My experience with Universal health Care

[Diclotican]

Hello

As some of you might know - I'm living in a small country in the north of Europe, in Norway - where we have universal health care for all.. And I will like to tell you all, an experience I had when I got sick a month ago. But please, bear over with me, when it come to the grammar - as some of you might know - I'm not fluent in english as it is.. and my grammar is maybe somewhat off most of the time, but I will try to write as good as I manage..

Well, a mount ago I got sick - really sick - even though I was first at my local doctor - and was given some medication for an small infection I was still sick, and was starting to be more and more sick as the week passed.. Finally at an sunday I asked my nabour to come pick me up, and drive me to the emergency room - And I guess it was time for it as I was feeling really sick....

At the emergency room - I had to fill out some paper (of course) but I managed - and had to wait for a while before I was called up and was coming in to the emergency rom for real.. When I finally got into an room where a doctor was, I was put on IV - and a lot of blood work was being doing on me - I was still sick as hell - and was rather helpless where I was laying.. After some test I was put in intensive care - the doctors was afraid I had a blood cloth in one of my lungs - so I was ex rayed and had a lot of other blood work being doing on me.. The first days was somewhat in a haze as I was on IV, got a lot of medication - They discovered I had pneumonia and a kidney that was not working at all - So I continued to be on IV for a long time, to get the kidney working properly again (it took almost 3 weeks to make it so ). But I managed at least, and was in hospital for most of 3 weeks - on medication - when my kidney was starting to work again I was taken off the IV, but they did kept an eye on me for as long as I was at the hospital.. But I did had another problem who surfaced rather unfriendly - I have a condition who can give me some problems in the joints specially the knees - as I was off my regular medication - this condition surfaced in all its pain and misery - so the hospital stay was not the most pleasant for me even as I was given painkillers to manage it all..

After almost 2 weeks, I was transported to an another hospital - across the street from where I was before - a smaller one, but who had expertise for the one problem I had with my knees ... There I was given first class service from the nurses and the doctors - who really seen to care about their patients.. And my knees also improved as they had taken out some of the inflammation who was inside the knees - and put in some medication by syringe - It was almost as a lot of pressure was coming out of the knees - and the medication they put in at least did some for the pain....

After a while they managed to get me up of the bed - first I was in a wheelchair - not able to walk at all - but after a few days as I progressed I was able to walk small distances - to the toilet - and even out in the hall sometimes - of course with help of a "preachers chair" and so one.. But after a few days I was even able to not do that, I was able to walk around with crutches - and after 3 weeks I have recovered enough to get home again.. I'm still on some medication but I am at least back home....

I'm not sure what it all would have cost me, if I had been in the US, but I fear I would have broken the bank just a few days out of the 3 weeks I was in hospital.. Thanks to Universal Health Care laws in Norway I was not broke - and I got my heath back.. I'm on the "recovering" side of my illness - and I guess I would have some fycio for my knees - and for getting rid of the crutches I must go with at the moment (not easy if you want a cop of tea!) And for the medication I had to get from the pharmacy - I paid 69 nkr for 5 types of medication... (it was on something called "blue receipt" and therefore the State take most of the cost as the medication else would have been horrible expensive for me)

This is just my experience with universal health care - I got the medical help I needed - and was given the care I was in need of having when I was sick - I am not trying to glorify or to tell how great it is - I'm just trying to explain what Universal Health Care can do when you are sick.. And it is "free" of charge - no great bill waiting when I got home - no ten of thousands of NKR in debt and so one.. But then again in Norway we do pay taxes according - and our tax brackets is little more steep than it is in the US I guess....


Well, this is my history, and my latest experience with universal health care in Norway - I hope one day, that even the mighty US can give their people a universal health care system where at least people is given a possibility to be well, without broke the bank...

Diclotican

[Squinch]

1. Thank you. And your grammar and spelling are better than that of many posters.

[KG]

2. Because Obama! the US has come up with a 'uniquely american' solution.

we're all forced to buy private health 'insurance', as if insurance companies give a shit about providing health care.

this is sposed to lead to universal/single payer health care, but nobody's been able to explain to me how that happens.

[Nye Bevan]

9. Social Security = we're all forced to pay into a retirement security

and disability insurance program;

Medicare = we're all forced to pay into a system to fund health care after age 65;

Fire departments = we're all forced to pay local taxes which fund firehouses and firefighters who will rush to save us if our house catches fire;

Obamacare = we're all forced to carry health insurance which provides quality coverage at an affordable cost regardless of any pre-existing conditions.

Yes, the actual mechanics of Obamacare are not as simple and clean as the other examples, but the effect is essentially the same, and it was a stunning achievement given the political realities.

[KG]

12. quality coverage at an affordable cost

[Nye Bevan]

16. Honest question: why the hilarity?

Are you unfamiliar with the premium subsidies that will be available for policies bought on the exchanges? Or the benefit and coverage requirements for policies that begin on Jan 1?

[KG]

18. please. ACA is nothing even remotely like SS or fire depts.

private insurance cos exist to make money, proving services is secondary.

[Nye Bevan]

22. Their profits are regulated, the premiums have to be approved,

and the policies are standardized. No "bare bones" coverage will be allowed.

Can you at least agree that the ACA is a huge improvement over the previous system?

[bvar22]

99. You mean, Their Profits are NOW Guaranteed!

Thanks!

Medical Bankruptcy, a term unknown in civilized countries,
will STILL be Big Business here in the USA
thanks to the "Uniquely American Solution".

[Nye Bevan]

131. Well, before the ACA they could politely turn down a cancer patient who applied for insurance.

Under the ACA they are required to sell a policy to anyone who wants one. If someone who is getting chemotherapy costing $15,000 per month applies for a $300 per month policy, the insurance company has to suck it up and pay for the chemo.

[bvar22]

145. But NOW, thanks to the ACA, RICH People who can aford the pricy "Buy In"...

...for these policies can do so,
but us Working Class Po'Folk can STILL be turned away because of a different Pre-Existing Condition,
one of NOT having the hundreds of dollars/month in disposable income necessary to BUY these policies.

Thank a bunch!

[Nye Bevan]

150. I guess you're not familiar with the ACA premium subsidies (nt)

[Humanist_Activist]

177. That only applies to those who qualify to go on the exchanges...

if the plan offered by your employer or union is "good enough" then you don't qualify for subsidies.

[dflprincess]

239. There are income limits to who qualifies for a subsidy.

A single person with an adjusted gross income of $46,000 qualifies for no subsidy. --- And that income limit is the same whether you live in New York City or Rapid City. It does not take into account any other expenses - you know, luxuries like housing and utiliies.

Also, there are plans in the exchanges that allow for deductibles of just over $6K annually (for a single person). There is nothing in the ACA that guarantees access to healthcare, it only requires you buy insurance.

The whole thing is nothing but a transfer of billions in public and private money into the pockets of the very crooks who have been cheating us for years.

[Nye Bevan]

242. One thing to bear in mind is that preventive care is free, regardless of the deductible.

So even if you haven't met your deductible, under Obamacare the following are all free (no copay and no coinsurance):

1.Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm one-time screening for men of specified ages who have ever smoked
2.Alcohol Misuse screening and counseling
3.Aspirin use to prevent cardiovascular disease for men and women of certain ages
4.Blood Pressure screening for all adults
5.Cholesterol screening for adults of certain ages or at higher risk
6.Colorectal Cancer screening for adults over 50
7.Depression screening for adults
8.Diabetes (Type 2) screening for adults with high blood pressure
9.Diet counseling for adults at higher risk for chronic disease
10.HIV screening for everyone ages 15 to 65, and other ages at increased risk
11.Immunization vaccines for adults--doses, recommended ages, and recommended populations vary:
•Hepatitis A
•Hepatitis B
•Herpes Zoster
•Human Papillomavirus
•Influenza (Flu Shot)
•Measles, Mumps, Rubella
•Meningococcal
•Pneumococcal
•Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis
•Varicella

12.Obesity screening and counseling for all adults
13.Sexually Transmitted Infection (STI) prevention counseling for adults at higher risk
14.Syphilis screening for all adults at higher risk
15.Tobacco Use screening for all adults and cessation interventions for tobacco users

for women:

1.Anemia screening on a routine basis for pregnant women
2.Breast Cancer Genetic Test Counseling (BRCA) for women at higher risk for breast cancer
3.Breast Cancer Mammography screenings every 1 to 2 years for women over 40
4.Breast Cancer Chemoprevention counseling for women at higher risk
5.Breastfeeding comprehensive support and counseling from trained providers, and access to breastfeeding supplies, for pregnant and nursing women
6.Cervical Cancer screening for sexually active women
7.Chlamydia Infection screening for younger women and other women at higher risk
8.Contraception: Food and Drug Administration-approved contraceptive methods, sterilization procedures, and patient education and counseling, as prescribed by a health care provider for women with reproductive capacity (not including abortifacient drugs). This does not apply to health plans sponsored by certain exempt “religious employers.”
9.Domestic and interpersonal violence screening and counseling for all women
10.Folic Acid supplements for women who may become pregnant
11.Gestational diabetes screening for women 24 to 28 weeks pregnant and those at high risk of developing gestational diabetes
12.Gonorrhea screening for all women at higher risk
13.Hepatitis B screening for pregnant women at their first prenatal visit
14.HIV screening and counseling for sexually active women
15.Human Papillomavirus (HPV) DNA Test every 3 years for women with normal cytology results who are 30 or older
16.Osteoporosis screening for women over age 60 depending on risk factors
17.Rh Incompatibility screening for all pregnant women and follow-up testing for women at higher risk
18.Sexually Transmitted Infections counseling for sexually active women
19.Syphilis screening for all pregnant women or other women at increased risk
20.Tobacco Use screening and interventions for all women, and expanded counseling for pregnant tobacco users
21.Urinary tract or other infection screening for pregnant women
22.Well-woman visits to get recommended services for women under 65

for children:

1.Autism screening for children at 18 and 24 months
2.Behavioral assessments for children at the following ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.
3.Blood Pressure screening for children at the following ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years , 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.
4.Cervical Dysplasia screening for sexually active females
5.Depression screening for adolescents
6.Developmental screening for children under age 3
7.Dyslipidemia screening for children at higher risk of lipid disorders at the following ages: 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.
8.Fluoride Chemoprevention supplements for children without fluoride in their water source
9.Gonorrhea preventive medication for the eyes of all newborns
10.Hearing screening for all newborns
11.Height, Weight and Body Mass Index measurements for children at the following ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.
12.Hematocrit or Hemoglobin screening for children
13.Hemoglobinopathies or sickle cell screening for newborns
14.HIV screening for adolescents at higher risk
15.**Hypothyroidism screening for newborns
16.Immunization vaccines for children from birth to age 18 —doses, recommended ages, and recommended populations vary:
•Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis
•Haemophilus influenzae type b
•Hepatitis A
•Hepatitis B
•Human Papillomavirus
•Inactivated Poliovirus
•Influenza (Flu Shot)
•Measles, Mumps, Rubella
•Meningococcal
•Pneumococcal
•Rotavirus
•Varicella

17. Iron supplements for children ages 6 to 12 months at risk for anemia

18. Lead screening for children at risk of exposure

19.Medical History for all children throughout development at the following ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years , 5 to 10 years , 11 to 14 years , 15 to 17 years.
20.Obesity screening and counseling
21.Oral Health risk assessment for young children Ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years.
22.Phenylketonuria (PKU) screening for this genetic disorder in newborns
23.Sexually Transmitted Infection (STI) prevention counseling and screening for adolescents at higher risk
24.Tuberculin testing for children at higher risk of tuberculosis at the following ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.
25.Vision screening for all children.

see https://www.healthcare.gov/what-are-my-preventive-care-benefits/#part=1

[dflprincess]

252. Preventive care doesn't do you any good if you can't afford any follow up you may need.

A lot of what is covered are screening tests and it can cost several thousand dollars to find out the funny spot on the mammogram is benign. If a person has a policy that requires she spends $6,300 out of pocket before it coughs up a dime, it just might be enough to for her to decide not to bother with the test at all.

[Nye Bevan]

255. In-network lab service on a CT silver plan has a $30 copay.

Copay to see a specialist is $45.

And this applies whether or not you have met the deductible.

[bread_and_roses]

274. Yes -"a transfer of billions in public and private money into the pockets of ...crooks"

Exactly so.

[roamer65]

181. Here's the flexibility that the ACA offers.

You sign up for a plan on the exchange. It is now YOUR plan, not one offered at the whims of your employer. If you lose your job and are unemployed, then you qualify for the subsidy. You can keep your plan even in light of your employment status. If you fall below poverty level and if your state has passed Medicaid expansion, you then can go on Medicaid.

It's not single payor Medicare, but we are getting there.

If your state has not passed Medicaid expansion, start calling your legislators and demand that they pass it.

[Humanist_Activist]

196. As far as I'm aware of, you are disqualified from the exchanges if the plans...

offered by you employer are good enough, so where is the flexibility in that?

[roamer65]

227. A lot of employers are going to drop their plans IMO.

My employer is already sounding like it.

[Ms. Toad]

235. So you would prefer $15,000 a month you can't pay to $300 a month you can't pay?

Or, depending on your income, $15,000 a month over $0 a month?

No, it isn't perfect, but from where I sit either $0 or $300, or somewhere in between is a whole lot better than $15,000.

(Or if you just want to compare premium costs - $0 - $300 is a lot better than $1,500 - $1,800/month (the cost without ACA in a high risk plan IF you are lucky enough to live in a state with guaranteed issue or a high risk pool which will issue any plan at all for an 18-20 year old with a pre-existing chronic illness)

[bvar22]

282. If one doesn NOT have the the $300/month in disposable income,

and the a big part of America's Working Class do NOT have $300/month,
then it doesn't matter if it costs $300/month or $3Million/month.

[Ms. Toad]

283. Correct - but the same was true (and worse)

before the ACA, because the unaffordable cost before ACA was (just for premiums $1,500-$1800 for people with pre-existing conditions).

The ACA has not created the lack of access to health care for the poor and working classs - even though there is just a portion of the working class and a portion of the poor (in states which are refusing to expand Medicaid) for which it has not made it better. But there is a much larger body of poor and working class for whom it is making health care accessible for the first time ever.

My point is - don't blame the ACA for not completely healing a body (the health care system), which has been broken by decades of trucks running over it (the nearly completely unregulated insurance system). The ACA at least provides crossing guards and emergency care. And that's a lot better than continuing to send trucks through the intersection and ignoring the broken and bleeding body they are running over.

[bread_and_roses]

273. exactly (n/t)

[RC]

27. Because we have been sold a bill of goods.

Health insurance is not health care. Obamacare is more health insurance.
The parasitic "Your Money, or Your Life" middlemen health insurance companies are still between you and your doctor. Only now the Republican State Governments are there also. How is this in any way closer to Single Payer, or universal coverage? It is not, it is a way to stave off Single Payer for much longer. already the are delaying implementing parts of Obamacare. It will get worse as time goes by and other parts of this new health insurance plan are supposed to kick in.
Just because more people have coverage, it does not follow that more people will have more or better health care.

[Nye Bevan]

32. If you really don't understand how "more coverage" leads to "better health care"

there is really no point in continuing this debate. There has been a huge amount of anti-ACA propaganda, and it is sad to see even some DUers having a totally irrational hatred of Obama's signature achievement.

Have a good day.

[RC]

38. Coverage is not health care.

Obamacare is just more health Insurance.
What is needed in this country is more and better health care. Instead of your health insurance premium money going for the overhead of the private health insurance companies, stock options and CEO pay and bonuses. Instead use that money for more and better Universal health care instead. You know like most of the rest of the world already has? More private insurance is not the real answer to the terrible lack of health care for so many in this country. Health Insurance, is in itself, a blight on this country.

[KG]

100. see, it always goes back to hating obama.

ACA must be good Because Obama! if you object, it can only because of your irrational hate of obama.

[RC]

118. Yep, that hate cause me to enthusiastically vote for him the first time & reluctantly the 2nd time.

Ya got me.

His subsequent actions as President has nothing to do with it.

[Unknown Beatle]

199. One part of Obamacare...

Obamacare says that companies must spend at least 80% of premiums on providing actual medical services. If they spent it on advertising or executive salaries, they have to pay the excess back to policy-holders.

[bvar22]

208. Guaranteed PROFITS for Corporations that are SUPPOSED....

...to be competing for your business.

Do you really believe that the 5 members of the US Health Insurance Cartel are going to try and undercut each other on The Exchange when they each have a MANDATED profit?

I wish I could own a business where my PROFIT was Mandated by LAW
and the IRS was my "hammer" to use against those who don't PAY UP!

The Health Insurance Cartel:

*Manufactures NO product

*Keeps NO Inventory

*Provides NO Useful Service

*Creates NO Value Added Wealth

and NOW, thanks to the "Uniquely American Solution",
has a MANDATED Profit and the IRS as their Collection Agency!

Thats YOUR money!

[dionysus]

238. per Bernie there were < 10 votes in the senate for single payer, it;s sad, but bark up a

different tree in this case

[RC]

244. Single Payer wasn't even allowed on the table.

The public Option wasn't even tolerated very well. Private insurance, all the time, is the name of the game!
The health insurance lobbyist have too much money. They bought the politicians off for nothing other than private health insurance.

[dionysus]

293. i know.we're not really disageeing. it wasn't on the table because it didn't have support even in

the dem senate. and you are correct, it's because of the lobbyists.

