General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGeorge Zimmerman Trial - how the hell can anyone look at the photos
of Trayvon Martin's body, face down on the ground surrounded by grass and believe Zimmerman's claim that Martin was straddling him and beating his head on concrete?
Photos here :
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/25/19134940-witness-recalls-efforts-to-save-wounded-trayvon-martin?lite
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)Those pictures do not show nor imply anything about what happened before Martin collapsed.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)To come to that conclusion you need other facts and evidence, which may be available elsewhere; but that was not the question asked.
MagickMuffin
(15,976 posts)Perhaps you need to change Martin to George pulled his gun and murdered unarmed teenager.!
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)He was MURDERED. Got it?
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)If he was in any type of upright position after being shot, he most certainly collapsed, by definition, else he would not be lying on the ground.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)My vocabulary is fine, and the fact that I caught the gist of your post just pissed you off. Go annoy somebody else Joe, I am not interested in you or anything you have to say.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)Whatever you caught, you should probably see a doctor for some antibiotics.
Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #47)
HangOnKids This message was self-deleted by its author.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Of course you want them to be protected, right?
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)It is OK to admit you misread my post about the picture.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)I will assume that the alert was related to your self-deleted message, which I never saw. Other than that, there is nothing in this subthread that is worthy of an alert.
yardwork
(61,748 posts)ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)upaloopa
(11,417 posts)The first one shows him face down holding his chest the second one shows him rolled over dead. The third one shows him covered but still dead.
I think that if you could get a real good look at the second picture you could see where the chest wound is.
He was armed with skittles and a drink.
He was walking home minding his own business.
He was stalked by a man with a gun
Put yourself in his place. What would you have done?
Did Martin have a right to stand his ground? If he feared for his life did he have a right to defend himself? If he was shot while defending himself he can't be blamed for injuring Zimmerman. Since Zimmerman had the gun how could he claim he was standing his ground when he was the aggressor?
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)Even when shot, he would have been able to run a bit before collapsing. That picture is close up enough, that even if Travon was 5 feet away from a sidewalk, it might not be visable due to the picture being so close up.
If you look at where the shooting happened, it was very close to a sidewalk.
I expect plenty of flames for this post. I'm not defending zimmerman, I'm just saying your picture proves nothing.
[link:|
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)I haven't heard it yet, though!
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)In fact, even death by guillotine isn't instantaneous. (Takes about 10 seconds after the blade falls.) When the heart is suddenly destroyed, there is still blood in the brain. Depending upon a number of factors, the person can live from a few seconds to up to a minute. They can only be physically active for a few seconds. During those first few seconds the muscles and brain are fully oxygenated and able to fully function. Plenty of time for TM to jump up in surprise, take a few steps, and collapse.
Gunshot death isn't like in the movies.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Which I suspect is the extent of your expertise.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)People have been shot and made it a few blocks before dying, so the scenario of somebody walking 10 feet is certainly plausible.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)csziggy
(34,139 posts)Between the first two buildings.
Martin did not move at all after being shot other than to fall over. The hollow nose bullet hit directly into his heart and fragmented shredding his heart and lungs.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Serino: OK. You shot him at point blank range. He was on top of you, right?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: OK. And in the middle of all that yelling, nobody came out to help you. And I cant, I cant pinpoint where you were smothered. Thats the problem Im having. And nobodys saying they saw him smothering you. People are saying they saw you, saw him on top of you, but they didnt see about the smothering part. So
Singleton: And when were listening to the screaming, doesnt sound like theres a hesitation in the screaming. It sounds like its continuous, and if someones being hurt (imitates scream being muffled) Its gonna stop. But we dont hear the, we dont hear it stop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=nZ3Q9cqvnC4&feature=fvwp
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)John2
(2,730 posts)if they asked her, the approximate time she saw the two figures and went back to her stove? I would also like to know when she heard the shot, if she immediately went back to her sliding door to look out, and if she saw any other person besides the body? Where was Zimmerman at the time?
She said that she saw too upright people struggling and the person asking if they needed to call the Police. She also claims somebody said something like No. That testimony doesn't support Zimmerman's description of what happened.
