Jimmy Carter issues statement on Snowden. "America no longer has a functioning democracy"

[Catherina]

Last edited Thu Jul 18, 2013, 07:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Between Jimmy Carter and George W I-put-the-guarantees-in-there Bush, I know who I stand next to. Period.


NSA affair: Ex-President Carter condemns U.S. snooping

By Gregor Peter Schmitz in Atlanta


Ex-President Carter: "The invasion of privacy has gone too far"

The Obama administration has tried to placate Europe's anger over their spying programs. Not so ex-President Jimmy Carter: The Democrat Carter sharply criticized U.S. intelligence policy. The disclosure by the whistleblower Snowden was "useful."

In the wake of the NSA Scandal, former U.S. President Jimmy Carter has criticized the American political system. "America no longer has a functioning democracy," Carter said Tuesday at a meeting of the "Atlantik-Brücke" in Atlanta.

("Amerika hat derzeit keine funktionierende Demokratie" - literally "America does not have a functioning democracy at this point in time&quot

Previously, the Democrat had been very critical of the practices of U.S. intelligence. "I think the invasion of privacy has gone too far," Carter told CNN. "And I think that is why the secrecy was excessive." With regard to the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, Carter said his revelations were "likely to be useful because they have informed the public."

Carter has repeatedly warned that the moral authority of the United States has declined sharply due to excessive curtailment of civil rights. Last year he wrote in an article in the "New York Times" that new U.S. laws have allowed "never before seen breaches of our privacy by the government."

...

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nsa-affaere-jimmy-carter-kritisiert-usa-a-911589.html

[hr]

"Revelations that top officials are targeting people to be assassinated abroad, including American citizens, are only the most recent, disturbing proof of how far our nation’s violation of human rights has extended. This development began after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and has been sanctioned and escalated by bipartisan executive and legislative actions, without dissent from the general public. As a result, our country can no longer speak with moral authority on these critical issues.

...

At a time when popular revolutions are sweeping the globe, the United States should be strengthening, not weakening, basic rules of law and principles of justice enumerated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But instead of making the world safer, America’s violation of international human rights abets our enemies and alienates our friends.

As concerned citizens, we must persuade Washington to reverse course and regain moral leadership according to international human rights norms that we had officially adopted as our own and cherished throughout the years." - Jimmy Carter

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/25/opinion/americas-shameful-human-rights-record.html

“He’s obviously violated the laws of America, for which he’s responsible, but I think the invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far. I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial. I think the American people deserve to know what their Congress is doing.” - Jimmy Carter

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/us/snowden-lawyer-offer

[cantbeserious]

1. Thank You For Sharing - Kick And Recomnend

eom

[Catherina]

3. Thanks but all thanks go to President Carter who's not afraid to tell the truth

He gets the space next to me under the bus okay?

[struggle4progress]

231. "... No American media outlets reported on the event and it was not clear where Die Spiegel

no American media outlets reported on the event and it was not clear where Die Spiegel got its source from ..."
http://www.inquisitr.com/855289/jimmy-carter-defends-edward-snowden-says-america-has-no-functioning-democracy/

[ProSense]

2. This is a rehash

Jimmy Carter on Snowden: "He's obviously violated the laws of America, for which he's responsible."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023119933

[ljm2002]

4. In other words:

WAAAAHHH! Catherina posted something about the same article as I did, only she highlighted a different part of Carter's comments! How come she gets to make OPs anyway? I'm telling mommy! WAAAHHH!

[ProSense]

24. From the OP:

“He’s obviously violated the laws of America, for which he’s responsible, but I think the invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far. I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial. I think the American people deserve to know what their Congress is doing.” - Jimmy Carter

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/us/snowden-lawyer-offer

Yeah, he "violated the laws of America, for which he’s responsible"

[ljm2002]

33. From the OP:

“He’s obviously violated the laws of America, for which he’s responsible, but I think the invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far. I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial. I think the American people deserve to know what their Congress is doing.” - Jimmy Carter

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/us/snowden-lawyer-offer

Yeah, Carter thinks "that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial."

[Blanks]

119. The headline is deceptive.

It's apparent once a person reads into the article.

Is that what the 'Snowen worshipping crowd' has resorted to? Deceptive headlines.

Carter isn't singing the praises of Snowden. He's merely calling his action 'beneficial'.

The headline could have just as easily read 'Carter acknowledges Snowden violated laws of America''.

[Bobbie Jo]

122. Of course it is.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[NorthCarolina]

138. No fair, your using complete quotes. You are supposed to truncate it by replacing the "," after

"He's violated the laws of America, for which he's responsible" : delete the "," and replace it with a "."

It does change the context of what was truly said, BUT it apparently will somehow make you a better Democrat. Or something like that.

[OnyxCollie]

39. "he 'violated the laws of America, for which he’s responsible'"

Like Bush did with domestic surveillance, torture, and an illegal war.

Did your hero, Obama, hold Bush responsible, ProSense? If not, why, and how does it help America to let him go free?

[ProSense]

58. I

"Did your hero, Obama, hold Bush responsible, ProSense?

...blame you for voting Obama and for not forcing him to do it. Also, he's the President. "Hero" is the word you reserve for Snowden.

Still, what does that have to do with Carter's comments?

[Maedhros]

94. I don't care if Snowden violated the law.

I do care that the 1st and 4th Amendments are in danger of disappearing.

[Progressive dog]

123. President Carter thinks he violated the law,

the OP pretends the Ex-President is another Snowden worshiper.

[Maedhros]

147. No, the OP thinks that President Carter believes the information leaked by Snowden

to be "useful". In Carter's own words, from the OP:

"I think the invasion of privacy has gone too far," Carter told CNN. "And I think that is why the secrecy was excessive." With regard to the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, Carter said his revelations were "likely to be useful because they have informed the public."

Nowhere does the OP claim that Carter is a "Snowden worshiper." It is pretty clear from Carter's own words that he thinks the leaks were a good thing, though.

[Progressive dog]

148. Partial truths are not truth. nt

[Maedhros]

152. Those are Carter's own words.

They are straightforward.

[Progressive dog]

169. You don't understyand what partial means, obviously

[Maedhros]

171. I'm not following you.

Carter said that Snowden violated the law. He also said that what Snowden revealed is useful.

What am I missing?

[Progressive dog]

173. The OP doesn't say it, it has to be

looked for. The OP link comes up in German. This is what I found on Daily Caller

“America has no functioning democracy,”

and although their headline is the same as the OP, there is no context and somehow they also decided to add a word to the headline quote. (or maybe took one out of the article).

[Maedhros]

178. You are splitting some really, really tiny hairs.

The quote from Carter in German:

""Amerika hat derzeit keine funktionierende Demokratie"

This translates as "America has at the present time no functioning democracy". You are quibbling over the translation of the adverb "derzeit" into "no longer." The translation I found showed it as " presently, currently, now, at the present time, the time being, at present, at this moment." That is not much of a discrepancy - the meaning of the statement is the same in either case.

You are being disingenuous in suggesting that the OP is somehow leaving out a critical piece of information which reveals that President Carter actually didn't say what he said. I can read some German, and I don't see it.

[Progressive dog]

179. How come since Carter spoke in English, der Spiegel only reported in German

and not in English.

Carter’s remarks didn't appear in the American mainstream press but were reported from Atlanta by the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel, whose Washington correspondent Gregor Peter Schmitz said on Twitter he was present at the event. The story doesn't appear in the English-language section of the Spiegel website and is only available in German.

That's from International Business Times and appears to be true.

[muriel_volestrangler]

181. because they are a German magazine

therefore they report primarily in German. Some of their articles get translated into English at a later time.

[Progressive dog]

183. Okay nt

[Maedhros]

184. I don't know why Der Spiegel didn't publish this in their English version.

Maybe they thought English-speaking readers wouldn't be interested, or the story was pushed off the English language version by something else. Why does it matter? Der Spiegel is the pre-eminent source for news and commentary in Germany - I'm not ready to believe that the fabricated the Carter statements.

Besides, how can any reasonably educated American disagree with the notion that our democracy doesn't function? One look at Congress' behavior over the last decade confirms it.

[Progressive dog]

187. So they translated one way and we translate back to English nt

[bvar22]

229. How come since Carter spoke in English, der Spiegel only reported in German ?????

Oh, man. You can't make this shit up!!!

[Progressive dog]

232. No you can't, it's not as if there is no news in English

Might be something was added in the translations.

[bvar22]

233. At this point, dude,

...Walk Away.
Just Walk Away,

....and while you are taking a break,
you might want to look up the meaning of "American Exceptionalism."

and also,
PLEASE, if you ever have the opportunity to actually travel outside the USA,
do NOT buy into the delusion that if you just SHOUT English LOUD ENOUGH,
everybody should understand you.
It is NOT their job to learn English, or provide a translation just for you.

