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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm stunned. I'm speechless. My last shred of respect for the law is all-but-gone.
What THIS means is that I can pick a fight with anyone I want, and if they defend themselves, I can shoot them in the heart.
Dwayne Hicks
(637 posts)That is what this exactly means.
rurallib
(62,346 posts)legalized murder.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)JUST KIDDING, AGENT BOB.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Did something happen to Agent Mike?
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)tavalon
(27,985 posts)Bigger place, ya know?
On a more serious note, this is yet another travesty of "justice"
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Yes.
Have at it! Apparently it's a free for all!
roody
(10,849 posts)xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)meanit
(455 posts)n/t
heaven05
(18,124 posts)enough.
roody
(10,849 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)but he looks as white as I do.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)The jury probably made the only decision they could have, given Florida law on self-defense. The problem is that law doesn't levy responsibility for the outcome of a confrontation on the person that initiated it.
And that ain't justice...
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)what skewed the verdict in Zimmerman's favor.
I am really shocked. This doesn't feel like justice.
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)Murderers were routinely acquitted during the 60s by a jury of their peers.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,217 posts)Holy shit.
valerief
(53,235 posts)BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)Any other verdict would have been "jury nullification". I wish they would have nullified in this case.
But the irony is that the trial system worked. The result was 100% in line with the law. The problem is not "the system". The problem is the ALEC law.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)The defense relied on black-letter self-defense law, as it appears in one form or another, in all 50 states.
No 'stand your ground', no 'castle doctrine', etc.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)The defense atty in his closing arguments, while possibly not mentioning "stand your ground" by that name (I didn't listen to every word) talked in detail about how the circumstances leading up to the confrontation were irrelevant. That is straight out of SYG, and therefore the judge permitted it as part of the closing argument.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)there is a fine line with intent. Otherwise.... Oh never mind.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)claim self-defense. At least that maneuver is not enshrined in law. In SYG states, the law explicitly says that it doesn't matter how you got to to the point where you felt you were threatened. Moreover, the ALEC SYG law says you just have to feel threatened. You don't actually have to be an inch away from losing your life to use the self-defense defense.
The issue is the law. It is not "the system" or "justice". Justice was carried out in accordance with the law. We need to change these laws.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)And isn't really true. The escalation of force is judged on its merits, not preceding circumstances. Otherwise we would be having trials that started with what we ate for breakfast. It isn't a self defense case until it escalates, then it's parsed.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Being the aggressor and later being able to claim self-defense- that's nothing to do with SYG.
The classic example of this is two guys in a bar..
One taps the other on the shoulder and says, "My pecker's bigger'n yours, wanna fight about it?" They stumble outside to engage in 'fisticuffs' and the first guy starts to get his ass kicked. He throws his hands up and says, "Fine, yours is bigger'n mine! I give up!"
The second guy continues to pound on the purported-pecker-fight-picker, making him (or a reasonable person in that situation) think that he's going to be killed or grievously wounded. After having tried to get away and being unable to do so, or having clearly communicated his intent to disengage, he would be justified in using deadly force in response.
That relies on a law from 1974- http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/776.041.html
X_Digger
(18,585 posts).. didn't depend on, cite, or reference 'stand your ground'.
The jury instructions for a case relying on SYG are not the same. The defense may have alluded to it in closing arguments, but the judge never ruled on the admissibility of such a defense because the defense never asserted it. There would have been a couple more hearings, had that been so.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)Because of SYG, the prosecution could not make the argument that Zimmerman created that confrontation and therefore must pay the consequences. They did their best to hint at it without actually saying that.
Florida is a SYG state, and that comes into play whether or not there is a specific SYG hearing.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)The law used was from 1974.
There's no way to claim 'Because of SYG' if it wasn't used or cited.
Perhaps the defense knew how shaky such a claim would be, so they relied on standard self-defense (TM "ambushed" GZ and had him on the ground-- bullshit though that sounds, it's a classic self-defense claim.)
