If it's not about Snowden, then why are there so many breathless posts about his asylum status?

[apples and oranges]

Who cares? Shouldn't we be focused on the NSA and not Snowden? You can't have it both ways!

[dkf]

1. The Government is refusing to release the docs authorizing the surveillance.

Without Snowden there is no more news. All we have is what he has.

[giftedgirl77]

8. This usually causes a confrontation

but a lot of the info that ppl are saying isn't being released is actually on the FISC website for anyone to review, including the summaries of what warrants have been executed in previous years.

https://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/#rept

This isn't the full website but it has a lot of the info everyone keeps saying isn't being disclosed.I'm on my phone rather than my computer so it makes searching a lot more difficult. While I admit it's not full disclosure it's at least something.

[VanillaRhapsody]

2. Ding ding ding! +1

hypocrisy!

[grasswire]

3. this has puzzled me too

The immature character of the speculation, the tee-heeing, the chatter, the obvious "gotcha" stuff going on., the pack mentality.

I truly have only seen this kind of posting on freerepublic during the Clinton years and on conservative cave (the site that only exists to badger DU).

[Recursion]

127. Pretty sure we don't mention that other site's name here (nt)

[LittleBlue]

4. It's become an international incident

Like it or not, Snowden is the Kardashian of international politics now.

The most important issue is definitely spying. But the drama in the Snowden saga is pretty amazing compared to normal international politics, like a Clancy novel.

[Number23]

68. Oh my God!! "Snowden is the Kardashian of international politics now"

[SidDithers]

137. Nailed it...nt

Sid

[think]

5. Russ Tice claims that the NSA wiretapped Obama, Supreme court justices, leaders of

congress, journalists, lawyers, & law firms, activists,....

Russ Tice is the whistle blower who exposed the illegal wiretapping under George Bush and he just made these new claims public a few weeks ago.

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/tag/russ-tice/

Can we talk about the claim by Russ Tice that the NSA illegally wiretapping Obama or should we discuss Snowden? This would appear to have some bearing on the NSA and their lawless activities should it not?

[VanillaRhapsody]

7. Where is the proof though? Talk is cheap and these guys know that..

[think]

12. Russ Tice blew the lid off the Bush administration illegal spying and that's your response?

yes, talk is certainly cheap....

[VanillaRhapsody]

13. Yes it is....but my talk isn't writing accusation checks that my ass cannot cover!

[think]

17. So you are basically calling Tice a liar?

[VanillaRhapsody]

18. I am saying to anyone making these strong accusations...

put up or shut up!

[think]

19. In other words yes, you think he is lying. thank you.

[VanillaRhapsody]

20. So I am supposed to just take his word for it?

seriously? Hmmmm seems to me YOU have an awfully low bar to accept what people "SAY" your country is doing without any proof. That's telling about you to me!

[think]

21. You immediately dimiss a whistle blower who went through hell to expose Bush

get a better script...

[VanillaRhapsody]

31. So to you the ends justify the means?

You don't require proof? This is NOT a Civil Court....this is not a lawsuit. THIS is the whole enchilada!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

36. You're either disingenuous, or you're devoid of logic

[VanillaRhapsody]

39. No requiring proof...IS logic!

I don't just accept things because someone said it. You have specific charges....prove them!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

49. Ok

My government lies. They do it a lot. My government spies on citizens, on foreigners. They do it a lot. Some people choose to believe this lying government in regard to spying. Others choose to believe Russell Tice and Edward Snowden.

It's absurd for you to say you require proof when you've hitched your wagon to a group of proven liars.

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. I haven't hitched my wagon to anybody....I don't even own a wagon as a matter of fact.

But I do like facts and evidence....to corroborate statements. And righty so.....so much of what Snowden has said has turned out to be exactly bullshit. Therefore I want proof!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

60. There was the thing about his salary...$120k vs $200k.

Tat was about it...he made 200k at a previous job, but 120 at BAH. If that's all you've got, you're in a pretty bad place.

