth, for example, in order for homeopathy to work, water(or other substances, like sugar) would have to have a type of memory, that means a storage medium, which can only exist at either the molecular, atomic, or subatomic level. We have yet to observe this, at all, indeed, we actually understand particle physics quite well. So, in order for there to be room for this memory, our entire understanding of the entire universe would have to be wrong, from subatomic particles to supernova, pretty much every field of science would be affected, physics, chemistry, biology, etc.

Or, more likely, you are displaying confirmation bias or experiencing the placebo affect.

Which do you think is more likely?

[Tumbulu]

416. Honestly, you cannot observe something

without an acceptable understanding of its mechanism?

This is very limiting.

Go make your own observations. I have made mine and am satisfied enough to keep arnica on hand at all times in my purse and various remedies on my farm for the sheep.

The horse trainer above has made her decisions as do all the vets who use them.

[Humanist_Activist]

421. Is it arnica or a placebo(homeopathic "preparation", whatever), there is a difference...

same for other remedies, don't call something homeopathic if it isn't, that's dishonest.

[Humanist_Activist]

336. Look what I found, a mechanism for Arnica Montana to work on horses!

A little research goes a long way!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17318618

It has an anti-inflammatory affect similar to NSAIDS when used in a gel of 50% concentration, however, ingesting it isn't recommended, it contains some poisons that can cause intestinal bleeding.

Of course, nothing I said above applies to homeopathic preparations of it. Which would contain little to none of the active ingredients needed to actually work.

[riderinthestorm]

341. The tablets say 30c.The gel has no indication. I've already said it works

15 tabs every 15 minutes for the first 2 hours. Followed by 15 tabs every hour for 24 hours (yes I have staff that helps with this). After which its every 6 hours as needed.

My my. I almost think you are wanting free medical advice. Tsk. Tsk. Your increasing agitation notwithstanding over the homeopathic dosage I use (which works by the way as per the dosing rx of my vets - yes plural as is common with sport horses I have 5 on call from 5 different vet offices, who are specialists in their area and who all prescribe arnica) the bottom line is that any homeopathic remedy was garbage in your opinion. Now its a question of strength?!

Lol.

I'm done here. You all got nothing. When your beloved dog/cat/bird/hamster - whatever needs relief and you find it with alternative medicine I won't laugh, mock or say I told ya so.

I don't give a shit about laughably ignorant DUers when it comes to those under my care, custody and control. I will do what gives them relief.

[Humanist_Activist]

342. So the pill contains nothing in it, the gel most likely does, and you claim I am ignorant...

look up the dilution levels if you don't believe me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions

[riderinthestorm]

346. Animals can't make up a placebo effect nt

[Humanist_Activist]

347. You keep repeating this, and while its true, its also irrelevent...

if the pill is nothing but a placebo in the first place, what is helping your animals?

Also note that the gel probably actually contains an active ingredient, I don't know, I haven't tested it, but the point remains, at the dilution level you just stated, there is NO Arnica extracts in the tablet, none.

[riderinthestorm]

350. Prayer? (I'm an atheist). Some "woo"vibe in my barn

And at every international eventing competition on the face of the planet including the Olympics?

Magic?

Some archaic arnica gawd interferences?

Or maybe like willow bark in the days before it was commodified into aspirin, or snake venom was manufactured into Botox, there's been no idea these remedies are valid?

[Humanist_Activist]

351. Willow bark contain Salicin, which metabolizes into salycyclic acid in the body...

which provides temporary pain relief in the body. Asprin is acetylsalicylic acid, which operates in a similar way in the body and is also easier on the stomach. You have yet to demonstrate ANY active ingredient in the homeopathic solution you have mentioned. What is in it that works? Its a simple question, a question I can answer about damn near every medicine I have ever taken, given to any of my animals, etc. whether prescribed or taken from cuttings off of plants I have cultivated or found myself, at least I know enough about chemistry and biology to know what is going on in general terms, and if I don't know a particular answer, I can research it easily enough.

So how does the homeopathic medicine work?

[Humanist_Activist]

353. Just did the math, the Arnica, in order to be diluted to 30C, had to be dissolved in a body of...

water that was in a tank that is a cube that is at least 31 million kilometers on each side. And that is for ONE molecule of Arnica dissolved in 29,915,093,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 liters of water.

[riderinthestorm]

352. Gosh then I'll have to SOMEHOW communicate to these horses they've been duped

All across the million member eventing community as well as my own 40 horse pro-sport barn that some internet dude says all of our horses are FAKING their recovery.

And my highly educated cynical-to-the-extreme vets.

Lol.

This is incredibly amusing.

Really.

(Small wry chuckle as I exit the convo)

[Humanist_Activist]

354. I don't see how you failing Middle School Chemistry is amusing. n/t

[Tumbulu]

362. So now it is down to personal insults

this is really low, simply because you cannot understand how something can work, those who use it to help their animals are now failures in science. No, this attitude that since it cannot be understood, it cannot be is the failure.

[Humanist_Activist]

364. As of right now, no one in this thread has described a way for homeopathy to work...

from what I have read, it cannot work without violating the laws of physics and chemistry. If anyone can demonstrate the effectiveness of any homeopathic remedy in a double blind study, and are able to describe how it works within biological processes, then I will pay attention, until then, it is nothing more than magic.

[Tumbulu]

369. No, you have decided that it is magic

and you dismiss everything that anyone takes their precious time to share on this public board that you cannot understand.

And then you insult them, really this is not OK. it turns people off.

[BuddhaGirl]

357. LOL

"All across the million member eventing community as well as my own 40 horse pro-sport barn that some internet dude says all of our horses are FAKING their recovery."

Good one!

[BuddhaGirl]

343. It's amusing how annoyed they become

Just ignore the nay-sayers....really, it doesn't matter what they say, you won't change their minds and they won't change yours.

The only important thing is, is that you continue your success with homeopathy and your animals. I've used homeopathy on animals and have had success as well. There is no placebo with animals and its amazing to see the response to the medicine.

[Humanist_Activist]

345. Do you really think water contains a memory of things dissolved in it in the past?

Do you honestly think water is magic?

ON EDIT: Its like I'm talking to flat-Earthers or Creationists, I just don't understand how people can be gleefully ignorant of the natural world to this extent, its sad.

[SidDithers]

356. Perfect analogy...

They're getting scammed and they don't care.



Sid

[Tumbulu]

363. it has nothing to do with belief

and everything to do with trial and error and observation of cause and effect.

Really, open your eyes and observe.

[riderinthestorm]

348. Yup. The chiropractor vet is from Cornell

The acupuncture vet is from University of Iowa. My field service vets are from U of Illinois, my lameness vet is from Purdue.

Clearly from quack institutes.

When they're all stumped we head to Rood and Riddle in Lexington KY, nobody better on the planet when it comes to equine diagnosis.

This is my maiden voyage into these threads. I think I've played this out.

I have zero need to convince anyone. I just know with 110% certainty what I put out here on the internets.

[BuddhaGirl]

349. Thanks for your posts

Hopefully others who are more open-minded will think about trying homeopathy with their animals.

[SidDithers]

355. 30C means there's no arnica in the tablets...

30C: 1 ml in 1,191,016 cubic light years

Yet another illustration: 1 ml of a solution which has gone through a 30C dilution is mathematically equivalent to 1 ml diluted into 1054 m3 - a cube of water measuring 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1018) metres per side, which is about 106 light years. When spherical, then it would be a ball of 131.1 light years in diameter. Thus, homeopathic remedies of standard potencies contain, almost certainly, only water (or alcohol, as well as sugar and other nontherapeutic ingredients).

1 milliliter of arnica into a sphere of water 131 light years across.

You're getting scammed and are wasting your money. You could give sugar tablets and get the same result.

Sid

[Humanist_Activist]

330. "I don't know and don't care." This sums it up, faith based treatments, you just...

"know" it works, and you even fail to list the dilution level or even all the ingredients in it. If there's menthol in that gel, or aloe, then at least we would know how it works on horses.

[SidDithers]

263. I'm beginning to think they're serious...

http://www.horsehomeopathy.com



Sid

[Tumbulu]

374. Good grief, have you never been to a horse barn

or an organic dairy?

Can you be writing so much about something that you have never used or observed others using?

Please this dismissal of technologies whose mechanisms cannot be understood by you or me is silly. Practical people, like vets and the horse trainer above, and me, use products that help our animals. We will not use things that do not work regularly on our animals. I could care less if you can understand why they work. So what? If they help the animals, then they are on the shelf, available for use.

[SidDithers]

380. Organic /= homeopathic...

Do you have no concept of what homeopathy is? Are you really defending the idea that water has memory, that it remembers the arnica even if there's no actual arnica in it?

Really?

Sid

[Tumbulu]

383. Are you trying to be funny?

Really, read the organic standards.

There is no = sign there, but go to an organic dairy, or livestock operation and you will see plenty of homeopathic remedies on the shelves. For that matter, go hang out with a livestock vet. And not only one who helps the organic farmers. Especially the expensive horse vets. Have you not been reading the posts that you spout off insulting replies to?

My goodness, you are behind the times.

Only a few people who obviously have nothing to do but post on message boards are all nutty about this concept that "it is just water!!!" and similar ridiculous temper tantrum rants.

What do you think the the horses that the horse trainer you insultingly argued with above cost? Any idea? My guess is in the 50-150K (and that is perhaps a low ball figure, I don't know her or her horses). Do you know anything about this world of elite equine training?

I suggest that you reread her well written posts and do some thinking. The main point is that it matters not what you think, or what you or I understand. It matters that something that is safe and approved by our vets/organic standards/love of our animals actually helps them. Actually works to give them a happier healthier life. Actually reduces pain and suffering.