[Progressive dog]

234. I am an American and I think that things said in English

by an former American President should be reported in English. When they are not, I wonder why. When only one German newspaper reports them, and only after translation to German, I wonder why. I have to assume that they are reporting stuff for a German audience, maybe because of German exceptionalism, and I have to wonder why it's posted in a double translation on an American political site. I do expect stuff to be in English here.

[idwiyo]

238. Dear Progressive dog, there is a world outside of US borders. Really. :(

Bad enough? It gets worse! There are COUNTRIES out there where English is NOT an OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. I understand it might come as a shock to you, but apparently their newspapers and magazines cater to their own, non-English speaking public. The bastards!

But wait! It gets even worse! Apparently some of those newspapers and magazines don't believe they should provide TWO copies of everything they print - one in English, and one in whatever 'language' they use for communication in their own country. The HORROR!!!

I think we should just invade them for their own good and force them all to speak English. Queen's English, of course.

Third-Way Loyal Royalist

Idwiyo

Long live the Poodle & GCHQ!

[Progressive dog]

240. American president speaks in America in English

reported in German only after translation. Poster on American political board complains about other poster and "American exceptionalism" because he doesn't speak a particular foreign language.
The horror, the horror.

[idwiyo]

241. You are complaining that GERMAN magazine doesn't cater primarily to English-only speaking public...

because they did not provide a copy of transcript in English... In a German version of the magazine... And your complaint is directed to the poster on DU...

...
...
...

[Progressive dog]

242. No I'm not, I'm complaing about the OP

who uses a German source on an written English site. That shouldn't be hard to understand.

[idwiyo]

243. oh... No foreign language sourses should be allowed because this is American website?

Or is it because you don't know any other languages but English?

[Progressive dog]

244. Jimmy Carter spoke English in the speech

so a German quote will not be exact. A quote from only one source is problematic, a quote translated from English to German to English could differ from the actual words.
Can't stay away from the childish stuff, can you?

Or is it because you don't know any other languages but English?

[idwiyo]

245. You got all pissy with OP because American press didn't bother to provide a report and because

German magazine did not provide transcript of the speech in English. It's OP's fault somehow. They shouldn't have posted anything unless they have original transcripts.



If you care so much about the transcript in English, why don't you send a quick e-mail to the Der Spigiel and ask them if they can provide it?
Here is a link to contacts page:

http://www1.spiegel.de/active/kontakt/fcgi/lesermail.fcgi

Do you also get pissy when English language press provides coverage of foreign events without posting transcripts in the language of origin? Somehow I doubt it. Very much so.

[Progressive dog]

246. I made the mistake of assuming that an Atlanta event wasn't foreign

Maybe you could tell me where Atlanta is, I thought it might be in Georgia, Jimmy Carter's home state.

[idwiyo]

249. Would you like some contact links to American mainstream News agencies so you can ask them why they

didn't bother to provide coverage.

You already have a link to contacts page for Der Spiegel. You can bitch to them for not providing a transcript of the speech in English.
And demand next time they cover an event in US they must do it in English only.

[Progressive dog]

250. No

I already suspect that they didn't because it wasn't felt to be of interest to Americans.

[xocet]

251. Wow...

Your posting is delusional in several ways:

"...only one German newspaper reports..."

"...should be reported in English..."

"...because of German exceptionalism..."

"...why it's posted in double translation..."

"...expect stuff to be in English here..."

BTW, it was actually posted as a "double-secret-reverse-von-Hindenburg" translation, but that is only quibbling.

[Progressive dog]

252. Wow is right nt

[NealK]

256. Yes, totally delusional and incoherent.

A fine example of word salad.

[quakerboy]

170. Explain exactly, in simple words and phrases

What I could have done to "force" the president to "do it". Please. Clearly I am too inept to figure it out, because I thought Voting, protesting, letter writing, donating, protesting some more, raising awareness in others, etc was, as a private citizen all the power I have in our current system to try and nudge a president in one direction or another. And those efforts on the parts of millions, have been fully and completely ignored. Not even denied, ignored.

So, break it down. Exactly how does one "force" a president to do something, other than being very wealthy and able to buy his attention.

[G_j]

247. word

[JDPriestly]

76. Or the banks that also violated laws? Did Obama hold them responsible?

Fines? Fines that the banks pay with depositors' money? That's holding depositors responsible, not the banks or bankers.

[Civilization2]

124. Great point! Banksters are above the law, no investigations needed. Snowden guilty evil traitor.

Why all these anti-freedom folks keep trolling personal attacks on Snowden/Greenwald, and calling anyone who calls for justice, in the face of the information actually leaked, "hero worshipers", Snowden cultists, etc. is clear; THEY hate our freedom.

What else could it be?

Clearly when you can not debate the issue (military-corporate spying, loss of due process) and must resort to smear trolling (hero, traitor) you have already jumped the shark!

[Broward]

162. Also, how about Clapper?

How about the other lawbreakers at the NSA and throughout the Executive branch.

[truedelphi]

196. And Clapper lying to Congress is impeachable offense - which should mean that

Clapper get thrown in the Slammer! And pays a fine!

[Enthusiast]

100. We had to look forward.

You know.

[MrMickeysMom]

56. And by that logic, forget about ever participating in civil disobedience, ProSense...

Thus, we'll have no more of these "sit ins" or for an Occupy Wall Street. Oh, wait... yeah, we've effectively swept OWC up through the abuse of local law enforcement, which of course is alright if you're jack-booting the rights of those peacefully protesting.

And when ALEC writes laws for the "States" like "stand your ground", then what Zimmerman did was "within the law", and violating the Clean Air Act (courtesy of the same group of fascists) is fine because the oil and gas industry has the lawmakers by the short hairs.

Clean your glasses off, ProSense. Could it be that you're looking at the every growing extremism over the last 12 years forgiveness toward some abusive laws of another America that controls cause it can?

Someone needs to tell you that the old laws of America are circumventing the rights of who they are to be written for, and we don't seem to be operating by those laws anymore.

For Carter to recognize this while acknowledging Snowden's responsibility is one thing. What the fuck do you think the Obama administration will do as a result of something Snowden is responsible for doing? Would times have changed? I'd say, based on Bradley Manning, they fucking well have.

[Enthusiast]

101. Yes. Clean your glasses off, ProSense.

[truedelphi]

197. Thanks for your logic and also

for your patriotism. Us "old timers," (and those who are wise beyond their years,) who understand what democracy needs to be -- it's up to us to make the points you have made.

A small afternoon

[JDPriestly]

75. If that quote is taken out of the context of the entire article,

it gives the impression that Carter said the opposite of what he said.

Carter disapproves of the NSA programs. It is very clear from Der Spiegel.

[bahrbearian]

126. Results of your Jury

At Wed Jul 17, 2013, 07:56 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

In other words:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3285350

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Over the top, rude personal attack on DUer who simply stated a fact. The "I'm telling mommy!" and all-caps "WAAAHH!" is stated to be hurtful to the DUer and does not address the substance of the discussion. DU is better than this.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jul 17, 2013, 08:01 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: someone needs a chill pill. Or a nap.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Childish snark, intended only to antagonize another DUer, is disruptive and inappropriate

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[chimpymustgo]

130. That post was ALERTED on? Such nasty desperation to shut down debate!

Thank you for posting the jury results! This is getting insane.

[bahrbearian]

132. Its all about Popularity.

[L0oniX]

141. ^^^this^^^ ...and it makes a joke out of the jury system.

[galileoreloaded]

5. three mins again! uncanny! nt

[ctsnowman]

127. lol

[Mojorabbit]

6. Give it up.

Truly.
Peace, Mojo

[DesMoinesDem]

12. LOL. You have 200 Snowden smear threads that are all the same.

[L0oniX]

142. ^^^this^^^

[idwiyo]

216. +1

[burnodo]

23. Did you intend to include a period?

The very next word out of Carter is "but"

Maybe Carter thinks government spying is far more fucking important than Edward Snowden

[ProSense]

29. And guess what,

"Maybe Carter thinks government spying is far more fucking important than Edward Snowden"

...Carter: he "violated the laws of America, for which he’s responsible"

Yeah, I agree with that. It doesn't matter whether or not the other issue is "far more fucking important" to anyone.

[burnodo]

31. Why is it you only care about Snowden?

[Maedhros]

96. ProSense doesn't really care about Snowden.

Last edited Thu Jul 18, 2013, 11:58 AM - Edit history (2)

It's about objecting to any perceived criticism of the government, regardless of the source. Martin Luther King could arrive in a palanquin hoisted by Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Bobby Kennedy and Susan B. Anthony to question the security state and ProSense would find at least a dozen links "proving" that King was a Racist Paulbot.

On Edit: This was properly alerted - I should not have mocked ProSense's user name. I apologize, and have changed my post.