[adieu]

111. It's a first step

I agree that the current ACA is just a patchwork of negotiated compromises to suit the insurers more than the general public. But it's a first step. From here, we can say, "This part is better than before. That part stayed the same. That part became worse." From that, we now have a vector on the direction to take. Continue on the parts that are better than before, with slight tweaks to make them even better. Correct and improve on the parts that have not improved or actually got worse.

Even with a stupid plan, it was important to have a health care plan in place, just so we know what directions to take.

If you're lost in the woods, you need to move in one direction. If that's the wrong direction, you know not to continue in that direction and move in another one. Staying still gets you nowhere and that's what it was with the health care plans of the US for probably two or three generations.

[Nye Bevan]

130. President Obama had 60 Democrats in the Senate and a Democratic House.

It was a once in a generation opportunity to move the system in the right direction, and he pulled it off.

[SugarShack]

63. You still choose plan A B or C, depending what you can afford. Could you afford 30% of hospital care

Could this person in Norway afford 10- 20 -30% of his bill? Our's is NOT universal. It's still who can afford it.

And, Im in Florida, where our state set up NOTHING.

[Nye Bevan]

67. In CT, under an Obamacare Silver plan, for a hospital stay,

you will pay a copay of $500 per day, but with a maximum of $2000 per admission.

See http://ct.gov/hix/lib/hix/Exhibit_1_-_Silver_70_Grid.pdf

Without the ACA, someone who cannot get insurance could easily be billed tens of thousands of dollars for a hospital stay.

And you will be able to buy ACA plans in FL.

[Kermitt Gribble]

179. $500 per day copay?

You say that like $500 per day is spare change.

[Nye Bevan]

185. I'm not sure how I said it "like it is spare change".

For many people yes, $500 per day is a lot of money, and even with Obamacare a hospital stay is an unpleasant financial shock. But it is much better than losing your house because of a $100,000 bill (which is easy to run up without insurance). And it's not like the hospital will insist on full payment up front; any hospital will be amenable to a reasonable payment plan.

[Humanist_Activist]

203. I thought the annual out of pocket limits and lifetime limits have been suspended for a year...

so while you only pay that 500 dollars a night stay at the hospital, the end bill can be many times larger than 2 or 3 thousand dollars. By the way, why are you comparing gold plans to the reality that most people can only afford bronze? Which is supposed to have a limit of 6 thousand dollars or so?

ON EDIT: I don't see how this will prevent people from losing their homes, even with the limits in place. A debt is a debt, and if you can't pay, they will liquidate all your assets to pay it, even if they sell them for pennies on a dollar.

[Humanist_Activist]

210. You have to meet the deductible first, which means a maximum of 5000 dollars for first admission...

2000 dollars for every admission that calendar year, still better than no insurance, but sucks for those who can't afford that either.

Also, I really want to know how chronic care is subsidized on these plans, but the max out of pocket would be almost half of our yearly income under a family plan, a quarter if it only was an individual plan that covered one of us(assuming the other remains uninsured).

First things first, in probably a couple of months, we would have matched the deductibles for the prescription drug coverage, which is separate from medical. After that, month to month, we are looking at an additional, assuming all medications are generic, at least 100 dollars, most likely significantly more(depends on formulary of plan, I don't see that here), could be as high as 250 dollars a month for prescription drugs, AFTER deductible is met, on top of the premiums and deductibles. And again, that's not calculating premiums into the cost, which will probably double or triple it a month.

[Nye Bevan]

212. I'm pretty sure that if you stay in network it's only the copay.

Just like when you go to see your doctor, it will only be $20 (or whatever the copay is) even if you have not met your deductible.

But this is all new and it is of course possible I am wrong. If you have a link on this I would be interested to see it.

BTW it sounds like in your situation you would definitely want a gold plan rather than silver. Or platinum if one is offered in your state (it isn't in CT).

[Humanist_Activist]

215. Follow the asterisks in your posts about the plan information you are given...

Last edited Mon Sep 16, 2013, 02:41 PM - Edit history (1)

If you stay in an in-network hospital, you have to pay the in-network deduct first, only then does the 500 dollar a day copay to a max of 2000 dollars kick in, 2000 + 3000 equals 5000 and its below the 6250 out of pocket max.

Honestly, we can barely afford the premiums for bronze, or maybe silver plans(going by current premium pricing in other states, won't know here until October 1), what makes you think we could ever get gold or platinum?

And again, don't talk about subsidies, there are none, hell the plan at my work now has a 2000 deductible for individual, 40% copay on everything, and maximum out of pocket of over 10,000 dollars, and I can't even afford that premium. The plan sucks so bad, that the owner of the company was fuming and the person responsible for signing us up for the year got fired. But have to wait for contract to be up before anything changes.

The only saving grace is that, if the Medicaid expansion goes through, I may qualify for it, barely. Not sure yet, not till October.

[Ms. Toad]

284. Remember - there is an out of pocket maximum per year.

The cap is $6250 - not chump change, but once you hit it you are done with medical expenses for the year (other than premiums).

That's not much comfort to people like my daughter, who hit that maximum by March each and every year - but does put a stop to the annual costs.

[Humanist_Activist]

288. That's at least 3 months pay, combined income, I guess we aren't supposed to pay for rent or food.

I guess people with chronic conditions are screwed.

[Ms. Toad]

291. They are less screwed than before the ACA

and if $6,000 is 3 months pay you are almost certainly eligible both for premium subsidies and cost sharing which will reduce your out of pocket expenses even further.

Try comparing your costs as of January 1 to what they are today, rather than kicking the step forward in the teeth because it isn't a 100% solution for everyone. It is a significant improvement for millions.

[Humanist_Activist]

292. No, I don't qualify for subsidies or cost sharing, my work offers insurance...

crappier than 6,000 dollars a year maximum out of pocket.

If subsidies were based on income level alone, then you would have an argument, but it isn't.

[Ms. Toad]

294. Well - if your insurance is crappy enough

you may be eligible for a tax credit against the premium, or a reduction in cost sharing.

Plan designs meeting the following specifications are proposed as safe harbors for determining MV if the plans cover all of the benefits included in the MV calculator:

A plan with a $3,500 integrated medical and drug deductible, 80 percent plan cost-sharing, and a $6,000 maximum out-of-pocket limit for employee cost-sharing.

A plan with a $4,500 integrated medical and drug deductible, 70 percent plan cost-sharing, a $6,400 maximum out-of-pocket limit, and a $500 employer contribution to an HSA.

A plan with a $3,500 medical deductible, $0 drug deductible, 60 percent plan medical expense cost-sharing, 75 percent plan drug cost-sharing, a $6,400 maximum out-of-pocket limit, and drug co-pays of $10/$20/$50 for the first, second and third prescription drug tiers, with 75 percent coinsurance for specialty drugs.

You should receive a form OMB No. 1210-0149 from your employer which will let you know if you are eligible for any subsidies (or if you can choose to skip it and go directly to the marketplace because your plan is so crappy).

But even if you are stuck with your crappy plan - you are still in the same position you were in before the ACA, which is better off than a lot of people who have not had access to health care at all. The ACA doesn't fix everything, but it does make health care accessible to millions more than could access it before - whether or not you are eligible for a tax credit against either premiums or cost sharing because your plan is so crappy.

[bread_and_roses]

275. ah yes: Institutionalized inequality - Platinum people and Bronze people

and we are supposed to cheer? I don't think so.

[Why Syzygy]

258. Unless you're in a union...

then you get bupkus.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/aug/21/mike-lee/sen-lee-says-union-call-obamacare-bad-workers/

[tabasco]

19. Tell us why you think expanded Medicaid and subsidies up to 400% of FPL

are not making health insurance more affordable for Americans

Your smilie is unconvincing. You seem rather uninformed.

[BuelahWitch]

91. Not everyone is getting expanded medicaid

Kansas, for one, is not, and other Red states have chosen not to expend either.

[bread_and_roses]

272. +++++++++++++ (n/t)

[progressoid]

30. And SS, disablity, Fire departments are all for-profit too!

I was just reading about how the CEO of our local Fire Department took home a 8.3 million dollar bonus last year.

[leftstreet]

34. +1

Exactly!

[edhopper]

43. You really don't see the difference

between those public, government programs and the for profit health insurance industry?

When was the last time you had to use an in-network Fire Dept. or pay a co-pay for putting a fire out?

Medicare administration costs 3% to 6%. Private insurance now locked in at no more than 20%.

The effect is vastly different when it comes to our costs.

[Jerry442]

52. Bravo!!

We're surrounded by government programs we all pay into collectively one way or another. The ones that work well turn invisible to conservatives. None of them are perfect, but nearly all of them are far superior to market based alternatives. Imagine paying the owner of a privately-owned city street a toll every time you wanted to run out for a loaf of bread.

Implementing universal healthcare will have it's full share of bumps in the road, but it's time we told the wingnuts who equate it with selling our souls to Satan to STFU.

[Nye Bevan]

72. Privately-owned toll roads? What a ridiculous and unthinkable idea!

Oh, wait.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United_States

[pangaia]

80. I think the most important sentence

in your post is--"The ones that work well turn invisible to conservatives."

EXACTLY ! That's why so many stupid, blind, ignorant teabaggers were running around protesting 'socialism' and yelling "Keep your hands off my Medicare" at the same time.
Jeeshhh...

[LWolf]

53. Er...no. As usual.

Social Security, Medicare, Fire departments...they are not private, for-profit enterprises. They are public services.

Private, for-profit "health" insurance is not a public service.

They are nothing close to the same.

[Nye Bevan]

61. Different implementation with essentially the same outcome.

Without keeping the insurance companies in the system, no bill at all would have passed. And surely you agree that the ACA is vastly preferable to no reforms at all?

[leftstreet]

68. Insurance reforms are welcome. Mandated purchase, NOT

There's no reason the ACA couldn't have been sold as a way to reform and regulate insurance companies

Mandating people purchase a product from a for-profit corporation - bullshit

[LWolf]

79. Private, for profit insurance

is not the same as a national health care plan. They have 2 different purposes/goals.

The purpose of private health insurance is to make money for insurance companies and their share holders.

The purpose of a national public service is to provide service to the public, paid for through taxes. It's not about profit, it's about people getting service.

I disagree that a health plan couldn't be passed without insurance companies. It wouldn't be easy and it wouldn't be fast, but it WOULD happen eventually if it were:

1. Allowed on the table to begin with.
2. Kept on the table.
3. Made a focus, and brought up repeatedly; kept on the front page of the national consciousness and at the top of the national conversation.

The ACA? I think it's the wrong kind of reform. I think any reform that is founded on privatization and profit will not lead to the right kind of reform, focused on public service. I think it actually holds back the kind of reform the nation actually needs.

If some people get more care under the ACA, I'm glad. The fact is, though, that many people will not be better off at all. Just because the ACA has the word "affordable" in its title, that doesn't mean that the insurance costs through the new exchanges are actually affordable in people's budgets, or that having insurance will lead to actual care.

Neither of my adult sons can afford the premiums through the exchange, let alone the deductibles and co-pays after that. They remain uninsured.

[tiredtoo]

142. Interesting

"Neither of my adult sons can afford the premiums through the exchange, let alone the deductibles and co-pays after that. They remain uninsured. "
Would be interesting what you consider affordable for your adult sons? Many will qualify for subsidized coverage and/or Medicaid, based on their income.
And if they choose to remain uninsured they will be paying a penalty in income taxes. That is assuming they file and pay taxes.

[LWolf]

152. What do *I* consider affordable?

They should still be able to afford rent, food, utilities, clothing, and transportation after paying premiums and deductibles. They should not have to use credit they can't afford to pay back to pay deductibles.

They are already aware of what they qualify for, or not, and what the consequences of remaining uninsured will be. So am I. None of us need you to "educate" us about it.

What will they do when the law FORCES them to pay for insurance that they can't afford, let alone afford to use?

I don't know. And yes. They file and pay taxes. I guess it depends on which will cost them less: the penalty or the insurance they can't afford to use.

[tiredtoo]

200. Well,

I know nothing of their personal finances and had no intention of educating you or anyone else about the affordable care act. Your original post sounded to me like something the Republicans have been saying and that is why i posted my comments.
If they do not get insurance, who is going to pay for their health care if they should suffer from a serious injury?

Not sure what state you live in but, in Michigan we are "FORCED" to have automobile insurance. I have not had a ticket or been involved in and accident in 40 years or more why should i have to pay for this insurance?

[Fumesucker]

216. The state of Michigan forces you to own a car and keep it on the road?

I learn new things on DU every day.

[tiredtoo]

221. not the last that i heard

however, if i do own a car and keep it on the road, i am forced to have insurance. Much like no laws enforce me to stay healthy but, if i don't want to have others pay my medical bills i will maintain my own insurance to assist me in paying.

[DebJ]

168. I didn't think any of the insurance exchanges were as yet all settled in

and with pricing not still subject to change. What state are you sons looking at coverage in?

[LWolf]

172. One in CA. One in OR. nt

[Nye Bevan]

232. Do you remember the dynamics of the House and Senate when the ACA passed?

The Democrats controlled the House and had 60 votes in the Senate. But then Ted Kennedy died and Scott Brown was elected in MA, so the filibuster-proof Senate majority was just about to disappear.

The bill as it is passed by the skin of its teeth. Pushing for more would have resulted in nothing happening. The can would have been kicked down the road for God knows how many years; when do you think the Democrats will again have 60 Senate votes and control the House?

[LWolf]

295. "Pushing for more."

What a crock of shit.

There's a huge difference between allowing single payer on the table and "pushing for more."

Private insurers were allowed at that table and exerted considerable influence. Their opposition was excluded. Allowed no voice at all.

It's impossible to say what kind of bill might have come out of that committee if all voices and options had been included, and whether or not it would have passed.

It's impossible to say because it didn't happen, and any speculation is just that.

[enlightenment]

78. Quality coverage?

Prove it.

[Nye Bevan]

81. OK:

http://www.ct.gov/hix/lib/hix/Gold_Grid_8.30.13.pdf

And bear in mind that this is a plan that anyone can buy, regardless of their health history.

[enlightenment]

107. Bully for Connecticut.

You made a sweeping statement about Obamacare - apply it to all the states and all the plans. Your single state analysis is irrelevant in that regard.

Since you insist on equating cost to quality, however, let's take a look at what you posted and turn it into actual dollars instead of slap-happy percentages.

AFTER the individual has paid their monthly premium, they get to figure out what their health "care" is going to cost them.

Let's go with best case scenario:
A single adult, age 38, making $19000 a year ($1583 per month before taxes or around $1200 after). According to the CT exchange webpage they will pay $74 per month for their premium (subsidized at 80%)

In network cost is best scenario, so everything until they reach $1000 dollars is on their head, and their co-pays don't apply toward the deductible. Out of pocket maximum is $3000.

So, it's September, 2014. That single adult under 40 trips down some steps, twists an ankle and hits their head. This is their first claim because they're pretty healthy.

Minimal costs, based on the chart (not calculating other "charges" the hospital will apply):

Ambulance? WooT! It's free! (or is it? Hard to tell from that form)
They are seen in the ER - that's $150 co-pay (so nothing off the deductible) = $150
They require an MRI - that's $75 co-pay (nothing off the deductible) = $75
They are diagnosed with some damage to the ankle and a suspicion of concussion: admitted for two days at $500 co-pay per day (nothing off the deductible) = $1000

They are sent home with two prescriptions, some durable equipment (crutches) and instructions to go to three weeks of physical therapy - twice a week:
That's $10 co-pay for the generic drugs (which doesn't apply to the Prescription drug deductible) = $20
Crutches? 30% of the co-insurance. You can get a cheap pair at Walgreens for $45, so let's guess = $12
PT? Six visits at $20 co-pay (do I need to repeat the part where co-pays don't apply to deductibles?) = $120

Fairly uncomplicated injury accident that will cost this single adult who is being heavily subsidized but has still paid (by September 2014) $666 for their premium . . . $1377.

------------------------
Is that cheaper than having no coverage? Probably - but as far as the single adult under 40 is concerned, what it amounts to is a month's salary, which may or may not feel like an improvement. They also know that they could still pay an additional $1633 dollars before their "insurance" really starts to cover them. And they STILL haven't covered their deductibles.

And that isn't even addressing quality of care, which is not something that you can determine from a chart.

[Nye Bevan]

117. $1377 all-inclusive for a 2 night hospital stay, the doctors,

the prescriptions, the crutches, and the follow-up care, is vastly cheaper than what you would pay without insurance (my guess is that it would be in the tens of thousands).

So no, it's not an ideal scenario, but it is much, much better than the alternative. A bill for $1377 is not pleasant, but will likely not cause bankruptcy. Unfortunate incidents like a car needing expensive repairs, a furnace needing to be replaced, expensive roof repairs, and so on, are always a risk, but the key is that the costs are reasonable and manageable.

And yes, the ambulance is free (that's what "$0" means) and while I agree with your calculations, it's not exactly true that "until they reach $1000 everything is on their head". That's because preventive care (check-ups, immunizations, colonoscopies, mammograms, etc.) is all free regardless of whether the deductible has been met.

[enlightenment]

119. I'm delighted you're pleased with the CT plan.

It still doesn't answer my original question.

Have a good day.

[Nye Bevan]

123. Sorry, but I don't have time to do that for all 50 states (nt)

[DebJ]

170. Don't forget that if you have NO insurance, every service will cost you double, triple, or more

because insurance companies negotiate prices down.

I'm not saying I like this system by any means...just that this is the actual cost comparison that applies these days.