I find it preposterous and rather mean of you to write such knee jerk reactionary posts about something that you know nothing about. Especially to someone who does. Someone we are lucky to get to spend her time sharing a bit of her knowledge with us.

[SidDithers]

385. Ridiculous...

A 30C homeopathic dilution doesn't contain any of the ingredient that it claims to contain.

How can arnica tablets, that don't have any arnica in them, do what they claim to do?

Answer me that riddle,

Sid

[Tumbulu]

391. If you think posting ridiculous comments

will convince anyone of anything, please forget about it.

You are displaying the precise symptom of fundamentalism I was describing above.

One who will not look at evidence simply because they cannot understand the mechanisms of action.

Scientists figure out the mechanisms of actions, we observe, measure, describe, test, hypothesize, test some more - as infinitum UNTIL WE FIGURE IT OUT!

We DO NOT say something cannot exist because we cannot understand how it can exist.

That is fundamentalism, and not science.

Thank goodness vets don't waste their time on silly arguments like yours. Thank goodness we get help from every avenue.

[Humanist_Activist]

393. I asked that homeopathy be tested clinically, you labeled that ridiculous....

and now you are saying that we display "fundamentalism"? Oh please, and again, tell me HOW homeopathy works, I just want one person to tell me this, just fucking once.

[Tumbulu]

419. Yes, you are clearly a fundamentalist

and I'm done with these conversations.

[SidDithers]

394. Water doesn't have memory...

Crystals won't heal, and chemtrails aren't real.

Deal with it.

Sid

[Tumbulu]

418. Deal with the fact that your provincial

views are so limiting and that this preoccupation with understanding a mechanism of action prior to observing actions and reactions is not part of the scientific method.

[Humanist_Activist]

402. I have a question, you have a million gallon tank of water, at homeopathic dilutions...

you have less than ONE molecule of Arnica, how can Arnica still be in it.

[Tumbulu]

417. Who cares, if it helps, SO WHAT? nt

[Humanist_Activist]

420. You have yet to prove it works. n/t

[Tumbulu]

359. See, here you are

You WILL NOT LOOK AT EVIDENCE only at what you understand can possibly be true.

Please open your mind up, it is not good to keep it all shut up in the jail of our current understandings of the mechanisms of nature.

[NoOneMan]

29. Cost and Outcomes really should be considered here

More and more evidence shows the power of placebos vs pharmaceuticals and even surgical procedures (see A Controlled Trial of Arthroscopic Surgery for Osteoarthritis of the Knee). In my opinion, if pseudo science can objectively save public health care dollars and produce equal health care outcomes by invoking the placebo effect, then it is a viable option to explore in some limited scenarios (of which, I wouldn't consider cancer diagnoses to be of)

[SidDithers]

35. Placebo should never be part of a patient treatment plan...

For a placebo to "work", the patient must be "tricked" into believing they're getting medicine that they're really not getting, and that goes against every idea of a patient being informed about their condition and treatment.

Sid

[NoOneMan]

37. Many pharmaceuticals and even some surgeries work no better than placebos

The only difference currently that makes conventional medicine "ethical" is that the doctors are also tricked into thinking their methods actually work (and mind you, in some European countries it is considered ethical to prescribed placebos and actually done in practice per recent documentary aired on CBC). Of course, there is a massive hit to the pocketbook of patients, as well as health risks, to consume non inert but equally ineffective medications to obtain such an "ethical" classification.

If doctors are so foolish to be tricked into thinking their risky medications are the best of all worlds, it should not be a challenge to trick them into prescribing placebos as well.

But in any case, thats the value of natural paths. They already think their placebos work

[eqfan592]

216. Evidence? nt

[NoOneMan]

226. Watch this

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/The+Nature+of+Things/Previews/ID/2411010453/

This is where I first heard of the knee surgery study I posted a link to that showed the surgery was no more effective than placebo

[eqfan592]

230. Sorry, can't watch a video right now. got a link to the study/studies that support your assertion?nt

[NoOneMan]

238. Yes

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12110735?dopt=Abstract

Just one example regarding surgery. Then watch the Science of Things when you get a chance. Plenty of studies are mentioned and doctors interviewed.

[FarCenter]

51. I've been told that patients who insisted on getting a shot were given saline solution

This was some time ago. The concentration of salt was such that the shot would "sting" and the patient would be satisfied.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

76. Are you sure about that?

I suspect that, if administered correctly, even an honestly-presented placebo might well have medical values.

I'd be very interested to see a study into pain relief, say, where half the patients are left untreated while the other half are given a lecture on how effective the placebo effect is, and then presented (knowingly) with a sugar pill or given a salt-water injection. I would not be at all surprised if the second group reported measurably better results.

[eqfan592]

215. From a recent podcast I heard on the subject, involving a doctor...

...it is generally thought to be medically unethical to give a patient a treatment, knowing full well that the treatment will have no real effect, yet telling the patient otherwise, even if it is done in the hope of generating a placebo effect.

[NoOneMan]

239. "knowing full well that the treatment will have no real effect"

Well then, that is the difference. We have evidence that giving people sugar pills is as effective as a plethora of approved drugs for certain conditions.

And the reality is that many doctors are not 100% sure (know full well) that prescribing a specific medicine to an individual will have the absolute desired effect. Every body is different, as is every specific incidence of a disease. That is why patients go back to doctors and adjust their dosages or medications for many ailments.

[zappaman]

34. I have a bigfoot "scarecrow" in my back yard.

And I've never had a Bigfoot problem.
I will be selling these online soon.
So get your wallet ready.

[Rex]

41. Sorry to disappoint you, but I've been killing and selling bigfoot pelts.

All over the country. So while you think it is your 'scarecrow', in reality I've almost killed them into extinction for profit (sorry, got to make a living). I'm going after the Yeti next, I hear their pelt sells well in The Orient.

[hueymahl]

79. I have trained my pugs to keep away elephants

And I can train yours too. 100% guaranteed effectiveness. We have not seen an elephant in the five years since we have had the dogs.

[zappaman]

84. Just pugs?

I have a black lab and if you can train her, I will give you loads of money!

[Vattel]

186. lol, nice one.

[Rex]

42. The Woo is no worse than the drugs pedaled on TV that result in a class action lawsuit.

From hundreds if not thousands dying for lack of quality control. Sometimes they were not tested long enough or not regulated or someone turns the other way while they patent and sell a dangerous drug.

When I hear a commercial tell me this 'side effects of this medicine may cause DEATH' er no thanks...woo or not. When the FUCK did that become a 'side effect'?

[WinkyDink]

45. Yes! Stop naturopaths from giving out Thalidomide, Lariam, Oxycontin, Vicodin, .....

[Pretzel_Warrior]

48. crazy canucks!

[pnwmom]

50. Your concern is duly noted. And several decades out-dated.

Bastyr University was founded in 1978 specifically to bring evidence-based research to the field of naturopathic medicine. Its doctors conduct research along with doctors at institutions such as the University of Washington and the nationally-acclaimed Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center.

This is not to say that each and every practitioner across the country is at this same level. But neither is every M.D. at the level of doctors at U.W. And not every practice of every naturopath is scientifically justified. . .or every technique of modern medicine, many of which have turned out to be unfounded when subject to scientific scrutiny.

http://www.bastyr.edu/about/about-our-university/history-heritage#Founding-of-Bastyr

Bastyr University has played a bigger role within medicine than any other non-allopathic institution, bringing scientific legitimacy to natural medicine.
- James Wharton, PhD, professor of medical history and ethics, University of Washington School of Medicine

Bastyr University was founded in 1978 during a difficult political climate for natural medicine. National College of Naturopathic Medicine (NCNM) had closed its Seattle branch, and Washington state legislators were threatening to eliminate naturopathic licensing since no new graduates were applying for licensure.
-
This challenge was met by three NCNM graduates, Drs. Les Griffith, William A. Mitchell, Jr. and Joseph E. Pizzorno, Jr. These naturopathic physicians saw an opportunity to create a new naturopathic school in Seattle that would not only protect licensure in Washington, but also create a resurgence for the naturopathic field by building the school on a science-based foundation.

SNIP

Dr. Pizzorno summarized Bastyr's achievements: "We have demonstrated that science-based natural medicine is achievable and successful in helping people. By doing it right, Bastyr has been a catalyst for the resurgence of public interest in natural medicine. So many of our graduates are actively treating people, writing good books and lecturing. We have made the world realize that natural medicine offers great value."

http://www.bastyr.edu/news/general-news-home-page/2013/12/integrative-oncology-study-draws-attention-promising-results

"Our patients are doing better than national averages," says Dr. Standish, a professor at Bastyr University and the University of Washington. "We don't know why. Maybe they would have done better, or maybe there's something about our treatment."

Since opening in 2009, BIORC has enrolled 521 patients in a prospective outcomes study, treating breast, lung, colon, pancreatic, brain and skin cancers. For eight patients with stage 4 colon cancer, BIORC reported an 80 percent survival rate after three years, compared with 15 percent from a group at Seattle Cancer Care Alliance.

Of 12 BIORC patients with stage 4 lung cancer, 64 percent were alive after three years, compared with 15 percent from Seattle Cancer Care and 3 percent from a national data group. Limitations in most data sets make exact comparisons difficult, Dr. Standish says. But the findings allow doctors to make immediate changes to improve patient care.
"These people have active tumor cells that are dividing rapidly," she says. "We're trying to figure out how to halt that disease progression without hurting the patient."

_____________________________________________

Here is an example of a faculty member. She served as a member of the Board of Trustees at Harborview Medical Center, Seattle’s pre-eminent trauma center. Many other faculty members have joint appointments or have conducted research alongside M.D.'s at other highly regarded institutions.

http://www.bastyr.edu/people/faculty-researcher/jane-guiltinan-nd

[TM99]

53. Yes, thank you!

Baystr was the model for National in Portland, University of Bridgeport's program, and the SWNMC in Tempe, AZ.

