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I'm stunned. I'm speechless. My last shred of respect for the law is all-but-gone. (Original Post) Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 OP
Yes Dwayne Hicks Jul 2013 #1
yep rurallib Jul 2013 #2
Heck, I'm making a list as we speak! WinkyDink Jul 2013 #3
Agent Bob? OMG-- Jackpine Radical Jul 2013 #51
Hee---I knew I goofed! WinkyDink Jul 2013 #74
No, we now rate two agents tavalon Jul 2013 #78
Someone stood their ground awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #135
In Florida Just Saying Jul 2013 #4
Only if you are white and they are not. roody Jul 2013 #5
Is Zimmerman white? I don't think so. xtraxritical Jul 2013 #84
Zimmy ain't black, either. meanit Jul 2013 #85
white heaven05 Jul 2013 #88
Zim appears caucasian. roody Jul 2013 #101
Yep. He may be technically part Hispanic hifiguy Jul 2013 #102
That's the problem: the law didn't ensure justice in this case. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #6
That is the only logical answer I can come up with. nIt seems like that law on self-defense is avaistheone1 Jul 2013 #86
Unfortunately, I'm not surprised. NOLALady Jul 2013 #7
Katie, bar the door. Ruby the Liberal Jul 2013 #8
You can kill them at night in Texas if you say they're stealing something from you. nt valerief Jul 2013 #9
Jurors acted 100% in line with the law. That is the problem. The law is a bad law. BlueStreak Jul 2013 #10
This is straight self-defense law. X_Digger Jul 2013 #16
I don't believe that is correct. BlueStreak Jul 2013 #24
The circumstances leading to the confrontation ARE irrelevant galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #61
In states without the SYG law, you cannot CREATE the confrontation and then BlueStreak Jul 2013 #62
Err, that's like blaming a rape victim for getting drunk or wearing revealing clothes galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #68
Don't blame me. Blame ALEC. BlueStreak Jul 2013 #76
Creating the confrontation and self-defense has nothing to do with SYG X_Digger Jul 2013 #82
The laws the defense used, and the jury instructions.. X_Digger Jul 2013 #69
Perhaps, but the result is the same either way BlueStreak Jul 2013 #73
No, the prosecution was free to make that claim. X_Digger Jul 2013 #80
Being from Houston, Texas, you sure act like you have a lot invested in this case. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #58
Not Houston, DFW (Austin til 2002) X_Digger Jul 2013 #64
Is it "self defense" when you pick a fight, and when the other guy hits back, you shoot him? George II Jul 2013 #97
It is in Florida and a bunch of other states BlueStreak Jul 2013 #117
ALEC and the Republican Party MNBrewer Jul 2013 #115
It's disgusting RainDog Jul 2013 #11
Agreed! nt avebury Jul 2013 #12
I agree I never had any respect for the law gopiscrap Jul 2013 #13
That is silly talk. BlueStreak Jul 2013 #26
ALEC maybe the problem gopiscrap Jul 2013 #29
They don't care about Martin one way or another. They do care about fomenting conflicts among BlueStreak Jul 2013 #34
The 1% is more than happy to see the herd hifiguy Jul 2013 #104
You think they did this to kill Dem voters one at a time? BlueStreak Jul 2013 #113
And who do you think funds ALEC?... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #126
They don't do this to kill one potential Dem voter at a time BlueStreak Jul 2013 #127
Sets a pretty good precedent though for mass action.... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #134
I'm really sad about this steve2470 Jul 2013 #14
It's not perfect and this is Florida treestar Jul 2013 #15
Fucking vigilante cop wannabe. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #17
Only in certain States krawhitham Jul 2013 #18
That is exactly what it means - in FL at least. kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #19
Welcome to justice in America, white guy gets away with it quinnox Jul 2013 #20
white guy gets away with it AlbertCat Jul 2013 #81
He was, however, wealthy and famous and thus powerful. hifiguy Jul 2013 #105
My sister is an evidence tech, she has always maintained that there would have been a bloody TheKentuckian Jul 2013 #128
No, but he had millions Chakab Jul 2013 #106
No, but he had millions AlbertCat Jul 2013 #136
and then there's this... allin99 Jul 2013 #98
It's surprising, but it means they found that GZ was in fear of bodily harm. Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #21
It is time for those who are heavily invested emotionally to give it a rest BlueStreak Jul 2013 #38
Yeah. I thought manslaughter. Igel Jul 2013 #40
Sorry, I looked at the evidence objectively. nebenaube Jul 2013 #96
Reasonable people can disagree. I believe the jurors seriously considered manslaughter, but Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #121
No it is not reasonable... nebenaube Jul 2013 #125
Yes, thats exactly what it means and the gun loving f'kers cheer. DCBob Jul 2013 #22
an example of "gun loving f'kers cheering:" bobduca Jul 2013 #66
get your riot on... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #23