[Humanist_Activist]

165. My fiancee takes about 10 medications a month, for a chronic condition...

that's over 100 dollars a month, not counting premiums, doctor visits, etc. when using the gold plan you are mentioning. May not seem like much, but on her income, that is a LOT, almost 10% of her costs, just for the medication copays, and that's a gold plan? Not to mention the deductibles and such.

You are talking about a gold plan, with higher premiums, and lower copays, correct?

Granted, in fairness, in our state, she qualifies for Medicaid due to income level, so she is covered, me, not so much, I make about as much as she takes in in disability, and I can't afford the premiums on a gold plan, and surely can't use a bronze plan, so where does that leave me?

ON EDIT: I should clarify, I take home about 200-300 dollars more than her a month.

[Nye Bevan]

182. Have you checked what subsidy you would be entitled to?

http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

[Humanist_Activist]

184. None, my employer offers a bronze level plan...

that barely squeaks under the 9.5% limit for premiums.

If my employer didn't offer any plan, I would get an almost 50% cut in premiums, along with assistance for copays and deductibles.

[Nye Bevan]

187. So you would be better off if your employer offered no insurance.

That is certainly frustrating.

[Humanist_Activist]

188. Yes, though I heard they are renegotiating, but we won't know squat till December...

and then gotta sign up a couple weeks before that, and because my state didn't set up exchanges, we won't know anything there until October at the earliest.

[Nye Bevan]

189. OK, well the best of luck with that (nt)

[Humanist_Activist]

201. Well, to be honest, I'm trying to switch jobs before that, but it really is going to depend on...

what is, or isn't, offered by prospective employers and/or Unions as far as insurance is concerned, I'm also trying to avoid a paycut, though I guess, if I had to choose between subsidized healthcare or good pay, the healthcare will win out.

[delrem]

241. I wouldn't trade my Canadian plan for anything remotely like that.

But if it looks good to you, then I expect you'll enjoy it.

[Nye Bevan]

245. "57% of Canadians reported waiting 30 days (4 weeks) or more to see a specialist".

Health Canada, a federal department, publishes a series of surveys of the health care system in Canada based on Canadians' first-hand experiences of the health care system.[53]

Although life-threatening cases are dealt with immediately, some services needed are non-urgent and patients are seen at the next-available appointment in their local chosen facility.

The median wait time in Canada to see a special physician is a little over four weeks with 89.5% waiting fewer than 90 days.[53]

The median wait time for diagnostic services such as MRI and CAT scans [54] is two weeks with 86.4% waiting fewer than 90 days.[53]

The median wait time for surgery is four weeks with 82.2% waiting fewer than 90 days.[53]

Another study by the Commonwealth Fund found that 57% of Canadians reported waiting 30 days (4 weeks) or more to see a specialist,[page needed] broadly in line with the current official statistics. A quarter (24%) of all Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room.[55][page needed]

Dr. Brian Day was once quoted as saying "This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two-to-three years."[56] Day gave no source for his two to three years claim. The Canadian Health Coalition has responded succinctly to Day's claims, pointing out that "access to veterinary care for animals is based on ability to pay. Dogs are put down if their owners can’t pay. Access to care should not be based on ability to pay." [57] Regional administrations of Medicare across Canada publish their own wait time data on the internet. For instance, in British Columbia the wait time for a hip replacement is currently a little under ten weeks.[58] The CHC is one of many groups across Canada calling for increased provincial and federal funding for medicare and an end to provincial funding cuts as solutions to unacceptable wait times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

Your system has lower deductibles and copays, but it seems that the wait times can be longer than we are used to in the US. Personally I think that is a sensible trade-off but it is one more obstacle for such a system to be introduced here.

[delrem]

249. I don't see anything wrong with a wait time to see specialists in non-life-threatening

situations. My usual wait-time is 30 days, and considering the level of service that I get, I don't find this troublesome (in fact, I find it almost miraculous).

Of course if one is born to a culture that expects to lay $$ on the counter and get instant McMac service, any wait would be unwelcome. For such people there will always be heavily $$ dependent choices giving instant gratification. However, in my opinion and in the opinion of everyone I know, pandering to such needs for instant gratification shouldn't be the primary motivation of our Canadian Health Plan. This plan is 100% of and for the people in general, not just for a puling "elite", and both ethical and economic decisions have to be kept in mind. In that context the puling "elite" don't fare well.

For example, some puling rich bastard finds it offensive to wait until a homeless wretch gets served first. Doesn't want to lay on the same hospital gurney. Well, fuck the puling rich bastard is what most say. Would a Canadian Health Plan be able to survive the introduction of a "fast track method" for the rich, catered to by specialists who serve only the rich? I don't think so. Besides, the rich hire their own personal doctors so it isn't even required.

So the Canadian Health Plan isn't designed to satisfy a self-described "elite" who demand priority. Tough.
In return for denying our enslavement to such an elite we acquire things like "community health clinics" where your non-elite Canadian receives services of multiple disciplines, where a Doctor prescribing medications can refer a patient to life-saving seminars and focus groups intended to help patients bridge life-style gaps, while at the same time providing a sense of a community home.

[Nye Bevan]

251. My understanding is that many rich bastards come to the US for health care

when they need it.

But I agree with you. I have no problem with longer wait times for non-urgent care as a trade-off for true universal health care. I am just pointing out that it does raise an additional political obstacle.

[delrem]

257. Of course they do!

Even some not-so-rich bastards. After all, the US is foremost in technology.
Coupled with McMac service given $$ down.

But such a McMac private service should be entirely private, and not part of any single-payer government regulated (with auditors required to submit reports to the public) health care plan. For obvious reasons.

Canadian news is lightly peppered with stories of Canadians requiring health care services only available elsewhere (not only in the US). I don't think Canada has a totally definite one-size-fits-all definition of what to do in every such case. I don't see how such a definition could be formulated.

Likewise I don't see how to formulate a definition of how to treat foreign nationals, without insurance, who suddenly rack up $1,000,000+ of costs. I do believe Canada has accepted cases where, after several $millions$ of costs, a patient cannot return to their home country because they aren't insured, and would die.

[mimi85]

254. I had to wait FIVE

weeks to see an oncologist. And that's in California.

[demwing]

82. But of your examples, Obamacare is the only one

that is centered on private insurance mandates, not public programs

[Nye Bevan]

87. Again, that was the only way to get a bill passed.

While the implementation is not the way many people would want it, the outcome is much, much closer to the ideal than the existing system.

Surely you agree that passing the ACA was better than passing nothing?

[demwing]

98. Honestly, I'm not sure I do agree

I have to see the program fully implemented to answer your question.

At the moment, I'm cautiously optimistic.

[delrem]

243. It is *not* closer to the "ideal" (single payer gov't overseen) plan.

It is nothing more than a romney/obama/whoever-care package, a package that has *no* connection with any "ideal" as understood by countries who're busy shoring up and streamlining their (far from ideal) single-payer systems. These are two different economic concepts having no points in common.

[Nye Bevan]

248. So why did Paul Krugman describe Obamacare as "an approximation of a single payer system"?

The Affordable Care Act, aka Obamacare, is a policy Rube Goldberg device — instead of doing the simple, obvious thing, which would just be to insure everyone, it basically relies on a combination of regulations and subsidies to rope, coddle, and nudge us into a rough approximation of a single-payer system. There were reasons for this, of course, mainly political: a complete displacement of the existing system would have been both too destructive of powerful interests and too radical for voters.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/krugman/2013/05/24/obamacare-will-be-a-debacle-for-republicans/

And this is a Nobel Prize-winner writing this.

[delrem]

250. He's wrong.

[eridani]

231. SocSec, Medicare and fire departments are GOVERNMENT programs

They do not require us to support the bottom lines of private for-profit corporations.

[rurallib]

3. off to the greatest page for you

Thank you so much for sharing.

[Diclotican]

10. rurallib

rurallib

Your welcome

Diclotican

[Stargazer99]

4. The US let my daughter die because of money

She was $8 in income over the allowed limit to get medical help from the state of Washington
She died frome a condition that would have not been lethal if she had medical care
A fifteen year old daughter lost her mother but apparently this nation mouths about the value of life
but that is all it is...talk
I hear this constant whine about taxes, so apparently killing their citizens is monetary collateral, so much
for the conservative Republican "value of life". It only has value if you have enough money otherwise, die

[Diclotican]

8. Stargazer99

Stargazer99

I'm very sorry about your daughter - money should not be the issue when you are in bad health - the most important thing should be to get her well - even if he was "over the limit" for getting medical help from the State of Washington. I have no word who can give you some comfort for your sorrow and your loss - but at least I can say that I'm very sorry for your loss.. It most have been devastating to know your daughter could have been saved - if she had been given the right medical care.

I am at least, very gratefully that I live in a country, where we have universal health care - it is not perfect - but if you are really sick, you will get the help you need - as I did when I really sick a mount ago...

Diclotican

[jwirr]

60. Very sorry about your daughter. You hit the real problem we are having right now square on the head

because we do not have a safety net that answers the needs of those who fall through the cracks. Since we do not have a system that provides health care to all regardless of income such as they do in many EU countries we need a cutoff point and a safety net that recognizes that this is not working for the just over the limit patients. There needs to be some way to identify persons like her who are very sick.

Here in MN there is something called a spenddown that takes into account of the money spent on your present health care services and the amount you paid yourself. When the spenddown is big enough then you are back on assistance. At least I think that is the way it works. But even this system has those who fall through the cracks.

If only we could have gotten the single payer system for true universal care that many of us have worked for.

[Quantess]

116. I am so sorry to hear it.

[OneGrassRoot]

5. Thank you. K&R n/t

[Sienna86]

6. Thanks for relating your experience.

It's hard to imagine what a hospital stay would be like without worrying what your bill or copay is going to be when you get out. That must help a great deal just to be able to focus on healing.

Good luck with your continued recovery!

[Diclotican]

13. Sienna86

Sienna86

It help a lot to not worry about the money - or copay for a hospital stay. To focus of healing yourself as best as you can - with the help of medication and nurses who did their best to help - I'm not saying it was without flaws to short staffed and to much to do - but at least I got the medical attention I was in need of - and the nurses was professional as few.

I'm recovering as best as I can - in the house I can walk with out crutches now - but I have to use it outside of the house and maybe for a while too..And I'm a lot more tired than before - the brain and the body are not on the same page yet - but at least I sleep very sound every night now, tired as I am when I goes to bed...

Diclotican

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. knr

[KG]

11. brings this to mind: how the TV show 'Breaking Bad' plays out in the rest of the civilized world.

[Diclotican]

26. KG

KG

Indeed...

Diclotican

[DLevine]

14. K&R. So many Americans die from lack of healthcare.

I'm glad you live in a civilized country. I wish I did.

[Diclotican]

17. DLevine

DLevine

I'm very gratefully I live in a country - where universal health care are not a issue - even the conservatives in Norway - who by the way will have the next prime minister in Norway is in favor of a universal health care - it is more in the details the left and right have some issues - but in the grand scheme of things - most of our parliament is in agreement about universal health care for everyone - that be rich or poor... (And I guess I'm on the poor side as I am on disability)

I hope, that one day even the US can have the same system as most of europe have - even thought I doubt it will be anytime soon... The ACA or "Obama care" is a step in the right direction - even if it is a very small step in the right direction.. I just hope more progressive presidents now can push for a universal health care for all americans - founded by either the State of the federal government.. I guess the best is to let the federal government do it - as it is shown from what I have read here on DU, many States are fighting back or want to block any way to let "Obama care" succeed at all....

Diclotican

[Quantess]

77. That's right. NOBODY with single payer health care would want the US system.

RWers and leftists alike value the taxpayer funded healthcare system.

[Diclotican]

83. Quantess

Quantess

True - A single payer health care is something I suspect most americans would have loved to have - if they had known the benefits of it from experience - but the sad fact is that many americans do not want to know - or just doesn't know what it really means with a "universal health care" system....

Yeah, you might have to play some more taxes - and with the history of the US for the last 200 odd years I think that would be a hard case to give the american population, that you need to pay into this new universal health care system every mount, but still I suspect that if they are understanding the benefit of universal health care it would not take to much time for them to understand how it will benefit them in the long run

Even for the ones, who never got sick - and possible will never need universal health care for as long as they live.. Everyone "can" get sick, even the ones who live to be 100 year - and have never been at the doctor for anything else than regular check ups now and then..

Diclotican

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Thanks for posting that. I also live in a country with universal health care...

I'm Australian, and my experience was similar to yrs when I had a stroke ten years ago. Lots of scans and tests and MRIs and a bit of physio to get me up and walking again, and I wasn't a cent out of pocket.

I couldn't think of anything more damaging to anyone's recuperation than getting home from hospital and being greeted by a massive hospital bill. I really hope one day soon our friends in the US get a similar universal healthcare system to other countries...

btw, I don't know what the tax rates are like in Norway, but here's the tax rates here. Plus if we're considered high income, we get taxed a medicare levy surcharge of 1.5%

http://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/Individual-income-tax-rates/

Hope you get better soon!

[Diclotican]

23. Violet_Crumble

Violet_Crumble

Thats good to hear, that your experience is similar to my own - universal health care should have been recognized as a human right, and not just something that some country have access too.. I have never understood the concept that some are floating around about privatize all the public utilize - including hospitals and then let everyone fend for them self..

And it most be devastating to say at least - to know when you get out of the hospital - you will be presented with a big bill for medical attention - who should be a part of everyones rights as human... And I hope also that the US one day, in not to distant future - can be given access to the same universal health care we both share. But I guess it cost to be the biggest, meanest military machine in the world... Just think what the US could have been doing if they had slash the Pentagon budget 40 percent - and given the money to found a universal health care system - and to many other things that need to be repaired in the US alone... The Pentagon would still be one of the biggest, meanest military machines in the world - but they maybe had to cut back on all the more exotic weapons they are spending billions on at the moment - Weapons that maybe never will be used....

Diclotican

[DFW]

28. Your Australian rates are cheap compared to what we pay in Germany!

Although the posted top rate is 42% or 43% they heap all kinds of surcharges on so that the effective rate is 50% at best, and it kicks in at about 110,000 euros if not before. My daughter earns about that, and she's already in the 50% bracket.

The Germans do like their health care, although unlike some countries in Europe, there is not a universal health care program included in the tax rate. It is more of a patchwork system specific to your job and/or income. It is also a two-class system. There is second class ("Kassenpatient&quot , which means you are on some kind of large insurance program that picks up most bills, or first class ("privat&quot which means you pay up front and get reimbursed (you hope!) by your insurance provider. A lot of German tax money goes toward propping up Greece and other such "worthy" causes.

I could only wish we had Australia's tax rates (and health care system!) in Germany.

[DebJ]

171. And I believe that in your countries, your employer will even accommodate

a need to stay home sick, without threatening you with job loss.

Not true for most of the slaves over here.

[Diclotican]

175. DebJ

DebJ

Yeah if you is sick - and have to stay home you have the right by law, to be protected against being fired from your employer - In fact until a year your salary would be paid by some government program if your illness is grave enough - it is not perfect but for the most part you will be given a lot of incentives to get well - and get back to job..

Diclotican

[DebJ]

193. Three days can put you in trouble here in many places. A week, maybe.

[Quantess]

20. I'm not moving back to the USA until the health care system is fixed.

I have dual citizenship in the USA and a small european country. I chose to leave the USA partly because the US health care system is terrible, even when you have insurance. Everything is such an incredible hassle.

Edit to add: I'm a very healthy person, so it's not that I need a lot of health care. But when I need health care, the last thing I want to worry about is whether I can afford it.

[Diclotican]

24. Quantess

Quantess

Then I suspect you have to be in Europe for a long time - specially as I doubt the republicans in the US will let "Obama care" stand if they got the presidency in the next election.... They hate that man, and what he stand for with a hatred I have never experienced before.. And I am not even in the US.....

I am also for the most part a healthy person - but sometimes, like every 5 or 10 years I get really sick, for the most part just with the flue - but this time I got really sick and I have to say pneumonia is one of the most painfully illnesses I have ever experienced in my life... I understand now that pneumonia was one of the big ones who killed off people in old times, before medication could fight back the illness.... At least here in Norway was pneumonia and Tuberculosis one of the worst illnesses to get before medication was made available and better medical attention to the illness was aviable...

Diclotican

[truebluegreen]

35. Health care was one of two issues for us when we left the US.

One was being forcibly retired from the construction biz by the crash in '08; the other was a health scare, a possible cancer diagnosis that turned out to be a false alarm, but would have meant bankruptcy.

We're not going back either, until it is fixed...so we might not be going back.

[Quantess]

69. American friends who have had cancer and insurance

have ended up with massive debt and have needed charity fundraisers to help them pay the bills.

I had high hopes that Obama would do more to revamp health care. ACA is an improvement, but it's not good enough.

[truebluegreen]

84. Completely agree.

We had insurance (assuming we could trust the insurance company to honor it) but even with it we could have lost everything. So we left, and we considered ourselves extremely lucky to have that option.

[krispos42]

21. Nice to see you dodged the vicious Norwegian Death Panels

In America, you have have died a free man rather than lived a free man.

Or lived as a broke free man instead of a comfortable free man.

See how much better U-S-A! U-S-A! is?

[Diclotican]

25. krispos42

krispos42

yeah - Somehow I managed to dodge the "death panels" here in Norway

Diclotican

[Enthusiast]

29. Glad to hear that things worked out for you, Diclotican.

We aren't allowed to have universal single payer health care in the US. In the US, corporations are not team players.

[Diclotican]

31. Enthusiast

Enthusiast


Yeah I'm better now and getting better day for day so to say..