A licensed NMD in states like these that train, intern, license, and regulate the practice are completely different than a self-proclaimed naturopath who got his diploma from Clayton College of Natural Healing before it went out of business.

[Rex]

54. But it is 'woo' and you should be scared!

Not going to pull a Pavlov's dog? I use to, until I realized it was just another form of FUD being pushed here on DU. So much FUD here all over GD...can we get a cleanup in isle 5 please?

[zappaman]

88. I'll bite...

What is FUD?

[MattBaggins]

148. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt

The Woosters use it to scare people off from real Science to push their snake oil crap.

Think of that Kevin Treadeu fraud and his need to peddle "things THEY don't want you know about" bullshit.

[zappaman]

170. Ahhhhhh thanks for the info! n/t

[Rex]

297. What he said.

FUD all over the place in this thread!

Green tea causes liver spots!

[Rex]

298. Yep, tried and true method for selling snake oil!

If you don't buy one now, all your neighbors will and will be super strong and arrow proof! You don't want to be left out! What if there is an attack on the fort!

Just $1 a bottle, step right up!

[SidDithers]

55. Bastyr offers more than a dozen courses in Homeopathy...

http://www.bastyr.edu/sites/default/files/images/pdfs/course-catalog/2013-14-catalog/course-descriptions-13-14.pdf

Starting on page 115.

Any "school" offering courses in Homeopathy, especially at $31K per year tuition, left the realm of science-based medicine a long time ago.



If it walk like a duck, and swims like a duck, it's a quack.

Sid

[pnwmom]

61. You probably don't believe in M.D. allergists, either,

who inject small amounts of allergens in their patients to stop allergic reactions. AND, increasingly, give tiny amounts of allergens by mouth.

[SidDithers]

66. Which is almost, but not quite, completely different from Homeopathy...

Please, tell us how a Naturopathy can endorse Homeopathy, and still be considered valid.

Proceed.

Sid

[pnwmom]

75. No, thanks. Once you make up your mind on something,

evidence is irrelevant.

As you proved in this thread when you once again disputed the Harvard paper about FDA approved drugs, because it was approvingly cited by a source you distain.

So I will say only this: surgeons continue to do types of back surgery on patients that have been shown not to be effective, and to put tubes in kids' ears even after that was shown ineffective -- and yet you don't use that as an excuse to throw out all of modern medicine.

Naturopathy is not equivalent to homeopathy. That is just one tool some naturopathic doctors use.

[MattBaggins]

149. You have no evidence... none

[pnwmom]

156. There are conflicting studies, as there are for many medical treatments.

But naturopaths are not homeopaths. Only some use homeopathic remedies and that is only part of what they do.

[cleanhippie]

161. In EVERY thread that EVER comes up on this topic, you ALWAYS claim the same thing.

Yet have never ONCE provided a SINGLE shred of empirical evidence to support your claims. Instead you accuse others of having a closed mind.


Just provide the evidence. Can you?

[pnwmom]

163. I did, repeatedly, right in this thread.

For example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4186029

And Bastyr itself acknowledged that there are conflicting studies on the efficacy of homeopathy . . . just as there are in other areas of medicine -- for example, prescribing SSRI's for lower levels of depression has not been proven in research to help, yet M.D.'s continue to prescribe it.

http://www.bastyrcenter.org/content/view/1004/

[cleanhippie]

164. That appears to be an in-progress study.

It certainly doesn't provide any empirical evidence to support the claims you've made regarding the efficacy of naturopathy or homeopathy.

Have any that does?

Im happy to look at more if you have it.

[pnwmom]

171. I don't know what would be acceptable to you,

so why not go to Bastyr.edu yourself and read about their research? The reason the NIH is investing in that current study is because they have been conducting research since the 1980's, including other studies funded by the N.I.H.

The NIH awards grants on a competitive basis, after considering the credentials of the investigator, his or her past work, and his proposed new work. They're not passing out NIH money to quacks.

[cleanhippie]

278. That is one study for one specific reason.

Can you provide and completed studies that show naturopathic remedies to be effective in treating illness or disease?

I can't find any and you won't provide any, so how can I accept your claim that these remedies actually work?

[pnwmom]

286. Here is an example of a faculty member with several completed studies

since 1994. She is both a naturopathic physician who teaches at Bastyr and a faculty member in neuroscience at U.W. Many of the faculty at Bastyr have joint appointments with major institutions and have academic credentials in both naturopathy and traditional fields.

http://www.bastyr.edu/people/alumni-faculty-researcher/leanna-j-standish-phd-nd-lac-fabno

Dr. Standish is currently a research professor for the School of Naturopathic Medicine at Bastyr, a clinical professor for the School of Public Health at the University of Washington, and affiliate research professor in the University of Washington's School of Medicine's radiology department.

Dr. Standish is also the medical director of the Bastyr Integrative Oncology Research Center (BIORC) and a clinical research professor at the Bastyr University Research Institute. She has served as principal investigator on several National Institutes of Health (NIH) research grants since 1994.

Dr. Standish is a neuroscientist and a naturopathic physician who is board certified in naturopathic oncology. Currently her research is focused on the Asian medicinal mushroom Trametes versicolor in the treatment of breast and prostate cancer; functional brain imaging in the treatment of brain cancer; and the development of integrative oncology outcomes studies. New projects using IV Resveratrol and IV Curcumin to treat cancer are being developed.

[cleanhippie]

290. Great. Where are the actual studies with the results?

And did those studies pass peer-review?

[pnwmom]

296. The NIH solicits peer reviews before they offer grants.

You can look Dr. Standish up yourself if you're so curious. I know if I just cited a couple studies you'd find something to complain about, and I'm not going to search out every study this long-term professor has ever worked on.

[cleanhippie]

300. So you cannot produce a single peer-reviewed study showing the efficacy of a naturopathic remedy

That actually works?



This is the claim you made, right?

[pnwmom]

301. Here you go:

Dr. Standish, the prof with a joint appointment at Bastyr and the U.W. Department of Public Health, was one of the co-investigators.

http://www.bastyr.edu/research/studies/echinacea-purpurea-prevention-upper-respiratory-tract-infections-children

[cleanhippie]

303. While interesting, that's hardly conclusive.

Thanks for that one, good find.

So that's one, echinacea, that MAY be good a controlling secondary URI in children.

Surely you're not suggesting that this is indicative of all naturopathic remedies, right?

[pnwmom]

305. No, I'm not. I'm saying that you have to be careful about

choosing any doctor, whether an MD or a naturopath, and you should exercise caution in considering any proposed treatments.

Since the FDA initiated the fast-approval process some years ago, new drugs are being released on the market without all the testing they used to have. So in the first few years after a new drug comes out, everyone who takes it is a guinea pig.

So there's no guarantee that a conventional, FDA approved drug will be effective or without complications.

And there are bad naturopaths, I'm sure. But the ones I have known are very professional, including one who is the sister of my pediatrician.

[KT2000]

97. homeopathic products

are actually nano-sized particles of its constituents.
The process for making homeopathic solutions is to shake the bottle, more of a vibration because it is so fast - this is done on a machine. This is one of the processes for nano-sizing certain chemicals.

The contents of the homeopathic remedy have been measured and sometimes includes nano-sized particles from the glass it is in.

As you know, nano-sized particles are absorbed by the body more efficiently.

[eShirl]

110. molecules, you mean?

[MattBaggins]

150. You just posted complete rubbish

That is all nonsense.
Every word of it

[cleanhippie]

162. 100% hogwash.

[Humanist_Activist]

344. You failed High School Science classes, didn't you? n/t

[polichick]

71. Yeah, but they have the gov't seal of approval...

Don't you love these people who still believe that the FDA and CDC are all about patient protection, rather than industry profits?

(I know this is Canada - I'm tossing all the woo-scare threads together.)

[Captain Stern]

397. I don't think your analogy holds up.

For what the allergists are doing to be accurately compared to homeopathy, it should read:

"..who inject small amounts of nothing in their patients to stop allergic reactions. AND, increasingly give tiny amounts of nothing by mouth."

[MattBaggins]

147. Bastyr is a joke

They do not do ANY actual research.

None

[pnwmom]

157. The researchers at University of Washington, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center,

and Harborview Hospital, all mainstream medical investigators who have collaborated with Bastyr in research studies, prove you wrong.

So does the National Institutes of Health, which has funded Bastyr research. Here's a current example:

http://www.bastyr.edu/research/studies

Breast Cancer Integrative Oncology: Prospective Matched Controlled Outcomes Study

Status: Recruiting
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: Leanna J. Standish, ND, PhD, LAc, FABNO; M. Robyn Andersen, PhD
Funded by: Primary funding by: NIH/NCCAM Grant No. 1R01AT005873; Study Expansion funding by: Lotte & John Hecht Foundation
Project period: 8/1/10 – 12/31/18
PURPOSE: This NIH-NCCAM funded epidemiologic research is being conducted as an observational prospective case-control study of the use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) and Integrative Oncology (IO) and their effects on breast cancer patients in community settings.
Clinicaltrials.gov: NCT-1366248

[BuddhaGirl]

168. +1

The NIH is funding other studies at Bastyr as well, which a simple internet search would have revealed.

Some "joke" Bastyr is...open mouth, insert foot

[Faux pas]

57. 'Scarce health-care dollars should be spent on science-based medicine, not the collection of woo

being peddled by naturopathic "doctors".'

Yeah, science-based medicine is killing more people than any of the natural stuff has.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4129244

Guess you missed this one, hey sid?