I will not blame ANYONE for protesting this verdict. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #28
ah, your fucking stupid laughter again... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #31
Nope, I'm in a large majority tonight, stunned and disgusted by the verdict... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #32
ah yes... the majority is always right... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #35
Wow... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #39
nah... you're too much fun in your misery ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #43
. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #45
hahahaha.... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #47
You're clearly an idiot. NealK Jul 2013 #63
"Majority is right" is another way of saying "mob rule" BlueStreak Jul 2013 #41
Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #44
. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #48
you... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #49
What we should be protesting is these ALEC laws that promote gun violence BlueStreak Jul 2013 #53
oh, and I am not attacking you ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #46
You may want to take a break Ruby the Liberal Jul 2013 #57
people like you are the reason the ignore button was invented. liberal_at_heart Jul 2013 #92
Only in Florida, and only if it's a black kid Kennah Jul 2013 #25
There is no justice system any longer dickthegrouch Jul 2013 #27
Is this lady tom_kelly Jul 2013 #30
Trial By Affirmation Media... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #33
The criminal/civil trial aspect reminds me of... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #37
A Different Standard... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #42
Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #72
He will not live a happy life. tblue Jul 2013 #107
This happens when RWers, conservatives, Teabaggers, libertarians & religious extremists are in power baldguy Jul 2013 #36
No, it doesn't mean that at all Bake Jul 2013 #50
Really I can't believe it. zeemike Jul 2013 #52
Zimmerman will never be a free man. Conium Jul 2013 #54
Welcome to DU Ruby the Liberal Jul 2013 #60
think I lost it on OJ PatrynXX Jul 2013 #55
It's been open season on Blacks in this country for over 200 years. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #56
Agreed. NealK Jul 2013 #65
True enough treestar Jul 2013 #77
At least in Florida. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #59
The American justice system is heavily stacked against African-Americans. Apophis Jul 2013 #67
I was preparing myself for this from the beginning. It hurts but not as much as it could've. To me craigmatic Jul 2013 #70
Law is simply a rhetorical construct. ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #71
Probably comes from the unnatural saturation Rex Jul 2013 #79
Murder is now legal in Florida Bettie Jul 2013 #75
No what this means is mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #83
I'm heaven05 Jul 2013 #87
That is so how I feel. Drained. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #89
"Stand Your Ground." blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #90
Only if you are white and the victim is black SHRED Jul 2013 #91
Only if you're white and they're black. This is America, home of racist Jesus-loving women haters. valerief Jul 2013 #93
"Load 'em up boys, and pack extra bullets--We're goin' black-boy huntin'!" lastlib Jul 2013 #94
Time for a boycott BlueinOhio Jul 2013 #95
Go ahead try it then get back to us if you can. Leontius Jul 2013 #99
Your post is nonsensical. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #100
That's not lost on gun owners. tblue Jul 2013 #103
But of course you have to do it in one of the states that has his kind of laws. My state does not. jwirr Jul 2013 #108
Yep. You're right on the money. classof56 Jul 2013 #109
The procecution did its job LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #110
As long as your in the Sunshine State... go for it. Agschmid Jul 2013 #111
only if they are Black, and even better if you are white JI7 Jul 2013 #112
I am, alas, neither stunned or shocked by this verdict. cali Jul 2013 #114
It's been a very long time since I've had any respect for the law. DLevine Jul 2013 #116
It's sick and disturbing. myrna minx Jul 2013 #118
Florida Jawja Jul 2013 #119
:( Whisp Jul 2013 #120
I've refrained from commenting until now. roamer65 Jul 2013 #122
When was dueling outlawed in the US? marshall Jul 2013 #123
My respect for the law vanished in Chicago in 1968. hobbit709 Jul 2013 #124
I had exhausted my Enthusiast Jul 2013 #129
Everytime justice isn't served, justice is crushed. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #130
There seems to have been a justice reset after Nixon. Enthusiast Jul 2013 #132
+1 Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #131
Just do not smoke a joint. Gregorian Jul 2013 #133
Not entirely. Only if you're white liberalhistorian Jul 2013 #137