And I have to admit - I have never really understood the fear of a universal health care in the US - as I have always taken it for granted that every "civilized" country in the world have one way or another a universal health care system, sometimes based on direct taxes as in Norway - sometimes on other types of systems, but where the goal is to give everyone a chance to get well again from the ilnesses...

Diclotican

[dem in texas]

33. You can get the same kind of universal care in the US

But it won't happen until you are 65 years old, it is called Medicare.

[Diclotican]

36. dem in texas

dem in texas

I have understood that - but I am not 65 year old - I'm 37 - and would have been broke - with a lot of debt if I have been living in the US.. And it is not easy to live on disability as it is here in Norway, even though I think it is more easy to live on disiblity here than in the US, from what I understood it is verry hard. - if I have been living in the US I would have been debt ridden for the rest of my natural life..

Diclotican

[dem in texas]

103. I was making an ironic statement, I know it doesn't work for everyone

I am 74 and my husband is 76. We have Medicare plus a supplement. We both take a lot medication and pay a small co-pay for a 90 day supply. My husband has had major operations and is now being treated for cancer. We have not had to pay anything for the care he has received. Our supplemental insurance runs about 175 dollars a month for each of us. I take care of my nephew who is autistic and disabled. He is 52 and gets SS disability and Medicare. He cannot get as good a plan as we have because of his health problems and has to pay all the co-pays. Texas Medicaid was paying for part of his medical, but he was cut off Texas Medicaid because of Perry's budget cuts in January and this has caused his health care to go up about $110 per month. If he has to go in the hospital, it will be expensive plus he needs a new artificial leg, the one he has is worn out and slips sometimes, he has to use a walker and could use a new walker too. I am sure that the new leg will cost thousands of dollars. We are waiting for a quote on one, then we will figure out how to pay for it. Hope we can get some of it covered by Medicare.

[Diclotican]

169. dem in texas

dem in texas

Don't worry, I'm not offended by it - and irony can be somewhat difficult to read

I'm sorry about your husband - cancer is a nasty illness, who can tip the balance both ways - Hopefully your husband will get better with treatment and you will be given many years together in the future....

And it is great you also is taking care of your nephew - i have a brother who have asberger, he live in a group home - and he have a comfortable life I would say - safe from some of the dangers of the world. And he is at least as smart as anyone I know who have no disability at all... Well he does have some issues where he can act as a child - but in other ways he is a grown up man who is able to do what he want - if he choose to do it!
I hope you also would be able to sort out your nephews artificial leg - it is important for anyone to have a leg to walk on, artificial or original... I have a friend of me who have a artificial leg - he got a new one not long ago as the old one was wearing and tearing itself out - and I doubt he was paying anything for it.. Even as the leg was costing a lot of money.. As some part of it is made out of titan - a very expensive metal..

Diclotican

[DebJ]

174. Thanks dem in texas for posting the supplemental costs.

Hubby and I will be there before too long. He has many health issues already so supplemental insurance
will be necessary. What I had briefly read was $473 a month and I thought that was just for him,
leaving me uncovered, but going by your info that might be for both of us.

[Maineman]

48. dem in Texas, you are misinformed

Medicare pays about 80%. 80% of $50,000, for example, leaves $10,000 for the patient to pay.

[Quantess]

134. Countries with single payer usually have small charges for patients. Not free.

Affordable, but not free.

[Diclotican]

176. Quantess

Quantess

Most people can afford NKR 315 in copay - 55.11 US dollar in "copay" if you have to go to the doctor - or to get to an emergency room and be admitted for 3 weeks...

Diclotican

[SoCalDem]

213. The difference is that when one is at an "advanced" age,

and of limited financial capabilities, the money "owed", often is never repaid, and probably gets "written off" a lot of the time.

For people of modest means, who exist on SS or small pensions, the secret is to have the family home "owned" by grown children, so that Mom & Dad have "nothing to lose".

A 30-something with a large medical debt is a real problem...a large medical debt to a 75 yr old, is not the same.

Of course the OBVIOUS solution is medicare for EVERYONE, with the 20% being taken care of with supplemental coverage which would be highly affordable to most people..

With medicare for ALL, we would not need the VA, or medicaid or any of the convoluted schemes we have all lived with for decades.

There would still BE insurance, but they would only be covering the 20%, so of course there would be no reason for high premiums

[LWolf]

56. Sort of.

My mother still can't afford her meds, and ends up with medical bills too large for her retirement income.

She's got medicare.

[tiredtoo]

214. Meds come under the bill passed by G.W.Bush and the repugs eom

[LWolf]

217. And isn't part of the ACA? nt

[tiredtoo]

222. the aca

has in fact improved on the prescription coverage in medicare. eliminating the donut hole for one. and there may be others but i do not recall them at this time.

[LWolf]

225. So we're not really talking about GWB's actions.

FYI, the donut hole has not yet gone away. I think it's supposed to happen at some point, for the seniors that live long enough.

[tiredtoo]

226. sir

This discussion began when i responded to somebody's meds costing too much. The prescription drug program included with medicare is a product of G.W. Bush and the repugs. This was referred to by many as a bonus program for big pharma. And the donut hole will be gone soon.
"In 2012, people who entered the gap received a 50 percent discount on name-brand drugs and a 14 percent discount on generics. In 2013, those discounts increase to 52.5 percent on name-brand drugs and 21 percent on generics. The discounts will increase each year until 2020, when the gap will be completely filled."

So seniors that are still alive are receiving benefits already. Those that are not alive are not receiving any benefits!

[roamer65]

178. It will be better under Obamacare.

We're not Norway yet, but we are moving in that direction.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

37. Quality of a country's health care measured by what the bottom 10% get, not the top 10%.

Republicans (especially Congress-critters who have gold-plated tax-payer paid health care) are fond of saying that the US has "the best health care in the world". That is only if you consider the top 10%.

If you look at the bottom 10% or the average, it is very bad.

[Diclotican]

42. Bernardo de La Paz

Bernardo de La Paz

Indeed - you can say a lot of a country - about how they is treating the "lesser" of the population - that be the poor and disabled ones.. For the elite, that be the economical or political elite, it is easy to say that we have a great health care - but for the most part, they are not the ones who are in need of health care at all... It is the ones on the bottom that often are in need of medical attention mostly - it cold be because of many factors - but often it is the sick and poor who need universal health care more than everyone else..

Diclotican

[Bernardo de La Paz]

44. "often it is the sick and poor who need universal health care more than everyone else"

"often it is the sick and poor who need universal health care more than everyone else"

So true! But rightists think that property rights trump everything.

"No man is an island"

[Bernardo de La Paz]

39. If "We take care of our own" good enough for US Marines, it's good enough for the whole USA. nt

[Iwillnevergiveup]

40. Diclotican

What an ordeal you went through! I appreciate the time and thought you put into your post - no problem with understanding it. And I'm glad you are "on the mend" as we say in the States. I don't think you would have had such a good outcome here.

K&R

[Diclotican]

45. Iwillnevergiveup

Iwillnevergiveup

It was some of a ordeal to went true - and I have been thinking a long time to write a little piece here on DU, to tell my experience with the universal health care system - who is not perfect - it have some weird quarks sometimes - but for the most part it works as promised - you will be given the help you are in need, and given time you will get back on your feet's again. And I am on the recovery side of it now - Little better every day - even as it will take some time to really get up to speed again... The whole thing really hit me hard this time around - but hopefully it is something that I will not experience again for a long time.

For some reason I am pretty sure you are right there - that be I properly would have had a greater ordeal in the US when it comes to medical attention - Not to say I would have been debt ridden for many years after the illness.. And living on disability it is not easy to "work" either to pay some extra every mount....

When I was in the hospital I had the time to really think about my life - and have deiced to make some changes to it - mostly because I think it would be for the best for me in the long run.. And for the health at least And I managed also to get a few kg off in the proses, not that it was bad for me - but it was more the circumstances who did that for me

Diclotican

[sulphurdunn]

41. Even if we ditched

private health insurance companies, we still couldn't afford universal health care and continue to feed a security state that consumer half the federal budget.

[Diclotican]

46. sulphurdunn

sulphurdunn

Rather scary is it not - that you can not afford universal health care - but can feed a security state that is taking half of your federal budget every year.. Where is all this money going ? But remember what broke the camels back in USSR - It was the military/security budget who finally broke the back there - I hope US can stop that in time, even though I doubt it wil...

Diclotican

[ConcernedCanuk]

270. Interesting comment/observation

.
.
.

"It was the military/security budget who finally broke the back there"

As you may well know, we have universal health care in Canada.

Recently, I was taken by ambulance to our local hospital, diagnosed with a bowel disorder that could not be handled there.

I was ambulanced to another hospital, where I spent 4 days, cat scan, MRI - operated on, treated with drugs and nutrients, released 4 days later.

My cost?

$0.00.

back to the top

"It was the military/security budget who finally broke the back there"

If the USA would stop its wars, and spend the $$ on it's own people . . .

You get it - you also understand that we probably will not see that happening for the USA in our lifetime.

Sad that.

CC

[Diclotican]

277. ConcernedCanuk

ConcernedCanuk

Universal Health Care do have it benefits - specially when you need it - and given the treatment you need, that be in your local hospital - or on a larger hospital where you get propper help...


In the 1970s and 1980s when the cold war was on it badest - it was the bad economy - and the military spending in the USSR who finally broke the camels back when it come to the economy.. The USSR had strugled with the economy for a long time in the 1970s - and was not able to compeete with USA even if they wanted to do it when it got to military spending. And the war in Afghanistan, who was extremely expensive for the USSR really hit the economy hard as USSR had to use more and more ressurses to fight the Muhadehin in Afghanistan - ressurses that should have been spendt on sivilian use inside the USSR.. Not to say that the USSR also had to answer to Reagans "stat-wars program" who in the early 1980s scared the hell out of Kremlin becouse it looked like USA was on the brink of having the ressurses to wage a nuclear war against the soviets - withouth the USSR been able to answer in kind if war was to break out... A lot of ressurses was spendt on that front - ressourses that could have been spendt on making sure the population in the USSR might have better life..

In the mid 1980s new leaders emerged in the Soviet with Gorbatsjev, who wanted shange - he understood to a degree that the system was broke - and wanted to shange it - and opened the country slowly to the rest of the world.. He also wanted to spend less on military - as allmoust 50 percent of the national budget was spendt on the Navy, the Airforce, and the Armed forces in USSR... And USSR had not the ressourses to continue that in the future...

Be beware of economical colapse - that is my advice for america....

Diclotican

[Maineman]

55. Don't forget the rampant profiteering of the medical/pharmaceutical community and the

crap that passes for food, and the corporate owned FDA spreading misinformation. And, if people would get informed and eat for health rather than for drug-like pleasure, the cost of health care would be much lower.

[Diclotican]

59. Maineman

Maineman

Healthy food is important - processed food can be directly dangerous for you - it is best to make the food you eat from scratch - vegetables, meat, fish and so one - even as most people have to little time to make make food from the ground up - I think most people given the chance and knowledge would rather make food from the ground up, using fresh food and healthy food, rather than the processed food... At least I will change my diet now - using a lot more fresh food and to also eat a lot more vegetables than before in the food... I have been lazy when it come to the diet - not that I have not tried to eat healthy - it is just that is is more "easy" to eat food who is processed than to do it from scratch.... But from now I will take the time to make the food - from scratch as I like to make food - The Kitchen is kind of "My" territory home and I do not like others to be there as they often messing up with the kitchen all the time... (And I am a male)

I guess the First Lady is into something when she want americans to drink more water too - as it makes the kidneys work better - and also is good for you regardless of your age or health.... My doctor at the hospital told me to at least drink 1.5 liter water every day - to make sure the kidneys got enough water to work with. So I have always at least a liter water nearby - so I can take a sip of two now and then.. It taste good to when chilled so I'm not complaining And in the long run I will try to cut the use of soda and other soft drinks to a minimum - specially cola and that type of stuff...

Diclotican

[eridani]

233. Wrong. The healthier you are, the longer you live. The longer you live--

--the more you cost the system.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html

Preventing obesity and smoking can save lives, but it does not save money, according to a new report.

It costs more to care for healthy people who live years longer, according to a Dutch study that counters the common perception that preventing obesity would save governments millions of dollars.

"It was a small surprise," said Pieter van Baal, an economist at the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment in the Netherlands, who led the study. "But it also makes sense. If you live longer, then you cost the health system more."

In a paper published online Monday in the Public Library of Science Medicine journal, Dutch researchers found that the health costs of thin and healthy people in adulthood are more expensive than those of either fat people or smokers.

[eridani]

279. Yes, we could. Even with an expensive security state--

--we are currently paying twice per capita what other countries spend.

[heaven05]

47. we here in america

are at the mercy of politicians paid off by lobbyist for the AMA and pharmaceutical giants who make a royal killing off of the medications you probably had to have and take and the care those said doctors and hospitals provide. Profit driven not care driven. Not caring whether we go bankrupt because of a sickness and not caring if we die because we're poor. I'm sixty five and I won't see universal care in this country, ever, while I'm alive. B.O has started the ball rolling but those said politicians won't let anything get in the way of their payoff, not even the health and welfare of the people who, against their best interests, voted them into office. Period. And good luck on your recovery.

[Diclotican]

65. heaven05

heaven05

I have always been somewhat pondering about the unwillingness to make Universal Health Care a nr 1 priority in the US, even as US do have some of the best doctors and hospitals in the world - they still do not want, or dear to make it possible for everyone to have access to universal heath Care... I know even Eisenhower, for all his wisdom was afraid of that Universal Health Care could do with the US, when that topic was up on a president al level in the mid 1950s (I think it was in 1958) And after that, in the Shadow of the cold war, the whole idea of universal health care kind of drowned and was never resurfaced before President Barack Obama deiced it was time to do something with it.. Even as it was a very watered down program it is something at least better than nothing..

I am afraid you are right there - I doubt you wile se universal health care in the US anytime soon - maybe if something really change in the US.. Like if the american population finally wake up and understood how bad treated they have been by their own politicians over the last century alone... I'm pretty sure if enough americans understood - or experienced what universal health care can do for you - would rise up in anger and walk to washington DC in pure anger to let their leaders know what is expected from them....

But as you also say - many americans elect the same politicians again and again - and again even if it is against their own interest - and I have to say, the ignorance I sometimes experiences with americans wisting Norway is outright stunning to come across.... I am a naive man - who more than one time have get "burned" because I trust people to much - but lord - many americans is just - to put it mildly really stupid... Or ignorant about the world outside their own small world..

Diclotican

[heaven05]

70. I could not agree more

keep healing and keep the stress levels down.

[Diclotican]

75. heaven05

heaven05

I'm working on it - and I try to listen to the body when it want to have some rest - It is better to get some sleep for a hour - than to get all worked up trying to be up until night... For the moment, it works well - and I am just taking one day as it is - not planing to much every day - better to be on the mend, than to be sick again - and I hope, that it will be a long time before I got sick again...

Diclotican

[mountain grammy]

49. so glad you're on the mend..

In America, if you didn't have insurance or Medicare, chances are you would be dead.

I lost several friends who couldn't afford our health care system and are gone now.

[Diclotican]

76. mountain grammy

mountain grammy

I know - that is the most scary thing with it all - I would have been dead if I was not on medicare or had an incurace who could help me... at least some of the way to health..... But thanks to universal Health Care I am back home - and well enough to get well when the time comes..
¨
The US is a cruel place to live, if you get sick, I would say - and no one can guaranty that you will stay healthy forever either....

It is sad you have lost friends - not because their illness was not curable - but because they could not afford the copay for getting medical attention they was in need of.. It most be horrible to live in a country where you must be afraid of going sick - and where the possibility of dying must be calculated - because you was not able to pay the bills.....

Diclotican

[mountain grammy]

153. It is horrible, Diclotican. The worst thing is people who are so afraid of universal health

care because they don't understand it and think anything socialized must be wrong. It's sad to see so many who believe the lies about "death panels" and "long lines for health care."

The real death panels are the insurance companies and the politicians who refuse to work for a better system. I'm amazed every day that Americans can be so easily fooled.

[Diclotican]

157. mountain grammy

mountain grammy

I have always been confused about the fear many americans have against Universal Health care - or anything that smell "socialism" at all... It is not socialism to have Universal Health Care, it is just common sense in the country's who have it.. Yeah you pay some more taxes than in the US, but you is getting it back if you ever got really sick - or have to go to the hospital with a broken toe... (As I have experienced a few times) And the worst is, no death panels is around to decide if you are worthy of the medical attention or not... I have at least never experienced anything like a "death panel" who could decide it... Even though I did had a doctor who was somewhat rude against me one time when I was hospitalized this time, but for the most part they are professional and do their job according to the illness.. (I told the nurse after the fact, that I found it to be both rude and less than stellar from a doctor, and I suspect the nurse told him that - as he was much more polite the next day)

I'm maybe out on a limb here - but I found americans to be naive when it comes to other ways to make a system works - sometimes they are genius - other times they are outright stupid - and have no clue what so ever about the world outside their own state.. Sometimes it is mindbondling to put it kindly how ignorant some americans is.. Even if they have some great education, far more education than I would ever be able to get even if I had the grades to get the education....

Sometimes it looks like the american people found love in its ignorance about the world - and about something like Universal Health Care....