[SidDithers]

58. No, I posted in the thread that anything from Collective Evolution is shite...

why should I believe anything from an anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation, smart-meters-are-gonna-kill-you, 9/11 truther, Boston bombing truther bullshit CT site?

Seriously. Are you trying to tell me that Collective Evolution is a credible source for science reporting?

Sid

[pnwmom]

62. Yes, conveniently ignoring the fact that the actual work came out of Harvard.

Using your logic, if "Collective Evolution" claimed that 2 +2 = 4, then you would have to claim that 2 + 2 could not equal 4, because everything "Collective Evolution" says is always wrong.

http://www.ethics.harvard.edu/lab/blog/312-risky-drugs

A forthcoming article for the special issue of the Journal of Law, Medicine and Ethics (JLME), edited by Marc Rodwin and supported by the Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics, presents evidence that about 90 percent of all new drugs approved by the FDA over the past 30 years are little or no more effective for patients than existing drugs.

All of them may be better than indirect measures or placebos, but most are no better for patients than previous drugs approved as better against these measures. The few superior drugs make important contributions to the growing medicine chest of effective drugs.

The bar for “safe” is equally low, and over the past 30 years, approved drugs have caused an epidemic of harmful side effects, even when properly prescribed. Every week, about 53,000 excess hospitalizations and about 2400 excess deaths occur in the United States among people taking properly prescribed drugs to be healthier. One in every five drugs approved ends up causing serious harm,1 while one in ten provide substantial benefit compared to existing, established drugs. This is the opposite of what people want or expect from the FDA.

Prescription drugs are the 4th leading cause of death. Deaths and hospitalizations from over-dosing, errors, or recreational drug use would increase this total. American patients also suffer from about 80 million mild side effects a year, such as aches and pains, digestive discomforts, sleepiness or mild dizziness.

SNIP

[Faux pas]

64. ...

bite me

It's 'people' like you that make me wanna turn in my du(h) card.

[SidDithers]

65. Nothing about Collective Evolution?...

Was kinda hoping you'd make an effort to defend that site.



Sid

[SidDithers]

60. From Orac last year: The problem with homeopathy, according to naturopaths

I’ve lost track of how many times over the last 7 years I’ve mentioned that naturopathy is not science-based. The evidence is overwhelming. All you have to do is to took at the wide variety of quackery that fits comfortably into naturopathic practice to realize that most of naturopathy is quackery. Traditional Chinese medicine? Check. Various “energy healing”? Check. “Detoxification” woo? Check. Homeopathy?

Check.

I brought up this point last year when I pointed out that you can’t have naturopathy without homeopathy. I based this assessment on the fact that not only his homeopathy a required part of the curriculum of naturopathic schools, but it’s also part of the naturopathic examination known as the Naturopathic Physicians Licensing Examinations (NPLEX), which is required for licensure in the states that have made the mistake of allowing licensure of naturopaths. Basically, naturopathy is, as I’ve characterized it before, a hodge-podge of unscientific treatment modalities based on vitalism and other prescientific notions of disease, sometimes sprinkled with the occasional bit of science-based recommendations, like trying to put a bit of powdered sugar on a rat turd. Basically, naturopaths “pick one from column A and one from column B” when it comes to pseudoscience, mixing and matching treatments including traditional Chinese medicine, homeopathy, herbalism, Ayurvedic medicine, applied kinesiology, anthroposophical medicine, reflexology, craniosacral therapy, Bowen Technique, and pretty much any other form of unscientific or prescientific medicine that you can imagine. Meanwhile, the leadership of naturopathy in the U.S. tries to represent naturopathy as scientific, with hilarious results.

Yes, the very leadership of naturopathy in the U.S. not only defends homeopathy, but now, again on the official blog of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians (AANP), it’s lamenting that homeopathy is “dead” in a post entitled, appropriate enough, Why is Homeopathy Dead? To add to the naturopathic cred of this article, it’s written by Shiva Barton, ND, LAc, who is the 2011 AANP Physician of the Year and apparently a big fan of homeopathy. Barton is very, very unhappy at how homeopathy is taught and used by most naturopaths. Now, normally you might think this is a good thing. Maybe naturopaths are actually figuring out that homeopathy, which is based on prescientific vitalism and sympathetic magic and, as a result, postulates that “like cures like” and that diluting (and succussing) a remedy to the point where not even a single molecule is likely to remain unless it’s a contaminant, is one of the most blatant forms of quackery there is.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/06/07/the-problem-with-homeopathy-according-to-naturopaths/


Gorski nailed it again.

Sid

[polichick]

67. God-forbid people stop shoveling cash to big pharma!!

[SidDithers]

68. Sure. Shovel it to the muti-billion dollar, unregulated supplement industry instead!...nt

Sid

[polichick]

69. No thanks. I buy my herbs direct from the growers.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

74. Nice, useless, flame-bait thread. Typical of your product. n/t

[polichick]

77. Maybe he's a big pharma rep.

[SidDithers]

78. ...

Sid

[polichick]

82. You sure are threatened by alternative health choices.

[SidDithers]

85. No, not at all...

But I don't want the weak-minded fools who practice these alt-med scams dipping into an already too shallow pool of health-care dollars.

If you want to throw away your own money on woo and faith-based medicine, be my guest. But I'll fight and ridicule every attempt by proponents of non science based medicine to get their greedy hands onto public funds.

Sid

[CanSocDem]

105. So it's the 'competition' you don't like.

"....an already too shallow pool of health-care dollars."


"....get their greedy hands onto public funds."

To a stalwart free-market advocate, it's always about the money.

Sad

.

[SidDithers]

109. It's absolutely about competition for public funds...

Every dollar directed toward non science-based medicines is a dollar that is diverted from obstetrics, or urgent care, or diagnostic imaging or any other real medical procedure with actual, proven outcomes.

You may feel that wasting health care resources on magical fairies is good public policy. I don't.

Sid

[CanSocDem]

115. You don't 'compete' for public funds...

...they are provided to serve the public interest. If "public health" is the objective then of course you are going to put money where there is evidence of public support.

What you are engaged in has nothing to do with public health. To you and the medical industry it's all about the money. Your usual heckling is just a propaganda war. Pretending that ModernMedicineInc. is all about SCIENCE is sophomoric especially in light of the billion dollar pharmaceutical industry, that even with blinders like yours, you can see how completely overboard the marketing of illness has become.

"Science" can't even explain the power of the placebo. Oh yeh....cause that would put them out of business.


.

[SidDithers]

116. Directions in public health are not determined by popular vote...

Public health funds shouldn't go where there is "evidence of public support", they should go where there is evidence of efficacy.

Which should rule out non science-based medicine.

Sid

[CanSocDem]

130. Public funds go where, now...???

Doctors salaries, fancy furniture, the latest technology, self-serving research and seasonal sales events that are a mark of every successful business.

The differences between the USA and Canada are profound. And since I believe that it is ALL placebo, the differences between you and I are equally profound.

.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

89. Apparently the earlier attempt to start a flame war was met with little interest. n/t

[loudsue]

80. Just another flame-bait thread, brought to you by the same folks

that always come here trashing stuff they know NOTHING about. Either that, or they DO know, and they just worship the pharmaceutical industry/medical industry, and they benefit somehow from that worship.

I wish these threads would be outlawed here, because they inform NOBODY.

[MattBaggins]

151. Third possibilty

We do know about Woo and recognize it for the bullshit it is,

[Matariki]

249. +1

[sagat]

81. Fuck woo.

[SidDithers]

83. +1...

Short, sweet, and to the point.



Sid

[greytdemocrat]

211. Yep.

+1

[idwiyo]

102. +1

[dionysus]

92. vaht? vas you shaying shumthing, about woo peddling fools, to meee?

vaht?

[SidDithers]

99. Heheh...

Sid

[PasadenaTrudy]

103. When I get really sick

I don't fuck around. I see my MD!

[PasadenaTrudy]

104. A friend of mine

recently had a UTI. He took cranberry extract and other herbs. Well, it got worse and he ended up in bad shape. Septic, and put on antibiotics. He's fine now, but boy did it scare him. I hope he learned something though this....

[SidDithers]

113. UTIs can be scary...

my wife had one a few years ago, that antibiotics cleared right up. Her doc told her that left untreated, an UTI could lead to kidney infection, which can be very, very bad.



Sid

[BuddhaGirl]

114. Gee, when I've had UTI's

I take cranberry extract and they go away. To each his own.

[PasadenaTrudy]

119. I'm guessing

you aren't close to 80 and frail like my friend, either.

[BuddhaGirl]

154. You didn't mention that, did you?

Sorry for your friend.

Again, to each his own.

[Humanist_Activist]

121. "To each his own." See, this is why ancedotal evidence is useless...

and why all possible options should be both explored, but also tested for veracity. This is why clinical trials are so important, to not only figure out whether the treatment actually works, but also, when we do see it works, to figure out how it works, so it can be repeated in others.

You say cranberry juice worked in your case, but honestly, you can't really say that, it may have helped, it may have not, who knows, but this single data point can't be extrapolated to others without scientific testing being done first. After all, its just as likely that you have a healthy enough immune system that fought off the infection on its own, and the cranberry juice wasn't necessary, how are you to know?

[BuddhaGirl]

155. I didn't say cranberry juice

I took cranberry extract capsules for the last three UTI's I've had over the years, and the cranberry took care of it. It's good enough for me but I understand others think differently.

Cranberry extract dosing is even listed on the Mayo Clinic website for UTI's.

YMMV.

[Humanist_Activist]

172. "and the cranberry took care of it." You have no evidence for this.

That is the issue.

