Do you consider yourself a Democrat first or an American first?

[kentuck]

Or do you think they are one and the same? There's really no difference?

And if there was a difference, which would you choose? Would you choose to be a Democrat or would you choose to be an American?

Bonus question:

Do you remember Jane Fonda and what is your opinion of her?

[shenmue]

1. Not sure of your point

What do these things have to do with one another?

The questions seem rather vague.

[hrmjustin]

2. I loved her in 9 to 5!

I am proud to be both equally!

[bluestate10]

3. False choice, Kentuck. People that are democrats accept that they are americans at

the same time as being democrats. To attempt to separate the two as a chicken or egg type choice is a bit unreal.

[kentuck]

4. But are they really the same?

Would a true American be so hasty to give up their 4th Amendment rights? I think not.

[Moonwalk]

24. Americans who saw themselves as Americans owned slaves...

..and allowed slavery to continue, taking away the rights of Americans (born here) without a second thought. They took away the rights of Native Americans as well, without a second thought. Would you say that George Washington, et al were not Americans? Or didn't think of themselves first and foremost as Americans?

You're creating not only a false dichotomy, but you're also working from a false premise. We all have to AGREE that we're giving up our 4th Amendment rights if don't object to what NSA is doing FIRST. Then we all have to AGREE that no one who says they're an American first would give up the 4th Amendment--hard to prove given how many Americans, in the past, were willing to deny those rights to Americans of color, native Americans or women.

Once we all agree to on those two, THEN you can say that a true American wouldn't do this.

But you haven't proved those two true as yet, so your thesis is based on a false premise. Which means you can't win the argument by bullying us into saying "we're Americans" and then go "gotcha! you have to agree with me on NSA!"

Sorry your trap didn't work. It was full of holes and waaaay obvious.

[treestar]

91. That is your exaggerated opinion

which is not taken for granted by others.

Most Americans don't try as hard as they can be to be seen as victims. Most respect the judiciary's interpretations of the law. No one is giving up any rights. That's a straw man you invented, thinking it would allow you to bully others.

[HappyMe]

114. So you just started the OP

so you could run around telling people that they are wrong? How very free speechy of you.

[kentuck]

115. Here's a bucket of water...

Stick your head in it. Nobody is preventing you from free speech. I asked a question and gave my opinion. If you disagree, you disagree.

[HappyMe]

116. Bless your heart,

and your bucket of water too.

[kentuck]

117. Well, thank you.

You really should put that fire out.

[LisaLynne]

5. Right, if you're not an American, then you can't be a Democrat ...

However, you can be an American but not a Democrat. And you can certainly be American AND a Democrat ... wait, what was the question?

[TheMadMonk]

108. And you stepped straight into a couple of classic syllogystic errors.

NOT ALL DEMOCRATS ARE AMERICANS!

Nor does one have to be a democrat to use the rules of democracy to one's own advantage.

[kentauros]

6. I consider myself a Native Terran first!

[immoderate]

7. Neither!

There are plenty of reasons to dissociate from both.

Fonda OK. Never my favorite actress though.

--imm

[NRaleighLiberal]

8. I consider myself a human being with principles...those principles are best met by various

liberal/progressive principles. In general, the Democratic Party (on paper) reflects those best.

Time has shifted things, and the Democratic Party has moved away from my principles. I don't think that time has shifted my principles; if anything, I've moved more to the left. This increases the distance.

Where we are born is serendipity. I feel fortunate to be an American, but don't consider my origin with pride. It is what it is. All countries do things that are admirable, and horrible.

Jane Fonda - my opinion of her is complex.

[cheapdate]

29. What he said -- NRaleighLiberal.

[NRaleighLiberal]

30. much appreciated!

[HooptieWagon]

44. +1

[think]

102. nailed it

[fujiyama]

119. Very well stated

We don't control our genetics, choose our parents, or the place of our birth. Those of us born where we are, by the chance of life could just as easily have been born in a refugee camp in another country half way across the world.

I am human first. And my compassion and empathy for my fellow humans are due to that simple fact.

My ethnicity, race, and nationality follow. My party identification is much farther down the line in terms of my self identification.

[Link Speed]

9. I am a Human Being

I am the guy who lives in my house.

On my street.

In my little town.

It is quite simple, really.