[Kolesar]

120. Results of your alert

Mail Message
At Thu Jul 18, 2013, 06:06 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

NoSense doesn't really care about Snowden.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3286351

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

It is a personal attack.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Jul 18, 2013, 06:18 AM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Looks to me like a sock or a zombie insulting a DUer. I think MIRT should take a look.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Yet another attack on ProSense by people who claim they want to debate the issues not the personalities. Pffffft.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Calling another poster names? Yes that is against the rules.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

[Katashi_itto]

121. +10000

[L0oniX]

143. ^^^this^^^

[Fantastic Anarchist]

165. +1000

[idwiyo]

217. K&R!

[darkangel218]

26. -1

[deurbano]

27. It's not all a rehash. President Carter also made new remarks on Tuesday at the Atlantic Bridge.

(Whatever that is..) The article includes previous statements (the "rehash&quot he has made, too.

Also...for those not yet aware, the referenced excerpt in the original CNN article was preceded by:

<<Ecuador's rationale appeared to have won support from former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. If another country wants to give haven to Snowden, "then that is their right as a sovereign nation," he told CNN's Suzanne Malveaux. "If the United States can acquire custody of him, I'm sure he will be brought to trial, and that's the way the law should be implemented."

Snowden's acts may have some positive impact, Carter said. (rest of excerpt)>>

[ProSense]

32. Yeah, let's

<<Ecuador's rationale appeared to have won support from former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. If another country wants to give haven to Snowden, "then that is their right as a sovereign nation," he told CNN's Suzanne Malveaux. "If the United States can acquire custody of him, I'm sure he will be brought to trial, and that's the way the law should be implemented."

...not ignore the part about the law and trial.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[ljm2002]

34. Yeah, let's

<<Ecuador's rationale appeared to have won support from former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. If another country wants to give haven to Snowden, "then that is their right as a sovereign nation," he told CNN's Suzanne Malveaux. "If the United States can acquire custody of him, I'm sure he will be brought to trial, and that's the way the law should be implemented."

...not ignore the part about the right of a sovereign nation to offer asylum.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[ProSense]

37. "If another country wants to give haven to Snowden, 'then that is their right as a sovereign nation"

"If the United States can acquire custody of him, I'm sure he will be brought to trial, and that's the way the law should be implemented."

If is up to Russia, where he's currently stuck.

Fugitive Edward Snowden applies for asylum in Russia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023271629

[ljm2002]

40. "If is up to Russia, where he's currently stuck." ... ???

Say what?

You're not making sense.

And really, you can spare me the linky-link. Always to your own posts. Is your ego really that inflated?

[ProSense]

44. Oops I meant

"If" is up to Russia, where he's currently stuck.

You do know he's stuck there, don't you?

[ljm2002]

48. And your point is?

Are you counting on our great ally, Pootie-Poot, to help us out here?

Or is Snowden in the clutches of a super-villain?

[ProSense]

50. LOL!

"Are you counting on our great ally, Pootie-Poot, to help us out here?

Or is Snowden in the clutches of a super-villain?"

Does it matter?

[ljm2002]

57. Well that's what I was asking...

...since you seem to be stuck on the fact that Snowden is "stuck there". I'm just not getting what the relevance of your question is:

"You do know he's stuck there, don't you?"

We were talking about Carter's remarks, you were stressing that Carter acknowledged that Snowden broke the law, I was stressing that Carter acknowledged the value of what he revealed to us. Next thing you know you're stating that Snowden is stuck in Russia (duh), and you seem to think this is a pertinent response to Carter's statement that sovereign nations have the right to grant asylum.

Weird.

[sabrina 1]

61. lol, oh, the irony. You are worried about someone highlighting ONLY part of a quote??

Last edited Thu Jul 18, 2013, 12:54 AM - Edit history (1)

Here, let me help you not to do again what you clearly find so offensive. You left out a whole paragraph in another comment in this thread and posted only the part you liked!

Here's the rest of that quote that you forgot to post from Jimmy Carter:

......... but I think the invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far. I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial. I think the American people deserve to know what their Congress is doing.” - Jimmy Carter

You just posted his first few words and left out this very important part.

[deurbano]

66. And this isn't the first time I've pointed out Carter's comments that precede that selected quote.

Context is crucial... if the purpose is to understand what he was actually conveying.

[awoke_in_2003]

85. Be careful...

Last edited Thu Jul 18, 2013, 11:34 AM - Edit history (1)

you may feel the wrath of The Blue Link.

[ConcernedCanuk]

111. YOU be careful!

.
.
.

Or you will incur the wrath of NonSense!

CC

[Enthusiast]

103. PLUS A BRAZILLION! nt

[L0oniX]

144. +1 and ...Oh ...kinda like a Fox news journalist?

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

164. Cutting and pasting is hard work

The keys are probably almost worn out, cut some slack.

[Phlem]

45. Really???!!!

-p

[NuclearDem]

87. Good point! That's a really annoying thing.

I mean, if someone just went around starting new threads with selective quoting about topics already discussed, I'd be annoyed too.

Fortunately, we have brave, blameless posters to call this out! And good thing they don't have that kind of history either, because they would have to think everyone else is really, really, really dumb to not pick up on it.

[Marr]

220. I guess people are less interested in your 1000th deceitful Snowden hate thread than this one.

Talk about "rehash".

And you complaining about selective quoting is very funny, btw.

[Pholus]

226. "But" .... once again, you put a PERIOD where President Carter puts a COMMA.

I expect no less I guess. Trying to turn that indictment into enthusiastic support is hard to do without a few....."editorial"....changes.

[Boothie]

7. In making secrecy paramount

We have subverted the democratic process because informed are voters essential for a functioning democracy.

[RobertEarl]

18. Welcome to DU Boothie

You nailed it, right out of the gate!

Informed voters are essential for our democracy. So some of us are wondering how some DUers can actually claim, right here on DU, that by keeping secrets from the people we are all safer.

You may notice that there is much objection to some members here trying their damnedest to keep the secretive NSA a secret, even as the secrets come pouring out. Heck, even Carter has chimed in, in objection to the secretive nature of the NSA.

My advice is to read wisely and determine for yourself those who are for openness, versus those who are for continued secrecy.

[SammyWinstonJack]

137. They wouldn't be making that claim under a republican administration.

So some of us are wondering how some DUers can actually claim, right here on DU, that by keeping secrets from the people we are all safer.


Maybe they think that we will never have another republican administration.

[rwsanders]

192. I wouldn't give them too much credence or time.

I suspect that some are paid staffers, others may be trolls, others plants from intelligence agencies, some may just be contrarians who like to argue. Who knows?
But I doubt there are sane people out there that really believe we should be subverting our freedoms.
Its sad that while the rest of us took Terminator, 1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451 as warnings, DARPA was having fantasies about bringing all of these horrors to life.

[Catherina]

36. Double welcome!

I second RobertEarl's advice. Don't let anyone goad you either.

[Cleita]

49. Another welcome to DU.

[Enthusiast]

104. That is exactly correct! nt

[calimary]

158. Welcome to DU, Boothie!

Glad you're here! Sadly, this is just one product of the deterioration of our democracy. I'd add the deliberate subversion and dismantling of the protections to the right to vote as well.

What the hell kind of "democracy" does THAT create - when the main intention is to silence certain groups of people and deny their ability to have their voices heard?

I swear - stuff goes on in America now that's condoned, and even celebrated (and cemented into law), that I have never seen before, and I just hit age 60 this year.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

167. Welcome Boothie!

[woo me with science]

236. Welcome.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Obviously Jimmy Carter is the new Ralph Nader. N.T.

[leveymg]

14. I guess someone's going to say he's not a good Democrat, next.

Almost didn't see the snark in there . . . ding-dong.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. I guess you are sarcasm impaired. Seek help.

[leveymg]

19. Sorry, had to clean my glasses. Didn't see the snark until it was too late. . . and then I wasted

time looking to illustrate the point rather than seeking immediate medical attention. See above. My bad.

[chervilant]

106. Why does that little guy look like Karl Rove?

Cue the obvious snarks about the big "stick" he's carrying...

[muriel_volestrangler]

114. Even better - that is 'The Banker'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_of_the_Snark#Plot_summary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3375077&mesg_id=3377952

[Douglas Carpenter]

9. knr

[SunSeeker]

10. Yeah, and Carter thinks the Zimmerman verdict was right.

Our democracy may be in trouble, but it's not because of the NSA.

[rhett o rick]

42. Must be them damn liberals trying to hold the Republican NSA accountable. Next

they will want to know what Booz-Allen does for their 50 billion dollars. Damn pesky liberals wanting freedoms and liberties when authoritarian security is so much more comfortable.

[DeSwiss]

77. It ain't in trouble.

It's gone.

And it's because of us.

- All. Of. Us.

“Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.

How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. ” ~ Alan Moore, V for Vendetta

[harun]

136. It was gone a long time ago. The Democracy they teach in grade school is a fairy tale.

[DeSwiss]

174. Exactly. n/t

[ProSense]

11. Another thing,

it's not even clear that the "democracy" comment, if accurately quoted, has anything to do with Snowden. Carter was in Atlanta.

Former President Jimmy Carter said Wednesday that unchecked political contributions are "legal bribery of candidates" and denounced a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that made possible unlimited spending by outside groups, including corporations and labor unions.