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
78. No, we now rate two agents
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:21 PM
Jul 2013

Bigger place, ya know?

On a more serious note, this is yet another travesty of "justice"

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
6. That's the problem: the law didn't ensure justice in this case.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:11 PM
Jul 2013

The jury probably made the only decision they could have, given Florida law on self-defense. The problem is that law doesn't levy responsibility for the outcome of a confrontation on the person that initiated it.

And that ain't justice...

 

avaistheone1

(14,626 posts)
86. That is the only logical answer I can come up with. nIt seems like that law on self-defense is
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:32 PM
Jul 2013

what skewed the verdict in Zimmerman's favor.

I am really shocked. This doesn't feel like justice.

NOLALady

(4,003 posts)
7. Unfortunately, I'm not surprised.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:12 PM
Jul 2013

Murderers were routinely acquitted during the 60s by a jury of their peers.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
10. Jurors acted 100% in line with the law. That is the problem. The law is a bad law.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:13 PM
Jul 2013

Any other verdict would have been "jury nullification". I wish they would have nullified in this case.

But the irony is that the trial system worked. The result was 100% in line with the law. The problem is not "the system". The problem is the ALEC law.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
16. This is straight self-defense law.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:15 PM
Jul 2013

The defense relied on black-letter self-defense law, as it appears in one form or another, in all 50 states.

No 'stand your ground', no 'castle doctrine', etc.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
24. I don't believe that is correct.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:24 PM
Jul 2013

The defense atty in his closing arguments, while possibly not mentioning "stand your ground" by that name (I didn't listen to every word) talked in detail about how the circumstances leading up to the confrontation were irrelevant. That is straight out of SYG, and therefore the judge permitted it as part of the closing argument.

 

galileoreloaded

(2,571 posts)
61. The circumstances leading to the confrontation ARE irrelevant
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:59 PM
Jul 2013

there is a fine line with intent. Otherwise.... Oh never mind.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
62. In states without the SYG law, you cannot CREATE the confrontation and then
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:07 PM
Jul 2013

claim self-defense. At least that maneuver is not enshrined in law. In SYG states, the law explicitly says that it doesn't matter how you got to to the point where you felt you were threatened. Moreover, the ALEC SYG law says you just have to feel threatened. You don't actually have to be an inch away from losing your life to use the self-defense defense.

The issue is the law. It is not "the system" or "justice". Justice was carried out in accordance with the law. We need to change these laws.

 

galileoreloaded

(2,571 posts)
68. Err, that's like blaming a rape victim for getting drunk or wearing revealing clothes
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:13 PM
Jul 2013

And isn't really true. The escalation of force is judged on its merits, not preceding circumstances. Otherwise we would be having trials that started with what we ate for breakfast. It isn't a self defense case until it escalates, then it's parsed.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
82. Creating the confrontation and self-defense has nothing to do with SYG
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:27 PM
Jul 2013

Being the aggressor and later being able to claim self-defense- that's nothing to do with SYG.

The classic example of this is two guys in a bar..

One taps the other on the shoulder and says, "My pecker's bigger'n yours, wanna fight about it?" They stumble outside to engage in 'fisticuffs' and the first guy starts to get his ass kicked. He throws his hands up and says, "Fine, yours is bigger'n mine! I give up!"