[Gravitycollapse]

10. I'm a human being, a conscious entity and a child of nature, first and foremost.

Everything else is secondary. Labels like American or Democrat matter only insofar that they help me be a better human being, conscious entity and child of nature.

[NoOneMan]

11. Human

Always. Thats pretty much all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. Republicans think that government is the problem.

I don't.

I think that bad government is a problem that is cured by better government. I think that this is an american point of view.

[NightWatcher]

13. Country of residence or member of a political party

I would think you'd need to reside in the country first before you could join a political party.

And Barbarella was hot.

[quinnox]

14. I'm an American first and foremost

And I think of myself as a patriot. But not a slavish - "My country can do no wrong" patriotism. More of I think this country has done some great and remarkable things, and it can do many more, if it goes on the right path. I think recognizing the weaknesses and faults of your country, and wanting to see them improved, is part of being patriotic.

[cloudbase]

15. I remember Jane Fonda.

At least she went to Vietnam, unlike Dan Quayle, Dick Cheney, Bill Clinton, and a few others.

[premium]

49. Yeah,

and allowed herself to be photographed by the NVA sitting on an AA gun looking through the sightsl
But, yeah, at least she went to Vietnam, for the NVA.

Sorry, you're bringing up some very bitter feelings in me.

[Hissyspit]

80. Well, maybe you shouldn't be bitter about her.

Here's the true story:

http://janefonda.com/the-truth-about-my-trip-to-hanoi

- snip -

It wasn’t until I began to meet American servicemen who had been in Vietnam and had come to Paris as resisters that I realized I needed to learn more. I took every chance I could to meet with U.S. soldiers. I talked with them and read the books they gave me about the war. I decided I needed to return to my country and join with them—active duty soldiers and Vietnam Veterans in particular—to try and end the war. I drove around the country visiting military bases, spending time in the G.I. Coffee houses that had sprung up outside many bases –places where G.I.s could gather. I met with Army psychiatrists who were concerned about the type of training our men were receiving…quite different, they said, from the trainings during WWII and Korea. The doctors felt this training was having a damaging effect on the psyches of the young men, effects they might not recover from. I raised money and hired a former Green Beret, Donald Duncan, to open and run the G.I. Office in Washington D.C. to try and get legal and congressional help for soldiers who were being denied their rights under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. I talked for hours with U.S. pilots about their training, and what they were told about Vietnam. I met with the wives of servicemen. I visited V.A. hospitals. Later in 1978, wanting to share with other Americans some of what I had learned about the experiences of returning soldiers and their families, I made the movie Coming Home. I was the one who would be asked to speak at large anti-war rallies to tell people that the men in uniform were not the enemy, that they did not start the war, that they were, in growing numbers our allies. I knew as much about military law as any layperson. I knew more than most civilians about the realities on the ground for men in combat. I lived and breathed this stuff for two years before I went to North Vietnam. I cared deeply for the men and boys who had been put in harms way. I wanted to stop the killing and bring our servicemen home. I was infuriated as I learned just how much our soldiers were being lied to about why we were fighting in Vietnam and I was anguished each time I would be with a young man who was traumatized by his experiences. Some boys shook constantly and were unable to speak above a whisper.

It is unconscionable that extremist groups circulate letters which accuse me of horrific things, saying that I am a traitor, that POWs in Hanoi were tied up and in chains and marched passed me while I spat at them and called them ‘baby killers. These letters also say that when the POWs were brought into the room for a meeting I had with them, we shook hands and they passed me tiny slips of paper on which they had written their social security numbers. Supposedly, this was so that I could bring back proof to the U.S. military that they were alive. The story goes on to say that I handed these slips of paper over to the North Vietnamese guards and, as a result, at least one of the men was tortured to death. That these stories could be given credence shows how little people know of the realities in North Vietnam prisons at the time. The U.S. government and the POW families didn’t need me to tell them who the prisoners were. They had all their names. Moreover, according to even the most hardcore senior officers, torture stopped late in 1969, two and a half years before I got there. And, most importantly, I would never say such things to our servicemen, whom I respect, whether or not I agree with the mission they have been sent to perform, which is not of their choosing.

- snip -

But these lies have circulated for almost forty years, continually reopening the wound of the Vietnam War and causing pain to families of American servicemen. The lies distort the truth of why I went to North Vietnam and they perpetuate the myth that being anti-war means being anti-soldier.