[BuddhaGirl]

173. My evidence is that my UTI's went away

YMMV

But feel free to keep hammering on the issue - the OP was just more of the usual shit, pitting the allopathic vs alternative/naturopathic factions. The thread degraded in the usual way.

Cheers!

[Humanist_Activist]

174. "YMMV" Again, thinking anecdotes equals data. n/t

[BuddhaGirl]

176. To each his own

n/t

[Ms. Toad]

222. It actually does.

Data takes a variety of forms, including anecdotes.

Whenever research includes patient reports of symptoms, as opposed to things being objectively measurable (radiology or labwork, forexample), the data is little more than a collection of anecdotes.

More anecdotes, gathered formally in a systematic fashion (as is done in research which includes patients' subjective reports of their symptoms), make the data more reliable. But the assessment of whether the data is reliable or not doesn't change the fact that it is data.

[Humanist_Activist]

232. OK, sorry, perhaps I should say that one data point isn't enough to draw conclusions from...

so its an unproven assertion, at best.

[Ms. Toad]

234. On that we agree. n/t

[REP]

224. You didn't have an infection, then

Did you do a dipstick test at least, or did you just have burning when you micturated? If the latter, you probably had an irritated urethra.

What cranberry does is keep bacteria from sticking to the lining of the bladder. Once an infection is established, it does not control the infection in any way.

[Vashta Nerada]

228. You mean we're not supposed to go on Web MD and self-diagnose?

Awwww.

I want to go on Wed MD, punch in my symptoms, and claim I was "cured" by some natural remedy from a disease I didn't have.

[REP]

268. I do a little bit of self-diagnosis...

I've been having kidney infections for over 30 years, so I'm pretty familiar with the symptoms, so I keep UA dipsticks on hand -the same kind they use at my doctor's office (kidney infections can feel a lot like stones, and I pass a lot of those, too). Anyway, if I dip positive, I call my doctor's office so her lab can do a UA and culture so I can be put on the right antibiotic.

What I don't do is rely on some OTC crap and hope I don't die. Lower tract infections (in the bladder) aren't nearly as serious as kidney infections, but they can spread to the kidneys if left untreated. Playing home doc with a suspected UTI is dumb.

[PasadenaTrudy]

279. Thank you! n/t

[BuddhaGirl]

288. Well, good for you!

Good on you for taking care of yourself as you see fit

To each his own.

[Scout]

295. bladder infection, 4 weeks of antibiotics did not clear it up

... until i started drinking all the cranberry juice i could stand, then it went away.

i know, i know, the antibiotics were JUST ABOUT TO WORK ANYWAY, right before i started the cranberry juice, right??

and yes, it was an actual infection, diagnosed by my gyno, who prescribed the erythromicin.

[REP]

302. Did they do a culture?

I'm not giving you shit - I'm pissed off at too many doctors in general* not doing a UA and culture when a patient presents with UTI symptoms and giving them the wrong treatment. That's a weird antibiotic to give for a UTI; I'm allergic to penicillin myself but I've never been put on erythro for a UTI; it's more suitable for URIs (not my opinion - I've asked why it hasn't been prescribed since it's one of the few antibiotics I'm not allergic to). Did your doctor do a follow-up test to make sure your infection was cleared? Again, I'm not trying to flip you shit; I know how much they fucking hurt and I don't want you to be walking around with a festering infection.

* an anecdote: most bladder infections are caused by coliform bacteria. My mother kept getting antibiotics from her doctor for bladder infections even though SHE NO LONGER HAS A COLON! I insisted she have a UA and culture done instead of eating Bactrim like candy the last time she was sure she had an infection, and guess what? She didn't have an infection. She has Interstitial Cystitis, which is super painful but is not treated with antibiotics. If her doctor had done the routine tests, she could have been treated for her real problem much much sooner.

[Scout]

304. i honestly do not remember if they did a culture

it was 25-30 years ago so i'm not suffering now.

i just remember being aggravated that the erythro would seem to clear it up, then it would come right back when i stopped taking it. i did always take the full course prescribed. maybe the cranberry juice was coincidental, but i do remember SOMETHING finally did the trick. i had not previously enjoyed drinking cranberry juice, so i didn't ... but on the advice of a girlfriend i started drinking it every day, and infection (or whatever) cleared up.

i have since learned to like the juice, and while i don't drink it daily, even weekly necessarily, i do drink it at home or when eating breakfast out sometimes.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

125. ... lol ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018535764

[Lydia Leftcoast]

152. My brother is an MD board-certified in Occupational Medicine

He has found (through reading and experience) that a lot of his chronic pain patients, who have been to every neurologist and orthopedist in town, don't have neurological or orthopedic problems at all, but problems with their muscle balance, skeletal type, psychological environment, or nutritional balance.

Patients who have been recommended for surgery that "may work" come to him for a second opinion, and he finds that their chronic back pain can be solved by adjusting their working environment, physical therapy treatments, taking Pilates and/or yoga or wearing different shoes. The patient is saved the physical and mental stress of surgery, and the cost is lower.

When he presents at medical conferences, many of the doctors are like, "But that's not what we learned in medical school."

He finds that nurses are much more pragmatic about patient treatment. If it works, they're willing to try it.

There are a lot of naturopaths in Oregon. They do have to learn all the science that regular MDs learn, but they also learn more about nutrition and exercise than MDs do.

[Cleita]

179. It seems like self-regulation doesn't work in any industry or profession.

I can't believe people even believe it's possible. Look at what a mess the AMA has made out of our health care situation.

[panader0]

182. So what about marijuana? A natural medicine?

[SidDithers]

197. You know what they call natural medicines...

whose efficacy is confirmed by scientific testing?

Medicine.

Sid

[NoOneMan]

240. Ok. So pot is therefore medicine by tautology that grows naturally. Sounds like natural medicine

[Grateful for Hope]

190. This thread is very interesting and informative

Speaking for myself, I am allergic to many antibiotics (I think it stems from over-use by my doctor and parents during my childhood). My allergic reactions have made me very fearful of trying anything new. As a result, I don't take antibiotics for anything anymore.

I tend to have chronic bronchitis, and it can become pretty severe where my breathing is impaired. So, when I had an occurrence about two years ago, I researched herbs and their associated healing qualities, and came upon some standard herbs that are used in cooking (most prominently, Indian cooking) that are linked to lessening the symptoms of bronchitis.

I tried using a particular herb as instructed in a few of the articles I read for this flare up, and I have to say that it did make me feel better. It did take a bit longer than an antibiotic probably would have, but it did work. Up until then, I had bouts that would last six weeks or more. This particular bout ended in a week and 1/2.

As I see it, there are pros and cons on both sides of this argument. However, I am seeing no one in this thread suggest that there is no use for main stream medicine, while I am seeing many indicate that anything outside of main stream is woo.

I suggest that this is not a black-and-white issue. There are good reasons for using both modalities.

[Humanist_Activist]

194. Actually, I'm battling ignorance in general, for example, you found herbs...

I'm surprised you didn't identify them, that relieve symptoms(but don't cure the underlying condition), you then compared them to antibiotics, which DON'T relieve symptoms and aren't designed too, giving a false impression that the herbs are superior. I find this fascinating and typical.

As far as your allergy I hope your doctor's can help you work around them and I hope your symptoms are relieved to the point of being tolerable.

[Grateful for Hope]

198. Seems to me you are nit-picking

First: Antibiotics relieve symptoms simply because they attack the microbes responsible for a particular attack. You didn't know this? Huh!

Second: I never said the herbs were superior - I just didn't elaborate. What I should have said is that, left untreated (which I did for several years), it would take as long as six weeks to heal. I apologize that I was not clear.

Still this post of yours is exactly what I was referring to in my post. For you, it IS a black and white issue.

Oh, and I would mention the herb, but I would then be accused of dispensing medical advice. There are enough hints in my first post.

[Humanist_Activist]

202. Antibiotics aren't designed to relieve symptoms, sorry if I was unclear...

the relief of symptoms is a side affect, and also, just a note, is NOT indicative that the underlying infection has been completely removed. That's why its important to take your antibiotics as your doctor prescribes, part of the problem with the rise of antibiotic resistant bacteria is people stopping their antibiotic regimen because they feel better.

[Grateful for Hope]

212. Sounds like you are a doctor.

I understand what you are saying, and thank you for the info. I also know that what you are saying about antibiotic regimen is good advice.

We need to agree to disagree - but I do honor what you have to say.

[Humanist_Activist]

217. I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one, more like a concerned citizen...

who, having seen family and friends become victims of snake oil salesman, have a very low view of such people.

[Grateful for Hope]

227. OK

I am sorry you have had such awful experiences.

[Dorian Gray]

274. Not all bronchitis

is caused by a bacterial infection. Often you need inhalers or a nebulizing treatment to open up your air passages.

I get bronchitis yearly. (I'm asthmatic) It sucks. But I've learned that antibiotics aren't usually the first course of action.

[REP]

310. Black coffee is a good bronchodilator

It's no substitute for a rescue inhaler of course, but for mild asthma and bronchitis, it's a useful thing since it's so easy to come by anywhere.

[Matariki]

193. Meh. My Naturopath IS a Medical Doctor

And she has been a WAY better doctor than any I've seen before, including much more thorough exams and curing the migraines that I'd been having for years. The best my previous non-naturopathic Doctor could do was proscribe pills that had wretched side effects and had I kept taking them would have just caused worse health problems down the line.

Tossing about the term 'woo' is intellectually lazy.

[Vashta Nerada]

223. Really now?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1018&pid=535941

Naturapath "doctors" are trained in homeopathy and acupuncture and heal on a physical and spiritual level.

Sounds like a woo peddler to me.

[Matariki]

248. You are laughably uninformed

My Naturopath went to medical school and is a general practitioner. She ALSO has a degree in Naturopathy.