[Th1onein]

65. It's called credibility. Tice has it. The government does not.

End of argument. You lose.

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. No....credibility is not the heaviest weighted in a court room....physical evidence is.

like everything else....don't just tell me....show me! And Snowden WENT to BAH specifically to get evidence.....still waiting...clock still ticking...

[Th1onein]

96. We are not in a courtroom, and even if we were......

Mr. Snowden already gave us the physical evidence--he showed us what we had never seen before--a secret FISA warrant.

The government has given us nothing. NOT EVEN DENIALS. Even Clapper admitted that he did not answer truthfully.

I think that it's long time that the jury came in and gave their verdict: GUILTY.

[VanillaRhapsody]

97. No he did not.....

[siligut]

121. Why does it have to be either or?

Both disingenuous and void of logic fit nicely.

[think]

51. Tice would love to testify AGAIN....

Perhaps this time not in his defense like he had to before for exposing the Bush illegal wiretapping which you so conveniently overlook.

Your disdain and dismissal of this whistle blower is fascinating.

Please explain why you think Russ Tice is lying.

Tice did America a great service be exposing illegal activities under Bush and yet without provocation you immediately throw him under the bus and discount his new claims before they can even be investigated.

.So please keep trashing Russ Tice the whistle blower who exposed illegal spying under Bush while remembering he's willing to testify before congress AGAIN .

[VanillaRhapsody]

77. I am not conveniently overlooking anything...

It's not disdain or dismissal....its Put up or Shut Up.

I know they are all doing it....the Chinese..the Soviets....and yes you can bet even Venezuela, and Bolivia are doing it to the fullest extend of their own technology......

I haven't trashed Tice at all. I just said a whistleblower has to do more than "say" stuff. I can say the stuff that Snowden has said. But if you want to be a whistleblower....then show me the proverbial money. Show us a document where a particular person was illegally spied upon. Just because something CAN be done....doesn't mean that it has happened. It also means that outside forces can do the same.

What country do you think is innocent?

[think]

78. Call it what you like. "Put or shut up" is an insult plain and simple.

So did Tice tell the truth in the Bush wiretapping and now lie about other aspects of the case or not?

Put up or shut up......

[VanillaRhapsody]

79. Did he have physical evidence of it?

I don't have physical evidence that he did or didn't...

YOU put up or shut up!

[think]

82. Demand evidence from a gagged whistle blower before any investigation

Nice.

He is willing to testify under oath in front of congress along with others. No that is not evidence but it is the solemn testimony of whistle blower who already exposed major illegal activities. He's put his life and career aside to expose these things. What part of that don't you comprehend?

and you an anonymous poster has the gall to demand he put or shut up before he can testify and his claims be investigated.

Good grief.....

[VanillaRhapsody]

85. Everyone KNOWS the capability exists....thats not news.

Has it specifically been done against someone? Show the proof of that.

You could say Rupert Murdoch was spying on individuals and used the GB police department. But it had to be proven....by individuals that it actually happened. See what I mean?

Because the capability exists...which is what these whistleblowers are saying...

[bobduca]

86. ah the old "everybody already knew this" canard

thanks for playing!

[VanillaRhapsody]

90. No that is NOT what I just said...

I said....THE very nature OF the Internet....IS the reason this exists...


Thank YOU for playing.

[think]

88. Yes, and patently dismiss the possiblity because Tice is what? I conspiracy nut?

He's the whistle blower who exposed Bush's illegal wiretapping in case you forgot that little tid bit.

So act like he's persona non grata and his testimony is irrelevant.

Igonore all the other whistle blowers like

Daniel Elsberg
William Binney
Thomas Drake
J. Kirk Wiebe
Sibel Edmonds
and many more!

