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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSunday Dental Thread: Leaking Composite Restorations and the Kennedy Assassination:
Do I have your attention? Perhaps? Good...then please read this entire post before you start spitting out your cornflakes or wheat germ or whatever...
In the early 1980's, what with all the narcissism, self-help books, ego-boosting, People Magazine buying, self-improvement kicks, one of things which people took note of was the presence of "unsightly" metal in their mouths, specifically amalgam and gold restorations otherwise known as fillings. In order to achieve a Hawthorn-ian Perfection of appearance, patients asked their dentists if they could place composite, normally specified only for front teeth, in their premolars and molars. The dental manufacturers, sensing a good thing, developed composites which were marginally appropriate for back teeth, if what you want to define as "marginally appropriate" was horrendously poor by then-community standards. This material began to fail, for the most part, before the check for the services rendered cleared the bank. Of course, the last thing a dentist wanted to do in those days was to have to revisit a tooth he or she had restored within 10-15 years and the practitioners were upset and most agitated that they were not having their usual 95-99% success rate. You must understand that 95% success over 10-15 years was considered poor back then. So the companies started working on their composite materials day and night and you cannot imagine the number of different brands proffered to the profession since then.
Now this is the interesting part of the story thus far: the economic pressures to increase production at the practitioner level brought a level of carelessness not often seen in the profession. We have a term for each material which we utilize which is how "technique sensitive" it is: that for example, you can place an amalgam restoration in the presence of some moisture, which you would call saliva, and be assured that it will have some fair success, say 10-12 years rather than 25-40 years. So amalgam is not too bad in this regard. Composite, however, has to be placed in an absolutely dry field and the etching for the placement of the unfilled resin has to be 100%...not 98...not 95...100% or it will begin leaking immediately leading to recurrent decay and virtually certain doom for the dental pulp of the tooth, necessitating a root canal, or if left undetected long enough, fracture and extraction. Now that is not the only problem: there are many others associated with composites. For example, if you place too much composite in a tooth which has a wide isthmus, or channel on the biting surface, the material will shrink, and since it is bonded to the outer and inner cusps of the tooth, it will tend to pull them together causing constant pain, as though someone placed extraction forceps on the tooth and squeezed continuously. This pain can be relieved, by the way, by channeling medio-laterally through the restoration and refilling it, thus relieving the internal tensions.
Now, what with all this going on, the manufacturers might have been screwn as they say, but no. They just kept merrily producing this stuff to this day and denying that there are any problems associated with its placement. Meanwhile, the technic (yes that is spelled correctly in dentistry) requires the use of aids to place it properly which are extremely time-consuming, intricate, and often simply fail: these include but are not limited to, fancy matrix bands and wedging techniques in order to establish a contact so food doesn't pack between the teeth, bases and liners which protect the nerve inside the tooth from the harm which might befall it due to the nature of the treatment materials, and other arcane issues which require resolution in order to have a satisfactory outcome. And of course, since there is a big big big profit motive here, and I say this without a smile on my face, there is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT THIS MATERIAL CAUSES PROBLEMS WHEN USED CORRECTLY. As an aside, my friends who are endodontists who do root canals all day, were well-pleased that some of their referring practitioners use this composite even for upper second molars which even we have problems visualizing with a mirror and bright light. Now of course, the manufacturers are dealing with people who are actually pretty bright, so instead of publishing a comprehensive study which would demonstrate that there is a dental morbidity and mortality associated with its use, they published literally hundreds of studies with all kinds of variables which were so confusing when read that you had no idea whether you were coming or going. And now, composite is the "material of choice" for back teeth. Anytime you attempt to quote a study which might demonstrate that there are significant problems, someone else will come up with three papers showing fifty different conclusions and you spend much of your time debating the experimental issues rather than the issues at hand.
And so it is with the assassinations of the Sixties and beyond: they put out so many theories, some sounding reasonable, some, not so reasonable, and some downright insane, that many people who can't distinguish one form the other, lump them all together and say, well, since I can't make heads or tails out of all this, then the official version must be true. Those who deny that there was variance with the Reports which emanated from official sources have many techniques for doing so which include but are not limited to: pure denial, denial of the existence of any credibility of any evidence to the contrary of their stated "facts", diminishing of the individual by associating them with such "wacky" issues as ostensibly faked moon-landings, disproving of the individual by pointing out one possible flaw in the entire argument, postulating that eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, stating unequivocally that there is an absolute profit motive surrounding the perpetuation of the issue, and many others.
To these and others I say, hogwash. The truth is staring you in the face, but the Establishment and others have set up so many two-way mirrors and falsities that you have no idea what is truth now and what is fiction. But the manufacturers have convinced many that their product is sound, we have come to accept failure as routine as a populus so that not only will you get restorations replaced in your mouth every five years instead of twenty-five years and that is all right, and also, incidentally, that you can have your President, his brother, and the leading Civil Right figure shot down in their primes and it really does not matter who might or might not have been involved. Good luck to all of us in these, and all respects. We are going to need it.
monmouth3
(3,871 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I'm about to start drinking.