Little known is the fact that almost 300 Americans—journalists, diplomats, peace activists, professors, religious leaders and Vietnam Veterans themselves—had been traveling to North Vietnam over a number of years in an effort to try and find ways to end the war (By the way, those trips generated little if any media attention.) I brought with me to Hanoi a thick package of letters from families of POWs. Since 1969, mail for the POWs had been brought in and out of North Vietnam every month by American visitors. The Committee of Liaison With Families coordinated this effort. I took the letters to the POWs and brought a packet of letters from them back to their families.

The Photo of Me on the Gun Site.

There is one thing that happened while in North Vietnam that I will regret to my dying day— I allowed myself to be photographed on a Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun. I want to, once again, explain how that came about. I have talked about this numerous times on national television and in my memoirs, My Life So Far, but clearly, it needs to be repeated.

MUCH MORE AT LINK

[premium]

87. I'm sorry,

I should have been more clear, when I say bitter feelings, I meant bitter feelings about the war and the effects on those of us who served there and on our nation.
I've gotten over my hatred of Jane Fonda a long time ago, now I just don't care what she thinks or does.
I appreciate her apology to us, but it should have been done long before she did it.
I commend her for trying to bring an end to the war, but she should have and did know what kind of reaction she would get, she's an intelligent woman, she damn well knew that the North was going to use that photo as propaganda and she went ahead and did it.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Th1onein]

16. I am a Citizen of the World first; an American second, and a Democrat third.

[HardTimes99]

63. Harkens to Eugene Debs in 1915:

"I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs

[Th1onein]

72. Debs is one of my heroes. So I take that as a compliment, HardTimes99!

Thank you!

[HardTimes99]

73. It was definitely intended as such. My compliments! - nt

[kentuck]

17. "I'm a farmer..."

#at=15

[MrSlayer]

18. I think of myself as a Metalhead first, a pelican second and a blanket third.

After that I vary from a lemon to a Maserati.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. My country is the world, and my religion is to do good. - Thomas Paine

I remember Jane Fonda fondly. Brave lady.

[madinmaryland]

20. Members of the Democratic Party ARE Americans. So what exactly is your point.

So there is nothing to choose. eom

[bigwillq]

21. Human being

I would choose to be human, an individual with my own beliefs and values, over being a Democrat or American or whatever.


I remember Jane Fonda and I like her. I think she's a good actress and has been a good advocate for the causes she's passionate about.

[DevonRex]

22. Hmm. Obama's been saying we're all Americans. He's everybody's president, etc,

and he gets ridiculed. Another thing, seems to me that people who put America first wouldn't be cheering on somebody giving America's secrets to Russia and China and who knows what other countries.

Or cheering China and Russia and Cuba and Venezuela and Ecuador for not cooperating with America. Just sayin'

[emulatorloo]

23. American. Now stop trying to be divisive.

You are better than this.

[Raine]

25. NEITHER ... I consider myself "Raine" above all else. If I had to choose

I wouldn't, I'm a human being not a label.

[Fire Walk With Me]

26. Nice framing. Do you also remember "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists"?

[former9thward]

28. I consider myself a resident of the earth first.

Then an American citizen. After that various sub-divisions kick in. Democrat, Arizonian, etc. I do not have much respect for parties in the U.S. because they have no principles. They only exist to get elected and change their views depending on geography and demographics of where they are at. (As an example Democrats who win in AZ have different 'principles' than Democrats who win on the CA coast). Republicans the same. Parties in Europe seem to stand for something even if it means they won't be elected at the next election day.

Although I was opposed to the Vietnam war and worked actively against it I thought Fonda's trip to N. Vietnam was terrible. She had her picture taken sitting on an anti-aircraft gun looking to shoot down Americans. I could never look at her again without thinking about that.

[aristocles]

31. I agree with George Berkeley. I am me. You are all figments of my fertile imagination.

Jane Fonda was a great woman: as Barbarella.

[DonCoquixote]

32. a human being first

just the GOP act less human.

[GeorgeGist]

33. I find your question offensive ...

to my intelligence.

[kentuck]

36. Sorry.

I didn't mean to offend. It is a simple question. It was meant for a small bit of self-analysis. Just what do we stand for? It wasn't meant for Barbara Bush.

[sibelian]

111. .. and she was extra funny in Barbarella.

Particularly in the pleasure machine which was very funny.