The second guy continues to pound on the purported-pecker-fight-picker, making him (or a reasonable person in that situation) think that he's going to be killed or grievously wounded. After having tried to get away and being unable to do so, or having clearly communicated his intent to disengage, he would be justified in using deadly force in response.

That relies on a law from 1974- http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/776.041.html



X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
69. The laws the defense used, and the jury instructions..
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:14 PM
Jul 2013

.. didn't depend on, cite, or reference 'stand your ground'.

The jury instructions for a case relying on SYG are not the same. The defense may have alluded to it in closing arguments, but the judge never ruled on the admissibility of such a defense because the defense never asserted it. There would have been a couple more hearings, had that been so.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
73. Perhaps, but the result is the same either way
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:18 PM
Jul 2013

Because of SYG, the prosecution could not make the argument that Zimmerman created that confrontation and therefore must pay the consequences. They did their best to hint at it without actually saying that.

Florida is a SYG state, and that comes into play whether or not there is a specific SYG hearing.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
80. No, the prosecution was free to make that claim.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:21 PM
Jul 2013

The law used was from 1974.

There's no way to claim 'Because of SYG' if it wasn't used or cited.

Perhaps the defense knew how shaky such a claim would be, so they relied on standard self-defense (TM "ambushed" GZ and had him on the ground-- bullshit though that sounds, it's a classic self-defense claim.)

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
58. Being from Houston, Texas, you sure act like you have a lot invested in this case.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:57 PM
Jul 2013

You said you lived in Houston, Texas in your profile on DU2.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
64. Not Houston, DFW (Austin til 2002)
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:09 PM
Jul 2013

My profile at DU2 is still up, feel free to check.

I don't have anything 'invested' in this case, but I do keep abreast of self-defense law.

George II

(67,782 posts)
97. Is it "self defense" when you pick a fight, and when the other guy hits back, you shoot him?
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:14 AM
Jul 2013

Too bad Trayvon Martin isn't around to claim self defense, which was TRUE self defense!

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
117. It is in Florida and a bunch of other states
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 08:51 AM
Jul 2013

There are tedious arguments elsewhere on this thread that this wasn't technically a SYG case because that would have required extra forms and hearings. That completely misses the point. the ALEC / NRA laws have created the climate where it is considered normal and righteous to do what Zimmerman did.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
11. It's disgusting
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:13 PM
Jul 2013

I have also lost pretty much all respect for the law over the last few decades. This is one more horrible example.

gopiscrap

(23,674 posts)
13. I agree I never had any respect for the law
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:14 PM
Jul 2013

it's always been the one with the most power and money wins. I have never had any respect for any judge, prosecutor, clop or probation officer...they are all arrogant fucking tools of the monied

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
26. That is silly talk.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:25 PM
Jul 2013

Zimmerman has no power or money. The villain here is ALEC. The system worked. The jurors reached the only verdict they could given the evidence and the law. The problem is the law.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
34. They don't care about Martin one way or another. They do care about fomenting conflicts among
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:34 PM
Jul 2013

the lower classes, and the gun thing makes a great wedge issue -- i.e. a way to distract the masses while they are stealing our wealth.

I would agree there is that much of a connection. I would not agree that they are particularly in favor of seeing America's youth gunned down in cold blood. But that does make a very good distraction.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
104. The 1% is more than happy to see the herd
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:39 AM
Jul 2013

thinned without their doing anything active. Direct action to cull the populace via poverty and starvation will come with the next Repuke administration.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
113. You think they did this to kill Dem voters one at a time?
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 08:43 AM
Jul 2013

The 1% doesn't give a shit about Martin or any other teenage black kid. If they did, they would work with us to get the unemployment rate down below 15%

What the 1% loves is any shiny object that will distract the public from their organized crime. For 1 month this site has been essentially non-functional with the majority of threads going over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over every little thing about the Zimmerman case. And in the end, nobody had a clue.

What a waste of time. THIS is exactly what the 1% wants. Look over there. A Kardashian has her clothes off. Look over there. The President is using the IRS for political gains. Look over there. A black kid got killed.

How many young black kids have been gunned down in our cities' streets just in the time this trial was underway, but not one word about them. No, they weren't a shiny enough object to hold our attention.