Ignore 22 Dem senators who are demanding answers:

http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/bipartisan-group-of-26-senators-seek-answers-from-dni-clapper-on-bulk-data-collection-program

Just bury your head in the sand if you want. But telling a whistle blower like Tice to put up or shut up is pathetic...

[VanillaRhapsody]

91. Not burying my head in any sand...

I have been a web developer for 14 yrs. I am just telling you that THIS is what is happening....its HOW the Internet works.

The information STILL exists...even IF the U.S. govt unplugged from the Internet altogether. The technology exists and persists. We better start talking about THAT!

[think]

92. So now we've switched from needing proof to even if it's true it is futile to resist spying?

Law makers create laws. Right now we under very shitty laws written mostly under the Bush administration.

these shitty laws that make it a crime for a Senator to us when the NSA is found in violation of the law are corrupt, unethical, and un American.

Change these laws and we won't have private contractors run by ex cia officials and owned the Carlyle group making billions to spy on us.

We CAN do that.

Sure we'll never be completely free from total invasions of our privacy. but we can curtail who is and how much spying is done.....

[VanillaRhapsody]

94. No I haven't said that at all...

It's like saying because your car has a speedometer goes above 80 miles an hour....than obviously you MUST BE driving that fast.

[bobduca]

93. Permanent log retention is a policy... it can be reversed.

Plenty of systems are built without facilitating long-term user surveillance.

iMessage for instance has public key security that is only decrypted once the message transits Apple's system.

Tor Project can be used to help increase security while browsing.
https://www.torproject.org/

The systems on the internet do not specifically require permanent retention of user activities. This has all been added, mostly for developer and administration/maintenance purposes. However based on my experience once the log retention window is over, say a week, retaining logs is just burdensome to the private sector.

[VanillaRhapsody]

98. No because that data is valuable to them....the sell it to each other!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

99. Your rage aside, you don't have any evidence to support your beliefs

You have chosen to take known liars at their word that's not a very good idea.

[VanillaRhapsody]

100. Oh Now I am "raging"

Is that the step we are at now?

totally hilarious....still laughing...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

102. Your sunny demeanor aside, you don't have any proof to support your beliefs.

You've chosen to take known liars at their word. You've demanded proof, but you have no proof whatsoever for your claims. I question your judgment.

[VanillaRhapsody]

103. You would I guess that doesn't surprise me at all...

I would guess a degree in web development doesn't give me any proof at all for my contentions!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

106. Your HTML degree confers knowledge to you about when the NSA is lying?

Doesn't that just beat all? My 20 years as a network engineer doesn't seem to have given me special insight as to which of the NSA's statements are true and which are lies. I guess I should have gone to text editing school.

[VanillaRhapsody]

107. hahahahaha "HTML Degree"

hahahahahaha.....Oh yeah that's rich!

YOU know the technology exists....

[DisgustipatedinCA]

108. Front-end web design? Yes, I do acknowledge that it exists.

There must be a fuckload of people in Bangalore making $3/hr who have special insight into the NSA.

[VanillaRhapsody]

109. hahahahaha Still laughing...

did I say design?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

113. You sure didn't indicate you were on the DBA end of the equation.

[VanillaRhapsody]

115. SQL is near Universal.

[Mojorabbit]

134. Three quarters of this page

is a pissing match between you and other posters which is a shame as it makes it hard to follow the subject at hand.
Peace, Mojo

[Waiting For Everyman]

72. What would qualify as proof in this instance?

Second question, where is you proof that Tice is wrong?

[VanillaRhapsody]

80. You can't prove a negative....

[morningfog]

6. Simple answer is that the heavy-handed fail attempt two days ago

started another chapter. Because of the downing of Morales' plane, Snowden was granted asylum. Because of the plane incident, the US tipped their hand as to how badly they want him and how aggressively they are pursuing him.

Also, he has more to leak, but as per agreement with Russia, won't damage US while there. Asylum will open the door for more leaks.