Diclotican

[mountain grammy]

159. Diclotican, what you say is so true, but the real problem is

people think the government is the problem, but we are the government. Many Americans are against our government and don't trust anything the government says or does, even though government programs like Social Security and Medicare are very popular, the same people benefiting are the ones not trusting the government.
I honestly do not understand my fellow citizens or where we went wrong. I think Americans were much more involved while I was growing up in the 60's and it looked like we were headed in a more progressive direction. Now we only seem to be able to distrust and hate each other. It's so depressing. My husband's relatives are very right wing and against any government social programs. They are fundamental Christians and their way of thinking is very narrow and bigoted, like too many Americans.

We have been seriously thinking about spending the rest of our retirement in Canada.

[Diclotican]

164. mountain grammy

mountain grammy

And there lies the problem I think - Reasonable government are not a danger to anyone - it is repressive or violent government that is the problem - and I suspect that the fear many americans have against government run programs goes down to propaganda from the last 30-40 years.. Ever since President Reagan got into office, it have been a "truth ism" that government is bad - the less government, the better it is. Even if it means you do not have access to affable health care, if you get sick and in need of medical attention...

And the irony of it it all - as you point it out yourself - Medicare is a popular program who was started under one of the most progressive Presidents of all times FDR (Who by the way is the only President who have a statue of himself in Oslo, and who also was a personal friend of our Royal family. Our current King was guest of the FDRs in the 1940s, when Germany occupied Norway, and he still have found memories from that times when he literary was in the hall of great powers - As guest of the President of the United States )...

I think maybe it is true, that most americans was more involved in things in the 1960s, today it looks like they are more interested in the last news from the big Hollywood's stars, rather than trying to make it a better future than the past.. I think maybe, from what I can se from the outside - that most americans have been pushed into a corner, where they have not the resources to fend against the conditions the extreme right want it it be.... I fear the US is going into a abyss it will take a long time to get out of... If it is possible at all....

Fundamental Christians tend to be narrow minded and bigoted I'm afraid - even if they also tend to be caring and loving on a personal level.. And thats sad..

Canada is a nice country to live in I think - maybe it is time to relocate to Canada - before bad health make it impossible ?.. Even though I guess it would be sad to leave your life where you are living.

Diclotican

[Demeter]

50. Hejsan!

Hope you feel better soon! That was quite a story.

[Diclotican]

54. Demeter

Demeter

Hallo

Yeah I am feeling better, day for day - but I think it will take some time before I am back on the feet's as before I got sick.. The body are not as fast as the brain this days - and I am much more tired than before.. But it is picking up speed so I just have to be carefully a while before the body mend itself properly. And thankfully to universal health care I am able to do that properly...

Diclotican

[Aristus]

51. Thank you, Diclotican.

Feel better soon. That was a great example of the great things that universal health care can do.

And, as always, your English is excellent.

[Diclotican]

57. Aristus

Aristus

Your welcome - When I was in hospital I was thinking about writing this piece for a long time - mostly because many americans seen to be afraid of anything that is smelling "socialism" - that be universal health care, or other types where the government have a say in things... And I hope maybe some americans here on DU now understand that universal health care is not bad - at least it made it possible for me to get the help I needed - and not be burdened with a lot of debt for the rest of my life.

I think I'm getting better with my english - even as the grammar is maybe some off, but then again, english is not a easy language to really write properly sometimes But it is always nice to be told that you understand it

Diclotican

[JustAnotherGen]

58. Glad you are AOK Diclotican

And your guess is accurate - that experience would have left you bankrupt in America.

[Diclotican]

62. JustAnotherGen

JustAnotherGen

Yes, I'm better, thank you - even as it will take some time to get where I was before I got sick at least I'm on my feet - and is able to be back home. But I guess after this ordeal I will be in for some checkup now and then at least for the kidney who kind of broke down and make me so sick... A healthy kidney is absolutely important for a human to live...


Thankfully I am not living in the US - I was wondering about emigrating to the US when I was 18-19 years old - but for many reasons it never materialized into anything - and today I am very gratefully for that - that I was not emigrating to the US - but instead deiced to just be back home...

Diclotican

[ColesCountyDem]

64. My great-aunt's experience with NHS in Wales.

My great-aunt was intensely interested in genealogy, and at age 68, went to Wales to do research, as well as sightseeing. While there, she suffered a massive hemorrhagic stroke. Upon being stabilized at a local hospital, she was airlifted to University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff.

Upon arrival, Aunt Ginny was placed in NIC (neurological intensive care), where she remained for 23 days until being further stabilized and moved to a private room for another 10 days. At that point, her attending physician pronounced her able to travel back to the US via either air ambulance OR commercial airliner with a physician in attendance.

On my side of the Atlantic, my father (a physician, fortunately), made the travel arrangements to bring Aunt Ginny home and place her in a skilled-care nursing and rehabilitation facility. Fortunately, Aunt Ginny was a thrifty person who had always had a decent job and who had sufficient funds to pay for the travel arrangements, etc. . Anticipating an enormous bill in Cardiff, we withdrew $100K from her bank in the form of cashier's check. Transportation expenses were arranged and prepaid on this side of the Atlantic.

Dad and I flew to Cardiff (via London, of course) and made our way to University Hospital of Wales. While Dad supervised the 'hands on' part of getting Aunt Ginny released, etc., I was dispatched to the Bursar's Office to settle accounts. Imagine my shock at being informed that Aunt Ginny owed a total of 70-odd Pounds (for television), period! Keeping the cashier's check in my wallet, I paid her outstanding bill with a traveler's check.

To make a long story short, Aunt Ginny received world-class medical care for a catastrophic illness essentially for free, and she wasn't even a British subject! Because of that care, she was able to recover to the extent of being able to think, speak, feed herself and return to her home (albeit confined permanently to a wheelchair) and live another 7 years.

If this is an example of the 'evils of universal health care, all I can say is, "Bring it on!"

[Diclotican]

73. ColesCountyDem

ColesCountyDem

A great story in itself - and it was great that your great aunt was able to be well enough after been in hospital for so long to get back home and live for another 7 years. even after a massive stroke, maybe some reduced from what she was before the stroke - but still clear minded and able to sort out things on her own.

It most have been scary to say at least - both for your great aunt, but also for your family who believed you have to pay more than 100 grand for the treatment your great aunt was given in Wales. And i suspect you and your father was very relived when the whole bill for the treatment was 70 pound - not 100.000 dollar..

And it was also great, that your great aunt was able to come back, thanks to your father who had the right connections and was able to give her a decent medical attention on the US side too. Even as she might not was able to came back home, she had a decent life - and was given the attention she needed when sick.. A stroke is dangerous and can devastated a human for many years if not given the right attentions.

The possibility to have access to universal health care should have been enshrined into every government documents, like your "holy" constitution and bill of rights.. I would have put the right to universal health on top of the bill of rights - and the amendments to your constitution... Maybe thrown out the 2 admented in favor of access to universal health care.. That would make the gun nuts go crazy - but I guess access to universal health care is more important - than the right to bear arms all the time...

I guess, even the US one day wil have universial health care - but I am afraid that day is far away yet..

Diclotican

[Thor_MN]

66. Diclotican

I'm so sorry to hear that you were ill, but happy to hear that you are on the mend. You are totally correct, if you lived in the US, your illness would have likely bankrupted you. Very few people here have the financial resources to weather a 3 week hospitalization. I'm not sure if they have been totally outlawed yet, but not too long ago, the costs would have probably run into coverage caps and insurance would have stopped paying. I think that is or is being banned by the Affordable Care Act.

Until we manage to get the "For Profit" aspects out of health care, the US will lag behind much of the world. We need to excise the cancer of the "business people" that know nothing about health, who measure success in revenue dollars.

[Diclotican]

74. Thor_MN

Thor_MN

I am gratefully for the help I was getting when I was sick - and even more in favor of a strong universal health care than I was before I got sick. And I am also very glad I was able to get out of the hospital - when I was healthy enough to do it - I have to say - when I was walking out of the hospital - to a friend of me who I asked to pick me up - it was wonderfully to feel the sun on my face - and to be able to walk in the fresh air again.. I could not get out of the hospital fast enough . The body is tired, but the mind is where it want to be again - but it will take some time before I am up and running again I am afraid. At least as I was before..

I have not the financial resources to weather a 3 week hospitalization, specially as the doctors was not really sure at first wat it was - specially with the lungs - they was afraid it was a blood cloth, who is dangerous in itself - but the kidney really scared the hell out of them - and they used a lot of time and medication to "start up" the kidney again... A lot of IV drip was needed before the kidney started to work as it should do - and as I have just one who work properly - it was paramount that it started working again... Then they had to work on my pneumonia that was rather unfriendly to me - and it was little tricky to get the right medication to it as it was not a "normal" pneumonia but something they said was an a-typical pneumonia.. And that was just the think the first hospital had to fix... And it was not before the last couple of days, that the kidney really was up to speed, and was doing as it should do....


The faster the US is getting rid of the "for profit" aspect of healt care, the faster americans can get universial health care for everyone - but I am afraid the system is rather corrupt - and it wil take a long, long time before US wil getting universial health care for everyone... If something are not shanging then...

Diclotican

[leftstreet]

71. DURec

Thanks Diclotican

[Arugula Latte]

85. If you don't go broke paying for life-sustaining healthcare it ain't freedom!

No, really, I'm glad you're on the mend and that you live in a civilized country. We here can only dream of it.

[Diclotican]

96. Arugula Latte

Arugula Latte

American humor I gueess

Yeah I am verry glad I am living in a civilized country - where I got the help I was in need of - when I needed it most - I doubt I would have managed on my own if I had continued to be home - hoping to get well.... And the doctors was telling me, in not so many words, that my kidney was in a BAD shape when I got to the hospital....

One day, maybe even the you have access to universal health care as the civilized world have it - it might take time to do it - but our universal health care was building up one block at the time - From the first laws in the late 1800s, to the full universal health care system of the 1950s and 1960s it took time for it all.. Your ACA is one brick in the right direction - but it will take a long time before universal health care is as regular in the US, as it is elsewhere I'm afraid..

Mostly because many is afraid about what it could do for the US - the fear of federal programs - even if it is to the better of everyone is strong in the US this times - and the media are just making this fear stronger and stronger as times go... If they just know.....

Diclotican

[madrchsod]

86. here in the states that would cost somewhere between 3-4 hundred thousand dollars

depending on insurance you would have to pay somewhere around 20% of the bill. depending on the medicare plan medicare anywhere from 0 to 20% depending on procedure.

i had a cardiac arrest and spent 7 days in critical care .the bill was over 450,000 dollars. medicare paid 95% of that bill. that is not the following bills for rehab and other procedures relating to the ca.

[Diclotican]

88. madrchsod

madrchsod

Wow, I would have been broke for most of my natural life if I had been that sick in the US then - even if I had a decent insurance with me.... Thankfully I have access to universal health care - and I have not paying a dime for the treatment I was getting - well - I have already paid into it, by paying taxes over many years - but still - it is better to play that taxes, than to go broke - and maybe not even get a decent medical attention because of the cost....

Diclotican

[madrchsod]

204. i've declared medical bankruptcy twice in my lifetime

here in the states medical bankruptcy can not be used against you when applying for credit

[Diclotican]

207. madrchsod

madrchsod

It must be hard - to declare yourself bankrupt - because of medical bills.... It is sad to read your experience when it come to this things - it should not be a issue at all.... If you need medical attention, you should be given it more or less free of sharge...

But it is good that no one can use medical bankruptcy against you, if you is applying for credit...

Diclotican

[Nye Bevan]

92. Under an Obamacare gold plan it would cost no more than $3000.

And under a silver plan, no more than $6,250.

And this includes hospital, physicians, prescriptions, everything.

(I am basing these numbers on the CT Health Exchange plans).

http://ct.gov/hix/lib/hix/Exhibit_5_-_Gold_Grid.pdf
http://ct.gov/hix/lib/hix/Exhibit_1_-_Silver_70_Grid.pdf

[madrchsod]

205. thanks

[Ron Obvious]

89. Americans don't realise how screwed they are

My story is not so different than yours. Heart failure when I was in Germany. Three weeks in hospital, first rate medical care, all the tests, it would have run to $350,000 in the US, but wind up costing less than 8,000 Euros, which is less than our annual deductible here. 6 months of pills (6 prescriptions) for 85 Euros.

I tell this story to everyone, but virtually nobody is outraged. I suppose the myth of American exceptionalism is so strong they probably assume medical care in Europe must be third rate if it's that cheap. It's maddening.

Obamacare will do shit to solve this issue, other than subsidising absurdly high insurance rates for some people. Apparently a silver plan should cost us more than a mortgage payment according to the exchange calculator.

[Nye Bevan]

90. Under an Obamacare Gold plan, it would have cost you no more than $3000,

which is the annual out-of-pocket maximum (on the CT exchange).

So I'm not sure how cutting your bill from $350,000 to $3000 is "doing shit to solve this issue".

[Ron Obvious]

93. You're ignoring the insurance premiums

I don't know how much a gold plan would cost, but even a silver plan would cost my wife and me well over $1,000 a month. That's without dental and vision coverage, and no subsidy in our case.

I don't consider that reasonable.

[Nye Bevan]

105. What would your cost be without Obamacare?

And would you even be able to obtain insurance?

[Ron Obvious]

112. Worse, no doubt

One benefit of even having insurance is that they will negotiate your costs down a fair bit, and many doctors won't even see you if you don't have insurance. Costs seem arbitrary. Our BCBS is currently costing us more than $600 a month, and they literally pay for nothing. I get to deduct somewhere between $10,000 and $15,000 from our taxes every year. I venture that's unique in the developed world.

Many people will benefit from Obamacare, but the real problem isn't getting addressed: The absurdly high cost of medical care in the first place. It will further enshrine medical insurance as a work benefit, when it ought to be decoupled from employment entirely and it will not address medical costs. Like Shrub's Medicare part D, it explicitly prevents the government from negotiating for lower prices.

Even those who don't see the insurance premiums their employers are paying will probably notice the raises they're not getting since wages have been stagnating ever since Reagan.

One way or another, the absurdly high cost of medical care in this country will still be born by the people.

I'm not even addressing the cost of medication. In Germany, they freely gave me 6 months of pills for about 100 bucks. For comparison, two (2!) vitamin K pills I had to buy here to counteract my too thin blood was already $22. For that matter, can you imagine any US pharmacy turning over 6 months of pills in one go? It was always a struggle for my wife to get her birth control pills more than one month at a time. They always had excuses.

[Nye Bevan]

126. So starting next year you will be paying somewhat more per month,

but your out-of-pocket costs will be vastly lower than they are now, which will more than make up for the extra premium.

And yes, we do need to do more to lower costs. Tort reform would help, and there also needs to be more transparency. Hospitals, for example, should be required to post all of their rates on the internet.

My last couple of policies allow for a 3 month supply of prescription drugs providing that I use their mail order pharmacy (Express Scripts). The delivery is free and the copay is lower than for getting a 1 month supply three times from CVS.

[Ron Obvious]

135. Maybe

That would be true if I were hospitalised for 3 weeks every year, but I'm hoping to stay out of them for a few years.

I fly to Germany twice a year for medical checkups now. It's so much cheaper, the travel costs seem neglible.

[Nye Bevan]

138. Bear in mind that under the ACA check-ups and all preventive care are free,

with zero copay, regardless of whether you have met your deductible.

[Ron Obvious]

141. That's an important point

And I thank you for bringing it to my attention. It may well affect my future decisions.

I don't know if my heart tests would be considered regular check-ups, but I'm pretty sure the costs for 6 months of pills (and my wife's now also) will still make the trips worthwhile.

NPR's Fresh Air recently had a show where a guy researched a hip replacement. He was in constant pain, but his insurance wouldn't pay the several hundred thousand dollars the procedure would cost. He wound up having it done in Belgium for some $12,000 which was less than the artificial hip alone would have cost in the US. It was the identical (US-made) hip he wound up getting , ironically.

When medical care costs more than 10 times as much here as in similar countries, there's something deeply wrong. It'll bankrupt us all at this rate.

[Diclotican]

94. Ron Obvious

Ron Obvious

That sounds hard, to possible be given a bill of 350.000 dollar for critical medical attention - even though Germany do it another way then in Norway - it is still better to pay 8000 Euro, than 350.000 dollar, 8000 euro is a setback - but you tend to be able to at least pay it - compared to 350.000 who might take a decade or two to pay down - if you are lucky and the hospital is "nice" to you - or you have a attorney who could work it out for you.....

It is madness - when people are not even caring about the fact, that in Europe you can get the same treatment - for far less than in the US.. I guess it is enshrined into the "american code" in some way - that universal health care is wrong - and if you need health care, you have to pay for it....

And it is a long time since the medical care in US was third rate - many americans still believe Europe exist in a limbo of the 1950s, where illnesses like tuberculosis and many other illnesses was killing people right left and center - the medical knowledge have risen from the 1950s to a standard who is as best as anything the US can afford - for far less as the different country's in Europe have deiced that one for or another of the "universal health care" system is important to public safety.. As it was when the first laws when it comes to health care for everyone states - it was for the betterment of everyone - and for public saftly... After the devastating effect of both World War one and two in Europe - it was kind of the right thing to do - to build up a solid safely net for everyone - in the years between the two wars - many of the tools was starting to materialize itself - but it was not until after the war, a public health care system was build up in every european nations - mostly because whole city's had been reduced to rubbles and therefore they could plan for building more healthy City's.. Specially in Germany, they managed to rebuild a lot of the town and City's to a level never before seen in Germany.. The same happened in the UK, where parts of London had to be rebuild - totally from the ground up.. Even as it took years to do it - at least from the outside the London was made more modern - and more healthy as a lot of the houses who had been bombed had to be rebuild from the ground floor....