Please give us the DU website back. There really are other important things in the world.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
126. And who do you think funds ALEC?...
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 10:37 AM
Jul 2013

It doesn't matter that Zimmerman has no money (even though his Diddy WAS a judge-that makes him part of the political support structure for the bourgeoisie), what matters is that he USED the ALEC law enacted by the toadies OF the bourgeoisie, to get away with murdering a black kid.

It's ALL interconnected.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
134. Sets a pretty good precedent though for mass action....
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:26 PM
Jul 2013

Those nasty organizers of the working class "threaten" the lives of the proto-fascists and, so, can be shot in self defense.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
14. I'm really sad about this
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:15 PM
Jul 2013

Granted, I was not in the jury box but I still think justice was not served. Zimmerman walks a free man after murdering an innocent black kid.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
17. Fucking vigilante cop wannabe.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:16 PM
Jul 2013

GZ PURSUED TM and was told NOT to. He could have waited for the cops but he didn't. Made himself judge, jury and executioner.

I have no respect left for the legal system, for several reasons.

I was a court reporter for twenty years, was a legal secretary before that, and also have a Juris Doctor (law degree).



The Federal civil rights violation/hate crime case is yet to come.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
20. Welcome to justice in America, white guy gets away with it
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:18 PM
Jul 2013

A racist jury allows him to go free. If Zimmerman had been a black dude, and Martin a white kid, Zimmerman would have been convicted and facing the death penalty or life in prison.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
105. He was, however, wealthy and famous and thus powerful.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:42 AM
Jul 2013

And that case was never the slam-dunk the media said it was. Dr. Henry Lee cut the prosecution's ludicrously sloppy forensics to ribbons, and the timeline was never solidly established. It was a winnable case, even with OJ's resources and great lawyers, that was lost by the prosecutors and the crime lab people.

He's in the Crowbar Hilton for a long time anyway.

TheKentuckian

(24,949 posts)
128. My sister is an evidence tech, she has always maintained that there would have been a bloody
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 11:03 AM
Jul 2013

house cleaning in her unit if they dropped the ball like was done in the OJ Simpson case and I put that at automatic reasonable doubt. Once the evidence is tainted, screwed up, shit is planted, and the custody chain is dicey that shouldn't be something a prosecution should EVER be able to overcome.

To dismiss such things is an open invitation for a rouge state powered by dirty cops and amoral DA's hell bent on getting their convictions up.

Our system convicts too often is the greater concern that not enough. Far too often the reasonable doubt bar is lowered all the way down to the state presenting something between a plausible story and the most plausible, either of which should be well shy of beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact too many have been exonerated and in hindsight the convictions would seem to be nearly baseless to highly circumstantial and should not have ever reached a guilty verdict under anything like an honest definition of beyond reasonable. There are often plenty of reasons for reasonable doubt but juries are weighted to the prosecution and defendants seldom can match resources with the state and instead have an overloaded PD that has tens of dollars to work with.

The burden is all supposed to be on the state, that means there are errors the state cannot ever be caught in and maintain a case. When it goes beyond errors to actively tainting the evidence, a judge should just dismiss the case as not guilty and call it a day. There should be no reason to deliberate, the state has officially and utterly screwed the pooch.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
21. It's surprising, but it means they found that GZ was in fear of bodily harm.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:20 PM
Jul 2013

This jury seems to have taken their time and went through the evidence.

Everyone had their day in court.

Many posters will be angry and upset. But many of them also just refused to see the evidence objectively. They were too emotionally invested in the case.

This jury saw and read ALL the evidence. No one in this forum has done that. I respect the verdict. Not sure that would've been my verdict, but as I've said, I would have to sit in a jury room and deliberate the evidence with other jurors.

I said that too much was being made of the jurors being mothers and being sympathetic to TM.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
38. It is time for those who are heavily invested emotionally to give it a rest
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:38 PM
Jul 2013

There are many injustices in our society. The whole area of gun violence -- our celebration of violence in general -- is one of those injustices. But it is not the only one. I encourage everyone to step away from the brink and try to come back when the bigger picture is easier to see.