[Whisp]

10. the 'downing' of Morales' plane? wtf.

[morningfog]

15. It was forced to land. It was downed.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

25. next logical step in this irrational primal scream. the plane was downed

all survivors are fine. truth was the first casualty.

[Tx4obama]

37. Good one. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

11. Do you really think that Snowden getting Asylum in any country in South America worries the CIA?

In fact going there probably just makes their job easier...

[morningfog]

14. What do you think the CIA will do to him?

[VanillaRhapsody]

16. Capture him if he throws himself to the floor as soon as they burst into the door to get him.

[morningfog]

24. And if he doesn't?

[VanillaRhapsody]

27. He cannot be that stupid.....He knows they are coming!

[morningfog]

29. I think you are suggesting that he could be killed by the CIA?

Do you have an opinion on the propriety of that?

[VanillaRhapsody]

30. It's up to Snowden....

and it won't be JUST CIA coming after him. He will have to worry about any and everyone he surrounds himself with.....going to South America is not going to be a safe proposition for that man.

[bobduca]

95. The good guys

I'm cheering for the cia right? just trying to get what team we are supposed to be cheering for.

[Major Hogwash]

34. It does make it easier. Much easier.

It's very hard for the U.S. to get in to Russia, whereas we have been involved in both countries of Venezuela and Nicaragua for over 100 years.

[pnwmom]

66. And the more he leaks about international spying, the farther he will cross the line

from whistleblower to traitor.

[flamingdem]

71. Great point. Until I read this I was thinking the USA wouldn't bother with a hit

But lines can be crossed.

They're pretty good at taking people out, except for Castro of course, 665 attempts I think..

[Romulus Quirinus]

135. We seem to have established a precedent for killing our own. nt

[Mojorabbit]

131. He has managed not to cross that line yet. nt

[Lasher]

9. Well we could be discussing Orly Taitz instead.

[winter is coming]

45. Damn you!

Now I'll have to run out to the all-night grocery and buy some bleach!

[Lasher]

116. Ha ha ha, I guess that was brutal of me.

I miss her antics in the news. I'm sure she's always up to something else, but I think the media just got tired of her.

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. TheFUCK we can't have it both ways...

It's about BOTH the NSA and Snowden, although for reasons that both converge and diverge at the same time.

See how easy that was?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

23. Because it implies there is still hope for a better world

And that more will follow to secure the right of freedom of speech, and privacy.

That resistance is NOT, futile!

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. there IS no privacy....there NEVER will be with an Internet! Period...people need to get that into

their heads...

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

32. So say the authoritarian's then why does every site have a privacy policy?

Why do we have privacy laws on the books?

Is it all just make believe, and that's why the totalitarians are so pissed at Snowden for pulling the curtains back?

Absolutely.

[VanillaRhapsody]

33. those laws were written before this new fangled invention called the Internet...

You cannot have an Internet AND privacy....sorry but that's a fact.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

35. Bullshit

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. No NOT Bullshit....sorry....but the Internet SAVES EVERYTHING!

Have you never used the WayBack Machine.....to find old old websites? The Internet is all about saving data! It is what it is!

[VanillaRhapsody]

41. In fact....I just googled your handle....

in 3 seconds I got this:

https://www.google.com/webhp?source=search_app#output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=usGovOwesUs3Trillion&oq=usGovOwesUs3Trillion&gs_l=hp.12...8438.8438.0.10193.1.1.0.0.0.0.89.89.1.1.0...0.0.0..1c.2.17.psy-ab.8MzBpNCQ91E&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.dmg&fp=6ca84d98d48f74bf&biw=1366&bih=635

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

47. What's my email address?

And you first reply to me is still BULLSHIT.

[VanillaRhapsody]

50. No its not....I am trying to prove to you that the Internet saves everything!

That's how it is...Me...not Snowden level hacker...just used Google and nothing more to find things connected to that name. If I used more sophisticated tools....I could find so very much more. That is how it is! Sorry but the Internet is not and never has been private.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

52. BULLSHIT

Please stop spreading it.