Zen Democrat
(5,901 posts)But they don't fool the students of the assassination who see the truth through the crap. People can cling to the Warren Commission if it makes them feel better, but it's total garbage. Dr. Pierre Finck testified to the Warren Commission one way, but when cross-examined in the Clay Shaw trial he admitted that the doctors were NOT in charge of the autopsy, that Dr. Boswell was answering to the military brass crowding the room, especially a big-time general.
When Allen Dulles was questioned by other commissioners in executive session about the loose ends and contradictions in the report, he famously said, "People don't read." Some of them did and do.
Thanks for your post.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)So, as a person that will likely find this topic personally relevant, what should I tell my dentist to use to fill my molars and/or bicuspids?
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)Just kidding.
Whatever makes sense. Just ask about the limitations of the material. If it were my mouth, amalgam or gold inlay/onlays.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)There are pros and cons to each.
Both can leak...any restoration can leak. The best choice in dentistry is gold. But that's usually quite expensive and insurance is not likely to pay much for it.
In the past the composites where not used in back teeth because the chewing forces were too strong. But certain advances have been made and most dentists are now placing them in molars.
Ultimately the biggest factor in how well a restoration lasts is the skill of the dentist. If you get 10 or more years out of a filling or crown without any maintenance on it, regardless of material, you got your money's worth and the dentist did a good job. If it fails very quickly, it is likely it wasn't placed very well.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)It's not "I can't make heads nor tails out of this, therefore the official version must be true". In my own case, re JFK? I thought there was a conspiracy, once...until I looked at the actual evidence. Which supports the conclusions reached by the Warren Commission (which are substantially the same results reached by the House Select Committee), which have been confirmed by repeated ballistic and forensic analyses and comparison of known evidence with modern computer reconstructions of the scene and the shooting using technology not available 50 years ago. Sometimes? Random things just happen. The world is chaotic.
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)rambling...for certain. Chaotic? Absolutely surrealistic...
Thank you once again for proving my point so eloquently...
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)That there are some conspiracies doesn't prove that all conspiracy theories are automatically true. That GM and Standard Oil and Firestone conspired to buy up streetcar companies doesn't prove that GM bought the secret of the 100mpg carburetor and buried it; that the CIA conspired to assassinate Castro or Allende or Patrice Lumumba doesn't prove they conspired to assassinate Kennedy. The fact that we have positive evidence of these other conspiracies tends to point to the lack of conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination; if it were conspiracy, why is there no evidence that contradicts the "official version", after 50 years? Not connection and supposition and "these people stood to profit by it", but actual documented evidence?
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)You're not dealing with a bunch of morons who will be distracted by your attempts over the past few weeks to hijack these threads by making it personal and vilifying others including me. Nice try. I and others have been here a long long time.
I might suggest Ted Mack's Amateur Hour...
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)I haven't made anything personal, nor have I vilified anyone. Point to where I have, please? If your reaction to a general comment on conspiracy thinking is to take it as a personal attack, then perhaps you should refrain from discussing the subject. (I've been here a long, long time too. Longer than you have.)
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)I presented a reasoned OP and you denigrated it without specifics and more importantly, without contradiction of any of my theses.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Not in paragraphs five and six, anyway. I see an impassioned but not very rational conflation of unrelated events, a general denigration of people who accept the "official version" as being too stupid or lazy to see what you claim is obvious, and a general misrepresentation of arguments. (I think you'll find that almost without exception those people who accept the findings of the Warren Commission, for instance, formerly entertained the idea that conspiracy was a possibility or probability until they undertook to inform themselves.)
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)Well then I suppose that entirely invalidates my existence.
One dose of hyperbole deserves another.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)any who might disagree with you and your being in lockstep with warren commission lies(findings).
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)yes, and it's spelled, really
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)Particularly since you continually insist that the Warren Commission was wrong, but so far have refused to give even one example of something that you think they got wrong. It seems that you've believed in a conspiracy the whole time, and have carefully avoided getting entangled in facts that might lead you to question your beliefs.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)of counter evidence to the warren commission lies(findings) in the public domain. You just have to be opened minded enough and awake to realize it.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)someone might give you credence and/or credibility. Until then, stay asleep.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)are you having some hurt feelings? I'm sorry.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)in, say, 2008 if you can.
I read a book several years ago that raised questions I had not thought of. And like so many others, it made me aware that there ar serious questions that were never answered.
I have already, several times, told you the most flawed 'finding' of the WC was that Oswald was a 'lone gunman'.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)But instead it's just vague generalities. What evidence is there of a second gunman? None.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)fired the shots is irrelevant and mostly a distraction from the real question. Please try to keep things straight. I don't care who fired the shots, other than they should of course be punished, as Oswald was but conveniently, BEFORE he could talk. I want to know what Oswald could have told us about who he was associated with, why there is so much confusion over his trip to Mexico, etc etc. So many questions, so few answers.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)So one post ago, you were telling a different story.
To say that Oswald was shot before he could talk is simply false. He was already arrested and had been questioned by the police by the time he was shot. If someone powerful wanted to silence him, presumably they would have done it before he was arrested, while he was wandering the streets alone, rather than waiting until he was already questioned, and then sending in a guy to shoot him on live TV in a room full of cops.