[mzteris]

34. synonymous

imo . . . these days, anyways. MOST - thought not ALL - Republicans don't seem very "American" to me anymore. (And I say that with a son-in-law who is a Republican. Socially very liberal (my daughter's father is gay and her brother is African American), - he's fiscally Republican. But a very nice guy. Very very honest and loyal to my daughter, so I deal with the Republican issue. He and my daughter DO NOT talk politics. Ever. They have a deal, he doesn't watch Fox when she's there, and she doesn't watch CNN or MSNBC. lol) I don't like his politics, but i'd trust him with my life. Hell, I trust him with my daughter! and my soon to be first granddaughter! double . . .

Jane Fonda. When she was Barbarella. Hanoi Jane. Ted Turner's wife. Or her workout video? I assume you mean Hanoi Jane.

At the time I was a teen under the influence of "Southern Democrats" - states righters who voted for Dem governors and Republican Presidents. I was very anti-war. But I was a "if you're in a freaking war then get it over with as soon as possible however you can" mindset at the time. I hated her back then. I understand the nuance - the reason - now. Do I agree? To be honest, I don't remember all of the details of the who the what the where the why. Putting our soldiers in harms way? Probably not cool if that was the case, I don't know. Then again, I'm pretty anti-military myself these days. I mean, I respect some aspect of the military, but to sign up to go kill people? Not so much. (Spoken as the daughter and niece of WWII marines (WWII was different, imo), an ex-navy-wife (& ex-navy daughterinlaw), and an ex-marine wife. My brother retired as a full Colonel from the Air Force and served at the Pentagon. My cousin died in Nam. His brothers served in Germany and Korea respectively. So - uh - yeah, it's not like I don't know what military life is or is for. )


I'm even MORE anti-war now. Anti death penalty. Anti-murder. But . . . I'm still of the opinion - no matter how hard I try to be a true pacifist - if someone is looking to harm my kids, they're fair f'ing game. I will take you down, out, whatever i have to do. (so sue me. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it. I'm a mom first. Everything else comes after.)

[rrneck]

35. American. nt

[maxrandb]

37. I am an American first

and a Democrat second, because the Republican Party is blatantly and hopelessly "Anti-American"

and I was very young during he Vietnam War, but did quite a bit of research and study. I'm the kind of guy who was riveted to the TV watching the Watergate Hearings at about age 9.

I think Jane Fonda made a critical mistake in allowing herself to be filmed with folks that were trying to kill American soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines.

While I understand and agree with the protesters against the Vietnam War, I honestly believe that her being filmed with the Vietcong and an anti-air battery, did long-term and irreparable harm to the Progressive/Liberal movement.

You might even be able to argue that the image of the protesters was used over and over again by the Republicans, and it may have led to the election of Ray-Gun...in my opinion, the worst fucking President of this century.

[premium]

51. Just a slight correction,

It wasn't the VC she was filmed with, it was the NVA.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I think you know.

I actually had to earn it, country before party.

Jane, it's complicated.

[Marrah_G]

39. I'm a Bostonian, a New Englander, an American and a Socialist. n/t

[On the Road]

40. I am an American before I am a Democrat

Hope that answered your question. While it's not unusual, a lot of folks apparently have difficulty dealing with the question.

One poster last year speculated about what would happen under an imagined military takeover by Canada, and offered the perspective that she would assist the Canadians in taking over the government to make it better. Under those circumstances, I would be right there next to the rednecks fighting to keep the US independent.

Not that that scenario is likely to happen, but it does clarify your question IMO.

[LWolf]

41. Neither.

If I have to rank my being, both are far down the list.

I consider myself:

1. A living being on the planet.
2. A human being.
3. An evolving being.
4. A thinking being
5. A principled being
6. A woman
7. A mother
8. A grandmother
9. A friend
10. A teacher
11. An environmentalist
12. An introvert
13. One of those few of the working poor class that pulled herself up by those bootstraps, hit the class ceiling repeatedly, and ended up exhausted, divorced, in poor health, and regressing economically.
14. Leftist and leaning socialist, at least compared to most in the U.S..
15. A gardener, even though I don't do much any more.
16. A bibliophile
17. An idealist, and therefore also
18. A cynic, having spent decades having those ideals trampled by reality.