Igel

(35,197 posts)
40. Yeah. I thought manslaughter.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:38 PM
Jul 2013

Not on evidence, but on a desire for some sort of punishment or retribution.

One could argue not self-defense but "depraved mind" to get him off 2nd murder. They went "self defense."

And what's left is personal vs. process, history vs individual.

 

nebenaube

(3,496 posts)
96. Sorry, I looked at the evidence objectively.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:04 AM
Jul 2013

Zimmerman is guilty. It was not a difficult case to make either. Had I been on the jury that is how I would have voted.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
121. Reasonable people can disagree. I believe the jurors seriously considered manslaughter, but
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 09:55 AM
Jul 2013

came down to not guilty. It was a very narrow question they had to decide. It didn't involve "should GZ have gotten out of his car." That's what people don't understand, I believe.

The question: When GZ was on bottom, being beaten up by TM (albeit not a strong "beating&quot , was it reasonable for GZ to fear great bodily harm?

I'm not sure I would've said he did have reason to fear that. But I might have, in deliberations with others who were looking at the same evidence as I was.

I'm not sure a gun was his only recourse. But then...what else could he have done? I'd prefer to hash this out in a room with other jurors.

Then, finally, there's the "walk away" thing. That GZ started this whole thing by acting unreasonably (not illegally, though) matters to me. But legally, it does not matter. If someone irritates you, that does not give you a legal right to beat the crap out of 'em. That's the law. But morally, should GZ walk away?

I would have preferred a lesser charge, where I'd be sure he got less than 10 years in prison. Or probation. Some punishment, but I don't think 30 years was warranted...he really was in a pickle at that moment.

 

nebenaube

(3,496 posts)
125. No it is not reasonable...
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 10:20 AM
Jul 2013

GZ had no fear at all or he would have fled. Instead, he fought, the moment he started fighting, all 'fear' had been channeled into a fight response. 'Fear' under that circumstance is physiologically impossible.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
22. Yes, thats exactly what it means and the gun loving f'kers cheer.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:20 PM
Jul 2013

Its a sad day for our justice system.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
23. get your riot on...
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:21 PM
Jul 2013

it's what you said you would gladly do. also, remember, you're rioting against the concept of a jury trial when you're out there. you're not rioting against the gov't (they arrested and tried him)... you're not even rioting against Zimmerman. you're rioting against the only thing that prevents the gov't from giving you NO DEFENSE at all...

go ahead... hope you don't get killed. i hope you don't kill anyone or destroy their livelihood... and if you do... i hope you get a jury trial even though you have lost all respect for our system of jurisprudence.

sP

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
31. ah, your fucking stupid laughter again...
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:31 PM
Jul 2013

it's all you have you raging hypocrite. the laughter is all coming your way... you look the fool... as usual.

sP

 

Cooley Hurd

(26,877 posts)
32. Nope, I'm in a large majority tonight, stunned and disgusted by the verdict...
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:32 PM
Jul 2013

You, attacking me during this, are the fool.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
43. nah... you're too much fun in your misery
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:40 PM
Jul 2013

the majority is always right? is that really what you meant to say? talk about wow...

you know, I will let you have the last word... because it won't matter. once again, i hope you are never on the losing side of 'majority is always right'...

sP

Response to BlueStreak (Reply #41)

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
46. oh, and I am not attacking you
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:42 PM
Jul 2013

just your idiocy in asserting the other night that rioting was the correct response to this verdict...

sP

Ruby the Liberal

(26,217 posts)
57. You may want to take a break
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:52 PM
Jul 2013

I wasn't even first, bu t like your hero, Zimmy, you skated.


At Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:50 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

ah, your fucking stupid laughter again...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3248066

The reason for the alert was:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

You added the following comments:

Enough, please. Personal attacks. Thank you, jury. -- RtL

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this post at Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:40 PM, and voted 3-3 to keep it.

Thank you.

dickthegrouch

(3,151 posts)
27. There is no justice system any longer
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:26 PM
Jul 2013

The 4th amendment has been utterly demolished.
Bankers are still free as birds.
Bush and Cheney are still free as birds.