Who actually fired the shots is not irrelevant, it is a central question. Even if you believe in a conspiracy, it is still a central question, because it narrows down the kinds of conspiracies that are possible. And the answer is that Oswald and Oswald alone fired the shots. The evidence proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. That means that the only possible kind of conspiracy is a conspiracy involving Oswald alone as shooter. If you were honestly interested in what actually happened, you would take this into account, rather than trying to dismiss it as unimportant.
Questions are not evidence. Also, most of your questions have answers, you just haven't read about them. For example, there really isn't much confusion over his trip to Mexico. He went there to try to get a visa to Cuba, which he failed to get. He went to the Cuban consulate, then the Russian Embassy. There are witnesses.
But, even if you have unanswered questions (which there will always be some), none of that is evidence of a conspiracy. In the end, you have no evidence of conspiracy. Just speculation and unfounded assumptions.
pacalo
(24,721 posts)It was a lengthy essay, but PC Intern used his area of expertise as an analogy for those who ignore the inconvenient facts.
"Random things just happen." Like three assassinations total, each within a few years apart: JFK, MLK, & RFK. (Bobby Kennedy had an excellent chance of winning the '68 election.)
Celebration
(15,812 posts)I don't know much about composite fillings, but I do wonder how ANYONE can fall for the lone assassin theory.
But some people feel that if there is one "expert" who comes out with a report that the same bullet hit Connally and Kennedy, then Oswald did it alone. Uh, that does not work for me and shouldn't for anyone.
So, I didn't watch the recent PBS special about the single bullet, but I saw the person involved interviewed. He kept talking about "just the science" and "no preconceived notions" and also making logical conclusions, etc. etc. .... all this gobbledygook which just sounded great..................Really!! No preconceived notions, not jumping to conclusions, just the science.
Well, one bullet hits them both, yada yada, making whatever assumptions and science.
Then he is asked why so many people have questions about the Warren Report?????
What do you think he says, "Because so many people have a hard time wrapping their mind around a lone assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, a known Communist, could have pulled it off alone."
Ummm, did the special have anything to do with LHO being a Communist???? No. Just what kind of a scientific statement was that???
Can anyone say "OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD" in full swing?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)It was not one but two independent experts who analyzed both the bullet found in the stretcher and also the bullet fragments found in JFK's car. Both came to the same conclusion: that the "magic" bullet and the fragments from the bullet that hit JFK in the head were fired from Oswald's rifle.
On the other hand, what evidence is there of multiple gunmen or any kind of conspiracy? The answer is, none, apart from the belief that a lone nut couldn't or shouldn't be able to change the course of history by shooting the most powerful man in the world. But, while tempting, this belief is not rational, at least from a historical perspective. There are plenty of examples of lone nuts shooting US presidents, and no examples of vast conspiracies involving the CIA/FBI/MIC or any of the other usual suspects.
People who believe in the lone gunman are persuaded by science and by evidence. Perhaps one can justify skepticism of science, along the same lines of reasoning that global warming deniers use (the whole "I don't believe in experts" thing you seem to be driving at). But how can you justify your apparent certainty that the lone gunman theory is wrong?
Celebration
(15,812 posts)What evidence is there that LHO was a Communist? If he was such a committed Communist, why did we let him back in the country so easily in the midst of the cold war??
My point is that the guy kept talking about no preconceived notions but yet used the "LHO was a Communist" meme with no scientific proof or any kind of proof whatsoever. Did he hand out leaflets? Yes. What does that prove? Nothing. Evidence is much stronger that he was actually a CIA asset. On his "escape" into Russia he stayed in luxury hotels. I suppose he paid for that?
You cannot supposedly disprove one part of a "conspiracy theory" and dismiss the whole thing.
And most of us should know that "science" involves myriads of assumptions, and that conclusions are often very narrowly drawn.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Which are a matter of record. Including letters to the Socialist Worker's Party, letters to various Communist newspapers, et cetera. He was a self-described Marxist from his teens until his death.
And Oswald had planned his trip to the Soviet Union well in advance and had saved $1500 out of his Marine Corps pay (almost $12,000 in current dollars, adjusted for inflation). The answer is yes, he paid for it (and "luxury hotel" is a relative term when talking about Moscow in 1959).
Celebration
(15,812 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)This was clear from his writings and public statements. However, he was more of a nut with an inflated sense of self-importance than anything else.
There is zero evidence that he was a CIA asset. Only speculation based on the fact that he defected to the Soviet Union and back. That is not evidence.
The science of matching bullets to the guns that fired them isn't some speculative newfangled field, it is solid and well-understood. As a simple example, ballistics matches are far more concretely understood than climate science.
Are you willing to concede that the forensic evidence proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Oswald and Oswald alone shot JFK? Because it does. I agree that this forensic evidence alone does not prove or disprove anything about whether Oswald was working for the CIA. For that we have to look at other evidence, and particularly the lack of evidence of any kind of conspiracy.