Thank you

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. Please stop denying the obvious....how do you think Google works?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

56. There is a BIG difference between PUBLIC and PRIVATE information

I know a LOT more about how internet technology works than you do, obviously.

[VanillaRhapsody]

58. Not on the Internet there is not!

Obviously you DON"T understand how it works.....How does Google work then?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

61. I refuse to discuss with an ignorant person who pretends to know what he does not

Get a different attitude and I may change my mind.

[VanillaRhapsody]

63. the basics of search engines for you....

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/internet/basics/search-engine.htm


and there are tools much more sophisticated. Database is a database...the Internet is loaded with them.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

40. No sense of civics or technology

You're dead wrong.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. Oh really? How does Google work?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

59. It ONLY indexes PUBLIC information

and it will not index public information you forbid it to.

[VanillaRhapsody]

101. the Internet indexes EVERYTHING!

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

104. whats my phone number?

whats my name?

whats my address?

where do I work?

...


That's called PRIVATE information, and NO you can NOT access it, without breaking a ton of laws already on the books.

[VanillaRhapsody]

105. YOU think that is private?

You think Sears doesn't have that information? You think Verizon doesnt have that information.

With the right tools...those could be easily obtained. That is not private...read the EULA!

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

110. You don't have it do you? Therefore it's ipso-facto PRIVATE, non-PUBLIC, Personal Information NPPI

And there are existing strict rules and regulations surrounding the handling of this personal information.

And if you get caught trying to hacking into computer systems to harvest it, guess what bright-eyes, your getting frog-marched off to prison.

A flesh wound you say?

[VanillaRhapsody]

111. IPSO FACTO.....using the right tools I COULD

and GUESS WHAT if you get caught eavesdropping ON someone, guess what not-so-bright eyes?....You get frog-marched off to prison.

Sorry but I would say YOU are the one with the flesh wound and the irony deficit!

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

112. and you would go to jail

which brings us full circle now doesn't it, we DO have PRIVACY LAWS on the books, and PRIVACY POLICIES on EVERY SINGLE WEB-SITE.

SO, apparently we DO, in fact, have online PRIVACY.

[treestar]

119. You are resorting to that already?

Your debate level is below 5th grader.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

123. What, Facts?

I try to keep it simple.

Do you want to argue some more that we do not have online privacy rights, too?

[sibelian]

69. Well, actually, there is.

It's not as difficult to keep your internet activity out of sight as you think.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

89. And here is a google link that shows how easy it is

http://bit.ly/11pKnFY

Works for most modern browsers, too

[KittyWampus]

26. delete.

[Zorra]

42. If you haven't figured this out by now, trying to explain it to you would be

a total waste of my time.

Good luck and best wishes to you.

[MNBrewer]

43. It's about our Surveillance/Police State, that wants to crush him

so our joy at his perhaps escaping that unjust fate is what you're misinterpreting.

[arely staircase]

44. I started a thread about how we should start rectifying this by repealing the Patriot Act

it sunk like a stone, but not before I was told it was too early to talk about solutions since the "scandal was still unfolding."

quite telling

[sibelian]

70. Well, as a dyed in the wool "it's not about snowden" type

*I* appreciated your thread very much, arely. I remember responding.

[msanthrope]

87. Ratfucking doesn't focus on solutions...it creates discontent so voter turnout is lower.

Focusing on getting a responsible Congress in office would require discussion of the solutions.

[treestar]

120. Or try discussing the FISA

It has been law since the 1970s. Yet you'd think it had just been discovered. And of course we are not allowed to learn more about it before condemning it all or we are "authoritarians." Try to even discuss facts about it, whether good or bad, and they immediately resort to name calling. I've been told I "deserve" bad things to happen to me for not cheering Snowden on. They really just prefer to indulge in rage and look for some excuse, no matter how slim, for doing so.