Seriously, wtf is with your attitude?

That's your reaction to what I wrote about my DOCTOR healing my migraines and doing thorough annual exams? You think that's 'woo'?

It's like you and your ilk are broken records with your knee jerk reaction to certain words. You think your attitude is 'scientific'? I laugh.

[Vashta Nerada]

250. Uninformed?

That info is straight from the American Association of Naturopathic Doctors website.

Now what?

[Matariki]

252. Yes you are.

You are uniformed about my doctor. Which is what my post was about and what you were responding to.

I don't click on useless links that that point to people's own DU posts. I can't even tell what you are trying to say.

on edit: having said that, I clicked on your link and still don't see your point. You think what you quoted is 'woo'? I think even main stream medicine acknowledges a connection between the mind and body and it's impact on health.


"A bit of science distances us from God. A lot brings us closer." ~ Louis Pasteur

[Vashta Nerada]

253. You cannot have Naturopathy without homeopathy.

Which is the title of this blog post, written by a surgeon and a scientist.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/01/28/you-cant-have-naturopathy-without-homeop/

Q. Do all naturopathic physicians use homeopathy?

A. All naturopathic physicians are trained in the use of homeopathy, but not every naturopathic physician will use it as part of their treatment.

Let’s repeat that: All naturopathic physicians are trained in the use of homeopathy. All of them.

Have fun with your woo.

[pnwmom]

256. You left out this part: "but not every naturopathic physician will use it

as part of their treatment."

And the scientific research on homeopathy shows conflicting results, like much of modern medicine. But that doesn't stop M.D.'s from frequently prescribing medicines (like SSRI's for people with low level depression) and procedures (back surgery for lower back pain) that have not been scientifically shown to work.

[Vashta Nerada]

264. "that have not been scientifically shown to work"

Are you freaking kidding me?



All of that has been scientifically shown to work! There's nothing scientific about homeopathy.

I didn't leave anything out. What you're missing is that ALL naturopath "doctors" are trained in homeopathy. That's the part you ignored.

[pnwmom]

266. Spinal fusion for chronic lower back pain has not been proven effective,

and neither have SSRI's for mild and moderate depression.


Research showing that spinal fusion is an ineffective treatment for chronic lower back pain:

http://mcaulifflaw.com/News/files/d64705b81166b5665f272e271a40b8dc-20.html

The article in Spine, authored by Dr. Trang H. Nguyen of the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, looked at 1,450 workers' compensation patients with chronic lower back pain and found that those who underwent the invasive fusion procedure had worse long-term outcomes compared to those whose treatment entailed only physical rehabilitation and exercise.

Trang and study co-author David C. Randolph outlined their preliminary findings during the annual meeting of the Ohio Self-Insurers Association last June.

Nguyen writes in the Spine article that only 26% of patients who underwent spinal fusion surgery returned to work within two years, compared to 67% of patients whose treatment involved only rehabilitation and exercise. Additionally, 85% of the surgical patients were still taking oral narcotics two years later, compared with 49% of the patients who did not have surgery.

Additionally, the article states that 27% of surgical patients needed to be operated on again, while 36% had complications from the surgery. What's more, permanent disability rates were 11% for fusion patients compared to 2% in the nonoperative control group, according to the study. Days away from work for those who had surgery was 1,140, compared to 316 in the control group.

The article concludes that fusions performed for disc degeneration, disc herniation or radiculopathy in a workers' compensation setting "is associated with significant increase in disability, opiate use, prolonged work loss and poor return-to-work status."
_____________________________________________________________

2. Other research indicates that SSRI’s are no more effective than placebos for cases of moderate and mild depression, yet doctors write millions of prescriptions for these conditions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/health/views/06depress.html?scp=2&sq=ssri&st=cse

Some widely prescribed drugs for depression provide relief in extreme cases but are no more effective than placebo pills for most patients, according to a new analysis released Tuesday.
The findings could help settle a longstanding debate about antidepressants. While the study does not imply that the drugs are worthless for anyone with moderate to serious depression — many such people do seem to benefit — it does provide one likely explanation for the sharp disagreement among experts about the drugs’ overall effectiveness.
Taken together, previous studies have painted a confusing picture. On one hand, industry-supported trials have generally found that the drugs sharply reduce symptoms. On the other, many studies that were not initially published, or were buried, showed no significant benefits compared with placebos.
The new report, appearing in The Journal of the American Medical Association, reviews data from previous trials on two types of drugs and finds that their effectiveness varies according to the severity of the depression being treated.

SNIP

-_______________________________________________


3. Ear tubes for children with repeated ear infections is another very popular medical procedure that may not work after all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/health/15brody.html?pagewanted=all

According to a new long-term study by Dr. Stenstrom and colleagues, when young children were randomly assigned to receive ear tubes or to be treated daily with antibiotics, those with ear tubes suffered greater damage to their eardrums and had, on average, poorer hearing 6 to 10 years after the tubes were removed.

Although the tube design has changed and daily antibiotics are no longer recommended, this controlled clinical trial calls into question whether the benefits of ear tubes outweigh the risks.

Ear tubes remain popular — with an estimated 700,000 insertions a year in the United States — despite subsequent well-planned studies that challenged many of the assumptions that long justified their use. Research directed by Dr. Jack L. Paradise, professor of pediatrics at Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh, and other independent studies found no lasting effects of lingering fluid in the middle ear in otherwise healthy children.

________________________________

4. And I'm sure you don't need any links to prove that many M.D's prescribe antibiotics to patients who don't need them and who, in fact, shouldn't be given them. This is part of why we're getting so many antibiotic resistant organisms.

[Vashta Nerada]

267. The first link

is from a law firm which specializes in worker's comp claims. Of course they're going to say spinal fusion surgery doesn't work. They make money representing those clients.

As for the second article, people are probably going to their MD to get medication for mild depression. MDs aren't experts in mental health. People should be going to psychiatrists for mental health diagnoses.

Your fourth assertion is wrong. Bacteria are getting resistant to drugs because of the overuse of antibacterial soaps and hand cleaners.

[pnwmom]

272. Bacteria are only getting resistant to ANTIBIOTICS because of the overuse of

soaps and handcleaners?



The first link is a law firm, yes, but they pointed to real research, and there's plenty more like that out there.

As for the second article, the point is that real M.D.'s are prescribing SSRI's for conditions that they haven't been proven to help.

Naturopaths aren't the only doctors who prescribe some treatments that haven't been proven effective through research. M.D.'s do this every day. That's why medicine is considered an art as well as a science.

[kentauros]

258. "Tossing about the term 'woo' is intellectually lazy."

Well, that's what most septics do. And yes, I did spell "septic" correctly

Septics toss about the word "woo" in an almost constant knee-jerk manner. It's an onomatopoeia word for a sound made by ghosts, another thing for which septics do not have a belief. In other words, "woo" is their go-to insult that has no meaning, despite regularly telling people in fights like this that "words have meaning."

Yes, words do have meaning, and thus my choice of "septic" in place of "skeptic/sceptic." Etymologically, it means "to rot" and I have come to the conclusion that's what's going on in their brains most of the time due to all of the negativity they bandy about pretty much nonstop

[Tumbulu]

368. and they are not only lazy, but very scared

and cling to their fundamentalism passionately.

Very sad, really.

[kentauros]

378. I've known for many years

that DU is simply not the place to discuss topics normally meant to expand one's mind or points of view. You either toe the line with the status quo, or get ridiculed. And then the bullied leave, though they don't stop talking about whatever subject didn't woo favor with the septics. And the place continues to rot.

[Tumbulu]

384. So sadly true

I came here to practice my writing skills. And have gotten braver thanks to the years and thousands of posts. I write a lot on facebook and finally now am writing on my website. Myself, when I get up the courage.

I do enjoy what you write, so thanks for staying around.

[kentauros]

423. And I have enjoyed what you've written, too.

Such as about your organic farming

Normally, I refrain from threads like these, except for a few (and usually ignored) posts. Glad you didn't ignore them

[Tumbulu]

424. Thanks

I have no idea why I bothered to post in this thread. To see these foolish people arguing with this experienced sport horse trainer just got me. They just have no idea....

[BlueToTheBone]

196. What do you think of osteopathy?

I'm on the side of not medicine, more chiropractic. I just had my first encounter with an osteopathic neurosurgeon and I have such grave reservations, I had them send my records to my primary care physician and said good-bye.

[Humanist_Activist]

208. Looks like yet another type of BS peddled on a false belief related to...

the debunked hypothesis of vitalism, similar to chiropractic practitioners.

[DesertFlower]

220. DO's

http://www.osteopathic.org/OSTEOPATHIC-HEALTH/ABOUT-DOS/WHAT-IS-A-DO/Pages/default.aspx

[Humanist_Activist]

225. So they are legitimate until you get to OMM or OMT...

whichever acronym you prefer, which is ineffective in everything but treating lower back pain.

[DesertFlower]

235. when i had spinal manipulation it was for

back pain. he was my primary doc for 19 years. that was a small part of his practice.

that being said. my mom came out to visit. she was in terrible pain. couldn't reach around to hook her bra or bend to put on her shoes. she had a few sessions with him and left pain free. she said "if i ever move here -- i want him as my doc". a few years later she did move here.

he always ran late because no one was rushed out. he explained everything and took extra time especially with seniors.

he also treated people who couldn't pay.

one time i had a reaction to an antibiotic. i called him at home and he changed it. how many docs do you know who give their home phone #? i was sad when he retired when he was almost 79.

[BlueToTheBone]

237. I went for my lower back

and their offering was fusing my spine (same treatment of 40 years ago that I refused) and that I was either too young or too old for them to operate on me anyway. I didn't see a doctor but I saw a PA and she was the one who decided any course of treatment. I had them send my info to my primary doc and I'll never be back there.