But the theory, for example, that JFK's head shot came from a second gunman on the grassy knoll, can be conclusively disproved by very non-controversial scientific means.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)One Palm Print on the Rifle
The absence of identifiable fingerprints around the trigger on the rifle tells us nothing about who, if anyone, fired the rifle on 22 November. The palm print on the underside of the rifle barrel shows that Oswald had handled the rifle, but not that he did so on the day of the assassination.
Suspicions of Corrupt Evidence
The inability of the FBI examiners to detect anything other than faint fingerprints on the rifle; the failure of the Dallas police to supply the FBI with contemporaneous photographs of the palmprint; and the lack of any official announcements about an incriminating palmprint, make it not unreasonable to suppose that the palmprint on the rifle was manufactured after the event, and that there is consequently no evidence that Oswald had handled the rifle at all.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)not evidence of lack of handling the rifle.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid4.htm
If the palm print under the rifle were the only evidence against Oswald, then you would have a point. But that's far from the case. We know for a fact that it was his rifle that fired all three shots, and that they was fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD. We know he owned the rifle, and we know that he made a special trip home the night before, and on his way to work, he carried a rifle-sized bag that he claimed were "curtain rods", even though his apartment in Dallas already had curtain rods.
There was an eyewitness who saw him in the window during the shooting, gave an accurate description to the police immediately afterwards, and later testified to the WC, under oath, that he was sure Oswald was the man he saw.
Oswald was last seen by anyone before the shooting on the 6th floor, when another employee asked if he was heading down for lunch and he said no. Oswald's prints were all over the "sniper's nest" where the shooting took place. No employee at the TSBD saw anyone else in the building that didn't work there. In police custody, Oswald lied and claimed he was having lunch at the time, but the people he was supposedly in the same room with testified that they didn't see him. Oswald was the only employee of the TSBD who fled the scene after the shooting, and he subsequently shot a Dallas police officer who tried to question him.
BTW, if you think that Oswald was CIA, why would you think that he wasn't actually the shooter?
Celebration
(15,812 posts)And did you EVER wonder why Oswald's military records are still classified?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/biographies/oswald/oswald-the-cia-and-mexico-city/
STILL CLASSIFIED? FOR WHAT REASON?
While many of the pieces of this story became evident from the early 1993 and 1994 releases of documents to the Assassination Records Review Board, the daunting contours of the Mexico City story and the ensuing national security cover-up were not apparent until the late 1990s when the work of the Assassination Records Review Board was completed and earlier documents, which had been heavily redacted, were released in full.
Looking back over the 40 years since this case began, three things stand out. First, while cover stories may achieve their objective in the short run, they undermine public confidence when the truth comes out as it inevitably does. Second, releasing the records to the public is the first step toward restoring that confidence. FRONTLINEs documentary, my book, and this article would not have been possible without those records.
Finally, with 6 million pages added to the National Archives on this case from the Review Boards work, we need to be patient and temper our inclination to want all the answers right away. We need a small army to read, analyze, and interpret what is now rightfully ours and what remains to be discovered of the historical record. For while the 1990s release of intelligence files was enormous, there are still some records that are missing for example, Oswalds Marine Corps G-2 files and some of the FBI files in 1959-60. They remain classified and might provide useful information.The staff of the Mexico CIA station and others at headquarters such as Richard Helms and George Kalaris (in their various memoranda and testimonies during the years after the assassination) would have little reason to contradict the record unless the record is untrue. Lies, as Hoover observed in that scolding note regarding the CIA to his subordinates, were told in the days after the assassination. As much as to protect sources and methods, these lies appear to have been invented to buttress the lone-assassin story itself ostensibly created for the purpose of preventing war and saving millions of lives. Whether or not this also permitted conspirators to avoid the scrutiny of investigation a possibility I take seriously is something we will continue to debate.
While many of the pieces of this story became evident from the early 1993 and 1994 releases of documents to the Assassination Records Review Board, the daunting contours of the Mexico City story and the ensuing national security cover-up were not apparent until the late 1990s when the work of the Assassination Records Review Board was completed and earlier documents, which had been heavily redacted, were released in full.
Looking back over the 40 years since this case began, three things stand out. First, while cover stories may achieve their objective in the short run, they undermine public confidence when the truth comes out as it inevitably does. Second, releasing the records to the public is the first step toward restoring that confidence. FRONTLINEs documentary, my book, and this article would not have been possible without those records.
Finally, with 6 million pages added to the National Archives on this case from the Review Boards work, we need to be patient and temper our inclination to want all the answers right away. We need a small army to read, analyze, and interpret what is now rightfully ours and what remains to be discovered of the historical record. For while the 1990s release of intelligence files was enormous, there are still some records that are missing for example, Oswalds Marine Corps G-2 files and some of the FBI files in 1959-60. They remain classified and might provide useful information.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)And then you should read my actual post, which points out that even without the palm print, there is plenty of conclusive evidence that it was Oswald and Oswald alone who did the shooting. The palm print is a tiny part of the case.
The fact that some files are still classified proves nothing. Again, that's not evidence, only speculation. There are plenty of reasons why things are classified. Personally, I would like to see everything declassified (which is apparently scheduled to happen in 2017), primarily so the "why are there classified files" argument would go away.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)In addition to the fact that there's zero evidence of it, that the KGB concluded he was not CIA, and that both the KGB and CIA concluded that they thought he was a nut and not the kind of person that they would want to work with (which he was).
