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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDouble down on Obama Hate w/Climate Change + Snowden! (Wapo Editorial)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/06/25/the-insiders-what-edward-snowden-teaches-us-about-obamas-climate-change-policy/** Those who attack Obama at every chance and cheer on Snowden who sold out to China will enjoy this. We can see here where extreme right does a reach around to its left. Expect more of same those who are naive enough to take things at face value in search of the anti-Obama hero of their dreams.
** Edit for clarity: My point is that the right is using Snowden to attack Obama's credibility on the international stage. You'll see more of this on every article out there that allows comments. The trolls have new instructions to modify their attack and their success hinges on attracting the libertarian left or left that hates Obama on xyz issues
The Insiders: What Edward Snowden teaches us about Obamas climate change policy
By Ed Rogers, Updated: June 25, 2013
I believe that if were ever going to do anything about climate change, it has to start with diplomatic agreements. It has to start with real international cooperation, not unilateral actions that gratuitously raise the cost of Americans power bills and hurt the U.S. economy.
Today, with the release of the The Presidents Climate Action Plan, President Obama announced the damage hes going to do to the American economy through actions that will have no appreciable effect on the global environment, much less lower the earths temperature to President Obamas desired level. And youll notice that while Obamas proposed plan contains a section on leading international efforts to address global climate change, his international plan consists of eye-rolling homilies and tired slogans like spurring concrete action through bilateral initiatives with China (what a joke) and forging global responses to climate change through the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. The president cannot even deal effectively with Congress, and he certainly hasnt demonstrated the diplomatic skills or foreign policy strength to move the world in the direction he wants it to go.
In case we needed a more vivid illustration of the presidents diplomatic limits, the case of National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden is revealing, in real time, Obamas lack of stature abroad and the diminished power of the White House. Russia, China, and no less than Ecuador are all showing defiance on this issue. If these countries thought they would suffer any consequences or that they had any price to pay whatsoever or, for that matter, if any reservoir of goodwill had been built during the Obama presidency they would do the reasonable thing and matter-of-factly hand over Mr. Snowden. But in this case, they obviously have no interest in cooperating with President Obama. These countries are gratuitously taunting the president and wont even extend us common diplomatic courtesies. And even worse, it is all happening in public. Essentially, the leaders of China, Russia and Ecuador are giving the president of the United States the diplomatic equivalent of the middle finger.
Russian President Vladimir Putin confirmed today that Snowden is in Russia but he will not be extradited to the United States. The Russians may give Snowden up eventually. They likely dont want him taking up room in their prisons or even in their cities, but theyre toying with Obama just because they can. Its humiliating, and its not helpful to us for other countries to see us in this weakened position.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Somehow I keep missing the important things...
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)in Hong Kong and in Beijing. Mobile phone SMS was one item at a University in Beijing.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Are you hoping for infinite or zero?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Im hoping for zero; but if the reporting is correct/accurate and the Chinese drained the 4 laptops Snowden took the answer would be somewhat more than zero, as Show any competent IT nerd what you have done/what you got from any system they have access to and they can tell you HOW you got it That is the danger in Snowdens actions.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)And then would have only promised the transfer of the key after reaching complete safety (though some may or may not honor that promise). You'd have to be insanely naive or stupid to hand over your chips while your ass is still on the line.
I don't necessarily believe those reports though (I don't disbelieve them).
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)decide which reports to believe and which not to believe.
And even if they didn't drain the laptops, by all accounts, Snowden gave/let them see documents detailing what the NSA did to which computers. That's enough to tease out how it was done.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)But do not disbelieve it. Understand?
That info was part of a character assassination campaign anyway (in an attempt to paint Snowden as a "traitor" friendly to the evil Chinese instead of a "whistleblower" . Its a bit suspicious to start with.
We really don't need Snowden anymore to figure this whole deal out. He is only a news item still due to his narcissistic tendencies and the opposing tactic of attacking the messenger. The sooner he is out of the conversation is the sooner real open investigations can actually figure out the complete scope of the spying programs.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and distrust that that doesn't?