"It's accepted fact," Carter said during a speech in Atlanta. "It's legal bribery of candidates. And that repayment may be in the form of an ambassadorship to someone who has raised three or four hundred thousand dollars to help a candidate get elected."

Carter spoke at a forum where an agency of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe released its report on last year's U.S. election. The U.S. government invited the European agency to observe the process.

He said the U.S. Supreme Court made a "very stupid" decision by removing limits on independent campaign spending by businesses and labor unions, which the court found was a constitutionally protected form of political speech. The Democrat said that he and his Republican opponents used public financing to run their general election campaigns in 1976 and 1980.

<...>

Carter said that while elections in the United States once set an example for the world, the country's reputation diminished in 2000 when the U.S. Supreme Court intervened in a Florida vote recount, effectively deciding the election in favor of Republican George W. Bush. He also criticized GOP-led state legislatures for changing polling hours in ways that Carter said were meant to frustrate likely Democratic voters.

- more -

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/carter-unlimited-contributions-legal-bribery-19687763

[SunSeeker]

20. That makes way more sense. Those are the reasons our democracy is in trouble, not the NSA. nt

[caseymoz]

51. Those and the NSA

What makes you think they're unrelated? Booz Allen and the rest are some of the companies that make unlimited contributions. ALEC, for which some of those companies are a member, writes laws like SYG.

Letting them do all that and the surveillance gives them an incredible amount of power, and blackmail access over politicians.

Our intelligence community has always been contrary to democracy. Or did you notice all the anti-democratic coups they engineered through the years? They've just taken their Cold War procedures and cynicism and have brought it home.

Intelligence gathering needs to be kept on a short leash.

[JDPriestly]

78. Actually, Carter said that the NSA program is endangering the credibility or trustworthiness

in the world of our important programs such as Google and Facebook. See my translation below from Der Spiegel.

Carter is extremely critical of the NSA programs.

See my post below. I translate it, and you can see the original German of a paragraph not posted in the OP.

[deurbano]

28. The "democracy comment" was on Tuesday; this speech was on Wednesday.

[cprise]

35. FWIW, Obama made at least one very similar comment

after becoming president. And the context was the gridlock with Congress, which I think is closely related to the above.

I don't think Speigel was taking Carter out of context so much as denying the 'democratic consent' figleaf to those who are comfortable with mass surveillance.

[burnodo]

47. If accurately quoted

Holy shit

[Kolesar]

102. & The Snowbots put their fingers in their ears and say "la la la, can't hear you"... eom

[muriel_volestrangler]

117. Tues: Atlantik-Brücke; Wed: OCSE forum on the US November elections

This is blindingly obvious from the words in the OP, and the words you posted, but you don't seem to care.

http://www.atlantik-bruecke.org/eng/

http://www.osce.org/odihr

Do you need me to post definitions of 'Tuesday' and 'Wednesday' as well?

[xocet]

139. Thanks for posting the link to the organization.

I assumed that the name of the organization would be the translated form of the name. All that search yielded was a now-defunct, English conservative organization that at some point was apparently a charity and was somehow related to Margaret Thatcher and to the Tea Party.

Liam Fox's Atlantic Bridge linked top Tories and Tea Party activists
Officially it was a charity; in fact, Fox's thinktank was a meeting place for the movers and shakers of the right wing
Jamie Doward
The Observer, Saturday 15 October 2011 16.30 EDT

Twenty US business leaders assembled in Pittsburgh in October 2006 to pay court to the coming man of British politics. They could have been forgiven for thinking Liam Fox, with his neatly parted hair and clipped Scottish accent, resembled the GP he had once been, rather than a potential Tory leader.

But, although few of the business leaders knew much about the shadow defence secretary, they were familiar with his charity, the Atlantic Bridge. This was the organisation whose patron, Lady Thatcher, was lionised in the US for her support of the free market and American military airbases on British soil. It was the organisation whose members in 2004 were ushered into the White House to be briefed by Karl Rove, George W Bush's special counsel. And it was the organisation whose cocktail parties in the Carlton Club in London and Charlie Palmer's steakhouse in Washington were high points of the transatlantic social calendar.

Shortly after addressing the business leaders at Pittsburgh's Duquesne Club – "the finest city club in the country"– Fox explained that the Atlantic Bridge promoted the special relationship between the UK and the US by creating "a network of individual people who can know one another". He declared: "We are trying to bring people together who have common interests and to recognise that in an ever more globalised economy, we will all be called upon to defend those common interests."

Last week those interests came back to haunt not just Fox, whose fall on Friday rocked David Cameron's coalition government, but also many Tory members of the cabinet, whose extensive links to the Atlantic Bridge are now under scrutiny. The irony is that it took a furore around Fox's friendship with a relatively minor player in the saga – a lobbyist, Adam Werritty – to make these links apparent.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/15/liam-fox-atlantic-bridge

[muriel_volestrangler]

149. It also makes sense that Der Spiegel might notice it when US media didn't

Since this is a German-American (and Canadian) bonding group, which tends to matter more to the smaller country than the larger one. They're in the middle of their annual German-American Young Leaders Conference in Georgia.

I had heard of Fox's "Atlantic Bridge" - most people thought it sounded highly dodgy. As you can see from that article, Fox wasn't able to separate personal business from his government duties, and was kicked out of the cabinet.

[xocet]

160. Indeed.

Thanks again for posting that link. At 2:00 AM this morning, I thought that for the sake of completeness I was going to have to wade through the articles on Fox's "Atlantic Bridge" today to find out exactly what President Carter had said. I gave up on the search as it seemed too involved at that point.

[marions ghost]

13. "America no longer has a functioning democracy,"

whew, that is a heckuva scathing comment from a previous president.

But it rings true to me. Thank You for speaking out Jimmy.

[woo me with science]

16. Get ye to the Greatest Page.

Thank you, President Carter.

[leveymg]

17. For those who claim it's always been like this, here's testimony that it hasn't.

Thank you President Carter for establishing that we have moved far, far out onto a limb, only to see the whole tree go crashing down.

[Catherina]

22. I am sure some will want to argue with President Carter, maybe send him some horrible blue links

snipped, twisted and distorted, to prove to him he's wrong. Then after not making their case, except in their own minds, they'll triumphantly exchange high fives among the same small group of ever-faithfuls, pretending they did.

Jimmy Carter is living proof it wasn't always like this. AND DIDN'T HAVE TO BE.

[Bonobo]

25. Will he be called a narcissist desperately trying to stay relevant? nt

[Catherina]

30. Or a racist who's mad about his pony and deliberately timed his statement to hurt President Obama

Who can imagine what kind of dung will be thrown at him for daring to speak the truth?

[snot]

21. Thank you.

[rosesaylavee]

38. K&R

[railsback]

41. Even Carter says Snowden should be in jail right now.

I agree with the President.

[darkangel218]

43. Thats not all he said.

You're missing ( ignoring ) the most important part.

[railsback]

72. No, I'm not the one making him say what he's not.

[JDPriestly]

79. It's helpful to read the articles at the links before commenting.

Occasionally we all make the mistake of commenting first, but it makes us look like fools.

[deurbano]

67. When did President Carter say Snowden should be in jail?

He said other countries have the right to give Snowden asylum. If that doesn't happen (or isn't allowed to happen) and the US can get custody of him, Snowden should be brought to trial. (Ellsberg was eventually brought to trial, but out on bond before that, not in jail.) Maybe President Carter would like to see the questions Snowden has raised argued in a court of law in a fair and open trial? (Not one shrouded in secrecy because... 9/11...9/11... 9/11.)

What Carter previously said about Snowden:

<<Ecuador's rationale appeared to have won support from former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. If another country wants to give haven to Snowden, "then that is their right as a sovereign nation," he told CNN's Suzanne Malveaux. "If the United States can acquire custody of him, I'm sure he will be brought to trial, and that's the way the law should be implemented."

Snowden's acts may have some positive impact, Carter said.

"He's obviously violated the laws of America, for which he's responsible, but I think the invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far," he said.

"I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial."

Asked to elaborate, he said, "I think the American people deserve to know what their Congress is doing.">>

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/us/snowden-lawyer-offer

[railsback]

70. Trying to mix oil and water

They don't mix.

[JDPriestly]

80. We give amnesty to all kinds of people who claim to be political refugees.

We can do that because we are a sovereign nation and do not have to respect the laws of other countries that we believe unfairly discourage political conduct in the country from which the refugee claims to be fleeing.

Carter is saying that if another sovereign state similarly offers asylum to Snowden, we should respect that offer and not interfere.

That is the meaning of Carter's statement.

[railsback]

83. But he doesn't say Snowden gets safe passage, does he?

What he actually says:

"If the United States can acquire custody of him, I'm sure he will be brought to trial, and that's the way the law should be implemented."

You all are seriously deforming Carter's words into some kind of defense for Snowden's actions, who Carter says broke the law.

Weird.

[delrem]

88. cyclops

[sabrina 1]

68. No, actually, he didn't. No one who respects the rule of law WOULD say such a thing until

AFTER a trial AND a conviction. He says he violated US laws, which Snowden himself has stated, so did Ellsberg, so saying someone violated laws is simply that. It isn't saying they should not have done so, it is acknowledging a fact, that is all.