--He got the job at the TSBD before JFK's route through Dallas was determined, which makes it impossible that he got the job intentionally for the purpose of the assassination.
--He got the job from the neighbor of a friend, neither of whom have any evidence of involvement with the CIA or anyone else.
--He used a cheap $12 bolt-action rifle. If he was working for someone, at the very least they would have bought him a better rifle, a semi-automatic that wouldn't have to be manually cycled between shots.
--He had no getaway plan whatsoever. After he fled, he got on a bus.
--If the CIA or anyone else wanted to silence him, they would have done it immediately, while he was wandering the streets alone, rather than wait until he had already talked to the police, and then send in a hit man to shoot him on live TV in a room full of cops, thus guaranteeing that there would still be a co-conspirator in police custody that could talk.
It's impossible to believe that the CIA or whoever was skilled enough to pull off a massive cover-up which would have had to involve many dozens of people in different organizations, and has held up through multiple investigations over 50 years, and yet they couldn't manage to have Oswald assassinated more cleanly. Nor that they would put the mission at risk by using a cheap bolt-action rifle.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)I taught science, math and was a criminal federal court coordinator we have plenty on our side that see the truth because of the evidence we have seen and researched.
You have your selective facts but we have more.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)But somehow nobody seems to actually mention what they are. Why so shy? I have no problem listing facts that conclusively prove that Oswald was the lone shooter. Why do CTers refer to "facts" and "flaws" in the abstract?
Maybe it's a literary device, you know, like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction, where we never get to see what's inside, but that's supposed to make it all the more mystical and alluring...
Orrex
(63,228 posts)QED.
MH1
(17,608 posts)I still am agnostic on the JFK assassination and will trust my excellent dentist* regarding his choice of materials, but it was very interesting and I appreciate your effort and agree with your basic point.
* Having found an excellent dentist is very high on my list of things to be thankful for; I have had too many unfortunate experiences with the not-so-excellent.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I recently got a replacement gold crown & root canal (around 15 years old, wore through, and I was not prompt in getting it attended to) and I noticed it had little channels in it, now I know why. It seems to be settling in OK now.
Edit: remember the "Gish Gallop"? That's what it is.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Given that you've presented no evidence whatsoever of any kind of JFK conspiracy (not surprising, because there isn't any), why do you hold moon-landing CTers or birth certificate CTers to a different standard than JFK CTers?
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)PCIntern
(25,597 posts)Or not...either way you and your crowd prove my point exquisitely.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)PCIntern
(25,597 posts)But that's the whole idea isn't it? DU rules prevent me from further comment in this regard.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)PCIntern
(25,597 posts)someone who gives a da(r)n what you think.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)DU used to be such a wonderful place. Hmm.
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)People with attention spans longer than two minutes were numerous and the majority. Now we are filled with anti-intellectual types. It really is a shame.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Arguing for reaching conclusions based on the evidence, rather than starting with a conclusion and groping blindly for any least bit of evidence that supports it, no matter how flimsy, is somehow "anti-intellectual"?
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)There's plenty, no, an enormous amount of evidence which you absolutely deny exists. That is anti intellectual
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Name it.
Not "but J Edgar Hoover supposedly said", not "but JFK hated Allen Dulles". Not hearsay and speculation and connecting random dots. Actual evidence.
You know what the actual evidence says? That the bullet that killed Kennedy was fired from Oswald's rifle, from the sixth floor of the TSBD. That a single bullet struck Kennedy and Connally. That there were only three shots, all fired from Oswald's rifle, that was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD along with three spent shells. That there were no other shooters in Dealey Plaza. No other shots. That a bullet from Oswald's revolver, that was in his possession when he was arrested, killed a police officer. That the timing of JFK's Dallas visit, and the selection of the Trade Mart as the event location, when taken into account with the known manner in which Oswald got the job and the date he started work, was such as to preclude any conspiracy in the selection of the motorcade route. That the timing of Oswald's transfer to the county jail, which had been announced on television and radio for 10am (at which time Jack Ruby was still at home) was delayed, and that the timing of Ruby's shooting of Oswald and the surrounding circumstances are of such a nature as to preclude conspiracy. This is what all of the verifiable evidence of ballistics and forensics says, and what a reasonable analysis of the circumstances surrounding Oswald's presence in the TSBD and Ruby's presence at Oswald's transfer says. On the other side, against all of this evidence, we have...what? Assertions unsupported by substantiative evidence in multiple investigations.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)is sheeple. You sound like every Paulbot/Alex Jones nut I've ever met. One gunman, 3 bullets. It's fairly simple. All evidence points that way. ALL EVIDENCE. There is ZERO evidence that points to a conspiracy of any sort. But if you look hard enough, you can find a conspiracy in anything.