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
33. Trial By Affirmation Media...
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:33 PM
Jul 2013

...it was real apparent in this case. If you thought Zimmerman was innocent you gravitated towards Faux while if you thought he should be convicted, MSNBC was saying what you wanted to hear. It's far removed than what goes on inside that court and especially in that jury room. While you got hours of "anal-isis" from people who agreed with you and showed similar outrage, that wasn't the case among the jurors...especially when it came to deciding beyond reasonable doubt when you had a prosecution team that kept asking questions rather than building their own definitive narrative. In the end the jury acted on the letter of the law...not the emotions of teevee lawyers...and that's how they arrived at this verdict.

I don't agree with it...but it's more along the lines of how "self-defense" is defined in the law and while Martin' murder was horrendous, unfortunately this jury found the evidence lacking to convict. I'm hoping for a civil trial where the bar is lower and Zimmerman's profiling could be brought into the case...

 

Cooley Hurd

(26,877 posts)
37. The criminal/civil trial aspect reminds me of...
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:37 PM
Jul 2013

...the OJ thing. He was sued into bankruptcy - probably why he had to try to pull off the armed robbery.

There might be justice out there somewhere.

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
42. A Different Standard...
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:39 PM
Jul 2013

...in a civil case. I would hope the Martin family will sue for wrongful death...similar to how the Brown family went after O.J. If for just their own peace of mind...and to keep Zimmerman from writing a book and profiting from this ordeal.

Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #42)

tblue

(16,350 posts)
107. He will not live a happy life.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:46 AM
Jul 2013

Nope. He's celebrating now but the ghost of Trayvon will haunt him forever. His life is cursed. He'll do time eventually, or something.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
36. This happens when RWers, conservatives, Teabaggers, libertarians & religious extremists are in power
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:35 PM
Jul 2013

And why we have to fight them at every turn, at every level.

Bake

(21,977 posts)
50. No, it doesn't mean that at all
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:44 PM
Jul 2013

It means six Florida jurors couldn't unanimously vote to convict in a case with some seriously manufactured "reasonable doubt."

You can't draw generalizations about the whole legal system from one case.

Bake

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
52. Really I can't believe it.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:45 PM
Jul 2013

I thought maybe manslaughter might be the cop out verdict....but not guilty?

Fuck it....I think I have gone to sleep and have woken up in some other world...
We really are fucked.

Conium

(119 posts)
54. Zimmerman will never be a free man.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:50 PM
Jul 2013

He will be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. His sleazy lawyer got him acquitted by putting the victim on trial. Karma will catch up with George Zimmerman wherever he goes.

Ruby the Liberal

(26,217 posts)
60. Welcome to DU
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:57 PM
Jul 2013

Oh, and one can only hope that this man never has another night's sound sleep during his natural life.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
56. It's been open season on Blacks in this country for over 200 years.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:52 PM
Jul 2013

I'm not surprised one bit.

This case could have happened in Minnesota, Idaho, Nevada, or any of 2 dozen other states and wound up with the same result -- 1 dead black kid, 1 broken black family, and no one going to jail for it.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
77. True enough
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:20 PM
Jul 2013

And you'd think this case might have been the one to break that trend. Zimmerman was so obviously a profiling cop wanna be.

 

Apophis

(1,407 posts)
67. The American justice system is heavily stacked against African-Americans.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:12 PM
Jul 2013

If someone kills a black man, they'll always get off. If a black man kills a white man, the black man will go to prison or be sent to the chair.

 

craigmatic

(4,510 posts)
70. I was preparing myself for this from the beginning. It hurts but not as much as it could've. To me
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:14 PM
Jul 2013

it feels like black people have been losing alot lately.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
79. Probably comes from the unnatural saturation
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:21 PM
Jul 2013

rate of cop movies, shows, episodes etc that covers cable TV. Kinda like how COPS is the number one show ever made. People feel strange when their natural concepts of order are given contradictory stimuli. Killing someone is usually a crime. Most of the time.

