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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"Leaders Of The 9/11 Commission Say NSA Surveillance Has Gone Too Far!" (Tom Kean/Lee Hamilton)
from the wow dept
One of the key talking points from defenders of the NSA surveillance program is that they had to implement it after the 9/11 Commission revealed "holes" in information gathering that resulted in 9/11. This is a misstatement of what that report actually indicated -- in that it showed that more than enough data had actually been collected, it's just that the intelligence community didn't do anything with it. Either way, it seems that the leadership of the 9/11 Commission -- Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, who were the chair and vice chair of the committee respectively -- have now spoken out against the NSA surveillance efforts. And they don't hold back:
When the Congress and the courts work in secret; when massive amounts of data are collected from Americans and enterprises; when government's power of intrusion into the lives of ordinary citizens, augmented by the awesome power of advanced technologies, is hugely expanded without public debate or discussion over seven years, then our sense of constitutional process and accountability is deeply offended.
Officials insist that the right balance has been struck between security and privacy. But how would we know, when all the decisions have been made in secret, with almost no oversight?
The article goes on in great detail about the problems and calls for a truly public debate. As they note:
We are stronger as a nation when we understand what the government is doing. This does not mean sharing sensitive intelligence with the public. A public debate poses challenges when it involves classified information that dribbles out, obfuscated by misinformation. But there is certainly far more we can discuss openly.
Indeed.
http://www.techdirt.com/
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It's time to debate NSA program
Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton Opinion/Politico
The administration says the program is tightly controlled, but unilateral executive branch action and assurances are not sufficient; we need constitutional checks and balances. The extremely low rate of denial of warrant requests and the fact that in the hearings only the governments side is presented are troubling. The public would benefit from a better, more detailed understanding of the judiciary process.
The Congress, the courts and the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, which the 9/11 Commission recommended, each have critically important roles to play. This board is essential to balancing the impact of the governments security measures in the aftermath of Sept. 11 with our civil liberties. It has taken a decade to get the board up and running. Now that the Senate has confirmed a chairman, it is time for the board to get to work in a transparent manner on this surveillance program.
We are stronger as a nation when we understand what the government is doing. This does not mean sharing sensitive intelligence with the public. A public debate poses challenges when it involves classified information that dribbles out, obfuscated by misinformation. But there is certainly far more we can discuss openly.
President Barack Obama has rightly called for a national discussion, which his administration and Congress should convene. It is unfortunate that this conversation begins only when an unauthorized leaker divulges secrets he has agreed, under penalty of law, to keep. But the issues are now before the public. It is time to trust the American peoples judgment about where to strike the balance between what is, after all, their security and their freedom.
Thomas Kean, former governor of New Jersey, and Lee Hamilton, a former congressman from Indiana, co-chair the Bipartisan Policy Centers Homeland Security Project. Kean was chairman and Hamilton was vice chairman of the 9/11 Commission.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/its-time-to-debate-nsa-programs-94634.html#ixzz2ZyShhpOo
blm
(112,920 posts)the narrative is now Obama is no different than Bush. Except Bush's surveillance was far more widespread and done ILLEGALLY prior to Congress' 2006 bill institutionalizing the program - Bush also allowed illegal wiretapping.
Jeb2016
KoKo
(84,711 posts)truly..
blm
(112,920 posts)as the "Democrat" on the panel. I don't think Snowden KNEW he was being used, but, it's apparent from the beginning that he WAS being used. He didn't reveal anything that many here didn't know was going on by 2002. Every single part of his resume has been as Bush CIA and in firms loyal to Bush. Making Obama 'no different than Bush' does WHAT for the next two elections, KoKo? It is ALWAYS about rewriting history for BushInc and setting up for the next election featuring a Bush.
Jeb2016.
I have a damn great track record when it comes to smelling a BFEE dog and pony show.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Snowden was "set up" to do these leaks because the Bush Family is orchestrating this from the sidelines?
If that's true then why did Obama and Michelle meet twice with the Bushies in Africa and what is this coziness with Poppy Bush at the White House with the glowing speech honoring him for his "Thousand Points of Light" Foundation?
We had Poppy bush saying Clinton was like a Son to him an the Clintons have been very cozy with the Bushies.
So...I just don't get where Snowden fits in with this?
blm
(112,920 posts)What do you think the "Obama is no different than Bush" narrative is doing?
Solly Mack
(90,740 posts)And all they are really saying is let's talk about it (within certain boundaries) and getting this point in -
KoKo
(84,711 posts)But, Tom Kean has spoken out about the "9/11 Commission" not being able to do the job they wanted to because they were so restricted. He didn't need to speak out about that and I don't think that this has to do with Obama ...but, that maybe they are getting push back from those worried that the Executive has taken over too much power.
Solly Mack
(90,740 posts)I think their statement is fairly meaningless.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)How would they be instrumental in trying to bring down Obama over NSA Spying?
And, what about the Whistle Blowers who have been prosecuted by Obama who were trying to warn us the NSA spying had gone too far? Are they some kind of conspiracists who are working with Snowden to bring down Obama? And, Glenn Greenwald is in on it?
Huh?
Solly Mack
(90,740 posts)So I can't answer a question to a comment I never made.
And I never suggested , implied, or said anything like:
So I can't address that either, since it's not my thinking.
You obviously have me confused with someone else.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)out there.
If I misinterpreted...and asked further of what you though...I apologize.
Solly Mack
(90,740 posts)a way to make people feel better about it all.
I don't think it a good idea to hold any expectations about what they said....beyond what they actually said.
We are stronger as a nation when we understand what the government is doing. This does not mean sharing sensitive intelligence with the public. A public debate poses challenges when it involves classified information that dribbles out, obfuscated by misinformation. But there is certainly far more we can discuss openly.