I could go on and on. Somewhere much further down the list, Democrat would appear. I work within this political group (most of the time) because that's the way the system is structured; the party is as relevant as its work. "American" would probably be last. It's not something I really identify. I'm a citizen because I was born here. I'm not a nationalist, I'm not a patriot, and while I appreciate some things about this nation, I don't identify myself according to a political boundary. If anything, I identify with physical/geographical regions, when it comes to place.

Bonus question: I remember Jane Fonda. I did not have the extreme emotional response to her political activities that many did, because I was just a kid. Overall, I have a vaguely neutral to positive opinion of her. I have a negative opinion of those who "hate" her, because I equate them with warmongers and nationalists.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. I am a human of planet earth first.

I find your questions peculiar, but not unexpected in this nation state at this point in its odd history.

Jane Fonda was the daughter of an elite Hollywood family who put wealth and privilege on the line for her beliefs. The Vietnam War, more specifically our invasion of Vietnam for the sole purpose of denying the Vietnamese people their natural right of self determination, was an abomination and a war crime. In scope it exceeded the war crime of the 2003 invasion of Iraq by an order of magnitude. Active opposition to both of these wars was the only proper moral choice.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. being a democrat isnt a significant part of my identity. being a liberal/progressive is

[rustydog]

45. I am an American first duh!

There is definitely a difference. if you are born in America, you are an American. the other choice is what political leaning do you CHOOSE?

I remember Jane Fonda. She is a good gifted actress who was outspoken on the Vietnam war and caught shit for it.

What did I win?

[premium]

46. I consider myself an American progressive

and my opinion of Jane Fonda?
She was, IMHO, back then, nothing more than a fucking traitor, I fought in Vietnam and that picture of her sitting in the seat of an AA gun looking through the gunsight boiled my blood then, but, in the intervening years, I've mellowed and now I just don't give a shit about her or what she does.
I know she apologized to us, but I just don't care either way,

?itok=AW0gJwCH

[ZombieHorde]

50. They weren't a threat to the people in the US.

The Vietnam war was an absurdity.

[premium]

53. I know that

I didn't say different, what I said was that she was willingly photographed by the NVA sitting on an AA gun, looking through the sights saying she wished she had an American plane in her sights.
You think that was ok?

?itok=AW0gJwCH

[ZombieHorde]

67. If I was in the war, I would have likely developed

an "us versus them" mentality. I probably would have felt as you did a few decades ago.

...looking through the sights saying she wished she had an American plane in her sights. You think that was ok?

I think the absurdity of the situation made everyone a little nuts. I give everyone a pass. I have heard stories of soldiers killing innocent people, and I wonder what I would have done if I was surrounded by death and madness day after day. I won't say what she or anyone else did was "ok," but I don't judge it.

I do judge the politicians who supported the Vietnam war harshly though.

[premium]

70. I hated her intensly for years,

until I realized that she wasn't worth the effort in hating, now, I just don't care what she thinks or does.
I will give her credit for apologizing to us a few years ago, but she should have done it along time ago.

Sorry for getting so emotional about it, I still have bitter feelings for what that war cost this nation, but I am proud of my service to the country, unlike Cheney, Bush, Nugent, Romney, etc.

[ZombieHorde]

47. "American" and "Democrat" are not my favorite forms of tribalism. nt

[4bucksagallon]

48. I'll answer the second since I consider the first question to be dumb.

Jane Fonda had more guts more than 90% of the Republicans during the Vietnam war. She at least can claim she set foot on Vietnamese soil, albeit it was North Vietnam. How may Republicans from that era can even claim they went to Nam at all? I am a member of VVAW and have been for a long time. I am not into hero worship but someone asked in a poll who was more heroic Snowden or Wendy Davis. I said neither, and the same is true here although I admire Jane.

[premium]

57. So her willingly allowing the NVA

to photograph her sitting on an AA gun, looking through the sights saying that she wished she had an American plane in her sights is ok with you?

And you have no clue what the ration of Dems to Repubs was serving in Vietnam, it was probably pretty even, when I went to Vietnam in 68, I was a repub, when I got home in 69, I switched my party affiliation to Dem., which is what happened to a lot of us.