If the two people were struggling upright, at the same time the other witness asked if they wanted the police, It doesn't support Zimmerman's accounts. There is another possibility here. Zimmerman could have been chasing Martin instead. Martin could have been struggling to get away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman could have been trying to detain Martin. Why would somebody say no, at the same time the person asked to call the police? Zimmerman already had called the police, and knew they were enroute to the area. He is the one got out with a loaded gun looking for Martin.
If she only saw one body on the ground, then where was Zimmerman after the shot? How does anybody know Martin inflicted the wounds on Zimmerman? If there is no eye witness between Zimmerman and Martin, then it is only Zimmerman's word. And it is very mysterious Martin has none of Zimmerman's DNA.
grok
(550 posts)from the fotos you can tell how dark it was and the officer on the scene attests to that fact that if it wasn't for flash, you wouldn't be able to see anything in the photos.
the second problem is the distance. this lady lived only 3 houses away from TM's house. thats is almost at the very bottom right of the picture in post #3. I doubt anybody could see that far in the dark and come to any conclusion to what they saw. maybe she saw gz's flashlight and that's it. who knows?
the biggest issue with this witness is that she was caught in some blatant lies mainly centering on social media. she refused to acknowledge it till Omara forced to repeat verbally what was on her web-pages that he showed her with his laptop.
Not to say people haven't lied on both sides of this case, but this was pretty dumb.
grok
(550 posts)Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:23 PM - Edit history (2)
H = head F = feet. problem is the the previous fotos do not give you a wider view. it was dark at the time.
It could go either way for how close the concrete is. another problem is that the body was moved to administer cpr. hard to say if they positioned it back where it was.
the dispute is where the fight started. near #2 which would imply zimmerman never got closer than where he was when he was told to stop, or F/H which would imply he was still chasing, albiet at a snails pace(to get from #2) in 4 minutes.
#1 is missing from this foto. i think it was GZ's flashlight which was allegedly closer to the T than #2.
One can always dispute Occam's Razor.
my bad #5 is flashlight, #1 is keys, #2 is plastic baggie.
his vehicle, and when he first sighted Martin on the 911 call? Where was the 7eleven from Martin's house on his way home? If, he was enroute to his house, then he wasn't far from his destination. The only problem is Zimmerman caught up with him. If Martin was going to commit a murder or beat someone to death, why would he tell his girl friend on a cell phone about the person pursuing him?
grok
(550 posts)all we know is zimmerman was mere seconds away from his car, martin's house was a couple minutes away. the fight started about 3 minutes after zimmerman 911 call was over.
for perspective look at the truck in post #3. that's where zimmerman roughly parked.
not a clue what he actually told his 18 year old female friend.
we will find out what she says tomorrow..
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/twitter/rachel-jeantel-758403
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Does anyone have a photo that shows where the sidewalk is in relation to the body? If the distance is too great then this would put a major hole in Zimmerman's story. I thought I heard the prosecutor briefly mention this in yesterday's opening statement, this photo may or may not be a damning piece of evidence but at first glance it does not look good for Zimmerman.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)better perspective about where the body ended up.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Unless Zimmerman literally threw Trayvon the position of the body does not seem to suggest that Trayvon could have been bashing anyone's head into the concrete before the shooting happened. We will see how hard the prosecution jumps on this in the days ahead, but I suspect they are going to ask some tough questions about how the body got so far away from the sidewalk.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)We will see if the prosecution goes with this, maybe it can be explained but at first glance it looks like it could potentially be damning evidence against Zimmerman's story.
grok
(550 posts)and not the sidewalk zimmerman allegedly had his head bashed against. would feel just as hard.
look at the upper right of this picture. i can't be sure exactly what it is though.. for all i know it could be a flattened plastic bag.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)grok
(550 posts)hey, O'Mara claimed martin was armed with concrete.
Actually this makes sense. It's exactly in the right location. Seriously, I should call up O'Mara. Maybe they didn't count on this. Easy mistake to make. But fixable.
UPDATE: They responded(email). YAY! Thanks for bringing this up people...
magellan
(13,257 posts)Zimmerman said Trayvon was straddling him, he shot Trayvon, Trayvon sat up, and he doesn't know if he pushed Trayvon off him or he fell off, but there's no accounting for the distance Trayvon's body was from the sidewalk or any of the utility covers.
grok
(550 posts)each 5 feet from the sidewalk. One between his flashlight (#5)and (H/6)travon's head. What matters most is that there is now more plausiblility. No testimony is perfect. No memory is perfect. what matters is the general circumstances. This adds an extra component of plausibility when people say the sidewalk is too far.
magellan
(13,257 posts)...I'd have a hard time covering the distance between that utility cover and #6 where Trayvon's body was found lying face down (with his body aligned at an angle and his head closest to the sidewalk) given Zimmerman's testimony. There's no utility cover in that photo.