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)You said you lived in Houston, Texas in your profile on DU2.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)My profile at DU2 is still up, feel free to check.
I don't have anything 'invested' in this case, but I do keep abreast of self-defense law.
George II
(67,782 posts)Too bad Trayvon Martin isn't around to claim self defense, which was TRUE self defense!
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)There are tedious arguments elsewhere on this thread that this wasn't technically a SYG case because that would have required extra forms and hearings. That completely misses the point. the ALEC / NRA laws have created the climate where it is considered normal and righteous to do what Zimmerman did.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)RainDog
(28,784 posts)I have also lost pretty much all respect for the law over the last few decades. This is one more horrible example.
avebury
(10,946 posts)gopiscrap
(23,674 posts)it's always been the one with the most power and money wins. I have never had any respect for any judge, prosecutor, clop or probation officer...they are all arrogant fucking tools of the monied
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)Zimmerman has no power or money. The villain here is ALEC. The system worked. The jurors reached the only verdict they could given the evidence and the law. The problem is the law.
gopiscrap
(23,674 posts)but the rich and monied used Zimmerman as a pawn
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)the lower classes, and the gun thing makes a great wedge issue -- i.e. a way to distract the masses while they are stealing our wealth.
I would agree there is that much of a connection. I would not agree that they are particularly in favor of seeing America's youth gunned down in cold blood. But that does make a very good distraction.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)thinned without their doing anything active. Direct action to cull the populace via poverty and starvation will come with the next Repuke administration.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)The 1% doesn't give a shit about Martin or any other teenage black kid. If they did, they would work with us to get the unemployment rate down below 15%
What the 1% loves is any shiny object that will distract the public from their organized crime. For 1 month this site has been essentially non-functional with the majority of threads going over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over every little thing about the Zimmerman case. And in the end, nobody had a clue.
What a waste of time. THIS is exactly what the 1% wants. Look over there. A Kardashian has her clothes off. Look over there. The President is using the IRS for political gains. Look over there. A black kid got killed.
How many young black kids have been gunned down in our cities' streets just in the time this trial was underway, but not one word about them. No, they weren't a shiny enough object to hold our attention.
Please give us the DU website back. There really are other important things in the world.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)It doesn't matter that Zimmerman has no money (even though his Diddy WAS a judge-that makes him part of the political support structure for the bourgeoisie), what matters is that he USED the ALEC law enacted by the toadies OF the bourgeoisie, to get away with murdering a black kid.
It's ALL interconnected.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)Those nasty organizers of the working class "threaten" the lives of the proto-fascists and, so, can be shot in self defense.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Granted, I was not in the jury box but I still think justice was not served. Zimmerman walks a free man after murdering an innocent black kid.
treestar
(82,383 posts)There's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)GZ PURSUED TM and was told NOT to. He could have waited for the cops but he didn't. Made himself judge, jury and executioner.
I have no respect left for the legal system, for several reasons.
I was a court reporter for twenty years, was a legal secretary before that, and also have a Juris Doctor (law degree).
The Federal civil rights violation/hate crime case is yet to come.
krawhitham
(4,634 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)A racist jury allows him to go free. If Zimmerman had been a black dude, and Martin a white kid, Zimmerman would have been convicted and facing the death penalty or life in prison.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)OJ wasn't white.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)And that case was never the slam-dunk the media said it was. Dr. Henry Lee cut the prosecution's ludicrously sloppy forensics to ribbons, and the timeline was never solidly established. It was a winnable case, even with OJ's resources and great lawyers, that was lost by the prosecutors and the crime lab people.
He's in the Crowbar Hilton for a long time anyway.
TheKentuckian
(24,949 posts)house cleaning in her unit if they dropped the ball like was done in the OJ Simpson case and I put that at automatic reasonable doubt. Once the evidence is tainted, screwed up, shit is planted, and the custody chain is dicey that shouldn't be something a prosecution should EVER be able to overcome.