And after acknowledging a fact also acknowledged by Snowden himself, he went on to say some very important things:

“He’s obviously violated the laws of America, for which he’s responsible, but I think the invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far. I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial. I think the American people deserve to know what their Congress is doing.” -

So, after stating a fact, which did not include what you have incorrectly attributed to him, he goes on to say that what Snowden did is beneficial to the American people who have a right to know what Congress is doing.

[railsback]

69. He said he obviously violated U.S. laws

I suppose if I squinted my eyes really hard and double crossed my fingers, I could see it your way.

[JDPriestly]

82. Carter clearly states that the violation of laws is not the end of the story

since we need to know what our congress is doing, in other words, what laws it is passing.

These laws that have been interpreted to permit extremely invasive and widespread spying are secret. Had Snowden not told us what was going on, we would not know.

Did you see the article today about the hearing in Congress on these programs?

Let's say your uncle hires an employee in his store who comes from a Middle Eastern country, let's just say Iran. The employee e-mails some relatives in Iran and then your uncle e-mails that same employee. Your uncle would come under surveillance. And if your uncle also e-mails you, then under this program, you also would come under surveillance. Do you see the waste, the excess and the uselessness of this program? It is extreme.

[railsback]

84. Interpretation is right.

That's ALL this is.

[JDPriestly]

97. There is a video on DU of Sensenbrenner's questioning of an administraton spokesman

today. In it, Sensenbrenner, who wrote the Patriot Act states that this program is not authorized by Section 215 of that Act. Sensenbrenner, I repeat, wrote the Patriot Act and said that his program is not authorized by it, and that it is doing something that has never been done and was not contemplated under the Patriot Act. Sensenbrenner also warns that the statutory provision that the NSA claims to be relying on in this program will not be renewed unless the program is changed because there are not enough votes in Congress to support it.

Watch the two videos from today's hearing. This program is so obviously illegal and unconstitutional that it cannot survive.

Members of Congress definitely don't want the NSA (and thus, the administration) to obtain their metadata. After all, a Congressmember's metadata is a roadmap to his/her donor base.

So. No. Congress is not going to vote to allow the NSA to get this kind of personal information about themselves.

How could any president think that it would.

[railsback]

107. If it was illegal

then it would have been spelled out in The Patriot Act. Sennsenbrenner wrote the text deliberately vague.

[deurbano]

89. "He said he obviously violated U.S. laws" vs "Even Carter says Snowden should be in jail right now"

Only one is true. (No squinting required.)

We already provided the example of Ellsberg (broke the law, went to trial, but didn't serve time), but here's another:

<<Just a day after Jimmy Carter's inaguration, he followed through on a contentious campaign promise, granting a presidential pardon to those who had avoided the draft during the Vietnam war by either not registering or traveling abroad.

The pardon meant the government was giving up forever the right to prosecute what the administration said were hundreds of thousands of draft-dodgers.President Carter pardoned any Vietnam War draft evaders who asked for a pardon.>>

They violated U.S. law, but those violating U.S. laws do not always serve (and do not always deserve) time in jail (according to Jimmy Carter).
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/vietnam/vietnam_1-21-77.html

[railsback]

91. For one

Ellsberg turned himself in, and managed to stay out of jail for two years on a $50k bond. People who leave the country ARE NOT going to get that luxury. Flight risk.

"There is zero chance that he would be allowed out on bail if he returned now and close to no chance that, had he not left the country, he would have been granted bail. "

So, yes, that's 'behind bars'.

Two, Carter NEVER calls Snowden a 'whistleblower'. He's not stupid. And he's also not the president, in a position to pardon Snowden, who he never says deserves one or not.

[deurbano]

98. I harbor no illusion that President Obama will pardon Snowden...

and I didn't say Carter thinks Snowden deserves to be pardoned. I have no way of knowing that.

Obviously, though, it is not outside the realm of possibility that Carter might think a higher purpose could be served by NOT incarcerating Snowden, since he ALSO said: "I think the invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far. I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial." Especially, since Carter has clearly demonstrated a willingness to consider mitigating circumstances in the past (the pardon of draft resisters, as I mentioned)-- and on quite a grand scale.

My point, though, is that Carter did not say Snowden belongs in jail, and we can only speculate (and possibly disagree) on which part of what he DID say to highlight... but we have to base that speculation on his actual words. If Carter thinks other countries have the right to grant Snowden asylum (something he actually DID say), then doesn't it seem likely that he thinks Snowden has the right to that asylum? And doesn't that seem at odds with: "Snowden should be in jail, now"?

Plenty of other US "leaders" have strongly expressed that they do NOT think other countries have the right to grant Snowden asylum... and have quite forcefully conveyed that Snowden SHOULD be in jail (or worse)...that he has committed treason... etc..

Carter's words (at this point, anyway) put him in a different camp. He may not have called Snowden a whistleblower (he actually doesn't seem to have said much beyond the little we have quoted here), but he hasn't called him a traitor, either. He has supported asylum. He finds it (probably) beneficial that Snowden has brought the excessive invasion of privacy to the public's notice. But also consider that Carter is saying this as a Democratic former president who is commenting on a situation involving the administration of the current Democratic president. (A somewhat tricky situation.) Carter sounds fairly measured, while at the same time straying from the party line.

[sabrina 1]

176. No, if you tried really hard, you might understand that someone who understands 'innocent

until proven guilty' as President Carter surely does, would never say, BEFORE the system of justice has been applied and a fair trial provided, 'he is guilty and should go to jail'.

It certainly isn't MY way, it is our system of justice itself that would prevent anyone who believes in Democracy from making such a pre-emptive statement, especially someone who was once POTUS, unless it was George Bush of course who knew nothing about our judicial system.

Iow, you misquoted Pres. Carter.

[railsback]

188. Violating laws, as Carter says, is pretty cut and dry

And since Snowden fled, there's no judge in the world that would grant him bail = JAIL

Pretty simple math.

[sabrina 1]

189. You were wrong, period. Seems hard for you to admit. Carter did not say he belonged in jail

nor would he, as you wrongfully stated.

Bad laws have been broken throughout history, mostly by extremely courageous people when it becomes necessary to do so rather than ignore wrong doing on the part of powerful people.

Carter was simply acknowledging a fact. A fact known and acknowledged by Snowden, being that he is an intelligent guy.

It's pretty simple, MLK broke laws. I'm sure Carter would acknowledge that, but he would NOT say 'he belonged in jail' as you claimed, before there was a trial.

Carter did not say what you claimed he said, period.

[railsback]

193. I suppose you can interpret life any way you like to fit the meme

Carter makes no statement about Snowden other than he broke the law, should answer to it, and the U.S. has every right to apprehend him.

And courageous people don't flee their country, and then threaten to do serious harm to it if they don't get their way.

[sabrina 1]

213. Interpret? It was you who 'interpreted', (incorrectly) Carter's words. There was no need for ME

to use my own interpretation, as you did, since his words were right there in writing. He did not say, as you clearly stated, that Snowden belongs in jail. He stated the same fact that Snowden himself has stated. MLK broke the law. Salman Rushdie broke the law. Mandela broke the law. Our Founding Fathers broke every law in the book. Carter would agree that all those people, including our Founding Fathers, broke the law and yes, the King had the right to apprehend all of them and under the law execute them. But they did not turn themselves over after signing the Declaration of Independence. I guess they were cowards. They hid from the King's law enforcers.

However, all of those people broke laws KNOWINGLY and like Snowden, KNEW the consequences. But they broke those laws because of WRONG DOING on the part of their governments, like Snowden.

And once again you are wrong here:

Carter makes no statement about Snowden other than he broke the law, should answer to it, and the U.S. has every right to apprehend him.

It appears you did not read Carter's statement at all.

He most certainly did make a statement about Snowden's actions.

After stating the fact that Snowden had broken the law, as everyone knows, and everyone also knows that it takes courageous people to break laws, like our Founding Fathers, when they know that there are egregious acts taking place that the people have a right to know about, Carter continued and said this:

I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial. I think the American people deserve to know what their Congress is doing.” - Jimmy Carter

He agrees with Snowden. This is exactly why Snowden did what he did.

[railsback]

224. Like I said, nothing but interpretation,

like the whole false equivalencies of Snowden and our Founding Fathers. Jeezuz. What's next? Jeezuz?

[sabrina 1]

225. Another misinterpretation on your part. The comparison was not between Snowden and the FFs

which anyone who actually read the post could see clearly.

The comparison was between various people with various causes who broke laws for good reasons.

The issue is that breaking the law is often a necessary and good thing when he causes, which differ widley, are just.

You misstated what Carter said. Then went on to state that he had said 'nothing else about Snowden' which was also not true. He did.

Now you are claiming a comparison between Snowden and the FFs which was not made by me. That would be ridiculous, THEIR cause and reasons for breaking the law were entirely different than Snowden's reason for doing so.