Diclotican

[Ron Obvious]

128. That bill also arrived 6 months later...

In the US, they would have asked for the money up front most likely. The hospital in Germany had all my (American) insurance info on file but couldn't figure out a way to bill them, so they wound up sending me the bill instead.

You'd think my insurance company would be popping Champagne corks over the low costs but they're balking over not being able to get access to my medical file in Germany since privacy laws prevent it.

In any case, there was a rigid separation between the medical care and billing. The doctors had no knowledge of my insurance state and whether or not I could even pay the bills. Medical decisions were made for medical reasons, not financial ones.

Death panels, my arse. It's the US insurance companies that are the real death panels.

ETA: Grammar.

[Diclotican]

143. Ron Obvious

Ron Obvious

It arrived 6 mouts later too - even if the Hospital did have your insurance info on file - but was not able to figure out a way to bill the insurance company... Well even if it was a steep bill - it still is better with 8000 Euro than 350.000 for the same medical attention...

Your insurance company must be a weird one - if they was balking about a bill of 8000 euro - instead of 350.000 dollar - for them it would have been just small change to pay it - and they sure would have been able to get it back somehow.... Germany do have some strict privacy laws - and they are rather strict in making the law stick... The consequences could send some in prison if they are not following the letter of the law sometimes.....

The doctors are there to help you get well - others do the billings I think, and it should be that to. And it was great that your doctors was making the medical decisions for medical reasons - not for the reason of financial ones.. It is best for the patients I suspect, that the doctors give you the best advices they can give you, instead worrying about if you could pay for it or not....

From what I have read here on DU, I would say the Insurance companies in the US are the real Death Panels, as they will pick and choose who is to live - and who is to die by deny them medical attention - by refuse to pay for the needed medicine - or to deny coverage all togheter....

Diclotican

[mstinamotorcity2]

95. glad you are on the mend.

from your words to skydaddy's ear.

[Diclotican]

97. mstinamotorcity2

mstinamotorcity2

Thank you mstinamotorcity2

Diclotican

[suffragette]

101. Diclotican, I'm sorry you had this health ordeal, but glad you did not have the added stress of

worrying about whether you would be able to afford your care or of worrying about possible bankruptcy due to medical bills.

Thank you for sharing what it is like to have a health care system that focuses on actual care rather than on ensuring that insurers and other parasites get their percentage of profit.

[Diclotican]

104. suffragette

suffragette

It have been a proses for a time this words - mostly because I usually are not telling this things on message boards - but many on DU have expressed strong feelings about universal health Care, so I decided to broke some of my own rules - to tell how I experienced universal health care where I live..

It most be hard to live in a country - where you pocket are the ones who deiced if you can get proper treatment or not for illnesses you might experience over many years in your life, some live to be 100 without any illnesses, others get illnesses and have to go to the emergency room - or be in a hospital for a long time - for me it took 3 weeks to get well enough to get home - when I needed it it was great to be able to be there - and getting help from my illness - but I am very gratefully that I am back home - where I belong... A hospital is a hospital - even if the nurses and doctors do a great job making it possible to get your well... And I was thinking many times when I was lying there in the hospital, how lucky I indeed was, for not have to worry about the bill after treatment... Specially when the night was there, and I was not able to sleep I had time to think how lucky I was - and maybe also decide for myself what I would do when I was getting home again... And I deiced I would do a lot different - specially with what I'm eating....Less meat - more fish and bird - and a lot more fresh vegetables on the table from now one.....

Diclotican

[Hissyspit]

102. Hi, Diclotican!

Sorry you got ill.

[Diclotican]

106. Hissyspit

Hissyspit

Hello Hissypit I'm better now - recovering from it all. I'm afraid it will take some time before I get back on my feet again, but I am at least up and running now....

I guess I just got un-lucky this time around, the fall is often a time when I got little sick - one way or another - for the most part it is just something the body is working out itself - but this time it really hit me with vengeance. Oh well, my usually luck I guess... Hopefully It will be a long time before I got ill again now.... Just have to mend myself - and maybe take more care about myself

Diclotican

[awoke_in_2003]

108. Your English is much better than my Norwegian...

Glad you at doing better. Had you spent that much time in the hospital here it would probably break you financially

[Diclotican]

110. awoke_in_2003

awoke_in_2003

Well - I suspect your Norwegian is less than perfect - but it is nice to be told that I am at least better than I was when I started here on DU.

I have always been a defender of universal health care - and my resolve for universal health care have not exactly being less after my experience for the last 3 weeks (I got out of the hospital last Thursday) Even if it do have some issues that should be fixed - at least I am not broke for the next decade or two.... And I know that I would have have been broken the camels back if I had been in the US in hospital for 3 weeks... Specially as I am living on disability and well do not have so much saving in the bank... I'm saving up to a car you se, it would do wonder for my social life at least - but car's cost some in Norway - and for the most part I have had just the cheap cars before I deiced to get rid of the car all together it was to expensive to repair in the end... And this time I think I would save up to a newer - better and maybe more safe car than I have had before..... Not that I really need it - I have both train and bus stop nearby - and less than 40 minutes to the downtown area of our capital Oslo - so I guess I'm fine for the moment if need arise

I hope, one day that even the US will have universal health care as part of their life - even though I doubt it will be anytime soon...

Diclotican

[awoke_in_2003]

122. I don't hold out much hope...

we have been slowly sliding toward destruction for most of my life.

[madokie]

109. I have the VA and it is pretty good

I wish everyone here had the same quality of care.
I spent a week in the hospital with a DVT and my total cost was a few bucks over a grand. I was treated with respect and care that I think was top notch.

[Diclotican]

113. madokie

madokie

Thats sounds great - that at least you have a decent health care for veterans - I guess you did a great service to your country in your time. I'm not an military person myself - but I do have respect for the ones who are in uniform. They do often dangerous job I doubt I would have dared to do myself. And it is always good to be treated with respect and care when you are sick - nothing is worse if you are treated with disrespect if you are sick and not well... It makes often the healing more difficult.

One day, I hope everyone in the US would get the same health care regardless of who you are, and where you are living - but I am also afraid it will take a long time before it will happened - mostly because to many is afraid of what a "socialist" program like Universal Health Care would mean for their "freedom" to choose.. Or the fact, that they might have to play little more taxes to financiered Universal Health Care...

Diclotican

[Spitfire of ATJ]

114. Cost? Put it this way, break your leg on a ski trip and lose your house.

[Diclotican]

115. Spitfire of ATJ

Spitfire of ATJ

Thats sounds bad - to be ruined and loose your house over a broken leg... I have yet to break my leg - but I do have had the unfordable accident with a few toes over the years - a fireplace is not the right place to stump your foot at when pissed off.... Its hurt - and it ended up in a cast for the summer (a summer who by the way was rather warm and good).... But then again it was my own fault getting pissed of in the first place I guess...

Diclotican

[Spitfire of ATJ]

146. Woulda been cheaper to toss the TV in there.

[Nye Bevan]

124. Or pay no more than $3000 for everything under an Obamacare Gold plan.

http://www.ct.gov/hix/lib/hix/Gold_Grid_8.30.13.pdf

[Ms. Toad]

285. I didn't find any premiums on the site -

Are they hiding somewhere, or not up yet?

(Not in Connecticut, but I'm curious about the annual difference in premiums between silver and gold is more than $3,200 - since my daughter would blow through $6250 in 3 months each and every year.)

[Nye Bevan]

286. Here's a link that talks about premiums:

http://articles.courant.com/2013-08-05/business/hc-health-exchange-monthly-premiums-20130805_1_access-health-ct-kevin-counihan-healthyct

An excerpt:

ConnectiCare Benefits has been approved to sell individual plans at the following monthly base rates: $215.17 for bronze, $269.66 for silver and $309.64 for gold. These are base rates only and could be different for individuals based on age and where a person lives in Connecticut.

Anthem and HealthyCT also were approved to offer individual plans on the state exchange. Anthem's rates were $236.59 for bronze, $299.21 for silver and $346.91 for gold. HealthyCT's rates are $245.45 for bronze, $310.02 for silver and $321.22 for gold. Aetna withdrew its application Friday after rejecting the Insurance Department's modifications to its rates.

So for Connecticare the annual difference in premiums between silver and gold is $480. Clearly your daughter should obtain the highest "metal" plan available; at least gold, and platinum if one is available in your state. (No insurer is going to sell platinum plans in CT)

[Ms. Toad]

287. So - for anyone with ongoing meds and medical needs

which exceed 3000 a year, the gold is a better buy than the other plans until the lower priced plan is ~$270/month cheaper than the gold plan.

My daughter is still on my plan for 2 more years - I'm mostly thinking out loud because a lot of people don't do the math to figure out that for people who can calculate their expenses at more than the out of pocket maximum every year, you are guaranteed lower overall costs by buying the highest price plan available (in the CT scenario).

[pandr32]

120. I am originally from Canada

and find it difficult to adjust to the health-care system here. I have primary and secondary and still wind up paying out of pocket--not to mention the monthly fees. One of the things I loved in Canada was that the "Care Card" is the same for all, regardless of circumstance. I have heard countless stories here of an inferior health care system there (waiting so long some people die for example). Never have I waited long for care there, but here--sometimes it takes several months to schedule an appointment with a specialist. I wind up on waiting lists and often see their nurse practitioner instead. In one instance I have only met the doctor when a procedure was scheduled and he showed up to perform it.
Meanwhile, In Canada, my mother is receiving care at home instead of in a facility and it is covered. My sister found a lump on her neck and was examined, put on treatment, and is receiving follow-up care now without paying a dime. The stress of the illness was enough without going broke as well. Her daughter (almost eight now) was born severely premature, spent two months in the hospital, and gets together with other "preemies" born there once a year for an annual check for special developmental problems that often occur with preemies, and a party--all covered through health care. It is a day long event. Imagine a hospital inviting you back to have their specialists examine you and invite you and your family to a catered party each year at no cost!

[Diclotican]

129. pandr32

pandr32

It must be hard to adjust to a system who are so different from the one in Canada. The System have its quarks and sometimes it can be a time between appointment, specially if you have to get more professionals into the game - as with my problems with my knees - sometimes it takes a couple of mounts to get a appointment - And i have sometimes problems getting the appointments right - but thankfully to the calendar on the phone I am getting most of them right now
I doubt it is so bad as some want it to be - most people who are given health care in a universal health care system are given it properly and in time, and the rumors about people dying all the time I would say is very overstated and twisted to almost the unknown for the most part.... But then again if you are just listening to FOX news, you tend to believe what they are telling you I guess....

It is great your mother is given help back home - and it is covered by universal health care - it is far better for people to be able to stay home, in their own home when old an in "bad" health than to be put in a facility where they might not are comfortable at all.. Even if the help they receive is the best you can be given..... And it is always a stress factor when you are sick - even if you are in a comfortable bed, cared and catered for 24/7 if you need it.. You are not back home where you belong.... And old people tend to need the comfort back home instead of in a institution or in a facility...

It is great your sister also got the treatment she needed - without paying a dime for it - I guess paying that nasty taxes is not the worst thing we can do - when you will be given treatment for something you might not know what is - and who would ruin your economy if you was in the US.....

Premature children will have some special needs for many, many years as it often is a hard start on life to be premature - 2 mounts premature is almost on the limits of what is possible even this days and age - I hope her daughter will grow up to a healthy woman when that time comes - and the possibility of disability is less than it might had been if she had not had the attention, and medical need from the hospital..

That's sound like a great thing to do - invite premature children back to the hospital - every now and then, so the children can examine you, and keep a tab on possible health problems before they start at all... And I doubt many hospital are doing the same anywhere else - to have a party, for your all - at no cost... That is a nice touch to it all I would say...

Diclotican

[delrem]

237. This is why as a Canadian I don't agree that the US ACA is a "first-step to universal coverage".

"the "Care Card" is the same for all, regardless of circumstance."

That means that if a person is shit out of luck homeless, has heavy duty social problems, and yet community outreach can communicate and guide them to medical care, they'll get it. Community outreach is somewhat synchronized with trained medical practitioners whose only priority is helping people get and stay well. If they don't have the card, a card will be produced along with other Canadian identification papers that guarantee basic rights.

This has no resemblance to the US ACA. They are different kinds of things.

The *only* pro-ACA argument that I consider valid is the argument that it allows individual states to institute universal health care plans, if they so choose. Perhaps too little has been said about this. Universal health care in Canada happened that way, the germs of which were first (consequentially) sowed by a socialist oriented provincial gov't in Saskatchewan. But it wasn't just that. In fact Canada was blessed by a socialist/liberal leaning culture at the time, and a massive and substantial group of Canadians rallied to the patriotic call of UN Peacekeeping missions (as international outreach) and so on in that leftist/socialist vein.

[REP]

121. I'm so glad you are getting well!

I'm a big fan of your country (and its movies).

I'm sure your doctors have talked to you about this, but just in case: since you have arthritis and a kidney problem, you need to be careful about taking non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (like ibuprofen, naproxyn, etc) - they're nephrotoxic (that is, very hard on the kidneys and make kidney disease worse). If your doctors haven't talked to you about using these drugs, please ask them about it - even though your country has an excellent health care system, it'd be better if you used it a little less for a while!

Continue to get well!

[Diclotican]

133. REP

REP

How nice - you are a big fan of my country - even though I'm not sure why Norway is your favorite country of choice - it is just another country like many others ... And we do have making some good movies the last couple of years - we do have some great actors who is able to get all the way to Hollywood if they choose, and possible do a better job than some of the Hollywood stars of today.... With less show on the side than the american ones (infighting, drug use violence both home and outside the home and all that)....

Yeah - I know - It is very hard on the kidneys to take this type of meeds - specially Ibuprofen who no kidney like to have in the system - and as one of my kidneys is doing the job for two (the left one is smaller than the right one, and the doctors are not sure why, but the result is that the right one have to work harder than the left one, to get the "garbage" out of the system - and when the kidney failed - it really got bad for a while) It on the plan to get an appointment with the doctor this week or the next week - and I will ask him about this things - and many other things - when it come to my diet example.. I think it is important to turn the ship around and eat more healthy in the future... The arthritis can be very painfully when it hit - and If I can do something to make it less possible to surface then so much better for me. I can always learn how to make better, and more healthy food for myself, even if it takes some more time to make it.. I do have the time..

Our health care system are maybe not perfect - but compared to many other nations, it is far better, and I hope the new government (conservatives, but I think "our" conservatives is to the left of Obama for the most part) will try to do their best to make our Universal Health Care even better than it have been up to now.. I doubt they will turn the key to the private actors anytime soon.. The support for Universal Health Care is strong in Norway - even though some is crying about how ineffective and stupid it is...

Diclotican

[REP]

156. "Den Brysomme Mannen" is a really good movie

I really can't think of a bad Norweigan movie I've seen - even the silly ones are good!

I have many favorite countries, and your country is one that just seems, well, interesting: the language, the history, the landscape, the people and the more reasonable government.

I have severe kidney disease and arthritis, too so I'm not only sympathetic; I have an idea of what you're going through. The good news is that managing kidney disease isn't a terrible burden (you're allowed as much coffee as you like!). It may even be possible you had a "temporary" (acute) problem due to your infection and things return to normal once you recover fully. I hope that is so!

I am one of the lucky ones with insurance and I will be having my second shoulder surgery for my arthritis in 11 days (I had the other shoulder fixed 8 months ago).

Again, all my best wishes for a full and quick recovery, and for good news from your doctors. If you have any questions about managing chronic kidney disease, please feel free to ask me.

[Diclotican]

160. REP

REP

Ah one of them movies - yeah we do have some special movies - and Den brysomme mannen is verry weird for some reason... And if you want "silly" ones, you have to encounter two gentlemen who is dead now - but who have given countless hours of fun over more than 40 years - the two gentlemen name is Harald Eide Sten jr And Rolf Wesenlund - two men who made a lot of history both before and after the introduction of TV in Norway - but beware - it goes fast around the corners in Norwegian - and I am afraid of it would be lost in translation if you are not carefully and is trying to se them more than one time... We do have a lot of other actors, who is great, but at the spur of the moment, it is the two ones I remember.

This little sc etch was made by the two gentlemen at the spur of the moment - in fact they had no script at all - it was just made on the spot - and is today one of the classic in Norwegian comedy after more than 40 years...

Yeah - the kidney thing kind of scared me, as I got really sick from it.. But hopefully I am able to manage it now - by turning to more healthy things to do - and to drink a lot of water.. I have quit coffee some year ago - mostly because I often is staying up all night if I drink it to late -And I prefer a cop of tea...
Hopefully this was one of a kind - and I hope that I will never experience that again - the infection is over for the most part, even though I am on some medication for the moment - but I am better now than I was before, that is for sure...

The arthritis is less of a burden than the kidney but it is times I wish I had not having that illness - mostly because it is really painfully when cold, and the winters tend to be that, cold and far to long to my taste Oh well I manage that too

I hope you also get better - hopefully the surgery you will be given will give you less pain and better health overall - it is important for your health to have less pain and better health.. And it sounds great you also have insurance, and coverage enough to not get broke in the proses

I might ask you about managing the kidney thing - for the moment I'm not sure what to do really - I think I will try to get an appointment to my doctor - and try to ask him also about how to manage it better than I have being doing lately.