President Barack Obama has rightly called for a national discussion, which his administration and Congress should convene. It is unfortunate that this conversation begins only when an unauthorized leaker divulges secrets he has agreed, under penalty of law, to keep. But the issues are now before the public. It is time to trust the American peoples judgment about where to strike the balance between what is, after all, their security and their freedom.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/its-time-to-debate-nsa-programs-94634.html#ixzz2a6DOEx1r
They're talking about having a public debate about the issues - which in many ways that is what us going on now....and a national discussion - "President Barack Obama has rightly called for a national discussion, which his administration and Congress should convene." So, Congress and the President will discuss it.
They complain about it taking a decade for - " It has taken a decade to get the board up and running. Now that the Senate has confirmed a chairman, it is time for the board to get to work in a transparent manner on this surveillance program." - Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (which the (they) 9/11 Commission recommended) to get a chairman - and how that board can now oversee these issues and to assure the public.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Do you feel what long time DU'er "blm" feels that this is just them working for the Bushies or was it a verification that the "folks who control them" are worried about the People Revolt over these revelations of NSA Global and US National Spying for Profit?
Solly Mack
(90,740 posts)Feel good about that statement?
I'll wait and see what comes of it.
Yes, it is a shame it took this long to address the topic of spying etc..
We'll see.
Here: Just some info on the board
Board established in 2004
June 21, 2013
Obama to meet with privacy, civil liberties board
June 25, 2013
Privacy and Civil Liberties board works to inform public on NSA leaks
July 9, 2013
Former judge admits flaws in secret court
Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board Senate
July 9, 2013
Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, Legal Perspectives Meeting
July 7, 2013
PRIVACY AND CIVIL LIBERTIES OVERSIGHT BOARD Notice of Meeting
KoKo
(84,711 posts)I didn't expect much from them...but, did like that they didn't hammer Snowden and seemed to soften what he did in releasing the info to Press which opens debate rather than accusing him of Treason (as some have)...but that he'd brought an important issue up for the Public to be able to get involved with.
Sometimes...I'm too hopeful for change but I thought they were clear in not going after Snowden the way the Right Wing and Obama and some Democratic Leaders have done.
GeorgeGist
(25,294 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)saying that it's some conspiracy to get Obama orchestrated by the Bush Family.
Kean did say that the "9/11 Commission didn't go far enough" but, I don't have time to get the links right now because gotta get dinner going.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Thanks, KoKo.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)That they thought there needed to be more Public Dialog and that the program had gone beyond what they had recommended in the "9/11 Commission Report."
Thanks!
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Check this out...I've got broccoli to cook...there is a CNN Video at the Link...I couldn't get it to embed here but it works at the site.
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9/11 Commission Chair: "No Question" CIA Attempted "to Impede Our Investigation"
Tom Kean says, "I mean, no question that we again and again and again asked for everything, and we needed it, and we weren't given it."
In its attempts to uncover all materials related to the 9/11 attacks, the 9/11 Commission specifically requested material about the interrogations of Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri. The New York Times has revealed that the CIA destroyed tapes of the two men's interrogation without informing the 9/11 Commission about their existence.
On Saturday, former CIA Deputy Director John McLaughlin told CNN:
,I think it's ludicrous to suggest, in fact, that we withheld anything of consequence from the 9/11 Commission. Anything that was on the tapes that would be relevant to their inquiry was given to them in writing, and the tapes would have simply not advanced their inquiry at all.
In fact, the tapes were highly relevant to the Commission's inquiry. Philip Zelikow -- the former staff director of the 9/11 Commission -- explained: "The Commission was not investigating the treatment of captives. But it did seek information not only about the 9/11 plot, but also any intelligence information about the history and evolution of al Qaeda and its connections to other terrorist entities. Therefore, from the start, the Commission sought to obtain all relevant information gleaned from the interrogation of captives."
This morning on CNN, 9/11 Commission Chairman Thomas Kean there is "no question" the CIA was aware that its now-destroyed videotapes depicting severe interrogations were among evidence being sought by 9/11 Commission investigators, and the destruction of the tapes was an attempt to "impede our investigation":
We asked for every single thing that they had. And then my vice chairman, Lee Hamilton, looked the director of the CIA in the face, and said, Look, even if we haven't asked for something, if it's pertinent to our investigation, make it available to us. And our staff asked again and again of their staff and the tapes were not given to us. So, there was no question.[...]
I mean, no question that we again and again and again asked for everything, and we needed it, and we weren't given it. And so, the only conclusion we can draw is it was withheld from us. And that can only be seen to me as an attempt to impede our investigation.
CIA spokesman Mike Mansfield said recently that the tapes weren't destroyed until 2005 "because it was thought the commission could ask about the tapes at some point." So, the CIA withheld the tapes and destroyed the evidence later, ensuring no one could view them to determine whether they were relevant to the Commission's inquiry.
VIDEO AT LINK:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=979_1198606177
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)All this spying on Americans has gone too far.
k&r
westerebus
(2,976 posts)The two adults have spoken the words that all need hear, we are from the government, we come in peace, we are here to right the wrong, go to sleep, all is well.
More to the point. Control of the narrative to deflect the focus away from center of controversy and than begin injecting as many possibilities and variables while setting up a commission to investigate and report the message chosen that closely mimics the facts but draws a conclusion based on subterfuge.
Short version. Pretty convenient.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)REAL INVESTIGATION.
I get it now. I expected more from what these "Shills of Government Power" ...either WOULD or COULD Deliver!
I get it. Sorry....
westerebus
(2,976 posts)The upside is it tells us the administration is pulling as many strings as it can as fast as it can.
And please keep up the REAL INVESTIGATION as what you post is as real as it is going to get.