Both had causes, both broke the laws, both had DIFFERENT causes.

I hope that is clear enough for you.

[NealK]

257. "I suppose if I squinted my eyes really hard and double crossed my fingers, I could see it your way"

No, if you weren't so disingenuous you would agree with her. But it's not part of your agenda to do so.

[Pholus]

227. Dick Cheney should be in jail right now.

President Obama did not agree with me.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-250_162-4955428.html

[railsback]

228. I agree

But next to impossible to prosecute.

[Pholus]

230. Seems just like there are two versions of the law these days....

One set for normal people, one for the "too big to fail" crowd.

One could probably guess the former set matches 99% of the people, the latter set 1%....

[cliffordu]

46. I fucking LOVE Jimmy Carter.

He embodies what a great American and a great politician should be.

Fuck Reagan and his ilk for what they did to him.

[silvershadow]

52. This man should run for his second term. nt

[Catherina]

53. I'd vote for him. Gladly n/t

[silvershadow]

55. So would I...in a heartbeat. nt

[truth2power]

54. Quick! Throw Carter under the bus, too!

[backscatter712]

60. What dirt can we dig up on him?!

I heard he's actually worked in construction! What would a construction worker know about international policy and intelligence collection?

CHECKMATE, SNOWDEN-WORSHIPERS!!!

[ConcernedCanuk]

116. I think at one time Jimmy Carter was addicted

.
.
.

to peanuts . . .

oh

here's some "dirt"!!

"Carter is the only U.S. president to have lived in housing subsidized for the poor"

A welfare bum! - hang him!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter

CC

[HardTimes99]

59. Catherina, who did the translation of the Der Spiegel article? Has that

speech in Atlanta been reported in any English-language media? And, if so, did the English-language media quote Carter as saying that "America no longer has a functioning democracy"?

The reason I ask is if Carter actually said it, that statement is an amazing utterance from a former President.

I'm not saying Carter didn't say it (nor that the translation is off-key), but I'm wondering if there is any other sourcing for this.

[Catherina]

86. Hi HardTimes!

I did, with some help, because my German is rusty. But if you look around on the web, everybody's translating it about the same. The sentence "Amerika hat derzeit keine funktionierende Demokratie" is literally translated as "America doesn't currently have a democracy".

Derzeit = at present, currently

Since he made the remark at the "Atlantik-Brücke" in Atlanta, I'm not surprised it's first being reported in the German media. All the English-language web articles I've found so far are based on that Spiegel article (example).

Atlantik-Brücke is a private, non-profit, nonpartisan association with the goal of building a bridge between Germany and the United States. Its activities focus on efforts to enable better mutual understanding.

Target groups are German and American decision-makers from business, politics, defense, academia, media and culture, who find a space for confidential discussions at Atlantik-Brücke. At Young Leaders conferences, up-and-coming leaders forge networks and keep the transatlantic dialog alive for future generations. Atlantik-Brücke also organizes study trips for American teachers that offer the possibility to experience and learn about modern Germany.

The approximately 500 members of Atlantik-Brücke come predominantly from business, politics, academia and the media. Membership is by invitation only.

http://www.atlantik-bruecke.org/eng/about-us/

I agree it's an amazing statement but I don't think it's really surprising when you read his NYT article. Al Gore made a very critical statement about this too. I better update my OP and call it Atlantik-Brücke, instead of translating it into Atlantic Bridge.

[defacto7]

95. The following translation is correct...

Amerika hat derzeit keine funktionierende Demokratie"

America has currently no functioning democracy.

or paraphrased...

America currently does not have a functioning democracy.

[Catherina]

204. I almost went with ""America does not have a functioning democracy at this point in time"

but without the original English, I decided to go for the feel of it instead. Let me update the OP to reflect that

[xocet]

153. Here is a question regarding the translation if you have the time...

In the text below, my initial translation for "im Nachgang des" was "in the aftermath of the", but that did not feel very precise.

NSA-Affäre: Ex-Präsident Carter verdammt US-Schnüffelei
Von Gregor Peter Schmitz, Atlanta

...

Der ehemalige US-Präsident Jimmy Carter
(The) (former) (US President) (Jimmy) (Carter)

hat im Nachgang des NSA-Spähskandals
(has) (() (subsequently)) (to the) (NSA surveillance scandal)

...

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nsa-affaere-jimmy-carter-kritisiert-usa-a-911589.html

The Duden entry that I found regarding "Nachgang" related it to "Nachtrag" and noted that it is bureaucratic jargon.

Nach­gang

...

Wendungen, Redensarten, Sprichwörter
im Nachgang (Amtssprache; als Nachtrag: die Genehmigung erfolgte erst im Nachgang)

...

http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Nachgang

In other searches, I found the use of the preposition "zu" with the phrase "im Nachgang" -

Herrn MinDirig Jörg Kraeusel
Leiter Unterabteilung IV B
Bundesministerium der Finanzen
11016 Berlin

Nationale Umsetzung des Mehrwertsteuer-Pakets

Sehr geehrter Herr Kraeusel,

im Nachgang zu unseren Besprechungen im Rahmen der letzten Sitzung
des BDI-Arbeitskreises „Umsatzsteuer“ am 24. Juni 2008 sowie des Gedankenaustauschs
bei der KPMG am 25. Juni 2008 in Berlin möchten wir
Ihnen wie angekündigt unsere Anmerkungen und Zweifelsfragen zum
sog. Mehrwertsteuer-Paket zukommen lassen.

...

http://www.bdi.eu/download_content/SteuernUndFinanzpolitik/12_Eingabe_Mehrwertsteuerpaket_mit_Unterschriften.pdf

Do you have any feel for the use of the genitive case ("des ...&quot versus the preposition phrase ("zu ...&quot in above circumstances? If so, do you know of any significant distinctions in their respective translations or uses?

Your translation of the phrase is "In the wake of the..." and (as noted above, "...in the aftermath of the...&quot my initial thoughts were quite the same, but looking at further examples made me doubt my initial translation.

At any rate, thanks for motivating me to translate something.

[Catherina]

200. My head spins lol

If I had to translate "im Nachgang des" literally, I'd go with "subsequent to", or "following". Literally it's "in follow-up of". "Following the NSA surveillance scandal" would be a great translation.

And "im nachgang zu" would be more like "in supplement to" but it also works for "subsequent to".

The way I do it in my mind, "zu" is usually used for movement towards and "des" for being a part of (genitive) but I'm not an expert in German grammar.

Nachtrag is more of a supplement or an amendment.

I never paid strict attention to all the rules and I'm doing a very bad job of explaining anything. I'm really not the best person to ask about German grammar. Where's Temmer lol??

[xocet]

208. Thank you for your commentary.

About 26 years ago, I lived in Germany for about 13 months, spoke with as many people as I could, and read about 70 books in German. Prior to that experience, I had a couple of years of college German. Sadly, I have absolutely no idea about "Temmer" - apparently, it has been too long.

If I may ask, how did you gain your experience with the German language?

P.S. Thank you for taking the time to translate that article! Translation can be quite a chore sometimes.

[Catherina]

218. Temmer is a German poster here

I moved there with my sister after she exposed me to the novel idea that I could study for free there instead of racking up student loans in the US. I went to the Goethe Institute their intensive 6 month total immersion course then was accepted at the Frei Universitat of Berlin and got my degree for nothing more than the cost of books. I spent a total of 5 years there, reading, speaking, living with the Germans, like a German. It seems like such a long time ago but those were the best years of my life. Where were you?

[xocet]

219. That is really cool.

I was in Würzburg for about 1 month and in Stuttgart for most of the remainder of the 13 months. While I was in Stuttgart, I also had the opportunity to spend a week in West Berlin (a day of it in East Berlin) and a week in Hamburg. It was a very interesting time. All four/five cities had unique characters.

I think what you did was the optimal approach to getting an education. It would be so nice if the USA would adopt the principle that education should be available to all. I was on an exchange program - my experience was that my preparation for the third year of a physics degree in the USA was not at the same level as the second/third year of a German physics degree. I took what I could and focused on language and on culture. Mostly, I avoided other Americans so that I could get practice speaking. What field did you study?

Going back to Germany is like going home in a way, but I have not been there for a while.

[Catherina]

221. I wish the US would too

I started with a biology and math double but I dropped biology in my 3rd year because it was too demanding to pursue both. You did well to avoid other Americans. My sister insisted on that and looking back, I'm grateful because it kept a lot of doors *unclosed* and I learned from a whole new world. She gave me a dictionary and made me start reading "The Tin Drum" in German the day we got off the plane lol! Physics? Good for you. That's an incredibly tough field.

I hope you get to go back soon. I want to but, in a way I'm afraid to because I'll never want to leave.

[xocet]

223. There were a lot of students from another US university in Stuttgart.

They would walk around together and speak English amongst themselves. The other Americans from the college that I attended and I noted that behavior and decided essentially from the beginning that we would only speak German to each other if we got together. Mostly, we went our own separate ways during that year and only seldom did anything together.