The only people following blindly are those following on faith alone while ignoring all the evidence. IE, you. Wake up, indeed.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)so your insult is noted. I am awake, been awake since the coup happened. Sheeple, you must have looked at yourself in the mirror this morning closely. Stay in lockstep down that blind alley, it fits you and the rest of the naysayers on here. Hell your group is like that band in National Lampoon's 'Animal House during that parade at the end. There are enough of you. But then what could I expect.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)Before we had an understanding of science, we used to make shit up. You know, like myths for why there's a season, the sun setting and rising. Some peoples minds never evolved enough to be able to accept rational and scientific thought, and they still make shit up. I'm sorry you can't wrap your head around science and ballistics and forensic evidence. Your handicap is duly noted.
EDIT: Spelling
heaven05
(18,124 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)with people like PC and others like you, still is
Octafish
(55,745 posts)A professor from Virginia Tech wrote there are two basic ways to communicate knowledge (or "meaning" : "maps" and "stories."
Two Kinds of Knowledge: Maps and Stories
HENRY H. BAUER
Chemistry & Science Studies
Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University
Blacksburg, VA 24061 02/2
J
AbstractThe most reliable knowledge is map like: "If you do this, then that will always follow." But such knowledge carries little if any inherent human meaning. Most meaningful is story like knowledge, which teaches about morals and values; but about that, agreement cannot be forced by demonstration. Failure to distinguish between the meaningfulness and the re¬liability of knowledge helps to make arguments intractable. It would be very useful always to ask about a bit of claimed knowledge, "Is this more like a story or more like a map ?"
PDF to full article:
http://www.henryhbauer.homestead.com/2kndsweb.pdf
So, to make something memorable requires a good story. Think, "Hansel and Gretel." Parents can't feed kids and are forced to abandom them in the forest. Kids, being human, don't want that and leave bread crumbs to get back. Birds eat bread trail. Kids get lost and find witch's cottage...etc." The details may not be the same on each telling, but the basic elements are the same.
Complicated things require maps: Owners manual for a car, a map showing the location of towns, roads, bridges, etc. Almost no one can memorize all the details required, hence they must be written down and referenced. The thing is, until the advent of smartphones, no one could carry around a reference library with them.
OTOH: Hear a good story ONCE -- as a kid or as an adult -- and we don't forget. That's why Karl Rove and his ilk were so quick to attack Joseph Wilson through Valerie Plame: No way could the truth get into the public mind before their twisted version of reality -- Saddam Hussein and Iraq were behind 9-11 and planned to use WMDs.
In the case of the assassination of President Kennedy, the story that the "specialists" wanted heard first and loudest was that Oswald did it alone. Seeing what's happened to the country in the intervening 50 years, the fact the "Money trumps peace" crowd get ahead, shows the effectiveness of their story and the magic bullet theory on which it's based.
The assassinations of President Kennedy, Dr. King, and Sen. Kennedy hold so much information, they each require library shelves to hold all the information known and written about them. No mind I know can hold, let alone cross-reference, all the information known about each of them. It's why discussion and sharing of ideas is so important: The free sharing of information, ideas and perspectives why democracy works.
Putting the complex into a story form requires an artist or an expert in information science. Edward Tufte comes to mind.
Another guy who grokked it was Mark Lombardi. We talked about him on DU, way back when.
In the cases of the assassinations of America's liberal, progressive and DEMOCRATIC leadership, the story line we are told by the corporate press is "lone nut." Those who study the maps, with all their faults, soon see there is a lot more to the stories.
Thanks for sharing your charts and story with us, PCIntern. Those who care about justice and democracy will remember.
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)tblue37
(65,490 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)
in their (storytelling) use of propaganda, while Dems assume a single attempt to convey "just the facts, Ma'am" is sufficient and then ordinary people will see the truth.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...and its application to "take the risk out of democracy" as Alex Carey put it:
Alex Carey: Corporations and Propaganda
The Attack on Democracy
The 20th century, said Carey, is marked by three historic developments: the growth of democracy via the expansion of the franchise, the growth of corporations, and the growth of propaganda to protect corporations from democracy. Carey wrote that the people of the US have been subjected to an unparalleled, expensive, 3/4 century long propaganda effort designed to expand corporate rights by undermining democracy and destroying the unions. And, in his manuscript, unpublished during his life time, he described that history, going back to World War I and ending with the Reagan era. Carey covers the little known role of the US Chamber of Commerce in the McCarthy witch hunts of post WWII and shows how the continued campaign against "Big Government" plays an important role in bringing Reagan to power.
John Pilger called Carey "a second Orwell", Noam Chomsky dedicated his book, Manufacturing Consent, to him. And even though TUC Radio runs our documentary based on Carey's manuscript at least every two years and draws a huge response each time, Alex Carey is still unknown.
Given today's spotlight on corporations that may change. It is not only the Occupy movement that inspired me to present this program again at this time. By an amazing historic coincidence Bill Moyers and Charlie Cray of Greenpeace have just added the missing chapter to Carey's analysis. Carey's manuscript ends in 1988 when he committed suicide. Moyers and Cray begin with 1971 and bring the corporate propaganda project up to date.
This is a fairly complex production with many voices, historic sound clips, and source material. The program has been used by writers and students of history and propaganda. Alex Carey: Taking the Risk out of Democracy, Corporate Propaganda VS Freedom and Liberty with a foreword by Noam Chomsky was published by the University of Illinois Press in 1995.