By characterizing info as a part of a character assassination, you clearly have chosen to believe some of the reporting.
Well ... That honest.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Are you claiming there was no attempt to assassinate the character of this 29 year old lying, high-school drop-out, libertarian, pole-dancer dating, Ron Paul adoring, China/Russia loving traitor?
A character assassination campaign is an actual phenomenon that we are witnessing occur in real time around us (even if every facet of such an attempt is an actual fact), not a mere 2nd hand report that some are choosing to believe or disregard.
I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, my friend.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)is pretty clear and pretty simple. You have chosen to believe one side of the narrative and disbelieve the other. There is hyperbole on both sides of the narratives. We merely chose to believe that which confirms our bias ... when, in fact, no of us has enough access to the truth to determine the veracity of either.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)I think you will be sorely disappointed. I could give two fucks about any narrative around Snowden, other than how ridiculous they are in their extremes. As I said earlier...believe nothing and disbelieve nothing at the same time.
As far as government collection and analysis of metadata, even the kindest narrative provided by the government itself is not particularly seen in a favorable light be me and the government has verified at least the existence of these programs. Investigations and sunlight is needed so the public has all the facts to make judgments and form political action (or otherwise).
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)to say: "believe nothing and disbelieve nothing at the same time" is beyond the human capacity ... we all form judgments and you, whether you care to admit it, have chosen to believe that snowden is to be believed ... Not really; less we are talking about snowden's credibility and/or his motivation in revealing it.
Now, with respect to the NSA stuff ... again, we chose to believe one narrative or the other. This narrative is not whether the metadata is being collected and/or analyzed; but rather, it is being unlawfully collected and/or analyzed. And further, whether the collection and/or analysis is a greater threat to our liberty or a measure to protect our security.
And here again ... I ask how do you decide what information to believe and what information to disbelieve?
I happen to
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Huh? Im not sure what world you are living in. Its quite easy once you get the hang of it.
If you will, take a read of The Fixation of Belief (http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html)
you, whether you care to admit it, have chosen to believe that snowden is to be believed
I'm not sure how you arrived at this one. I really could care less about him at this point, other than being annoyed at the distraction fodder he has become to the real issues.
I think that you have chosen to believe that I believe he is to be believed, since I am not mutually engaging in character assassination. Is that maybe more on spot? Fuck if I care to be honest
but rather, it is being unlawfully collected and/or analyzed.
Thats just not really my concern. I do not really care if what the government does is in accordance with the laws the government writes to legalize what the government may do. What is more important is the manifestation of such activities and the potential manifestation of those activities in consideration to viable future realities.
And further, whether the collection and/or analysis is a greater threat to our liberty or a measure to protect our security
And this really isn't nearly as black and white as one may put it, because any activity collected today for the purpose of protection against today's threats will similarly be used and reused by evolving algorithms at the behest of evolving regimes for evolving purposes against evolving threats. In otherwords, no matter where this equation balances out today, we must then consider how such a balance will strike tomorrow, and into infinity, under every possible algorithm and regime that may likely exist to protect against all future threats that might exists (which you may or may not be identified as part of). This isn't a matter than can continually be revisited and remeasured continually, and "canceled" out if we are ever at the losing end because 1) the metadata has already be collected and can be used and 2) when at the "losing end" we can do nothing about it anyway. Frankly, only a pseudo-benevolent government would ever listen to the people to stop such collection & analysis (for the purposes of segmenting/profiling its people for automatic threat assessment), so when it becomes a threat to liberty (as it has the sure potential to), it is already to late to do something about it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)At this point I will take my leave. I response to my noting that ""believe nothing and disbelieve nothing at the same time" is beyond the human capacity; you point me to a philosophy writing discussing (I can only guess from my only reading the first sentence) the acguisition of logical thinking ... apparently unaware/unwilling to recognize that accepting the writing is, in fact, choosing to believe.