[4bucksagallon]

69. Sorry didn't see you there you must have been REMF.

I was there in 69 and 70 Marine infantry, and at that time people were stirred up about it but that was the job of the Stars and Stripes to get soldiers pissed off. My infantry platoon which was the one I was intimately involved in to the point of considering them family, were mostly Dem"s from middle class and lower class neighborhoods, in our little bubble of a platoon the only ones that I would consider Repub's were....... well they weren't out with us they were the REMF guys that we referred to as juicers, lifers, REMF's, and a few other choice names. We also knew that they were stealing our allotment of beer/soda and other rations and selling them on the black market for their own profit. Sound familiar it's a Republican trait. That isn't all they sold to the Commies on the black market either we had our own frags, claymores and weapons used against us. So don't preach to me about I don't understand, I understand only too well. Were you in the boonies or in the rear? Makes a big difference on perspective. As to Jane on a AA gun, we were bombing the dikes, did you think they wouldn't try to shoot down our planes? Remember we were the invaders, or have you forgotten that.

[premium]

71. Nice insult.

REMF? Nope, I was right there in the shit also. I was with the 25th ID, out in the boonies fighting to survive to make it back to the world.
The day of my DEROS, I stepped on that that big ass Freedom Bird, the best day of my young life, couldn't di di out of there fast enough.

What the NVA were doing, they were doing it to protect their country, what was Jane's excuse?

[4bucksagallon]

79. So fine why did you feel it necessary to respond to my opinion then?

We can disagree about Jane she did not do any damage to me, or my men. You never did respond to my assertion that the lifers (Republicans) in the rear were stealing our supplies and selling them to the enemy for profit at the expense of American lives. To me that is a much bigger offense than anything Jane Fonda did or did not do. You also obviously did not serve with the people I did so your experience may differ. The only times I met people in favor of the war was when I went back to the rear areas. Them that had a roof over their heads at night and were fighting a sunup to sundown war, if they fought at all.
On one of your posts you said that Jane said she "wished she had an American plane in her sights", I did not respond to that but since you found it obligatory to respond to me, give me a link to that if you have it since you seem to know it so well. The only place I can find that is on blogs, RWNJ/CT websites. I would like to read it, if you have it. Just a request, if you have it handy.

[premium]

82. Everyone in the fucking rear was stealing our supplies

and selling them or using them for personal use, repub and dem alike. Who really gave a shit back then what the pol. party was?
I never once asked what someone's party affiliation was, the few times we were in the rear anyways, did you?

[4bucksagallon]

88. Still curious where you got that quote.

You seem to know it verbatim. No never had to ask what ones political party or beliefs were because a long conversations with my soldiers would bring out where they stood. That's not to say some Dem's weren't for the war, but by far it was the guys with something to gain, the ones in the rear that were pro-war. Hell some of them cowardly lifer Republicans even came out and spent a couple of days and nights with us hoping to get shot at so they could claim a ribbon, of course they did that when we were on big op's so there was that safety in numbers thing going for them. Republicans by a majority avoided service in Vietnam I will keep repeating this until I die because they are yellow bellied cowards, afflicted with the Cheney Gene. You have said nothing to change my original opinion. Now post a link to the quote please, and if you can't just admit it was RW BS, I am fine with that too.

[premium]

93. I'll have to find it,

but I did find this little gem.

During her trip, Fonda made ten radio broadcasts in which she denounced American political and military leaders as "war criminals". Fonda has defended her decision to travel to North Vietnam and her radio broadcasts.[36][37] Also during the course of her visit, Fonda visited American prisoners of war (POWs), and brought back messages from them to their families. When cases of torture began to emerge among POWs returning to the United States, Fonda called the returning POWs "hypocrites and liars". She added, "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed."[38] Later, on the subject of torture used during the Vietnam War, Fonda told The New York Times in 1973, "I'm quite sure that there were incidents of torture ... but the pilots who were saying it was the policy of the Vietnamese and that it was systematic, I believe that's a lie."[39] Fonda said the POWs were "military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to the law".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Fonda#.22Hanoi_Jane.22_controversy

[4bucksagallon]

94. Wiki... well would you like me to edit it so your quote appears there n/t

[premium]

96. Would you accept it from her own book.

I'll post the what she said and why she said it.

http://janefonda.com/the-truth-about-my-trip-to-hanoi/

In my anger at the torture story that was being allowed to spread, at how the entire situation was being manipulated, I made a mistake I deeply regret. I said that the POWs claiming torture were liars, hypocrites, and pawns.