SOURCE: http://tucradio.org/new.html
Thankfully, to help spread light when the protectors of the First Amendment won't, Maria Galardin's TUC (Time of Useful Consciousness) Radio. The podcast helps explain how we got here and what we need to do to move forward, starting with putting the "Public" into Airwaves again:
http://tucradio.org/AlexCarey_ONE.mp3
If you find a moment, here's the first part (scroll down at the link for the second part) on Carey.
The Propaganda System That Has Helped Create a Permanent Overclass Is Over a Century in the Making
Pulling back the curtain on how intent the wealthiest Americans have been on establishing a propaganda tool to subvert democracy.
Wednesday, 17 April 2013 00:00
By Andrew Gavin Marshall, AlterNet | News Analysis
Where there is the possibility of democracy, there is the inevitability of elite insecurity. All through its history, democracy has been under a sustained attack by elite interests, political, economic, and cultural. There is a simple reason for this: democracy as in true democracy places power with people. In such circumstances, the few who hold power become threatened. With technological changes in modern history, with literacy and education, mass communication, organization and activism, elites have had to react to the changing nature of society locally and globally.
From the late 19th century on, the threats to elite interests from the possibility of true democracy mobilized institutions, ideologies, and individuals in support of power. What began was a massive social engineering project with one objective: control. Through educational institutions, the social sciences, philanthropic foundations, public relations and advertising agencies, corporations, banks, and states, powerful interests sought to reform and protect their power from the potential of popular democracy.
SNIP...
The development of psychology, psychoanalysis, and other disciplines increasingly portrayed the public and the population as irrational beings incapable of making their own decisions. The premise was simple: if the population was driven by dangerous, irrational emotions, they needed to be kept out of power and ruled over by those who were driven by reason and rationality, naturally, those who were already in power.
The Princeton Radio Project, which began in the 1930s with Rockefeller Foundation funding, brought together many psychologists, social scientists, and experts armed with an interest in social control, mass communication, and propaganda. The Princeton Radio Project had a profound influence upon the development of a modern "democratic propaganda" in the United States and elsewhere in the industrialized world. It helped in establishing and nurturing the ideas, institutions, and individuals who would come to shape Americas democratic propaganda throughout the Cold War, a program fostered between the private corporations which own the media, advertising, marketing, and public relations industries, and the state itself.
CONTINUED...
http://truth-out.org/news/item/15784-the-propaganda-system-that-has-helped-create-a-permanent-overclass-is-over-a-century-in-the-making
Unfortunately, Corporate McPravda owns and operates what goes over the airwaves. And, even in the time of the Internet, Corporate Tee Vee is still where most Americans get most of their information.
It's important for there to be more than a handful of companies providing "news." Democracy -- and Justice and Justice for JFK, MLK and RFK -- depend on it.
bananas
(27,509 posts)"Time of Useful Consciousness" is the time between the onset of oxygen deficiency and the loss of consciousness.
These are the brief moments in which a pilot may save the plane.
Maria Gilardin
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Her series on Fukushima made my heart drop into my socks.
You know Nippon and the people of Japan mean the world to me.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)so many so-called opened minded establishment lie believers, on this site, just don't, won't accept the truth. I was just thinking this very thing, the other day. That if there is enough confusion generated about a situation(assassination) no truth can be forthcoming. There are a couple of people on here that I've dealt with since the 22nd that are in lockstep with the warren commission lie(findings). So be it. Thanks again for a very lucid analogy, allegory.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)IMO, institutional failure, above, as in it's a reasonable expectation for a dental professional to expect the ADA to study, review and assess products, rather than the individual practitioner. (Analogously, it's a reasonable expectation by a citizen to expect fact-finding commissions to be thorough and accurate.)
Institutional failure, below, well, check out the players. Red flags galore. Where were the state dental boards? (I stumbled across the terrible story a couple of days ago, though it's old news.)
Roberta Baskin, a 2002 Nieman Fellow, has won more than 75 journalism awards and serves on the boards of the Journalism & Women Symposium, Images & Voices of Hope, International Communications Forum-America, the Robert F. Kennedy Journalism Awards Committee, and the Nieman Foundations Advisory Board. Drilling for Dollars won a 2009 Alfred I. duPont-Columbia University Award.
BOTTOM LINE: VET YOUR EXPERTS
The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)Stick to dental care doc and leave history to the historians.
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)Amalgams made Oswald a patsy.
Paulie
(8,462 posts)Or were people sniffing too much Nitruos?
I had a gold onlay that lasted about 10 years. Initial damage was a stone in a hard whole grain roll. But it corroded under the onlay and required a root canal. Now have a milled composite restoration that fits exactly. I got to watch the 3D modeling and milling process.
Just had my last amalgam fail after like 25 years now with epoxy fill.
Where is my copy of catcher in the rye?
Orrex
(63,228 posts)Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?
freshwest
(53,661 posts)One thing is, that the pain and loss of the actions described, and how they affected the minds of millions. JFK, MLK, RFK and the desire of people to change the nation for the better. Moral, eloquent, intelligent, determined men cut down in their prime.