To dismiss such things is an open invitation for a rouge state powered by dirty cops and amoral DA's hell bent on getting their convictions up.
Our system convicts too often is the greater concern that not enough. Far too often the reasonable doubt bar is lowered all the way down to the state presenting something between a plausible story and the most plausible, either of which should be well shy of beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact too many have been exonerated and in hindsight the convictions would seem to be nearly baseless to highly circumstantial and should not have ever reached a guilty verdict under anything like an honest definition of beyond reasonable. There are often plenty of reasons for reasonable doubt but juries are weighted to the prosecution and defendants seldom can match resources with the state and instead have an overloaded PD that has tens of dollars to work with.
The burden is all supposed to be on the state, that means there are errors the state cannot ever be caught in and maintain a case. When it goes beyond errors to actively tainting the evidence, a judge should just dismiss the case as not guilty and call it a day. There should be no reason to deliberate, the state has officially and utterly screwed the pooch.
Chakab
(1,727 posts)to blow on a bunch of high-profile lawyers.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Not to mention he was a big sports star.
allin99
(894 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)This jury seems to have taken their time and went through the evidence.
Everyone had their day in court.
Many posters will be angry and upset. But many of them also just refused to see the evidence objectively. They were too emotionally invested in the case.
This jury saw and read ALL the evidence. No one in this forum has done that. I respect the verdict. Not sure that would've been my verdict, but as I've said, I would have to sit in a jury room and deliberate the evidence with other jurors.
I said that too much was being made of the jurors being mothers and being sympathetic to TM.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)There are many injustices in our society. The whole area of gun violence -- our celebration of violence in general -- is one of those injustices. But it is not the only one. I encourage everyone to step away from the brink and try to come back when the bigger picture is easier to see.
Igel
(35,197 posts)Not on evidence, but on a desire for some sort of punishment or retribution.
One could argue not self-defense but "depraved mind" to get him off 2nd murder. They went "self defense."
And what's left is personal vs. process, history vs individual.
nebenaube
(3,496 posts)Zimmerman is guilty. It was not a difficult case to make either. Had I been on the jury that is how I would have voted.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)came down to not guilty. It was a very narrow question they had to decide. It didn't involve "should GZ have gotten out of his car." That's what people don't understand, I believe.
The question: When GZ was on bottom, being beaten up by TM (albeit not a strong "beating" , was it reasonable for GZ to fear great bodily harm?
I'm not sure I would've said he did have reason to fear that. But I might have, in deliberations with others who were looking at the same evidence as I was.
I'm not sure a gun was his only recourse. But then...what else could he have done? I'd prefer to hash this out in a room with other jurors.
Then, finally, there's the "walk away" thing. That GZ started this whole thing by acting unreasonably (not illegally, though) matters to me. But legally, it does not matter. If someone irritates you, that does not give you a legal right to beat the crap out of 'em. That's the law. But morally, should GZ walk away?
I would have preferred a lesser charge, where I'd be sure he got less than 10 years in prison. Or probation. Some punishment, but I don't think 30 years was warranted...he really was in a pickle at that moment.
nebenaube
(3,496 posts)GZ had no fear at all or he would have fled. Instead, he fought, the moment he started fighting, all 'fear' had been channeled into a fight response. 'Fear' under that circumstance is physiologically impossible.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Its a sad day for our justice system.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)We disagreed this week on NSA/Snowden stuff but I'm sure we can find common cause here.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)it's what you said you would gladly do. also, remember, you're rioting against the concept of a jury trial when you're out there. you're not rioting against the gov't (they arrested and tried him)... you're not even rioting against Zimmerman. you're rioting against the only thing that prevents the gov't from giving you NO DEFENSE at all...
go ahead... hope you don't get killed. i hope you don't kill anyone or destroy their livelihood... and if you do... i hope you get a jury trial even though you have lost all respect for our system of jurisprudence.
sP
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Oh... it's YOU!