I said, “I’m quite sure that there were incidents of torture…but the pilots who are saying it was the policy of the Vietnamese and that it was systematic, I believe that’s a lie.”[8]

What I didn’t know at the time was that although there had been no torture after 1969, before then there had been systematic torture of some POWS. One of the more hawkish of them, James Stockdale, wrote in his book, In Love and War, that no more than ten percent of the pilots received at least ninety percent of the punishment.[9] John Hubbell, in P.O.W.: A Definitive History of the American Prisoner-of-War Experience in Vietnam, agreed, and affirmed the fact that torture stopped in 1969.[10]

When the POWs came home, some who had been there longest told the press how they clogged up prison toilets and sewers, refused to come when ordered, or follow prison rules. One of the most famous, Jeremiah Denton, said, “We forced them [the guards] to be brutal to us.”[11] I relay this not to minimize the hardships that the POWs endured, nor to excuse it– but to attempt belatedly to restore a greater depth of insight into the entire POW experience with their captors.

Despite the context it was said in, she did say it, so wiki did get it right.
On the other quote, I can't find any reputable source, so until one emerges, I'll concede that it may just be a piece of propaganda put out by the RW. I believed it because of my intense hatred of her at the time.

[4bucksagallon]

98. Thanks I have argued this before with Republicans........

They could not point me to many of their outlandish claims. Just trying to get at the straight poop. If it was out there for real I believe I would have seen it. Unfortunately the Republican RW has used her to drum up there brand of lunacy when in fact their cowardice is my real issue. It's like the photo-shopped picture of Kerry and Fonda. http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry2.asp If you let it go they will keep at it.

[premium]

100. I knew that photo was a fake, not a bad one,

but fake nontheless.

[kentuck]

83. I, also, was over there in '68.

But I don't recall her "saying that she wished she had an American plane in her sights...." ???

It is true that she was anti-war. In my opinion, that was the most honorable position to have at that time. We lost over 58,000 lives. That was where she stood.

It was unfortunate that she was photographed on an anti-aircraft gun. Who know's how much propaganda mileage the North Vietnamese got out of it? In my opinion, it was to make a statement to the US Government that they had guns and they were ready to defend themselves if Hanoi was bombed?

[premium]

99. The incident didn't happen in 68 while we were there,

it happened in 72, long after I had returned home.

Our opinions of her propaganda photo will just have to be different.
At this point in my life, I could care less about her or what she now thinks, it's just not important in my life.

What outfit were you with? If you don't mind my asking?

[kentuck]

113. MACV

Last unit was 59th Field Service. (Support and Transportation)

[liberal_at_heart]

52. American. I don't really even consider myself a democrat anymore.

I would like to be if I could find some good liberal democratic politicians who wouldn't take the lobby money and run as soon as they got in office.

[dkf]

54. I am not anything first

Let me make my own decisions please.

[ecstatic]

55. Neither. nt

[mindwalker_i]

56. I am a bunghole, first

And so are you!

[premium]

58. I am Cornholio

and this is my bunghole.

[mindwalker_i]

61. And don't even THINK

of making my bunghole angry!

[premium]

62. LOL.

That really was a controversial program at the time, now, by today's standards, it's pretty mild.

[mindwalker_i]

64. Yeah, it was controversial

For all the wrong reasons. Or at least some of them

One of the people I work with was talking about one of the new episodes where they were watching Jersey Shores and one charachter used the phrase, "that stuff that I eat." Beavis replied, "Oh yeah, FOOD!" B&B were a comment on how, even though they were really stupid, they represented the best of some groups of people.

[think]

103. ....

wish I hadn't...

[dkf]

60. Lol.

[winter is coming]

59. I don't do labels. n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

65. Are you now, or have you ever been an American? n/t

[Bjorn Against]

66. I am an Earthling first

I know of Jane Fonda and think she is an overall awesome person, not perfect but still a great human being.

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. as a matter of principle I don't like the idea of nationlist identity - but it is nonetheless the

reality of what we have to work with. Although nationalism is a relatively new phenomena. And working within the nation-state institutions is almost the only mechanism to achieve political purpose at this point and time in human history.