It's apparent to me just from looking at all the positioning photos on this thread that something more went on that Zimmerman hasn't revealed.
grok
(550 posts)i find it odd that evidence is spread over such a wide area.. Some people say that zimmerman purposely spread his stuff around so he could claim the fight started closer to the T. I don't think zimmerman is that bright.
As far as the utility covers, we ally know about the poor lighting in the night photographs. You can chose to be blind to that, but i wont. I wont ignore the evidence points in the daylight clearly show where the covers are in relation to trayvon's "last" position.
I don't expect that we will ever know all the truth. I doubt if even zimmerman knows all the truth. If we expect every defendant to get everything 100%, to demand that everything MUST have a perfect explanation, well, we should convict everybody arrested and not even bother with trial. Nobody and nothing could possibly meet that expectation in real life. Not even ourselves.
magellan
(13,257 posts)The flashlight #5 is clearly visible on the ground.
There's no utility cover between Trayvon's head (H) and #5 as you said above. There's no utility cover visible anywhere in the photo. And if you look at the photo you provided, you can see how far H is from #2.
In his reenactment, Z says T straddled him and beat his head against the sidewalk between the far right tree and #2. But T winds up lying closer to the utility cover at #7 if you take into account the angle of his body (F --> H). At the very least that suggests some unaccounted for movement occurred between T beating Z's head against sidewalk/utility cover and Z shooting him (the shell casing is marker 8).
Another discrepancy I noticed in Z's reenactment is he says his weapon was holstered when the police officer showed up. Funny thing is, he says he's been on top of T holding his arms out to the sides and asking the guy who showed up with the flashlight to help him, but not receiving any help. Was he holding the gun while holding down T all that time? And when did he have a chance to holster it before the cop appeared and he put up his hands?
I don't demand a perfect explanation, but some sense would be nice.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)It's hard to judge the distance to T's body, but it looks a bit far for that to be where he was beating Z's head against the sidewalk.
And besides that, Z says the beating happened closer to the end of the Dog Walk, between the tree and marker #2.
yardwork
(61,748 posts)and you are feeding them suggestions?
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)[link:|
magellan
(13,257 posts)This photo will be after the EMTs moved him, but 5' more or less.
niyad
(113,774 posts)no blood on his clothes, no grass stain on zimmy, front or back.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)This is the second time I've seen you reference physical evidence, or the lack thereof on an un dead person by the coroner in Trayvon's autopsy.
Also, where is this autopsy report available for viewing ?
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Zimmerman was going to harm him?
Yes, I think he did.
Therefore Zimmerman was the aggressor.
Case closed.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Martin from his truck. Martin apparently saw Zimmerman do this and thought Zimmerman was following him. (BEFORE 7:11pm)
At 7:11pm, Martin started to run away from Zimmerman (this is what Zimmerman told the non emergency dispatcher). Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and chased after Martin. Ay 7:13pm, Zimmerman said he lost Martin.
At 7:16pm, Zimmerman and Martin met up again. I'm not sure if Zimmerman took a shortcut and caught up to Martin that way or Martin doubled back and found Zimmerman. Martin yelled at Zimmerman "why are you following me?" and Zimmerman yelled at Martin "what are you doing here?" The fight ensues and less than a minute later, the fatal shot is fired.
Now, Martin was obviously scared enough of Zimmerman staring at him/following him in his truck that he decided to run for five minutes. Then he is unable to lose Zimmerman permanently because again, five minutes later Zimmerman catches up to him and starts yelling at him.
If someone you perceived as a creep decides to get out of his truck and run after you when you run away from him then starts yelling at you when he catches up to you, yes, I think that is reasonable he would cause you harm.
The only thing would be if Martin changed his mind after running away and decided to run back towards Zimmerman it might change things, but I do not believe that is the case.
Rhiannon12866
(206,601 posts)My heart goes out to his poor parents for having to relive this in such painful detail.