But not before, questioning what world I am living in. Then you write:
Thats just not really my concern. I do not really care if what the government does is in accordance with the laws the government writes to legalize what the government may do. What is more important is the manifestation of such activities and the potential manifestation of those activities in consideration to viable future realities.
thereby, demonstrating that it is you that should be questioning whether you live in this reality/world. We live in a world, not as we fanticize it, but as it is ... a "Democracy" in which laws are writing, with mechanisms to change them when a majority of us decide they are repugnant or fail to accomplish our collective desires.
I'm sorry ... I choose to live in the world I live in.
Good night.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)That's nuts man. Get a hold of yourself. It simply describes eloquently the process of psychologically converting and idea to a belief and reaffirming it, as well as the explicit pitfalls of doing so. It is self-evident knowledge.
The bottom line is it is 100% possible (as well as quite advisable) to listen to hearsay (even contradictory hearsay) and entertain them as ideas with possible validity rather that "true facts". Just ask my fellow religious agnostics, who neither believe nor disbelieve in God, and frankly challenge the notion that one could personally know the truth any which way you slice it. The world is not black and white, requiring you to choose your color.
a "Democracy" in which laws are writing, with mechanisms to change them when a majority of us decide they are repugnant or fail to accomplish our collective desires
The will of the majority means fuck all to the government, even in a "democracy". It will mean even less after its allowed to continually collect and analyze more "metadata"
Have a good one.
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)This is not even the top-of-the-line stuff. Assuming he's a professional, then unless they beat the password out of him (twice), they only have access to what he lets them have.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)Not everything.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)according to the Chinese papers ... the ones that showed, among other things, the IP addresses of the computers hacked and whether the hacks were activity. What more would the Chinese need?
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)For example, there's no telling what let us into the machines at the university.
Pirated windows OS that never updates? Uh huh.
Unnecessary services? Probably.
Unauthorized software installed by the technically incompetent? Likely.
Network managed by overworked grad students for essentially free? Bet on it.
It shows he has the goods while revealing nothing, because they have little direct control over or resources invested in such public systems, even if they do on paper.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but I'm pretty certain, if you show me what you have and where you've been ... IT can tease out how you got there.
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)Though remember, he didn't reveal attacks on government machines (If I remember correctly), but on non-governmental systems.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and/or the other identified hacked sites wouldn't keep and pay attention ... the hack U.S. sites did.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)Edward Snowden has told Hong Kong publication Sunday Morning Post the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) has been hacking Chinese mobile companies to steal text messages and attacking the servers at Tsinghua University.
The former technican for the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and contractor for the NSA had provided documents revealing attacks on computers over a four-year period, South China Morning Post (SCMP) reported on Sunday.
The documents had listed operational details of specific attacks on computers including Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, dates of attacks and whether a computer was still being monitored remotely.
The report claimed NSA extensively hacked major telecommunication companies in China to access text messages. According to Snowden data from Chinese telcos had been comrpomised, with millions of private text messages mined by the NSA.
It also stated the NSA was conducting sustained attacks on the network backbones at Tsinghua University, which is regarded as China's top education and research institute, and carries on extensive work on next-generation Web technologies.
http://www.zdnet.com/cn/snowden-nsa-hacked-china-telcos-submarine-cable-network-firm-7000017244/
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)I took your post as indicating that he was rewarded for those docs. That I don't see in your links.
If you want to call sharing those docs "selling out", then I get where you're coming from.
It surely is one of the moves by Snowden that I can't agree with and that quite frankly I don't understand. What good did he think would come out of this?
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)The goal is unknown but they did allow him to leave even after his passport was revoked
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Although I don't know how plausible that is. It's hard to judge if Snowden had anything to share with the chinese that would really warrant their interest. It depends on how aware the chinese are of their systems being hacked - considering their reputation I'd venture to guess that they have no illusions about it and track and locate attacks. My superficial impression is that the Chinese gov - just as the Russian - couldn't get rid of him fast enough.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)allowing Xi to discount any criticism about Chinese hacking, which is far more lethal, and overall relations have been severely hurt by Snowdens choices to reveal what he did.