[Mojorabbit]

132. This is a

disingenuous post. We have just found out that the govt has stretched the interpretation of the laws but we don't know just how much they have stretched because they will not tell us. That is much different than what we knew before. This and more has been posted a bajillion times so the canard of "this is nothing new" is baloney and tiresome. Truly it is.

[treestar]

136. No yours is

Where in your post do you discuss FISA at all? You make the same conclusions over and over, without learning anything new.

[Mojorabbit]

138. Look upthread. nt

[allin99]

46. there are a number of parts to the whole thing now...

the first was nsa, and the surveillance. not about snowden, even though at that time some choice to make it about him.

then there's a person who is releasing secrets related our spying on several countries, the u.s trying to stop him, countries taking sides over him. that part is the snowden drama.

[ZombieHorde]

48. Because different people have different viewpoints.

There are more than two "factions" in play here.

[CakeGrrl]

57. Because for all the assertions that

people only hate Snowden because he makes the Obama administration look bad, one could easily advance the other side of that: Snowden represents for some the next best opportunity to make the Obama administration look bad.

It comes through in some of the comments when the arguments go on long enough: Someone is pissed about their belief that POTUS pushed Chained CPI; someone is glad that Hillary got out in time (lingering anger over the primaries); someone rants anew about "centrists" and "Third Way Democrats"; and so on.

Every potential incident that arises just pushes the rewind button. The same old "Sycophants can't handle the truth", "They don't want Dear Leader embarrassed" bullshit gets kicked up again and again.

Groundhog day.

[Cleita]

62. They are tied together.

Don't you care why the NSA want to hunt him down and kill him? Kill, you say? Yes, that is the end game. Yes, let's really poke into the NSA like they have poked into us.

[apples and oranges]

124. Just in case you were serious, if they wanted to kill him

they would have done that long ago. Easily.

[Cleita]

125. Your post that they can kill at will easily is really disturbing.

This country has become more mafia than democracy if what you say is true.

[apples and oranges]

128. You're just now noticing that the USA has the most powerful military and intelligence

program in the world?

"Has become?" Which rock have you been hiding under?

[TheMadMonk]

64. Why do so many: straddle the fence, or believe Zimmerman shoud be given the benefit of the doubt;

Insist there's a hidden back story behind every instance of police brutality.

Because, they have no answer to the main story, so they go hammer and tongs at the peripheral, in the hope of diverting as much attention as possible from that which they are unable to answer.

[MichaelMcGuire]

73. Its because what he brought into focus is undefendable.

By anyone.

[sibelian]

74. Dunno. Who's posting them?

Not I...

[Waiting For Everyman]

75. Most of those threads were by the Snowden haters.

(having to physically click through the "trash thread" sequence that many times caused me to notice)

I wondered too, why they were so interested in his welfare. But they seem a lot less interested now that asylum has been offered. Apparently the gloating about statements that he has nowhere to go, and no one will take him, isn't nearly so much fun for the haters as it was a few days ago.

Goulishness is so unattractive -- especial for so-called liberals.

But yes, you're right. The focus should be about the NSA and not Snowden.

[graham4anything]

76. OMG, it just dawned on me (sarcasm to lighten up the mood)-

SECRET AGENT MAN, the tv show (in the UK it was known as Danger Man was a spy.

Secret Agent Man.

I never knew that Drake was a spy.

(And Drake of course was #6 in the Prisoner, same character, same Actor (Patrick McGoohan, though for ownership sake
I think Pat always had denied they were connected (contractual reasons)

But after all #6 was actually #1 (see last episode).
(what do you want...INFORMATION)
I am not a number, I am a freeman.

But I never knew #6 was a spy.

Neither was Maxwell Smart.
Neither did I know Ian Fleming had written James Bond as a SPY.