"Per Anhalter durch die Galaxis" was the first book that I read with a Langenscheidt's in hand. What a chore! Eventually, I bought a Duden.

Mathematics is definitely a cool subject. There is a lot of it in physics, but it is not developed systematically there. In hand-waving terms, matrix algebra, group theory and representation theory all make appearances in quantum mechanics. When I went to Germany, I lacked a course in matrix algebra and a course in vector calculus. The engineering college that I attended prior to going to Germany did not offer these courses except as insignificant subsections of a year-long calculus course, and, naïvely, I did not appreciate their importance at the time. I suppose that, if one were truly a master of first-year calculus, one could make due without the two courses that I just noted. However, that was not my experience.

What sort of mathematics do you like? Do you use your mathematics?

[Catherina]

248. I like all sorts

Discrete mathematics and dynamic systems were my favorites but math is not my first love. I mostly did that to please my parents who wanted me to have a solid trade as a back-up for my less financially productive ideas and I figured math would be easier to study in a second language.

I don't use them anymore. I'm more interested in this and providing shelter & rehabilitation services for trafficked women after I moved to Guatemala a few years ago. Had I known then what I know know, I would have gone for political sciences.

That book! I never read it but I remember having the game on my Apple II. I never got past the first few levels lol.

What kind of engineering? That's such a fascinating field.

[xocet]

254. It is interesting that you bring up dynamical systems....

I was looking at some review papers on caustics a few weeks ago to see if there would be any way to use them to model the dripping of a droplet from a surface. Who knows if that approach would yield anything useful or interesting? (It has probably been done already, though.) Just for fun, here is a link to some interesting papers - including one on the reflections from a X-mas ornament:

http://www.phy.bristol.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/publications.html

Also, I don't know if you heard that V.I. Arnol'd passed away in 2010. That is a while back, but it is notable since he wrote so many good books. Here is one that you might enjoy - it is not full-on mathematics, but it is a short historical discussion of Huygens, Barrow, Newton and Hooke - http://www.amazon.com/dp/0817623833 .

FYI:

The engineering college that I mentioned is a school unto itself in Indiana. My experience is that engineering gives math an even shorter schrift (so to speak) than physics gives math. So, their curriculum that omits vector calculus (say, Marsden) and linear algebra makes sense if one wants to get right to engineering applications and engineering coursework, but disadvantages those who would like to truly understand what is being said. A discussion of mathematical pedagogy is long, though, so I'll omit it with one exception - Arnol'd had an interesting view on how math should be taught and understood:

http://pauli.uni-muenster.de/~munsteg/arnold.html

It sounds like what you are presently doing is very important and demanding work. I hope that it is going well for you, but it must be difficult. Political science would have been a useful major.

Paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson is problematic, but in an early letter that he wrote to one of his relatives (I believe), he recommended that the relative go into law so that he could take a role that would provide public service - i.e., in Jefferson's opinion, if a person wanted to influence the world, a law degree was the first step. At the moment, I cannot find a link to the letter to which I referred - sorry. In lieu of that, here is a link to an interesting collection of his writings:

http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JefLett.html

Sadly, at this point, I am writing more of a epic-length novel than a reply to a post, so I will break it off. Good luck with your work and, in case no one ever openly stated it - you make DU a better community with your postings.

[HardTimes99]

195. Catherina, all the English language souces I've seen point back to the

article in Der Spiegel.

Is there any video of Carter's speech? Or was there any English-language speaking media person there transcribing his remarks in English.

Carter said something in English which the reporter for Der Spiegel translated into German as follows;

"Amerika hat derzeit keine funktionierende Demokratie".

I'd be very curious to know exactly what Carter said in English (I'm assuming he did not speak German).

Have you secured a video or English-language transcript?

[Catherina]

201. No I haven't. Der Spiegel is the only original source

The person who wrote the article wrote it from Atlanta so I assume he was present. Maybe e-mail them?

I couldn't find a video or a transcript.

[xocet]

92. The translation seems to be fine.

Here is the text from the article with a literal translation below it:

NSA-Affäre: Ex-Präsident Carter verdammt US-Schnüffelei
Von Gregor Peter Schmitz, Atlanta

...


Der ehemalige US-Präsident Jimmy Carter
(The) (former) (US President) (Jimmy) (Carter)

hat im Nachgang des NSA-Spähskandals
(has) (() (subsequently)) (to the) (NSA surveillance scandal)

das amerikanische politische System heftig kritisiert.
(the) (American) (political) (system) (roundly) (criticized).

"Amerika hat derzeit keine funktionierende Demokratie",
&quot America) (has) (presently) (no) (functioning) (Democracy),"

sagte Carter am Dienstag bei einer Veranstaltung
(said) (Carter) (on) (Tuesday) (at) (an) (event/meeting)

der "Atlantik-Brücke" in Atlanta.
(of the) &quot Atlantic Bridge)" (in) (Atlanta).

...

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nsa-affaere-jimmy-carter-kritisiert-usa-a-911589.html

So far, I have not been able to find a transcript or video of the meeting. Have you had any success in locating it?

The Carter Center does not seem to have it:

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/editorials_speeches/index.html

[HardTimes99]

194. Carter said something in English, which the reporters at

Der Spiegel translated into German as this:

"Amerika hat derzeit keine funktionierende Demokratie".

Which is then translated back into English as "America no longer has a functioning democracy".

So we've now got at least two rounds of translation going on.

I do not have a transcript or video of Carter's speech, but I would dearly love to see a video clip of Carter's original speech in English." (I'm assuming Carter spoke in English, of course, and that Der Spiegel's reporter did the first translation from English to German.)

Assuming Carter said something roughly along these lines, much turns on the translation of the word 'derzeit'. I'm a bit uncomfortable tanslating it as 'no longer' (which implies that America did at one point have a functioning democracy) and far more comfortable with ''presently' (which says nothing pro or con about a functioning democracy in the past).

[xocet]

211. I, too, would love to see a transcript of President Carter's original remarks, but...

I have not been able to find such a document. Maybe the Carter Center will have them at some future time.

[AzDar]

62. Jimmy!

[westerebus]

63. We're gonna need a bigger bus!

The gentleman from Plains speaks truth to power.

[Douglas Carpenter]

64. knr

[ReRe]

65. There you go....

K&R

.... my favorite living President. I think Jimmy Carter is speaking out now because, quite frankly, he has nothing to loose. He does NOT look well.

[JDPriestly]

71. In the Der Spiegel article, Carter also stated

Als Lichtblick nannte Carter hingegen den Siegeszug moderner Technologie, die etwa in den Ländern des Arabischen Frühlings für demokratische Fortschritte gesorgt hätten. Genau diese Entwicklungen werden durch den NSA-Spähskandal aber gefährdet, da wichtige US-Internetplattformen wie Google oder Facebook dadurch weltweit an Glaubwürdigkeit verlieren.

Carter called the triumphs of modern technology that provided democratic progress in Arab countries during the Arab Spring a glimmer of hope. It is precisely these developments that the NSA are endangered by the spying scandal in that important US programs such as Google or Facebook lose their credibility worldwide due to it.

As for the deal the father is trying to arrange, how in the world could Snowden enforce it? Why would the government keep such a promise?

[adirondacker]

73. Nothing like hearing it from someone intelligent and Wise. nt

[DeSwiss]

74. You can ALWAYS depend upon Jimmy Carter to tell the truth.

[railsback]

81. "He’s obviously violated the laws of America, for which he’s responsible"

And Also:

"If the United States can acquire custody of him, I'm sure he will be brought to trial, and that's the way the law should be implemented."

Carter has been speaking of human rights violations for YEARS. Why, all of a sudden, does he become relevant again because of Snowden, whom he says should face the music?

Cherry picking extravaganza.

Oh, And Also

Carter NEVER calls Snowden a 'whistleblower'.

[deurbano]

90. "Cherry picking" would be using those selective quotes and leaving out the context.

President Carter didn't suddenly become relevant, again; he has always been relevant, especially (as you say) on human rights issues. The NYT link in the OP is an editorial by Carter from last year that was well worth reading then and and is well worth reading now (since nothing he is lamenting has changed for the better).

Carter on Snowden (the full quote, again):

<<Ecuador's rationale appeared to have won support from former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. If another country wants to give haven to Snowden, "then that is their right as a sovereign nation," he told CNN's Suzanne Malveaux. "If the United States can acquire custody of him, I'm sure he will be brought to trial, and that's the way the law should be implemented."

Snowden's acts may have some positive impact, Carter said.

"He's obviously violated the laws of America, for which he's responsible, but I think the invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far," he said.

"I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial."

Asked to elaborate, he said, "I think the American people deserve to know what their Congress is doing.">>

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/us/snowden-lawyer-offer

[railsback]

93. Not once does he call Snowden a 'whistleblower'.

Nor does he say Snowden should get free passage to the country offering asylum. In fact, he says very little of Snowden, other than he broke the law and will have to face the consequences of his actions.