[DesertFlower]

213. an osteopath is a DO. seems the younger

ones don't do spinal manipulation anymore. my doc who retired a few years ago did great manipulations. many of my docs over the years have been DO's. my primary is a DO.

years ago my sister in law was visiting. i stopped at my doc for any allergy shot. when i came out she had an angry look on her face because he was a DO. she works in the medical profession. hubby and i always joked about her docs -- that they killed people. when my father in law was ill she had the doc she worked for treat him. took weeks before he realized it was FIL's heart. he had open heart surgery and died on the table. My MIL had blocked carotid arteries. my SIL got her the "best" doc to perform the surgery. the surgery was a success except 3 hours later MIL had a stroke and was paralized on her left side. she spent 9 miserable years in a nursing home.

[Liberal_in_LA]

257. kick

[sendero]

277. I dunno..

... sure sounds like a turf war to me.

I remember, not even that long ago. when people thought acupuncture was voodoo. Now, only the terminally ignorant are unaware of its efficacy.

IMHO, people should get to, within reason, decide what works for them. Western medicine is no great shakes, "science" based or not.

[Erose999]

287. This is the net result of the insurance industry acting as a wedge between people and medicine. It

empowers all the snake-oil salesmen, naturist kooks, etc.

I have friends who have been hornswaggled into this crap. Everybody has some sort of berry juice or herbal vitamins, or silver water they're selling, not realizing its a pyramid scheme.

Which is not to say that all who practice homeopathic medicine are kooks, but a lot of them who do are spreading disinformation and scams. The FDA should be all over this shit.

[muriel_volestrangler]

294. This is a Canadian story (nt)

[Erose999]

299. This kind of quackery is a problem here too, in case my post hadn't made it clear to you.

[X_Digger]

306. Damn, look at the woo in this thread. *shaking my head* n/t

[kentauros]

377. Shaking your head at people seeking affection? Whatever for?

to seek the affection or love of someone, usually a woman; court: He was reminded of his youth when he went wooing.

[mother earth]

326. Big Pharma is based on pseudo scientific study, it's a scam perpetuated & patently confirmed! HAH!

You know all those warnings on "medicine" it's because of actual case studied proof of the "warnings" aka unacceptable risk if profit were not a factor, while it is rushed to market, yet somehow this is more acceptable?

Why can't we just have a proven system where actual scientific study confirms any and all forms of health strategy? WTF? You woo-haters throw the babies out with the bath water, naturopathy is simply natural forms of health care, you got something against mother nature?

[Humanist_Activist]

334. I have a question, why the fuck should we trust the big alternative "medicine" industry?

Its a multibillion dollar industry of corporations selling, in many cases, literally sugar pills to people for a premium price, and that's acceptable?

Say what you will about big pharma, but at least they are minimally regulated, and the have to have results studied, and verified, independently. We can't say the same for the "alternative health" people, they are far less regulated.

Oh, and you know what they call alternative medicine that works, and can be clinically tested to work, just medicine.

Is there some vast conspiracy involving every doctor, biologist, clinic, hospital, and lab, worldwide, to suppress the "alternative medicine" industry?

If so, they suck at their job.

[mother earth]

386. Naturopathy is based on vitamin therapy, minerals and such, it is not homeopathy. And guess what,

even hospitals are providing Reiki these days. Energy medicine is another biggie that's growing in scope. There is a vast amount of tools to be thrown out if only traditional medicine is followed. In childbirth, doctors and nurses are always seeking out new and improved ways of birthing, midwives are on the scene if needed, doulas...research that, natural alternatives are on the uprise, my friend.

Alternative medicine is not woo, it is ALTERNATIVE, that's all. The more you understand about such things the more these new traditions are embraced for their value. This is called PROGRESS.

Even such practices as acupuncture are on the rise and being paid for by insurance companies, now you KNOW they don't like paying for services unless they are of practical, proven benefit, same with chiropractors. There's a world of scientific knowledge opening up to us, now why would we turn it away and shout "woo", that would be counterproductive.

SCIENCE evolves, why shouldn't we? Have you ever heard of physical therapy which utilizes the same meridian points as acupuncture? TENS therapy, EMS, or craniosacral therapy? If we don't engage in these new technologies which are sometimes based on what might be termed as "woo", how are to progress in the field of medicine? Especially sports medicine, those docs LOVE, LOVE alternatives, as well as traditional, and their patients do too!

http://enow.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniosacral_therapy

you know what they call alternative medicine that works, and can be clinically tested to work, just medicine

No, that's what you call it, because you are afraid you are wrong about "woo", ALTNERNATIVE medicine is advertised as such, holistic docs are highly sought after, you don't know what you are talking about, that much is clear. (Sid's OP is about Canadian practitioners, where they play by a different rulebook.)

[Humanist_Activist]

390. Reiki is a spiritual practice, akin to faith healing, and I would classify it as "mostly harmless"..

except for when its used instead of clinically testable methods of treating people, stuff that actually works, evidence based medicine.

Also, Science doesn't evolve, discoveries change, the method stays the same, because its the only one that works reliably, if something can have its effectiveness tested in a clinical setting, its mechanism of action be examined by people, and it actually works, it is now in the tool belt of evidence based medicine, regardless of where it initially came from. It may still be OTC and even have some horseshit label about being "alternative", doesn't mean it wasn't clinically tested, or that it works.

Also, your link on Craniosacral therapy, very interesting, even among practitioners, there is no agreement that anything is happening of any clinical significance, that belongs in the "unproven" category.

The issue I have with woo advocates is that it is, at best, unproven, yet people are so freaking afraid to have it proven or disproven I'm just assuming they are like the snake oil salesman of the past, in it to make a quick buck.

[mother earth]

407. No, HA, these things have benefits, maybe doesn't work for all people, just like medicines and

traditional modes. That's the beauty of alternatives, SO if it's of benefit, it's worthy of being in the mix. I'm not going to argue "horseshit" or what, you deem "worthy" of a physician using in the practice of medicine. However, I would advise leaving that to the professionals, they don't do voodoo, they do answer to the AMA and other entities, snake oil is more like the BS guy, Kevin Trudeau, and a snake oil salesman also has to answer to the laws in this country (which I believe he has). It's the very reason why all practicing physicians go through the scrutiny and credentialing processes they do. There are consequences for anything that is quackery.

I understand and agree that not every "alternative" is worthy or effective, but these things are strictly regulated esp. when a group of physicians are utilizing it in their practice. Do you really think they would risk their livelihoods and licensure to sell the public snake oil? They rely on their reputations, their skills and word of mouth. Haven't you ever rec'd a rating survey from your insurance company asking how you were treated by your physician? You do know complaints about health care treatment are taken seriously and do reflect poorly on the practitioner? A physician can lose their ability to act as a provider if they were to act as you are describing.

Please stop knee jerk reactions and reflect for a moment or two. I'm sure you can reach reasonable conclusions.

As for the physical therapy treatments I mentioned, again, pain can be a difficult thing to manage. These therapies are definitely of benefit for patients, or else why would the patients return for completion of their therapy sessions? These sessions are ordered via physician orders, a physician would discontinue and try something else. These are scientific and methodical processes, if you believe the things you have said, you have no understanding of these issues.

[Humanist_Activist]

400. Have those hospitals that embraced Reiki gotten rid of the oncology departments?

Its obvious that they no longer need to research cancer or administer chemotherapy anymore, right?

How many people are "cured" from cancer from Reiki, answer me this, please.

[mother earth]

408. Alternatives are used in conjunction with traditional modes. Don't be silly. No one is saying

Last edited Thu Dec 19, 2013, 08:09 PM - Edit history (1)

traditional modes of treating cancer are discontinued or should be. I'm glad you mention "research", it's the very reason why some alternatives are being discovered to be of great value, having said that, remember all of these tools are used in the arsenal of fighting disease and empowering the lives of physicians and their patients.

Every day, in every way, we are all discovering that there are things in this universe that can advance mankind and take health care to new levels. Science is proving that what was once considered "woo" is now part of mainstream health care and is of benefit.

I'm not going to say ANYONE is CURED with Reiki, I'm not very knowledgeable of Reiki, but from my limited understanding of it, it is of value under certain circumstances and one of the reason hospitals use it, is because it hastens recovery, sounds like a win to me.

None of us have all the answers, HA, not even physicians, but thankfully, the good ones try, and try like hell for patients who are very much in need of their services. Now what is bad or "woo" about that?

[mother earth]

387. Naturopathic practitioners in the US can be divided into three categories:

traditional naturopaths; naturopathic physicians; and other health care providers that provide naturopathic services. Naturopathic physicians employ the principles of naturopathy within the context of conventional medical practices. Naturopathy comprises many different treatment modalities such as nutritional and herbal medicine, lifestyle advice, counseling, flower essence, homeopathy and remedial massage.

Holistic physicians bill insurance companies for their services, they act as primary care providers & as stated above these alternatives are added to traditional medicine. Alternatives in this country are regulated, everything is, are you kidding? I also think you are confusing some more spa-like services that are popping up, as well, as alternative medicine, they are not. Alternative medicine is huge, growing & incredible. I know, I've actually used some of these services. Even the traditional physicians are now testing for levels of vitamins and deficiencies, something that was never done before. Inflammation is huge in the disease process. Is inflammation woo too?

I think you are confusing some new age practices with proven alternatives, is all. I will say it again, ALTERNATIVE medicine is growing in popularity, becoming vastly accepted and valued by "traditional" practitioners and even insurance companies are accepting their value & approving payment for these services.