Bettie

(15,998 posts)
75. Murder is now legal in Florida
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:18 PM
Jul 2013

All you have to do is say "I was skeered" and you can kill anyone you please.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
87. I'm
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:32 PM
Jul 2013

out. I need to sleep before I explode. What a travesty in florida..The cops, judge, defense, prosecution. SHAM JUSTICE!!!!!!!! All the zimpig apologists/logicists are popping those champagne corks.

lastlib

(22,981 posts)
94. "Load 'em up boys, and pack extra bullets--We're goin' black-boy huntin'!"
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:54 PM
Jul 2013

That's pretty much the message.

. . . . . . . . . . .

I mourn for America.

BlueinOhio

(238 posts)
95. Time for a boycott
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:02 AM
Jul 2013

Florida is acting irresponsibly so take action. I canceled a vacation to Disney over this. I will not take my family there as long as this is going to be allowed. What's next, a robber shooting his victim and getting by with it all he has to say is that he was defending himself. Cut out spending money there. Write to Disney and the others demanding a change or they will not get thin dime. This is a hugh disappointment, this country has taken a giant step back in the wrong direction.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
108. But of course you have to do it in one of the states that has his kind of laws. My state does not.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:52 AM
Jul 2013

Thank God and a lot of good politicians.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,154 posts)
110. The procecution did its job
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 01:24 AM
Jul 2013

The job they had was to make sure they lost the case. The special prosecutor, Angela Corey, is a Republican appointed by Florida’s Republican governor, Rick Scott.

George Zimmerman prosecutors have proved his innocence, says lawyer

In his closing arguments at Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial in Sanford, Florida, Mark O'Mara said it was "a bizarro case" in which prosecutors themselves had proven his client's "pure, unadulterated innocence" beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
114. I am, alas, neither stunned or shocked by this verdict.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 08:46 AM
Jul 2013

But it does not mean that you can pick a fight with anyone and kill them and get away with it. This was Floriduh.

DLevine

(1,788 posts)
116. It's been a very long time since I've had any respect for the law.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 08:49 AM
Jul 2013

This verdict, however, is just beyond disgusting. Open season on black males in Florida. Horrific.

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
122. I've refrained from commenting until now.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 10:00 AM
Jul 2013

I am a gun owner and even I thought the guy should have gotten manslaughter.

Sad, sad stuff.

My heart goes out to Trayvon's family.


marshall

(6,661 posts)
123. When was dueling outlawed in the US?
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 10:07 AM
Jul 2013

I recall the death of Alexander Hamilton. Aaron burr basically picked a fight with him over a published comment Hamilton said he couldn't remember making. Burr challenged Hamilton to a duel, and I suppose the code of expectations put Hamilton in a position of having to accept.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
129. I had exhausted my
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 11:09 AM
Jul 2013

respect for law and order well before this trial.

An administration falsified intelligence to justify an unnecessary war and the crime was completely ignored. The evidence is right there in our face, yet nothing. Said war resulted in the suffering and deaths of hundreds of thousands. There is no modern criminal equivalent. The Wall Street theft of 2008 is only theft but it also represents a massive breech of justice. Wall Street thieves were actually rewarded.

There will be no justice in Southern states when race is a factor. These jurists probably watch Fox "News" -a right wing network dedicated to the advancement of racism and fascism.

 

Cooley Hurd

(26,877 posts)
130. Everytime justice isn't served, justice is crushed.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 11:39 AM
Jul 2013

Ford's pardon of Nixon was the beginning of it for me. I was 9 and, even at 9, I realized that a guilty person was getting off scot-free.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
132. There seems to have been a justice reset after Nixon.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 11:46 AM
Jul 2013

Then they didn't get to the heart (G H W Bush) of Iran-Contra. That nation has never been the same. The intell community has essentially been a criminal arm of the government since. That is just my take from my limited perspective.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
133. Just do not smoke a joint.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:21 PM
Jul 2013

Imagine how some of us felt when someone like Pete Wilson introduced the law "Smoke a joint- lose your license".

Some of us have been in this place a long long time. I have pretty crap words for this country in many ways. Not that bad stuff doesn't happen else where.

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