I gotta dig out the old VHS tapes and see.
that would be telling.

this is

be seeing you.

(I always loved these guys-
but I never knew either one of them was (AGHAST a spy)

[img][/img]
btw, I miss WIlliam Gaines, been 21 years now, just last month.

[flamingdem]

117. I love spy vs. spy!! Grew up on Mad Magazine and they were faves

And Secret Agent Man, the Avengers and of course Get Smart. I have a theory that I'm enthralled with the Snowden drama because it's the closest we'll get to a real life Man from Uncle, with Putin as the head of Kaos.

Had to hear this while catching up on the latest spy v spy news:

[cali]

81. There aren't, hon. but good on you for making that up

the snowden threads are posted mostly by YOU guys. one poster has 120+ Snowden threads. There is one long thread on Venezuela offering him asylum.

[sibelian]

84. 120+...

Still going strong, then is she? Ff. Of coruse she is, why do I even ask...

[bobduca]

83. The PRO-SNOWDEN faction meets and decides headlines

backwards ass bog logic

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. I have not seen them

Perhaps I have ignored the right people on your side hon?

[treestar]

118. Ding ding winner!

It's pure projection. The ones who made it about Snowden were those who declared him a hero on Day 1 and cheer him on and anyone who thumbs their nose at supposedly their own country!

[backscatter712]

122. Snowden's become a symbol of resistance to the authoritarian surveillance state. I say roll with it.

Because the Snowden story's been kept alive, the knowledge of NSA's violations of our rights is also kept alive in the consciousness of the American public.

Snowden's become a symbol, so let him be that symbol. I say roll with it.

Because Snowden is a fucking hero. It took a lot of guts to defy the NSA and National Security Omerta, and expose the criminal bullshit that Obama damned well should have ended by now. His story's fucking compelling, knowledge of the NSA's crimes is joined to him at the hip. People can't shut up about Snowden, and you can tell by how desperate the demonizers are in their constant spamming.

Just make sure that when people talk about Snowden, you bring up the NSA.

And extend your righteous middle finger to the McCarthyist demonizing shit-flingers. They showed their true character by their non-stop weeks of demonization. They're true subhuman slime. Nobody worthy of my respect would engage in this witch-hunt.

[99Forever]

126. Well a&o...

... unlike most authoritarian bootlickers, those of us that won't roll over and show belly to the 1%, can walk and chew gum at the very same time. Sorry you have yet to reach that skill level.

[apples and oranges]

129. That's so juvenile

Is that all you have? I'm authoritarian because I'm tired of all the Snowden posts?

[longship]

130. This NSA case is Snowden's case.

One cannot separate them no matter what.

Much of what he has leaked isn't exactly new. We've known about much of it back during Bush II as was posted here on DU at the time. We railed about it then just as we're railing about it now.

Didn't like it then. Don't like it now.

But Snowden has pulled some real boners. And Greenwald is playing the Prima Donna with Assange competing.

One cannot extricate this affair from the people surrounding it, no matter what one wants. People are flapping their gums about Snowden, Greenwald, and Assange because the issue is all about those people.

The issues aren't new. It's only the narrative and the framing that has changed.

That's why DU is boiling over, not because the NSA dares to spy, but that it dares do so under a Democratic President. People feel betrayed. But many of us could have pointed out that the Patriot Act was renewed and signed into law by PBO well before Snowden made his Hong Kong run.

Why did DUers withhold their collective outrage until now? (Honestly , some did not.)

Lots of questions remain unanswered. I have made no public judgements here other than facts as presented. I reserve my position on Snowden, although I find him to be a troubling person. Some of this just doesn't make any sense. I am increasingly becoming aware that I may have to become used to not knowing what's what.

Regardless, I will remain tuned in because it's compelling real life drama. Who needs fiction?

[Romulus Quirinus]

133. He's a seperate issue, but I still care about him as a person. nt