We do have some interesting history - even though most of the time we have been under other nations, like Denmark and Sweden - We had the same crown with Denmark for more than 400 years - who gave us a lot of common straits - specially when it came to the language. The language most people are using bokmål is in most cases a Norwegian form of danish - of course over the last century and a half Norwegian have changed a lot from what it was before 1814 - but most Norwegians and danish can communicate with each other with any problems, as long as it is not with the border with Germany - then we have to talk english - as many believe Norwegian to be swedish - and swedish are for some reason not something they want to talk to
We do have great landscapes here in Norway - thats for sure - and a lot of nature to be in, if we choose to do it. And it exist many places in our nature who no tourist walk - and who is great to put it bluntly... You can have your Grand Cannon - we have some nature pearl who is smaller than Gran Cannon, but who is as great as them

For the most part, we do have reasonable government - even our conservatives is to the left of the Democratic Party for the most part - and I doubt they will turn 180 degrees the next 4 years when it comes to the grand scam of things - maybe in the details - but I doubt they are willing to ditch everything we have managed to build up over the last 100 years... Even if the fear of communism have subsided a lot since 1991 - for the most part, it is just common sense to have a welfare system - and universal health care, and that is something every political party is in agreement about

Diclotican

[MADem]

125. Here's an experience of a loved one with Commonwealth Care (AKA Romneycare, precursor to Obamacare)

Family member suffered a brain stem stroke.

By a small miracle, he was not paralyzed, but he had severe deficits on one side as well as speech. He was hospitalized for several days in intensive care, checked by nursing staff around the clock, and had not one, but two, primary physicians assigned to his case. He was treated in the hosptal with the standard scans, MRIs, what have you, blood thinners and a measure of physical therapy was started nearly immediately.

He was then transferred (ambulance ride) to one of the best rehab hospitals in the world--it was the same place where Theresa Heinz went after her incident. There, he received unbelievable physical/occupational therapy, medications, massage therapy, psych eval and support, etc. He "worked" an eight hour day, seven days a week, with therapists, and ate pretty good too, once he got out of "eating school" (strokes impact swallowing, so he had an eating coach in hospital and initially in rehab). Many in our family would visit around mealtime and we were permitted to go to the cafeteria, buy a meal and sit in the dining room with our loved one and share a meal--made the whole process very nice. We'd spend the evening together chatting/watching TV--very comfortable arrangement.

To make what could be a very long story short, his therapists took him from mumbling/slurring to speaking clearly to singing, and from a wheelchair to a walker, from having no use of one arm to being able to write without any noticeable change in handwriting. At that point, he was discharged to a "lesser" rehab facility.

At the "lesser" facility, he got less rehab, but it was all focused on walking. This facility got him using the walker with aplomb. He had sufficient balance that they allowed him to be discharged if he had help. He was itching to go home so we stepped up to provide the "help," to include therapy sessions to encourage the walking. He could have had a visiting nurse, but that was eschewed because family was available. He then went to "outpatient" therapy. The outpatient therapy consisted of getting him from a walker to a four point cane, with a brace. That's where he's at, at this point, and his doctors say it is a miracle he lived, kept his marbles, and was able to recover sufficiently to perambulate at all.

Oh, this poor guy was unemployed....had no insurance...and his unemployment insurance had run out. He had applied for some assistance but it hadn't kicked in yet. He was in a bad situation, make no mistake.


Anyway....cost to him for all that medical treatment and ongoing care?

$0.00

He's disabled, make no mistake, but not so much that he doesn't volunteer to help brain injured and PTSD vets in his community. He's able to drive, so he drives them around, makes sure they get to appointments, and things of that nature. He's also back to singing with friends, and his voice gets better every year.

[Nye Bevan]

127. See, that's how Romney totally, monumentally screwed up in 2012.

Instead of running away from Obamacare, he should have taken credit for it. He should have been the one putting out stories like this. He should have said, look what a great system I designed, it's working well, even President Obama is copying it.

[MADem]

139. Thank heavens his judgment sucked so bad!

That WAS his initial plan, you know--that is why he cravenly implemented Commonwealth Care in MA. He didn't really give a shit about people, he was looking to check a block and prove a point. He wanted to play the "Even Democrats in the People's Republic of the Commonwealth love me!" card.

We didn't love him--we hated him. RMoney told lies (and they were outright lies) that he could bring business to MA with his Bain connections (truth of the matter was that fewer businesses were started while he was governor, and the population DECREASED too--people moved away to the south and west--we lost Barney Frank's seat as a consequence).

His opponent lacked money and committed the "crime" of being female, and MA had a glass ceiling when it came to female politicians in front-line jobs (that it took Elizabeth Warren to break). Also, everyone knows that the legislature in MA can halt ANY governor's ambition--Romney vetoed most stuff, and the legislature just laughed, mocked, and overrode his veto more often than not! It's part of the reason why "blue" Mass is willing to elect the odd GOP governor...they mix it up a bit, but they can't be total assholes or they end up in Perpetually Thwarted Land!

Unfortunately for Mittsy-Shittsy, the GOP kept marching to the right even faster than he could keep up with them. And that old "Triangulation" game no longer worked!

I don't think he would have swayed anyone from the Dem team to his Presidential cause, even with the "Romneycare," since the Dems were already committed to some sort of health care system to cover most, if not all, Americans. And his craven, "anything to win" ambition was clearly plastered all over that program.

I think it is funny as hell that he did the right thing for the wrong reasons!

[Diclotican]

137. MADem

MADem

That sounds like a great story - and it is great he was given the support, and health care he needed to get better - and it is somewhat of a miracle that he got on his feet so to say - and to be able to get home again... And it is also great that your family was willing to step up and help him in his recovery - not everyone have THAT

And, it is also GREAT that the money he had to pay for it all - was zero - not a dime from his own pocket...

And it is also great to read, that even if he IS disabled - he is able to drive around - and helping others who might are not as well as he is.. It is great that it is not all bleak and bad in the US, some states is more progressive than others... But I do believe Universal Health Care for all, would be the best way for US in the future....

Diclotican

[MADem]

149. We are not going to get that. It's not going to happen. At least not soon, and maybe not ever.

Americans as a group are just not willing to take on the tax burden that Norwegians and other European countries endure to be assured of "universal" care. It is an onerous burden, from the perspective of US taxpayers, and you'll sooner see a pig fly than an agreement that Americans fork over even more to support a health care infrastructure. People who run on reducing the tax burden are popular, because most people think "It will never happen to ME." Until, of course, it does.

This system is a compromise, but it is a compromise that works for most. Not all, but most. I hope that the administration keeps looking for economies to bring costs down further. That, and success stories, will gradually erode resistance to the program from the angry "Mah MONEY" diehards.

People get angry at me (and behave as though I am a "cheerleader" against Universal Health Care) when I tell this simple truth, but that's what it is--a simple truth. Americans as a nation are just not motivated to cough up the same money in taxes that you guys do. Look at Johnny Depp, the wealthy actor who has associated himself with progressive causes on occasion--when Hollande upped the taxes in France, he didn't say "Oh, well, that level of contribution is just part and parcel of being part of this lovely society," he said "Fuck this--I'm leaving! No more of MY money to support this bullshit!" He wouldn't even be "double-taxed" (which is the justification of some for his actions--and that's just not true) as he would get a tax credit in USA for any foreign taxes he paid, but as far as he was concerned "The Taxes Were Too Damned High!"

People are cheap, often as not. The more money people have, too, the more they want to hang on to it. People who make less, who live on less, who don't prioritize the accrual of great big bank accounts, just don't care as much. They see the value of sharing the burden.

I don't expect to see universal health care in my lifetime in USA, to be blunt about it.

As for my family member's care at home, had we not been there for him, the visiting nurse would have been--but the quality of his care would not have been continuous and it wouldn't have been as personal. He would have likely done fine with that level of help, but we didn't want to take the chance and enough of us were retired and able to help, so we did. Also, the fact that we were eager to help with the therapy certainly sped up the process; though I think he would have gotten to the same place eventually all on his own.

[Diclotican]

154. MADem

MADem

You might be right - at least for now - about the possibility of an universal health care for everyone in the US - But the tax brackets I "endure" is not that much really, even as I live on disability and have not exactly the biggest economy to live by I pay my share of the taxes - and even is getting some back every year thanks to our tax refund system...

But then again, US is a country founded on refusing to pay higher taxes on tea from India - so I guess that would be a troublesome trick to overcome for most americans - that Universal Health Care would mean you have to pay little more in taxes to solve the difference...

When I was 18 I had not exactly a plan to end up on disability - or to be that sick as I got a mount ago - but I guess that is something everyone do not plan for when they are young...

I do not believe you to be cheerleader against universal health care - I think you might be more realistic than many others out there at the moment - but I do hope - in the future, maybe not in your lifetime, that enough americans understand that Universal Health Care is not that of a danger to your future.. It is all depended of how you use your tax money - and I suspect if some of the budget for Pentagon and the 15-16 different systems who work against "all type of enemies" was put to better use - lets say something like a universal Health care system - it would work its way from the federal system to the state level in a few years.. After all the Pentagon budget would still be nr 1 if you cut 30 -40 percent of the budget and spend the money on something else than weapons.. Of course it would mean that Pentagon would have to reduce a lot of weapons and even stop some of the more exotic weapons out there....

Money is the root to many devils was a saying back home - and I suspect it is - a root to many devils out there, as greed make decent people evil as hell...

But it was great to hear, that your family member was able to getting the help he needed when he got really sick - it it great to have a family who care for each other.. And I believe your family member also is better with your solution to the problem, rather than having a nurse wisting now and then.. Even if the quality is good - it is not the same as having some who could give him continuous help all the time he was in need for it.... And to speed up the proses..

I think he is thankfully for the help he have been given by you all too..

Diclotican

[MADem]

155. I found this comparison between tax rates in Norway, in my state (blue Mass), and

"God's Waiting Room" Florida (which has been known to mess up US presidential elections, as we all remember): http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/comparing-tax-rates-in-the-us-and-norway.html

This guy is IMPOSSIBLY rich, as far as I'm concerned! I couldn't imagine having this kind of income--I wouldn't know how to spend that much, even with a heavy tax burden!

So, how much higher are taxes in Norway? We looked at Davor Sutija's 2009 income tax return—available, like all tax returns in Norway, on the Internet—and calculated a rough estimate for what he would have paid if he lived in the U.S. The CEO of Oslo-based Thinfilm isn't rich enough to be touched by Norway's 1.1 percent wealth tax, but he still paid far more in taxes in Norway than he would have in America, even if he lived in a high-tax state like Massachusetts. Leonard Levine, a C.P.A. in Boca Raton, Florida, and Martin Wikborg, a tax attorney in Ernst & Young's Oslo office, helped us with the calculations.....

The breakdown is at the link--it's from 2 years ago, but that is a hefty paycheck!!!

Florida has no state tax, so they keep more of their money. MA has a state tax so they pay more (they get better services too, IMO). Norway is ten percentage points ahead of MA in the "tax burden" game. I just can't see Americans--as a group--agreeing to pay that much more.

I think if there was a way to bring the costs down so that there wasn't such a profound increase in the tax burden, that more people would be encouraged to support a universal plan.

Maybe one day--we can only hope!!

[Diclotican]

173. MADem

MADem

I know - the taxes is the biggest issue I think, and something that would break the neck on Universal Health Care for the foreseeable future in the US..

But as you point out - you can always hope for the future - even the long run, that it is possible to do it in the US too... I do not believe americans would regret getting universal health care to mutch... given the chance I mean...

Diclotican

[MADem]

206. I have to agree--the trick is getting it in the first place! nt

[Diclotican]

211. MADem

MADem

The only thing we all have to hope for - is that somewhat it is possible to make it stick - and then americans will discover (hopefully) that Universal Health Care is not so bad after all... But the trick is as you say - to getting it in.....

Diclotican

[Rosa Luxemburg]

132. American people accept a corporate dictatorship

If all people protested we might have universal healthcare but people don't. They seem to accepted the fact that the big corporations may a profit out of healthcare. I live in the UK and Canada and loved their health sytems. I think if we had won the house last time we may have got further towards a single payer health system?

[barbtries]

136. Diclotican,

you are one of the sweetest people on DU - i'm so glad you come here and share your perspective with us, and so sorry for your terrible experience.
of course you are right. here, it would be okay, i'm getting healthy again, let's look up a bankruptcy lawyer and see if there's a way to stay housed in spite of this unmanageable debt.

[Diclotican]

140. barbtries

barbtries

Very kind words from you there - I try to stay civilized on DU, and other message boards I might encounter - And this have been in the making for a while as I had been reading about how difficult it is to be given a decent health care in the US, without going broke in the prosess... I would say I'm surprised about how many who have written on this piece - it was just meant as a little piece for telling what my experience with the Universal Health Care was. It is not that scaring and dangerous as some want it to be - on the opposite I would say.. And I am very gratefully that I could walk out the hospital doors - without a bill worth ten of thousands of NKR - maybe more as I doubt the med I was given was cheap ones...

It must be sad - to have to contact a bankrupt lawyer - to save your house from being taken from you, because of an illness.. That should be as natural as your 2 amendment that you should be able to keep your house - and not given more debt that you can afford to pay down - or not to pay anything for being in a hospital...

Diclotican

[liberal_at_heart]

144. thank you so much for your story. We have to have universal health care here in the US. There just

is no other choice. The Affordable Care Act is a bandaid and it gives too much power and money to the insurance companies. If we don't get universal health care our health care system will continue to degrade until there is nothing left. I have always fought for universal health care and I will never give up. I will keep fighting for it until we get it.

[Diclotican]

147. liberal_at_heart

liberal_at_heart

I agree - ACA is just a band aid - I doubt even Obama was daring to go for Universal Health Care - specially as the House would have turned anything like this down the tube... ACA is something in the right direction of sorts - but as you point out - it does more to make power to the insurance companies, than for giving the ones who _need_ medical attention the help they need... And I fear that specially the republicans if they get power in the White house again - will do anything they can to erode and destroy what ACA as best as they can... They HATE ACA as it as, and I believe they also Hate the President even more than they hate ACA....

Universal Health Care is the way to go, if you want a decent future for everyone in the US.. and as long as the nut jobs in the gop is doing what they are doing - it will be a hard time to get it too... And it is great you is fighting for universal health care for everyone - it is the ONLY decent way to go if you want a greater future for everyone in the US...

Diclotican

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. You heal, and if you were in the US

You are right, it would have broken the bank, and then some.

[Diclotican]

151. nadinbrzezinski

nadinbrzezinski

Indeed - I heal one day at the time - instead of worrying about the bills I can concentrate of starting the road to health again

Diclotican

[ErikJ]

158. Can somebody edit this?

This is such a good post it should be widely distributed in the media. It would be nice if somebody would take the time to properly edit this. I'm rather poor at proper grammar and I'm a very slow typist.
And it would also be a English learning experience for Diclotican.

[Diclotican]

161. ErikJ

ErikJ

I know the grammar is bad - but I warned about it in the start of the writing - that my grammar would be less than stellar. And I have always been honest about my own short comings when it comes to the noble english language

I'm not sure about given it to the media - but maybe it could make some think over "there" if someone was able to write it with better english than I am able to do ?.. It is just a small piece I was typing down, to maybe tell how MY experience in the Universal Health Care system was.. Far from what many americans seen to believe, with death panels and it all...

Diclotican

[ErikJ]

163. Lots of vicious propaganda out there.

And half of Americans believe it. President Reagan in 1965 warned that Medicare would lead to communism and half Americans believed him but now its very very popular. We just need to extend it to ALL Americans but the Reichwing propagandists wont have it.
Your letter widely distributed might help to alleviate the lies. Maybe even the magazine editors would edit it themselves for clarity. Thanks for sharing and enlightening!

[Diclotican]

166. ErikJ

ErikJ

It is sad, when half the population is scared to hell about something like Universal Health Care, who is not exactly communism - it is just common sense to have it... Yeah it will means a lot of more taxes for everyone - and hat would be a hard case to solve I suspect - but still... I suspect it would be worth it - if enough americans could be able to get medical attention - and to be healthy again....

It might be a good idea - to distrube it somewhat - even though it was not my meaning to do that - it was just meant to be here on DU.. But of course if it could mean people getting a new though in their head - it might do some good too...

Diclotican

[tiredtoo]

223. If it were me

I would send it just as it is. the occasional grammatical errors and/or spelling mistakes make it more authentic and meaningful to me.

[Egalitarian Thug]

162. Thank you for sharing this with us. Just the fact that you were admitted and held in

the hospital for 3 weeks shows how much better the care is outside WorkCamp America ©. In WorkCamp America © you would have been stabilized and shoved out the door with a prescription and told to come back in 2 or 3 weeks if the problem persists and you don't die in the meantime.

I'd also like to apologize for the thread jack.

[Diclotican]

167. Egalitarian Thug

Egalitarian Thug

Do not worry about it - I think I managed to get my point out anyway

When I finally got into the exam room and they understood how bad I was - they was fast and good in what they did - and I was admitted very fast - or at least as fast as they could do it properly. I doubt I would have been given the same attention in the US, as you point out, I would possible just be stabilized and told to come back - if it persist and I was not dead in the meantime.. I am gratefully for the help I was given there - and I as also gratefully I'm back home, well enough to be here instead in a hospital bed - it is boring to be in a hospital when you are starting to recovering from a ilness...

Diclotican

[Uncle Joe]

180. Thanks for sharing Diclotican,

I hope you are doing better.

[Diclotican]

183. Uncle Joe

Uncle Joe

Thank you - I'm getting better day for day - not exactly up to speed yet - but I am starting to get where I want to be again.. Even thought the body tend to need more sleep than usually - I recovering from it all at least

Diclotican

[fadedrose]

186. Your English is beautiful

I very much enjoyed reading every line of your post.