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)it's all you have you raging hypocrite. the laughter is all coming your way... you look the fool... as usual.
sP
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)You, attacking me during this, are the fool.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)i hope you are never on the losing end of that deal...
sP
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)You're actually creepy tonight.
Go away.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)the majority is always right? is that really what you meant to say? talk about wow...
you know, I will let you have the last word... because it won't matter. once again, i hope you are never on the losing side of 'majority is always right'...
sP
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)NealK
(1,791 posts)I feel sorry for you.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)Response to BlueStreak (Reply #41)
Post removed
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)just your idiocy in asserting the other night that rioting was the correct response to this verdict...
sP
Ruby the Liberal
(26,217 posts)I wasn't even first, bu t like your hero, Zimmy, you skated.
At Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:50 PM you sent an alert on the following post:
ah, your fucking stupid laughter again...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3248066
The reason for the alert was:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
You added the following comments:
Enough, please. Personal attacks. Thank you, jury. -- RtL
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this post at Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:40 PM, and voted 3-3 to keep it.
Thank you.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Kennah
(14,116 posts)dickthegrouch
(3,151 posts)The 4th amendment has been utterly demolished.
Bankers are still free as birds.
Bush and Cheney are still free as birds.
tom_kelly
(951 posts)trying out for a drama part? Geez
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...it was real apparent in this case. If you thought Zimmerman was innocent you gravitated towards Faux while if you thought he should be convicted, MSNBC was saying what you wanted to hear. It's far removed than what goes on inside that court and especially in that jury room. While you got hours of "anal-isis" from people who agreed with you and showed similar outrage, that wasn't the case among the jurors...especially when it came to deciding beyond reasonable doubt when you had a prosecution team that kept asking questions rather than building their own definitive narrative. In the end the jury acted on the letter of the law...not the emotions of teevee lawyers...and that's how they arrived at this verdict.
I don't agree with it...but it's more along the lines of how "self-defense" is defined in the law and while Martin' murder was horrendous, unfortunately this jury found the evidence lacking to convict. I'm hoping for a civil trial where the bar is lower and Zimmerman's profiling could be brought into the case...
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)...the OJ thing. He was sued into bankruptcy - probably why he had to try to pull off the armed robbery.
There might be justice out there somewhere.
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...in a civil case. I would hope the Martin family will sue for wrongful death...similar to how the Brown family went after O.J. If for just their own peace of mind...and to keep Zimmerman from writing a book and profiting from this ordeal.
Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #42)
Name removed Message auto-removed
tblue
(16,350 posts)Nope. He's celebrating now but the ghost of Trayvon will haunt him forever. His life is cursed. He'll do time eventually, or something.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)And why we have to fight them at every turn, at every level.
Bake
(21,977 posts)It means six Florida jurors couldn't unanimously vote to convict in a case with some seriously manufactured "reasonable doubt."
You can't draw generalizations about the whole legal system from one case.
Bake
zeemike
(18,998 posts)I thought maybe manslaughter might be the cop out verdict....but not guilty?
Fuck it....I think I have gone to sleep and have woken up in some other world...
We really are fucked.
Conium
(119 posts)He will be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. His sleazy lawyer got him acquitted by putting the victim on trial. Karma will catch up with George Zimmerman wherever he goes.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,217 posts)Oh, and one can only hope that this man never has another night's sound sleep during his natural life.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)this was like a rigged jury. almost expect Al Capone to jump out
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)I'm not surprised one bit.
This case could have happened in Minnesota, Idaho, Nevada, or any of 2 dozen other states and wound up with the same result -- 1 dead black kid, 1 broken black family, and no one going to jail for it.
NealK
(1,791 posts)It's been the equivalent of a lynching.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And you'd think this case might have been the one to break that trend. Zimmerman was so obviously a profiling cop wanna be.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Apophis
(1,407 posts)If someone kills a black man, they'll always get off. If a black man kills a white man, the black man will go to prison or be sent to the chair.
craigmatic
(4,510 posts)it feels like black people have been losing alot lately.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)It never really deserved your respect.