If by Democrat you mean a supporter of the American Democratic Party - then it is not possible to be one of those without being an American first. If you mean a democrat - small d. demos = the people - cracia = authority. One who believes that the right to authority comes from the people. I am a democrat first.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

74. I am a child of the universe.

[Honeycombe8]

75. REMEMBER Jane Fonda? Hey, she's still around! She's an icon and a role model.

She's made mistakes. Serious mistakes. But instead of living the life of luxury, as a wealthy child and the only girl of a wealthy movie legend, she built an acting career of her own. She's an excellent actress. Not only that, she went on to build an exercise video and paraphernalia mega business, and raised the consciousness of individuals about health and exercise. Not only that, she also published some health and exercise books. Not only that, she's been actively involved in politics and causes. She's a role model for women in America.

[Hissyspit]

81. See post #80. nt

[Honeycombe8]

109. No one reads long posts like that. I'll just say...

as Fonda said herself, she's made mistakes. She has apologized for her Vietnam behavior/statements. She was young and stupid.

She even sold out to the "blonde bombshell" route for her movies, she has said. She discusses this in the book of hers that I have. She deeply regrets that, since it perpetuated this falseness and objectivity of women that is so pervasive. She was young and stupid.

But she's a role model for women. And she looks great while doing it! She's shown you can be smart, savvy, purposeful, useful, business-wise, and still have cosmetic surgery and get your hair professionally done and wear awesome clothes and be in good shape while doing it!

[Narkos]

76. I'd prefer citizen of the universe, but for now

I will settle for American first. Unlike some of my fellow DUers'

[Pelican]

77. American first and not a fan...

Easy peasy...

[Apophis]

78. I am me first.

[PDJane]

84. I am a person, my nationality is Canadian.

My politics lean way left, and green.

I thought Jane Fonda brought things to light that should have been brought to light. The US has been disobeying international law for decades, and I happen to think that every president since the second world war is a war criminal. Some are worse, some are better, but the US has been engaging in clandestine and illegal wars for a very long time.

Moreover, Canada has been, often, at least complicit in those wars, with a few of her own. It's insanity.

[LittleBlue]

85. American

Some issues transcend party politics.

[DJWBlue]

86. I am sentient being. No more, no less. World citizen, Democrat, American, just creates

division and suffering.

[treestar]

89. I am OK with what Jane Fonda did

Your other question is silly. We are all Americans first.

[Taverner]

90. I am neither - I am a citizen of the world

Earth first! Then the rest

[TeeYiYi]

92. I liked Jane Fonda...

...with Robert Redford in the movie, 'Barefoot in the Park' from 1967. http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0061385/

I consider myself to be a human being that deserves basic human rights like every other human being.

TYY

[Blue_In_AK]

95. ...

First and foremost, I consider myself an Alaskan, then an American, then a Democrat.

Of course, I remember Jane Fonda and my opinion of her was and is positive.

[Arugula Latte]

97. Resident of planet Earth, then a woman, then a liberal. "American" is way far down on the list.

Nationalities don't mean much to me. I probably have more in common with some people halfway across the globe than I do with some people who live five miles from me.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

101. I consider myself a Californian first,

In any event the idea of a discernible American identity is an anachronism of when America was a homogeneous nation of two and a half million people, almost exclusively British and only sparsely populating not even 10% of the modern land mass along the Atlantic coast.

[flamingdem]

105. are you related to Vivian Sobchak?

none of my business of course, but she's a great writer

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

118. No, Walter Sobchak is a fictional character.

[TheMadMonk]

104. Put nationality or ideology ahead of humanity and all 3 become valueless. /nt

[liberal_at_heart]

106. how right you are.

[Chan790]

107. Neither.

A leftist, a globalist.
No.
Yes.
Neither.
Neither.

Isn't she the woman who did those exercise videos when I was a kid? I think her exercise videos were awful.

[sibelian]

110. Neither. I'm a pseudoanarchic limey.

...pip pip old bean...

[B Calm]

112. I had the hots for Jane Fonda

when I was a young man. She wanted the Vietnam War to stop and so did I!

I consider myself a Democratic American!

[Omaha Steve]

120. I'm a D that puts America first

Understanding issues and promoting the ones that put US first.

Jane is entitled to free speech. Doesn't matter if I agree with her trip to Nam.

[boilerbabe]

121. Neither. i consider myself a WORLD CITIZEN.

i do NOt consider myself a DEMOCRAT or any other right wing entity though that is how i vote most of the time because the republicans are much worse right wingers than the dems or they used to be . i feel i have no polical home anymore. where's Eugene Debbs when you need him? lol