Carter signed FISA into law in 1978. He's a man about law, and Snowden broke the law. Simple.

[deurbano]

99. He also doesn't call Snowden a traitor.

Supporting a country's right to offer Snowden asylum would be a pretty hollow gesture if Snowden could never get there. What would be the point?


Ellsberg broke the law.
The draft resisters who fled (or never registered) broke the law.
And Snowden broke the law.

But, I disagree that Carter is "a man about the law." I think he is a man of principle. Read his NYT editorial from the OP's link. Carter decries human rights violations that are egregiously immoral, yet "legal":

<<Recent legislation has made legal the president’s right to detain a person indefinitely on suspicion of affiliation with terrorist organizations or “associated forces,” a broad, vague power that can be abused without meaningful oversight from the courts or Congress (the law is currently being blocked by a federal judge). This law violates the right to freedom of expression and to be presumed innocent until proved guilty, two other rights enshrined in the declaration.

In addition to American citizens’ being targeted for assassination or indefinite detention, recent laws have canceled the restraints in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 to allow unprecedented violations of our rights to privacy through warrantless wiretapping and government mining of our electronic communications. Popular state laws permit detaining individuals because of their appearance, where they worship or with whom they associate.

Despite an arbitrary rule that any man killed by drones is declared an enemy terrorist, the death of nearby innocent women and children is accepted as inevitable. After more than 30 airstrikes on civilian homes this year in Afghanistan, President Hamid Karzai has demanded that such attacks end, but the practice continues in areas of Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen that are not in any war zone. We don’t know how many hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed in these attacks, each one approved by the highest authorities in Washington. This would have been unthinkable in previous times.>>

[Enthusiast]

105. Kicked and Recommended! nt

[MrMickeysMom]

108. Keeping this kicked, too...

(though my K&R skills are stuck at this font!)

You know, you can't just decide which laws are worth paying attention to and which you turn your back on while they are violated. It's not supposed to work that way. How much loss of your civil liberties will it take?

BTW, I've got the same problem locally in reverse with those trying to stand behind their "golden boy" here, even if it means ignoring when said authority ignored the civil rights of many, many others. When it comes to "we the people", let's not forget who that is about. Snowden is calling attention to the "we" part that has been trashed over and over by those who have gained so much military power. Doesn't that mean anything to some people here on DU?

Snowden can be accused of civil disobedience without somehow being seen as a "traitor"... even Jimmy Carter will tell you. Meanwhile, apologists to what the Obama administration has endorsed (all of the "laws" which trample over our civil rights, especially in civil protest to how those rights have been repeatedly been violated).... would you kindly open up your tired eyes?

(Had to get a Neil Young reference in there)

K & R

[chervilant]

109. If more prominent individuals worldwide

would speak this truth:

At a time when popular revolutions are sweeping the globe, the United States should be strengthening, not weakening, basic rules of law and principles of justice enumerated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But instead of making the world safer, America’s violation of international human rights abets our enemies and alienates our friends.

This should be our focus, *NOT* wasting time and energy *PROVING* that Snowden (and Manning, and Assange) are "enemies of the state."

[WovenGems]

110. WRONG!!!!

Citizen United ruined our democracy. NSA is like Gladys Kravitz.

[Turbineguy]

112. I always thought: "It can't happen here."

But it's already done. We now have the "have littles" shooting the "have nots".

[Laelth]

113. k&r for James Earl Carter, Jr. n/t

-Laelth

[Ichingcarpenter]

115. Carter will never be ass kissed at the obama's whitehouse now

Like Bush was

LOL........

[Oilwellian]

131. I think we knew that early on

K&R

[Ichingcarpenter]

134. Notice Both Bushie's surround him

not the democratic presidents.
I know the body language but the two bush is revealing.in itself.

[Lifelong Protester]

145. I've always noticed in these photos

and there have been a few, like the opening of the coloring book library of W, IIRC, and President Carter is always off to the side. I think he definitely is a thinking man, in a different league than the others in the photo.

[Catherina]

157. If he ran again, he'd win. Precsely for that reason

He's always off to the side with them.

[roamer65]

205. Very interesting photograph.

The pecking order really shows up in that one.

[L0oniX]

140. But Obama looks so uhm presidential. Where's Bo?

[TheJames]

155. Picture worth a thousand words,

and I'm gonna add a few words anyway. This picture tells it all. Look at all the Corporate crap piled together, and Jimmy standing alone. I mean, really. Look at Carters body language, expression, distancing, etc. All he's got in common with those flunkies is the ex-presidency and gender.

[Le Taz Hot]

118. K&R

For our greatest living president.

[Smarmie Doofus]

125. If he thought he was a "non-person" before........

>>>> I think the American people deserve to know what their Congress is doing.” - Jimmy Carter >>>>

We also deserve to know what Congress is NOT doing.

K and R

[WillyT]

128. K & R !!!

[xchrom]

129. du rec.

[heaven05]

133. this

individual has lost ALL credibility with me. Don't want to hear it, jimmy.

[markiv]

135. Program Note: Todays 'Two Minutes Hate', will feature Jimmy Carter

dont be soft on those hisses and boos, he's the enemy now. we'll be watching you

probably was all along!

[Safetykitten]

146. Carter has given missives in the last couple of weeks that have the devotees of this guy...

head spins! This is comedy gold.

[99th_Monkey]

150. K & R - You beat me to it Catherina. LOL.

I saw this upon waking PST, and was rushing to post it on DU,
but there it was, already posted by Catherina. check.

[Catherina]

156. Where did you see it?

It's been getting a lot of exposure

[99th_Monkey]

163. Sorry but I don't remember

That was before my second cup of Joe .. but I do recall it was a rather obscure
publication I wasn't familiar with, but I deleted the window when I saw your
post.

[quinnox]

151. K&R, good to see Pres. Carter's support

despite the best efforts of some apparent Fox news wanna-bes to distort his words, its very clear what Carter is saying here.

[roamer65]

154. We haven't had a functioning democracy since November 2000.

Glad a former president has the courage to say it.

[polichick]

159. Sad but true. Kudos to President Carter for speaking the truth.

[Conium]

161. Jimmy is right.

While what Snowden did was wrong, what Congress (and Bush) did was deplorable.

It is important to remember that there was plenty of intel prior to 9-11 and the Bush administration chose to ignore it. More information wasn't needed.

[roamer65]

206. Run, Jimmy....RUN!

I'd vote for you in heartbeat.

[another_liberal]

168. President Carter sets the bar high for other former Presidents.

In his moral courage and commitment to justice, he stands head and shoulders above the rest. He is a truly great man.

[Duval]

172. Thanks, Catherina. Have posted on Facebook!! n/t

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

175. At least we have a functioning President. nt

[blackspade]

177. Carter is the best president of my lifetime

+1000

[Savannahmann]

180. No matter who sings the song.

The defenders of the faith, the apologists just won't hear it. There is only one song they recognize, and that is that our nation is above those pesky treaties, laws, and constitutions.

From greatest nation on earth, to Banana Republic in a few short generations.

[Blue_Tires]

182. Hell, I was already saying that after Citizens United...

[kentuck]

185. Jimmy Carter is very credible.

I listen to what he has to say.

[PufPuf23]

186. Kick and Rec for Carter and Catherina. Good reads. nt

[live love laugh]

190. Thank you PRESIDENT Carter. I have and always will love him. nt

[HooptieWagon]

191. President Carter is 100% correct.

No doubt the apologists will call him racist, libertarian, and a traitor....then throw him under the bus with other Democratic leaders.

[indepat]

198. I voted for Carter, against the gipper and GHWB, for Clinton, against junior, and for

Obama. I'm with Carter on this one and am confident he would not speak out against a Democratic administration's actions that were not well off the bell curve on a crucial issue. Hail to the former chief.

[deurbano]

203. "I'm with Carter on this one and am confident he would not speak out against a Democratic

administration's actions that were not well off the bell curve on a crucial issue."

That's exactly how I see it.

[Zorra]

199. K&R It's true we no longer have a functioning democracy. We have a plutarchy. nt

[woo me with science]

237. +1

[limpyhobbler]

202. seems like a lot of people agree, our democracy is kind of messed up. nt

[roamer65]

209. I am now a Carter Center donor.

[Sparkly]

210. The NYTimes editorial doesn't mention Snowden.

Just sayin'.

[myrna minx]

212. K&R n/t

[roamer65]

214. If you haven't seen it, watch his July 15, 1979 address.

He hits the nail right on head in that address and it is obvious we took the path he defined as tragedy.

Google it, it's on YouTube.

[idwiyo]

215. K&R

[nadinbrzezinski]

222. He is correct

[woo me with science]

235. He stands apart from all recent Presidents. American democracy and the Constitution

versus selling out.

[roamer65]

239. Notice how the monkey W has to put himself front and center.

[Catherina]

255. In every picture too. I have yet to see a picture of them not pushing Carter to the side

He's like the Henry A. Wallace that got through and they're making sure that never happens again

[tabasco]

253. Jimmy's right

This nation is a plutocracy.