You aren't going to win your "woo" pooh, not today. Now play nice, and accept that you have been schooled, just a little today.
It happens, even to the best haters, just once in a while humanity progresses. Even, Humanist Activists.

[Humanist_Activist]

392. How the fuck have I been schooled? I'm called the close minded one for asking that things be tested.

Hell, you people seem to think that even answering HOW these alternative therapies work is impossible, and that they are impossible to test as well. So that means its on faith that you believe these things work? I mean, if you want to run with that, go ahead, but don't claim to be open minded about it.

[mother earth]

410. I don't know who you are arguing with, I never said FAITH had ANYTHING to do with the methods Ive

discussed. Again, you are talking apples and oranges, I'm not talking about faith healing, I'm talking about alternatives that are now being used in conjunction with traditional medicine in this country that are of great value and benefit.

Testing? Wouldn't the results be the proof? If not, then the patient and their doctor are onto another avenue to find their solution.

"you people"? It's a war for the woo-fighters, it's so silly, and I've no patience for trashing what has been proven to work by the very results people are experiencing. Hey, go spend some time observing in a physical therapy dept., or ask these questions of a medical professional that you trust isn't full of "woo".

I'm not trying to sell you anything, I'm giving some pretty valid arguments and proof that our medical professionals in this country are finding value and results in utilizing alternatives. I'm no expert on every alternative therapy to explain exactly how they work or get the results they get. But, I'm not going to sit by and not speak up when people trash them as useless.

[Humanist_Activist]

413. Reiki is faith healing from what I read, so is most other BS "energy" healing shit. n/t

[mother earth]

415. Energy medicine is a new frontier. Reiki really is used in hospitals, in fact, many practictioners

are part of the traditional healing professions, ie, nurses, not especially prone to imaginings & woo.

Try to understand, healing is a process that is not completely understood.

Why do some cancer victims die and others go into remission? Some say it may be about our personal belief systems playing into the healing process and positive outlooks. There are huge unknowns in traditional medicine, which does not take away from what they do know with solid certainty.

No scientist or doctor would profess they know absolutely what works and what doesn't work.
They research and dig for more, advancements are made because we allow for possibilities and strive to find answers.

[mother earth]

388. One more thing, holistic medicine, alternative practitioners are SO sought after that people drive

long distances to utilizes their services. A good holistic MD is to be cherished! The cities are more likely to have a choice of these incredible integrative practitioners. I simply cannot sing their praises highly enough. They treat the whole person, they listen, they take time & they offer up incredibly valuable alternatives that are far less invasive.

I hope the option to utilizes these services spreads to all areas, I think because of the strides we are making in understanding the incredible services they offer and the growing alternatives that are being made available it is inevitable their availability will be more easily attained.

BTW, I'm from Massachusetts, where we take health care seriously, where some might say we paved the way for "Obamacare", but I praise VT for doing us one better.

HEALTH is nothing to take for granted and when we can make such strides in alternatives - it is nothing to scoff at. It is something to be applauded & encouraged.

[Humanist_Activist]

396. People also drive hundreds of miles to see psychics, I don't know why that is used as an argument.

Also, I have no problem with practices that treat the "whole person" whether psychologically/spiritually, and physically. The issue is when snake oil salesman and other peddlers of outright bullshit insinuate themselves into patients lives and take advantage of their vulnerability, I cannot think of a lower class of human being.

[mother earth]

409. Tell the police departments that use them to find missing children and adults. Let's not go there

on this thread, apparently you have not seen some of the Psychic Detectives shows. Hey, there ARE people who seem to have a gift, some kind of sense for that kind of work. But, on this thread we are talking alternative medicine.

Shall we set a time aside, I'd be very happy to discuss other issues with you. I just don't see the wisdom in trashing what we may not understand as "woo", hell, if I had a missing child or loved one, you can bet your ass I'd be looking into other avenues, I'd try them all.

Of course there are charlatans, isn't that true of every profession? They get weeded out pretty fast don't they? If not, feel sorry for the person paying for a service of no value, wouldn't they have bigger issues?

[Humanist_Activist]

412. Hey, you want to talk about psychics, why not talk about Sylvia Brown...

and her telling the parents of Shawn Hornbeck(local kid who was kidnapped in 2002) that he was dead. Not to mention all the other failed predictions she made. Psychics are fucking frauds, and no they don't get weeded out, do they? No, they get rich and famous instead, and you enable them?

ON EDIT: Here's a challenge, name ONE "legitimate" psychic.

[mother earth]

414. It was widely known she was a charlatan, I think Sylvia was entertainment. I told you there

are charlatans everywhere, you have to use your noggin.

Watch Psychic Detectives, there have been legitimate psychics who explain how they arrive at their conclusions & the police/detectives are there confirming, and no doubt skeptics everywhere are arguing the results. Who cares? If it works, more power to them.


Remember the Laci Petersen case? A renowned psychic from I think the Cape or Nantucket, Noreen Renier was used.
I can't give you evidence, but check it out online. She is used by PD's.

http://noreenrenier.com/

I told you, maybe another thread?

I think you secretly crave woo.

I offer zero proof, and don't much care what you or anybody else thinks about it. I love woo fighters, you are all a hoot. Why spend so much time on these idiotic subjects, you LOVE it, that's why. It's completely telling when staunch skeptic policemen are converts and serial woo seekers when they get stuck.

[Humanist_Activist]

422. Wow, just wow, an actor who is paid to peddle bullshit on TV...

how could I have known, yeah I researched it, apparently the show in question that you like so much is known for having psychics on it that have rather imaginative recollections of how they helped "solve" cases. And this is your strongest evidence. I'm sorry.

[mother earth]

425. I never said I liked it so much, I watched it one or twice, and when I watched it the psychics used

were there with the PD detective they worked the cases with who confirmed and shared their feelings too & confirmed the findings. The detectives were not eager to involve a psychic, they thought it was woo (I'm guessing), and later realized it was real (not my words, theirs). I don't think you researched shit, just sayin.

The whole case is shown, dogs involved in search, detectives confirming along the journey they are portraying. WTF? You really have issues. Maybe you should go kick a dog or pull the legs off a spider or something, am I trying to convince of something? absolutely NOT. There's no need to be ridiculous. I'm not the poster girl for psychics because I watched a flippin show. I happened to mention it here because YOU brought it up to add to your ridicule of alternative medicine.

You haven't experienced alternative medicine, & you certainly don't know about psychics, have you ever met one or had a reading?
Kinda hard to write off everybody as a charlatan (can't say I'm surprised tho when you write off alternative medicine t he same way), though I agree that particular profession is ripe with charlatans, anyway, this little parlay is over. It was not a pleasure, enjoy your escapade of ridicule thru DU, seems to be your forte.

[Humanist_Activist]

426. Met a psychic, I actually was one, for fun, if you can call it that.

Cold readings can make people cry in belief, it was a challenge and bet some buddies made years ago, frankly I regret it, I took advantage of someone and ultimately hurt their feelings, but you have no idea how easy it is to manipulate people, particularly face to face.

As far as the show, can you give an episode number, names of the people involved? Any evidence that there is anything besides vague and in many cases, inaccurate predictions?

You seem to forget the misses, but remember the hits, that's confirmation bias, and it is what psychics thrive on.

[mother earth]

428. You really like to go off topic and take it to new levels, "you people" are so transparent.

Anyway start a new thread, stop hijacking this one and do share your self-promoted psychic BS, then you can check my new video posting for some proof of energy medicine studies and results by fully accredited hospitals, since that is the issue at hand. Remember?

[BuddhaGirl]

398. Indeed

"HEALTH is nothing to take for granted and when we can make such strides in alternatives - it is nothing to scoff at. It is something to be applauded & encouraged."

That is a progressive position....mere clinging to allopathic methods is not.

There is room for both!

[Humanist_Activist]

399. "allopathic" in other words, stuff that ACTUALLY works.

Let the allopathic methods do their thing then, but don't give credit to unproven, unprovable, or impossible things.

[BuddhaGirl]

404. I give credit to both, as both have their place in healing

YMMV.

[Humanist_Activist]

405. So why can't healing be demonstrated for the alternatives you advocate for? n/t

[mother earth]

411. Absolutely, and thankfully that is taking place everyday as we learn that we do not have all

the answers. This is a very rich universe full of potential if we only have the courage to explore and continue to forge ahead.

Pity the fool who believes they have it all figured out, I think that would fall under a mental health issue.

[mother earth]

328. Sid, have you never heard of integrative medicine being practiced by MD's who have a more forward

thinking mode of practical expertise? It's called integrative because it takes the best of all medical arenas & it very specifically embraces naturopathy, acupuncture and other holistic principles.

You really, really need to get out and grow a little, the world is changing for the better in some aspects, this is one of them.

I hope we all can enjoy the benefits of integrative medicine & its practitioners on a more widespread scale, the impact would be huge and far less invasive than the old ways.

(I read your linked article, which is about Canada's system, in the USA practicing MD's who have all the rights in the world to prescribe and act as PCP's are integrating all aspects of health care. Do you take them as fools? It's a far more empowering aspect of health care and in no way can be described a pseudo-science or creepy. You ought to take it up some of those physicians who are practicing and flourishing and are sought after. There's a reason why it's in demand. Watch for its growth.)

[BuddhaGirl]

339. +1

[BootinUp]

367. I should have recc'd this the first time

I read it.

[darkangel218]

406. Oh please!!!

[BootinUp]

427. Holy Smokes! thats a lot of replies. I thought this was a pretty straightforward, common fucking...

sense post!

I think what we have here, is a bunch of Sid haters.

[SidDithers]

429. There a huge anti-science contingent that posts at DU...

Woo peddlers, who think Dr. Oz, Joseph Mercola and Mike Adams are the be all and end all of health information.



Sid