History shows that the death of some people means the death of a movement. In these cases, the result was not as peaceful to make change as it could have been, but perhaps it never would have been peaceful, anyway. And the movements survived through the seventies, and then regressives acted with more boldness, some say, because of the assassinations of these men.
But is that true? There is a saying that 'Good comes to those who wait... But the evil things are always in a hurry.' That's the philosophy and strategy of the regressives, and it works. Strike fast, hard, ruthlessly, like any marauder or wild animal, make off with the spoils quickly and leave nothing but disarray.
That's just unbearable for many, a loss that cannot be overcome. They will nurse that grudge through generations, just as the South has, just as some on our part of the aisle have. It's true, many people will never get to parity with what they had before the attacks, which was not an unintended consequence, either. The American consciousness has been a battleground for years, and now we have taken sides that are irreversible, perhaps.
Some people want to liken these times to those, but they really cannot do so. A generation was united with a belief in justice and equality and those ideas came not from media trends, but from a document that had real legal power, the Constitution. Now we have many who have no knowledge of how that works and so they have lost that power. They lhave no idea how to make it work, so they flail about.
Was it all planned? Were the lone gunmen stochastic terrorists or where they flunkies for those with the most to gain? In a way, I want it to be about the people I despise, since they do not see me as a human being. I want to pull all the threads together to make a devil. Team spirit, yeah!
Grief goes through a series of stages. Among them are shock, anger, denial, bargaining and then acceptance that things will never be the same. In those days, JFK, MLK and RFK were beloved by millions of people, whose hearts soared as they saw them walk among them, and saw men who were human beings with power who cared. Now, the American people can no longer fathom that such a person truly exists, they think it's all an act like a movie. Yes, Hollywood has done its part to make the world look like a fantasy, and yet it is real and suffering, but we are too preoccupied to face it. We love that reality more than the world.
Some romanticize the sixties and those men and refuse to let them go, will not quit their desire for the way things were then. They want a justice served that will never come, as the world is not necessarily built on that.
Was it just to create the USA over the bodies of the natives? Did the clearing of the land by slaves from Africa just because it was expedient to create wealth the right thing to do because the ends justify the means? Our side of the aisle gives a strong NO. The other sees it as inevitable.
A lot of incredibly evil things were going on in the sixties. A lot of festering wounds were being opened and put in the light. Some are still in denial about those, too. I'd say our side of the aisle wants those wounds cleaned out and the infection excised. The right wants to put a bandage on it and would allow the patient to die of gangrene.
But now, due to technical and social engineering, we live in a disjointed and disconnected society. Our public education system that, for good or bad, taught people basic things that created our reality, and gave them tools to make a living has been under attack since Nixon, in order to reduce the number of people able to comprehend how we got here and make effective changes in a way that will last. And that was intentional. Is it a conspiracy or simply the nature of the regressives, with the time and money to do such things?
There were only a few networks to give the same message and in comparison to now, it was that 'liberal media' the right keeps whining about to shut down any discussion. It is now reduced solely to the propaganda of a few billionaires who are conservative libertarians. For them, laissez faire capitalism with no regard for the poor or equality and have destroyed WORLDS, human, natural and mental, is ideal. They can loot and leave like pirates.
Was that a conspiracy? Or was it the xcorpion following its true nature? Do we have any control over these things? These are the things that fuel CT. It just can't be that simple, it must be super natural or global or some ancient plan and not our fault.
Another thing that fuels the disagreements on the matter of the assassinations, is what we have been taught is the nature of the American mind. In comic book style, it is like this:
We are taught to rebel against all authority, to be free thinkers, to resist and be argumentative. Just like the Warren Commission is suspect because it is part of the evil gubbermint. Just like the 9/11 report because Bush was there. Is it all a cover up?
We may want to believe so, as we have NOT been satisfied by the explanations given. Our grief and loss has not been healed. We suspect, but cannot prove. That is the power of a great CT. We cannot bring these great men of our youth back to life, nor can we go back to what some see as a more honest, noble time.
So perhaps we are dealing with a part of ourselves that is hurting and irrational. And we are dealing with the great building up era being torn down. We can deny this is happening, but it will happen. All that we believed in at one time will come to an end. I leave you with perhaps not a very well thought out response as I am in a hurry, but is from a story using a quote that to me is both painful and liberating:
A man named Charles Sanders Pierce once said:
'If man were immortal he could be perfectly sure of seeing the day when every thing in which he had trusted should betray his trust, and, in short, of coming eventually to hopeless misery. He would break down, at last, as every good fortune, as every dynasty, as every civilization does. In place of this we have death.'
Put that way, death can be seen as a blessing. A way to hold on to some of your ideals and beliefs, to not get completely embittered by life.
Have a good week, PC Intern.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)any of the OP.
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)Not to worry.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)is illegal in europe...
My kids had to have them alll replaced
PCIntern
(25,597 posts)lordsummerisle
(4,651 posts)on the hazards of mercury in amalgam fillings, thought it was the main reason composites are now used. My own dentist wouldn't stop using amalgams until he was convinced that composites could hold their own...