Rex
(65,616 posts)rate of cop movies, shows, episodes etc that covers cable TV. Kinda like how COPS is the number one show ever made. People feel strange when their natural concepts of order are given contradictory stimuli. Killing someone is usually a crime. Most of the time.
Bettie
(15,998 posts)All you have to do is say "I was skeered" and you can kill anyone you please.
mstinamotorcity2
(1,451 posts)Children of Color have never, will never, can never be safe in America!!!NEVER!!!!!!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)out. I need to sleep before I explode. What a travesty in florida..The cops, judge, defense, prosecution. SHAM JUSTICE!!!!!!!! All the zimpig apologists/logicists are popping those champagne corks.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)Get the HELL out of FL!
SHRED
(28,136 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)lastlib
(22,981 posts)That's pretty much the message.
. . . . . . . . . . .
I mourn for America.
BlueinOhio
(238 posts)Florida is acting irresponsibly so take action. I canceled a vacation to Disney over this. I will not take my family there as long as this is going to be allowed. What's next, a robber shooting his victim and getting by with it all he has to say is that he was defending himself. Cut out spending money there. Write to Disney and the others demanding a change or they will not get thin dime. This is a hugh disappointment, this country has taken a giant step back in the wrong direction.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)tblue
(16,350 posts)Yeah, you are supposed to cower in fear. That's what they want.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Thank God and a lot of good politicians.
classof56
(5,376 posts)Be careful and be safe. There's nowhere to turn.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,154 posts)The job they had was to make sure they lost the case. The special prosecutor, Angela Corey, is a Republican appointed by Floridas Republican governor, Rick Scott.
George Zimmerman prosecutors have proved his innocence, says lawyer
In his closing arguments at Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial in Sanford, Florida, Mark O'Mara said it was "a bizarro case" in which prosecutors themselves had proven his client's "pure, unadulterated innocence" beyond a reasonable doubt.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Ridiculous if you ask me.
JI7
(89,182 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)But it does not mean that you can pick a fight with anyone and kill them and get away with it. This was Floriduh.
DLevine
(1,788 posts)This verdict, however, is just beyond disgusting. Open season on black males in Florida. Horrific.
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)Jawja
(3,233 posts)Now has legal lynching. That's the message from this tragedy of a verdict.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)me too.
jesus.
roamer65
(36,739 posts)I am a gun owner and even I thought the guy should have gotten manslaughter.
Sad, sad stuff.
My heart goes out to Trayvon's family.
marshall
(6,661 posts)I recall the death of Alexander Hamilton. Aaron burr basically picked a fight with him over a published comment Hamilton said he couldn't remember making. Burr challenged Hamilton to a duel, and I suppose the code of expectations put Hamilton in a position of having to accept.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)respect for law and order well before this trial.
An administration falsified intelligence to justify an unnecessary war and the crime was completely ignored. The evidence is right there in our face, yet nothing. Said war resulted in the suffering and deaths of hundreds of thousands. There is no modern criminal equivalent. The Wall Street theft of 2008 is only theft but it also represents a massive breech of justice. Wall Street thieves were actually rewarded.
There will be no justice in Southern states when race is a factor. These jurists probably watch Fox "News" -a right wing network dedicated to the advancement of racism and fascism.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Ford's pardon of Nixon was the beginning of it for me. I was 9 and, even at 9, I realized that a guilty person was getting off scot-free.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Then they didn't get to the heart (G H W Bush) of Iran-Contra. That nation has never been the same. The intell community has essentially been a criminal arm of the government since. That is just my take from my limited perspective.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Gregorian
(23,867 posts)Imagine how some of us felt when someone like Pete Wilson introduced the law "Smoke a joint- lose your license".
Some of us have been in this place a long long time. I have pretty crap words for this country in many ways. Not that bad stuff doesn't happen else where.
liberalhistorian
(20,809 posts)and the other guy/gal is non-white.