China stole next gen blueprints for US weaponry, that's not in the headlines, it's very bad though
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Although I am highly critical of media accounts of hackings that were "traced to China". Methinks that when the Chinese steal, it can't be that easily traced. Maybe most of the hacking ascribed to the chinese is done by the russians and vice versa. Not that I'd want to dispute that all major nations engage in this kind of electronic warfare. There are some epistemic concundrums involved here. Brave new world, indeed.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)and they were lectured on it by Obama who was quickly undermined with Snowden's revelatons
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Ed Rogers
PostPartisan Contributor
Ed Rogers is a contributor to the PostPartisan blog, where he spars with Democratic strategist Hilary Rosen under the Insiders banner. He is also chairman of the lobbying and communications firm BGR Group, which he founded with now-Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour in 1991. Rogers has been involved with numerous Republican political campaigns, including the presidential campaigns of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. In the first Bush White House, he reported to chief of staff John Sununu. In the Reagan White House, he worked in the office of political affairs.
Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #4)
animato This message was self-deleted by its author.
hatrack
(59,601 posts)IOW, just another of Gov. Redeye Gravy's "brain trust".
Response to flamingdem (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)There are many things more critical than the nsa and the grey areas involved there that just leave space for the right wing to wiggle in there.
Before we know it they're agreeing with many here!
Oh the irony..
What matter most is climate change, exactly, voters rights, citizens united... so much more
frylock
(34,825 posts)from a troll that was TS'd.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)you're pretty nasty
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)signing off on this ts'ed libertarian whackadoodle troll, spewing his Alex Jones garbage.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10023080227&info=1#recs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=281180&sub=trans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3080227
Glass houses, etc...
temmer
(358 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)change. Oh boy, the desperation is getting real thick lately.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)Obama, and that some of those sectors are on the right and some are here right at DU!
quinnox
(20,600 posts)See post #4.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)My point is the way the right is using Snowden and the left being naive thinking this is about "freedom" and 4th amendment when its about Realpolitik and undermining Obama
G_j
(40,372 posts)what's next?
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)happy fucking birthday, Mr. Orwell.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)I can assure that this isn't some nefarious plot on my part.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)who needs to do things like "just surfing and knocking down your bullshit"
frylock
(34,825 posts)Stinky The Clown
(67,838 posts). . . . . whut?
Enrique
(27,461 posts)Rogers' pose as being concerned about climate change is at least good for a laugh.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)thing that Obama is weak blah blah
sheshe2
(84,010 posts)Pretty obvious that you were to busy writing your fictional editorial, to listen to the Presidents speech!
I guess you must be one of the partisans the President was speaking of since you said this too: :"I hope Republicans in Congress do everything they can to stop the unilateral plan on climate change that the president announced today."
You, Mr. Rogers, only wanted a podium in which to trash this President. "He announced the damage hes going to do to the American economy" Seriously??? And Ed Rogers believes that this President can't deal with congress... Really? He needs to just waive his wand to make the party of NO get off their collective butts to do something.
Ed Rodgers is out of his ever loving mind!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/06/25/the-insiders-what-edward-snowden-teaches-us-about-obamas-climate-change-policy/
frylock
(34,825 posts)babylonsister
(171,107 posts)still_one
(92,493 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)industrial complex?
frylock
(34,825 posts)it's either/or.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)He should focus on good things like that instead of defending failed Bush policies. That, not Snowden, is why he encounters eye-rolling.
hatrack
(59,601 posts)More to the point, why should I care what Ed rogers thinks?
Just sayin' . . . .
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)At least no one has been called a "running dog lackey" yet.
Turbineguy
(37,400 posts)to tear down The US.
Apparently.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)because of it, hiding in authoritarian countries. I don't view that as humiliating to the country at all. Humiliating to Snowden's family, yes.
It's no more humiliating than that Max Factor rapist heir escaping to Mexico (for a while). That's what those who have done wrong do. But my guess is that he'll be coming back, either involuntarily or voluntarily. I'm sure he's missing his freedom, which he surely does not have in Russia.