Hope you recover completely. Keep us posted..

Thanks for sharing and caring about us - Seems like our own "mighty" US government doesn't care, but our President is trying to make it better.

[Diclotican]

190. fadedrose

fadedrose

Thank you - some on DU once wrote I almost wrote poetic when I use the english language - about that I'm not sure - but at least I try to do my best - even as the grammar is somewhat off most of the time

I will recover - it goes better, day for day - and hopefully after some fysio I would be able to live as I did before - with some changes to my diet and my life in general.. Nothing like a real scare to your health to make you decide it might be a good idea to change lifestyle I guess.

Your current President is at least trying - even though ACA is a very watered down law - who could have been stronger - and better for all of the americans, it is a little baby step in the right directions... And I suspect the GOP will do their best, if they got the White House again, to ruin what little progress have been made with ACA when the time comes..

Diclotican

[fadedrose]

191. Poetic prose, yes, that's how you write...

Thanks for your heartfelt reply....

[Diclotican]

195. fadedrose

fadedrose

I try to reply to everyone, it is the only right thing to do - and it is always interesting to se how others look at things too.

Diclotican

[Triana]

192. Thank you for sharing this. Even in your non-native language, it makes sense and...

... I appreciate the time and effort it took for you to write it!

The way your country is handling health care is the only moral, sane way.

I wish the U.S. wasn't so unreasonable, ignorant and crazy about this. Ugh!

[Diclotican]

194. Triana

Triana

Thank you - I just wanted to tell the little story about when i needed help - and got it - under the universal Health Care system - something I do hope that the US would have one day - even if it will take a long time before it is a reality

I think universal health care is the only reasonable way to go in a civilized country, it is the only decent and moral way to go - to have a decent, universal health care.. If every nation on the face of the earth have had universal health care - that would mean it would have been less money to wars - and to weapons....

I have always been wondering why americans are so afraid of change, when it comes to universal health care, even if would mean a better life for everyone in the US...

Diclotican

[Triana]

220. "I have always been wondering why americans are so afraid of change"

We are controlled by a Regressive party (GOP/Republican) whose stock in trade is Fear. Even when they're not in power, the greedy corporations, wealthy people and the financial sector who own them resist any constructive change - particularly if it means a better life for everyone. They're only interested in more money for themselves (and everyone else in their opinion can go to Hell). The ignorance, selfishness, lack of conscience and narcissism is what they're notorious for.

It's sad. We could do so much better. But we're held back from it by these "Neanderthals", as our Vice President called them. And he was right. They are neanderthals.

[Skittles]

197. thanks for writing this, Diclotican

from a proud half-Norwegian

[Diclotican]

198. Skittles

Skittles

Your welcome Skittles Feel free to emigrate to Norway if you ever got the chance to do it..

Diclotican

[Doctor_J]

202. You would have lost your home in the US

Glad you live in a civilized nation. And glad you're better

[Diclotican]

209. Doctor_J

Doctor_J

I know, it is scary to think about - that I would have lost my humble home, because of a medical bill...

And thankfully I am getting better, even if the body are little tired and I are not able to do what I want for the moment - it was a hard turn to experience.. But at least I am alive and recovering from my illness - not dead in a coffin...

Diclotican

[Doctor_J]

218. I think this is the way the president & Dems should have pitched SP UHC here

"No one will ever lose their home or declare bankruptcy due to an illness. And I mean no one, and I mean ever. Do whatever you want, but include that provision.

Half of the bankruptcies in this country are due to medical bills. That is a disgrace

[Lobo27]

219. I have friend that lives in Monterrey, Mexico.

He is the only working member of the family, pays his income tax and his property tax. He roughly makes 15k a year it may be a lot down there. Anyways in January his mother got really sick, she developed diverticulitis in the large intestine, and she ended up requiring three surgeries.

And simply because he paid taxes, and because he reported her as family member. All her expenses were covered. Everything even the medications.

For all their problems down their, he told me that by the end of the year Mexico will achieve universal healthcare. Pretty good for a country of over 100mil.

[Godot51]

224. In Japan...

In Japan we have a National Health system that not many in the West talk about or are familiar with. It would take too long to describe it and explain how it works (and, sadly, occasionally doesn't work) but suffice to say it has made me a true believer in public healthcare.

At root of the system is all who join it must pay in. There is some variance of payment according to income and/or age. And one isn't required need join it, if you wish you can pay all medical expenses out of your own pocket or rely on private insurance.

In general most people join in because it's a good deal.

Most doctors, nurses and medical workers of all levels are well trained, kind and helpful. (One of my various teaching jobs is teaching English to nursing students. It is a required course for all.)

Most hospitals are clean, well maintained and up to date.

You are free to choose which hospital you go to and most patients are accepted without an appointment or a referral.

Since many hospitals are privately owned and tend to specialize in one or a few medical areas (but still working within the "system&quot there is some problem for emergency patients, usually in going to the correct hospital for the patient's problem.

For a couple like my wife and me, self employed or part time teachers of "middle age" we pay about 30% of the bill while the National Health pays 70%. This ratio is different as we age.

We pay in several times a year and, since my wife and I have no dependents living at home, it's quite reasonable, less than $3000 total per year for the both of us.

In 2010 I required a knee replacement. I won't bore you with the details but the operation was a success, the hospital staff was incredibly kind and helpful (and even the hospital food was excellent, an amazing thing).

For the hospital stay (10 days), the care, the operation and the room (and the good food) I paid (out of my pocket, my 30% responsibility) about $600. For the rehab which I continued as an out-patient I paid about $5 for a 45 minute session (5 days a week for a few months). For every check up with a doctor (once a week) I paid another $5.

The total bill to me was around $1000. The National Health (to which I have been paying in for over 30 years) paid the other 70%.

Some of you have had knee replacements in the U.S. and you know how much it costs. I have looked it up but the prices vary so much that I can't come up with a definitive price but I'd say "a lot" or "too much" about sums it up.

[cbdo2007]

228. How much do you pay in taxes for your Universal coverage?

That would be the interesting part. This wasn't "free" like you are insinuating, so I'm curious to know how much it actually costs you to have health coverage.

[Diclotican]

263. cbdo2007

cbdo2007

I pay 25 percent of my income to taxes - who also goes to our universal health care - I am living on disability so my tax bracket is less than say if I had been working - then I might have had a 35 percent tax bracket on a regular salary..

Of course, all in Norway have to pay into our Universal Health Care system - by taxes but this is a system that works in Norway - not perfect, but the system do have a great support by the big majority of the people in Norway....

I'm not sure to break it down to a monthly basis how much it cost me, to have universal health care, but I guess Statisisk sentral burå Our statistic office would know it if they want to break it down for everyone in Norway... And to be honest - I have never really been thinking about it either - I pay my taxes - and when/if I get sick I will be given the best care I need to get well...

Diclotican

[GreenPartyVoter]

229. I am glad you were able to get medical care and now are on the mend. :^)

[Diclotican]

264. GreenPartyVoter

GreenPartyVoter

Thank you

Diclotican

[eridani]

230. Your grammar and spelling are better than those of a couple of US Congress members

What do you call a person who speaks only one language?

An American. In our defense, you can travel 3000 miles here and never encounter a need to know a language other than English. If you travel abroad, so many other people in the world speak English as a second language, and their English is always better than our feeble assaults on their languages.

[Diclotican]

265. eridani

eridani

Thank you - yeah I have seen a few of your finest in the US congress speaking - and have to say - I'm not exactly to impressed by them... But then again, I'm more used to british english (proper english) than american english who in most cases is different from other forms of english.... Not to say your former President Bush, who really was able to ruin even a single setence with his "amazing" form of english...

I think in many cases we learn english as our second language early - and most teachers I have had - have been very vivid about using proper english - not american slang - but ENGLISH as in UK british. One teacher I once had in high school was strict about the use of proper british in writing.

Most americans have no interest in learning other languages I guess - but then again some learn other languages fast when they have to - I have known a few americans over the last decade who at least try to learn Norwegian as best as they can - when they are in Norway. Some manage the language very well - some have problems with it, and would be very gratefully when I try to help them a little....

Diclotican

[LadyHawkAZ]

234. I have a friend in Norway right now being treated for throat cancer

She is deeply grateful for her country's healthcare system.

[Diclotican]

266. LadyHawkAZ

LadyHawkAZ

Hopefully your friend will get better - cancer is a nasty illness - and expensive to mend if you do not have access to universal health care...

I am also deeply gratefully for my country's Health Care system - it is not perfect - but when you are in need of it - you have access to it, and in most cases you will get better, or recover to full strength again..

Diclotican

[dionysus]

236. it wasn't free... you paid for it with your taxes.. came out on top, and thats how it should be

[Diclotican]

267. dionysus

dionysus

I know - I have paid into the system many years - and when I needed it - I was able to get the medical attention I was in need of. But I have not been paying it out of my own pocket - I paid it by the tax system - as it should be too

I would much more prefer to pay the taxes - and get universal health care when I am in need of it - instead of being dead because the hospital refused to give med medical attention.... And in the worst case Scenario I could have been that - dead becouse of the kidney failure...

Diclotican

[TygrBright]

240. Very glad you are recovering, Diclotican!

It sounds as though you had many issues happening in a chain, which can be very hard to deal with. But, as you point out, not nearly as devastating in a place like Norway which still has a social contract in working order.

Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

appreciatively,
Bright

[Diclotican]

260. TygrBright

TygrBright

It was indeed many issues happening in a chain reaction of sorts - and I am not sure what started it all to be honest - but at least I was able to get medical attention - and recover for it all.. And I was never in fear of loosing what I have in my life because of insurance bills from the hospital either...

The Social contract is in working order here in Norway - at least for the most part it is - sometimes it fails - but for the most part it does it job - and if you are sick, you will get the help you need..

Diclotican

[kenny blankenship]

246. We have Universal Rent Extraction

There are people in your country working in medicine and administration who would be millionaires, multimillionaires, perhaps even billionaires if you had our system. But since you don't, they will never be allowed to reach their full potential. As American Liberals, not Socialists, we are dedicated to the ideal of Freedom, which means the FULL, UNFETTERED AND LIMITLESS REALIZATION OF INDIVIDUAL POTENTIAL. We want there to be millionaires, multimillionaires and billionaires in this country; and all fields of human endeavor and utility maximization are equally appropriate arenas, we believe, for the full flourishing of individual talent and the unrestricted pursuit of happiness here. That is why we say "there are no free lunches." Giving away free first rate health care like you received in Norway, to someone who couldn't really afford it, means that someone who can afford it will pay twice: once for you, and once again to receive health care for themselves that will be not as good as could be if it were reserved strictly for those who can afford the best. As American Liberals, we are committed to for profit hospitals, to pharmaceutical companies motivated to innovate by colossal profit margins unchecked by the heavy hand of government collective bargaining or bulk pricing, and to the central importance of private for-profit insurance corporations, who do nothing at all to make people healthy, metering the delivery of health care, raking in one sixth of our GDP. Insurance companies are sacred to us, as are our banks. We will have nothing to do with your guaranteed Universal Health Care, for that would impede the full and development of the individuals who run our hospital corporations, our pharmaceutical corporations and our insurance corporations, as well as their shareholders. It would condemn high net worth individuals to the same standard of care lavished on garbage collectors, teachers and IT administrators - and onerously TAX them as well to provide the SAME AND EQUAL STANDARD OF CARE to part time retail sales associates, baristas, lawn maintenance workers, hookers, real estate agents, customer service representatives, waiters, hotel cleaning staff, dry wall installers, traveling salesmen, migrant farm workers, small businessmen, helicopter pilots, karate instructors, struggling daycare operators, ballet dancers, short order cooks, taxi drivers, graphic designers, graduate students, taxidermists, owner operator truckers, dishwashers, cashiers and bag boys, rent-a-cops and mall security details, nails salon glamor consultants and hairdressers, exterminators and varmit trappers, scrap metal salvage workers, dog walkers and cat sitters, birthday party clowns and magicians, psychotherapists and phone sex operators, as well as to marginally employed, and completely unemployable people.

THE SAME AND EQUAL STANDARD OF CARE, I say again! As American Liberals, we reject this redistribution of profits and income CATEGORICALLY. American Liberals are interested in equality of opportunity, and the chips fall where they may.

And that is why I am a Socialist.

[Diclotican]

261. kenny blankenship

kenny blankenship

Okay... Im not sure how to respond to your answer there.... So I might as well not do it at all....

Diclotican

[davidpdx]

253. I appreciate hearing your experience with healthcare in Norway

I live in South Korea and we have a national healthcare system where we pay a premium every month (about 5.8%) or if you are not employed you can get individual coverage with the same benefits. Essentially all you have to do is go into a clinic and show your card and you can be seen by a doctor of your choice.

As for emergencies, I had one awhile back. My face and lips blew up like a balloon. The next day happened to be a holiday so I had to go to the emergency room. When I arrived I was taken right as a walked in and put in a hospital bed and the doctor began asking me about the swelling. I had an x-ray and CT, came back to the emergency room and was started on medication. They concluded it was some type of allergy, but could only treat it not really figure out what the cause was. I was there around 5 hours. The total bill was $90.

While the ACA isn't perfect, it is a good start given how far behind the US is in providing healthcare. We need to continue to push for universal or single payer. That means solid majorities in both Houses of Congress and a D president.

By the way I am an American living overseas....

[Diclotican]

262. davidpdx

davidpdx

Good to know, that you was given the help you needed - even if the doctors was never really sure what cost your problem in the first place.. Sometimes I suspect even the best doctors is guessing its way true a illness.. They start with one problem and continue to the end result - where the right medication is kicking in and the patient - you, in your case is getting better than you was before....

ACA is a start - a step in the right direction - but it is a long way from ACA to Universal Health Care in the US. And it will take years, if not many decades to archive a single payer system - or Universal Health Care.. One of the biggest hurdles I believe, is the fact that you must pay more taxes to pay for it all.. And as I have understood - americans tend to be allergic when someone is talking about raising taxes..

Diclotican

[Rhiannon12866]

256. K&R! Amazing post and thank you!

And you're right, this extent of care would bankrupt most Americans. Thank you for sharing your experience with us and I'm so glad to hear you're on the mend and back here with us...

[Diclotican]

268. Rhiannon12866

Rhiannon12866

I have to say I never believed I would get that much attentions for my little piece here on DU. It was meant just to point out that Universal Health Care do have some merit - at least in Norway it does - I'm not sure if it is possible to make the same system work in the US - but hopefully it is foreseeable in the future to do that - have a universal health care for everyone in the US... But I am afraid the road to it, is hard and long...

And hopefully I will be here for a long time after a full recovery from my illness, it is at least what I plan to do

Diclotican

[kestrel91316]

259. I hope so, too, but I fear I will not live to see that day.

Your system is just. Ours is not. Ours exists to impoverish the poor and middle class and enrich the already-wealthy.

More "American exceptionalism" at work........

[Diclotican]

269. kestrel91316

kestrel91316

Our system works better than most people believe at least - it does have some quarks here and there - but I have to say - in all it is a good system - who everyone, rich and poor can be given the same care - when you are sick, it doesn't matter if you have a million or nothing in the bank, you are still sick...

The more I get to know "american exceptional ism" the less impressed I am, to be honest...

Diclotican

[DiverDave]

271. 10 days in the hospital=35K for ROOM AND BOARD

Just room and board.
I told them all the docs and nurses could have went to
the Bahamas for 10 days.
Oh, I had insurance then.
I think the total was north of 150K

[Diclotican]

276. DiverDave

DiverDave

That's expensive - just for the room, and board.... Then you also might get some medication on top of that....

15Ok for getting well - thankfully I live in a country with universal health Care...

Diclotican

[DiverDave]

280. I was pretty sick

pnumonia...

[Diclotican]

281. DiverDave

DiverDave

I know - pneumonia is a nasty illness to get - never been that sick as I was then... I really hope I will never experience that again...

I guess my foster father must have been of a whole different "stock" than I am - even if he had pneumonia he was always up 6 in the morning - making breakfast for us and get us to school... But then again, i suspect it for the most part to be pure stubbornness and nothing else that got him up in the morning some days.... He was one of the most stubborn men I have ever known in my life.. A great man who could be gentle as they come - but also stubborn as hell....

And it was the pneumonia that got him in the end - 83 year old 6 year ago... The last 5 year he lived he was sick and was declining in health steady but clearly - and in the end he was just an old man with dementia, a Shadow of himself...

Diclotican

[DiverDave]

289. I couldnt think straight

I had to go in.
I was puking and just a mess...3 days of not recognizing my wife or kids
I left early and went back to work...was weak for 2-3 weeks.
Missed my moms funeral...had a ticket that was non refundable.
That was 485 bucks I had to borrow, then pay back.

[Diclotican]

290. DiverDave

DiverDave

Much the same as I then - was pucking all the time, water, soda, everything just was falling apart so to say....

I guess it will take some time for me to get to full strength again - 3 weeks sounds reasonable - at least from what I have experienced the last couple of days... The body is tired and need a lot of sleep compared to before I got sick...

Sorry about your moms funeral - I have a mother whose days is dated myself - cancer - but for the moment I'm not able to take the trip to wist her - so I am thinking a lot about her now. Hopefully I will be able to at least visit her, before he dies, and be there for her funeral - but I am little afraid of doing it too.. A part of me want to remember her as she was, before he got cancer, the other part want to be there - to at least give here some comfort in her last days....

Diclotian

[Laelth]

278. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth