Take A Break From The Snowden Drama For A Reminder Of What He's Revealed So Far

[Catherina]

Take A Break From The Snowden Drama For A Reminder Of What He's Revealed So Far

Andy Greenberg, Forbes Staff
Covering the worlds of data security, privacy and hacker culture.

...

now may be as good a time as any to take an intermission from the drama and recall the real story: the biggest global privacy scandal of the decade. Here’s a recap of Snowden’s leaked documents published so far, in my own highly subjective order of importance.

--- The publication of Snowden’s leaks began with a top secret order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) sent to Verizon on behalf of the NSA, demanding the cell phone records of all of Verizon Business Network Services’ American customers for the three month period ending in July. The order, obtained by the Guardian, sought only the metadata of those millions of users’ calls–who called whom when and from what locations–but specifically requested Americans' records, disregarding foreigners despite the NSA’s legal restrictions that it may only surveil non-U.S. persons. Senators Saxby Chambliss and Diane Feinstein defended the program and said it was in fact a three-month renewal of surveillance practices that had gone for seven years.

--- In a congressional hearing, NSA director Keith Alexander argued that the kind of surveillance of Americans’ data revealed in that Verizon order was necessary to for archiving purposes, but was rarely accessed and only with strict oversight from Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judges. But another secret document published by the Guardian revealed the NSA’s own rules for when it makes broad exceptions to its foreign vs. U.S. persons distinction, accessing Americans’ data and holding onto it indefinitely. Those exceptions include anytime Americans’ data includes “significant foreign intelligence” information or information about a crime that has been or is about to be committed, any data “involved in the unauthorized disclosure of national security information,” or necessary to “assess a communications security vulnerability.” Any encrypted data that the NSA wants to crack can also be held indefinitely, regardless of whether its American or foreign origin.

--- Another leaked slide deck revealed a software tool called Boundless Informant, which the NSA appears to use for tracking the origin of data it collects. The leaked materials included a map produced by the program showing the frequency of data collection in countries around the world. While Iran, Pakistan and Jordan appeared to be the most surveilled countries according to the map, it also pointed to significant data collection from the United States.

--- A leaked executive order from President Obama shows the administration asked intelligence agencies to draw up a list of potential offensive cyberattack targets around the world. The order, which suggests targeting "systems, processes and infrastructure" states that such offensive hacking operations “can offer unique and unconventional capabilities to advance U.S. national objectives around the world with little or no warning to the adversary or target and with potential effects ranging from subtle to severely damaging.” The order followed repeated accusations by the U.S. government that China has engaged in state-sponsored hacking operations, and was timed just a day before President Obama’s summit with Chinese President Xi Jinping.

--- Documents leaked to the Guardian revealed a five-year-old British intelligence scheme to tap transatlantic fiberoptic cables to gather data. A program known as Tempora, created by the U.K.’s NSA equivalent Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) has for the last 18 months been able to store huge amounts of that raw data for up to 30 days. Much of the data is shared with the NSA, which had assigned 250 analysts to sift through it as of May of last year.

--- Another GCHQ project revealed to the Guardian through leaked documents intercepted the communications of delegates to the G20 summit of world leaders in London in 2009. The scheme included monitoring the attendees’ phone calls and emails by accessing their Blackberrys, and even setting up fake Internet cafes that used keylogging software to surveil them.

--- Snowden showed the Hong Kong newspaper the South China Morning Post documents that it said outlined extensive hacking of Chinese and Hong Kong targets by the NSA since 2009, with 61,000 targets globally and “hundreds” in China. Other SCMP stories based on Snowden’s revelations stated that the NSA had gained access to the Chinese fiberoptic network operator Pacnet as well as Chinese mobile phone carriers, and had gathered large quantities of Chinese SMS messages.

--- The Guardian’s Glenn Greenwald has said that Snowden provided him “thousands” of documents, of which “dozens” are newsworthy. And Snowden himself has said he’d like to expose his trove of leaks to the global media so that each country's reporters can decide whether “U.S. network operations against their people should be published.” So regardless of where Snowden ends up, expect more of his revelations to follow.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/25/take-a-break-from-the-snowden-drama-for-a-reminder-of-what-hes-revealed-so-far/
[center][/center]

[snot]

1. K&R'd & bookmarked.

[BehindTheCurtain76]

68. More Important What exNSA's Russ Tice Said Last Week!!!!!!!!!!!

Much more important what NSA's Russ Tice said LAST WEEK!!!

Here is what exNSA whistleblower Russ Tice said :

Indeed, NSA whistleblower Russ Tice, the principal source for The New York Times exposé of illegal Bush administration spy programs, told Sibel Edmonds' Boiling Frogs Post podcast that the secret state has ordered surveillance on a wide range of groups and individuals, including antiwar activists, high-ranking military officials, lawmakers and diplomats.

According to Tice: "Okay. They went after--and I know this because I had my hands literally on the paperwork for these sort of things--they went after high-ranking military officers; they went after members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and some of the--and judicial. But they went after other ones, too. They went after lawyers and law firms. All kinds of--heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges. One of the judges is now sitting on the Supreme Court that I had his wiretap information in my hand. Two are former FISA court judges. They went after State Department officials. They went after people in the executive service that were part of the White House--their own people. They went after antiwar groups. They went after US international--US companies that that do international business, you know, business around the world. They went after US banking firms and financial firms that do international business. They went after NGOs that--like the Red Cross, people like that that go overseas and do humanitarian work. They went after a few antiwar and civil rights groups. So, you know, don't tell me that there's no abuse, because I've had this stuff in my hand and looked at it."

"Here's the big one," Tice told hosts Sibel Edmonds and Peter B. Collins, "this was in summer of 2004, one of the papers that I held in my hand was to wiretap a bunch of numbers associated with a 40-something-year-old wannabe senator for Illinois. You wouldn't happen to know where that guy lives right now would you? It's a big white house in Washington, D.C. That's who they went after, and that's the president of the United States now."

Other political targets revealed by Tice included all nine Supreme Court justices, Senate Intelligence Committee head Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), House Minority leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and ousted CIA director General David Petraeus, who allegedly resigned over a sex scandal.

[Progressive dog]

74. I went to dailypaul to see why even Greenwald is ignoring

Russ Tice, but they wanted me to subscribe.

James Corbett Points Out - No Mention Of Russ Tice By Glenn Greenwald.

link:http://www.dailypaul.com/290516/james-corbett-points-out-no-mention-of-russ-tice-by-glenn-greenwald|

[xchrom]

2. Du rec. Nt

[JaneyVee]

3. Snowden drama more interesting than leaks.

[siligut]

4. Thank you, this is a helpful post

Snowden opened a can of worms and this isn't going to end anytime soon.

[rhett o rick]

5. Yes but on the other hand, his former girlfriend was a pole dancer and he was expelled from kinder-

garden. And if he hadnt done this we would all live happily ever after, living in the ignorant bliss we so cherish.

[warrant46]

27. LOL

[Swagman]

75. and what about the boxes in the garage?

[rhett o rick]

83. And there is that. nm

[still_one]

6. That is what is known so far. No one knows yet the full extent of what he stole, at least the

General public doesnt

[zeemike]

13. I hope he stole it all

I am always happy when someone steals what the thief has stolen from us...

[ProSense]

14. It didn't mention "direct access," but

it does mention this:

"extensive hacking of Chinese and Hong Kong targets by the NSA since 2009, with 61,000 targets globally"

Really, the U.S. started hacking China in 2009?

To simply posts a rundown of what Snowden revealed is an exercise is cataloguing misinfomration.

So many of his claims have been debunked and questioned. He's also selectively releasing information to foreign entities so it's hard to know if the he's manipulating events.

Snowden plans more leaks...will let foreign press decide if leaks endanger Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023084875

[JDPriestly]

20. Seriously, are we supposed to be as outraged by the report you

discuss as we are by the simple fact that a private corporation has been hired by the NSA to spy on our communications, to trace the paths of our communications in the world?

We are in an electronic prison called America, and we are supposed to be upset because one of the prison guards is telling people in other countries that they, too, are in this electronic prison?

That doesn't sell very well as far as I am concerned.

I am one of the millions of Americans with very little and even less to hide, but the idea that my government wants to cut my Social Security checks so that it can fund programs that cage me in with regard to my contacts with others is really offensive to me.

I'm not that interested in what Snowden tells the Chinese. We know that they already have the whole world under surveillance.

If we don't like that fact, then we should stop buying our underwear from them. It's quite simple. If the grocer cheats me, I stop buying my groceries from him. What is so difficult about that?

But it is a little tougher when it comes to my own government. As you know, I didn't just vote for Obama, I worked hard to get him elected. Is supported his ACA although I think it is less than we need.

But this??????? I don't doubt Snowden's word that he had the ability to collect much more information on Americans than Obama has admitted.

[marions ghost]

23. 'an electronic prison called America"

--that is what it is. And people just can't face it.
your words

[JDPriestly]

25. No wonder they are trying to destroy the post office. They can't read

and track our snail mail as easily as they can our e-mail.

[marions ghost]

30. That thought occurred to me

they seem on a mission to kill it.

Me personally, I'm going to rely on ninjas.

[ProSense]

28. No,

Seriously, are we supposed to be as outraged by the report you

discuss as we are by the simple fact that a private corporation has been hired by the NSA to spy on our communications, to trace the paths of our communications in the world?

We are in an electronic prison called America, and we are supposed to be upset because one of the prison guards is telling people in other countries that they, too, are in this electronic prison?

...you can be "outraged" at any issue of your choosing. Also, I'm sure these revelations are going to inspire China, Russia and other countries to abandon the "electronic prison" their citizens find themselves in. I mean, the U.S. is certainly the worst of the lot, right?

[Rooting for the Dems]

62. I think Snowden blew it.

By running into the arms of Putin, Snowden is going to look worse and worse in the eyes of many Americans. He'll lose a lot of sympathy with the guy in the street. He should have been smarter than to let himself be pawned that way.

[sabrina 1]

95. So, what do you think about the ffact that the US has turned into a huge Surveillance State?

[cynzke]

89. What Is Of Concern.

Not what Snowden tells the Chinese and Russians about our program, but whether he shares the mechanisms that will allow them computer access into our government files. Big differences between sharing info with your neighbors and giving them the keys to your house.

[ZombieHorde]

53. Which of his claims have been debunked.

I either missed those posts, or I forgot about them (I sometimes read DU while drinking and sleepy).

[sabrina 1]

96. You didn't have to tell us that, it's in your file!

[ZombieHorde]

97. Ha! nt

[Hissyspit]

63. "Misinformation..."

Funny.

[RC]

76. Why do you keep defending the NSA's actions?

What do you get out of doing so?

[cynzke]

92. Why Do People Misconstrue!

Voicing opinions about Snowden does not mean people defend the NSA. That is just baloney. Why do people think everybody has to beat the same drum at the same time? Those who want to comment on the NSA actions are free to do so and are doing so. If you want to keep the topic on the NSA, simply say you would like to focus on the NSA and would appreciate leaving the Snowden aspect of it out of the discussion of this thread. I could understand and respect that. Otherwise, the thread is open for everyone to express an opinion on the entire scope of this situation. I strongly disagree with the way Snowden is handling this and I suspect some of his motives. Having said that, I think Snowden was right to expose the NSA and our government in domestic spying. Just because I choose in any one thread to comment on Snowden, does not mean I must ALSO voice and opinion about the NSA. It my prerogative to do so when and where I want. We shouldn't be telling people.....you should be talking about what the NSA did, not about Snowden. Wrong, if YOU want to talk about the NSA, then talk. If others choose to talk about Snowden, they have that right. We can agree or disagree with opinions but we shouldn't be chastising people on what the choice of topic.

[WillyT]

7. K & R !!!

[dixiegrrrrl]

8. Valuable summary. The CONTENT of his leaks is far more important

than all this obsession of where he is and who he is and etc.

[Catherina]

10. You're so right! n/t

[NRaleighLiberal]

9. ..but.. but we have hope.

[OnyxCollie]

11. K&R. nt

[temmer]

12. Thank you - but I'm afraid as long as Snowden is on the run

he and not the surveillance thing will make up the headlines.

I hope he will find a shelter soon - for him, for us, for the planet.

[KurtNYC]

72. No. The story is already moving from mass warrantless surveillance to what they do with the info

like blackmail for instance:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-spying-and-intelligence-collection-a-giant-blackmail-machine-and-warrantless-wiretapping-program/5340204?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nsa-spying-and-intelligence-collection-a-giant-blackmail-machine-and-warrantless-wiretapping-program

[temmer]

87. Good

people probably need time to get aware of the ramifications and long-term effects of a big brother system.

[byeya]

15. The obsession with Snowden is a distraction from the eye-opening revelations his

documents reveal.
This time there's no place for 0bama to hide so his chorus is told to pump up the Snowden angle and drown out the misdeeds of the administration.
It may work in this country, but it's not working in most other countries.

[Catherina]

17. I don't think this story will go away no matter what twisted spin or distraction some may invent

Snowden already encrypted and distributed the files in case anything happens to him. Do you remember what Wikileaks did as an insurance policy a few years ago? It sounded very similar to that.

Even if people in this country choose to go the lazy route and believe the spin, they won't be able to avoid a very rude awakening from the rest of the world. All that market-rigging by companies like Booz Allen Hamilton, "leading provider of management and technology consulting services to the U.S. government in the defense, intelligence and civil markets" is coming to light too. I'm not following that aspect but I think we're headed for a rude awakening.

Here's their "Who We Serve". The foreign business community we compete against, as in Boeing vs Airbus, isn't missing where the Carlyle Group's BAH is getting its*deep expertise* from.

We focus in many arenas, including national and international security, economic well-being, health, environment, and public infrastructure. Our deep expertise in technology, engineering, and analytics helps us serve a broad constituency of clients, ranging from cabinet-level departments of the U.S. government to corporations, institutions, and organizations.

Booz Allen’s major clients include global corporations in the health, energy, and financial services sectors, as well as nearly all departments and agencies across the U.S. federal government. These clients face a wide range of complex and pressing challenges such as combating global terrorism, improving cyber capabilities, transforming the healthcare system, improving energy usage, and protecting the environment.

To address these challenges, Booz Allen Hamilton’s approach is that of a trusted and long-term partner. We deliver objective, trusted advice to our clients via expert analysis rooted in deep domain knowledge and functional expertise. Our collaborative culture also helps ensure the delivery of highly responsive services to clients who must respond to emerging trends, evolving missions, and changing market conditions.

http://www.boozallen.com/consultants

So yeah, we're desperately trying to pump up the volume! Anything to distract from real issues, that could affect real economics, all because of that Trillion dollar monster and its accomplices.

[Enthusiast]

69. But everyone on TV says Snowden did bad stuff.

On MSNBC they call Snowden bad names.

[LiberalLovinLug]

16. K and R

I'm just waiting for the interviews with his ex-girlfriends about how much of a creep he was and what kind of strange sexual deviancies he liked.

[Magoo48]

18. Yes, indeed...

The gentleman did what he did. My approval or disapproval is irrelevant. I'm much more interested in the Survailance Systems I helped pay for, manned by spies and spooks of all kinds whose wages I help pay for. Then, these same Shades want to hide said system and acquired data from me, a part owner in the entire nasty business. I find that the information is the rat fuck here, whereas, Mr. Snowden, has played his part.

[truedelphi]

57. Same here. And as we study the situation, we find out that a lot of the

Military budget, which is anywhere from over 600 Billion to 1+ Trillions of dollars each year, now is dedicating a lot of its monetary resources to pay for surveillance. Everyone will either be a spy, like in STASI (East German police spy network, which some say had 25% of the East German population spying on the rest of their neighbors,) or else be spied upon!

The old Mad Magazine "Spy Vs Spy" cartoon comes to mind.

Think of how much good that money could do to help our infra structure, our schools etc.

I am much more afraid of some highway giving way underneath me, than I am of "terrorism." (And it is of no comfort to me that many in the Bush Admins were directly told what was going to happen, and they let it happen, anyway, back on Nine Eleven.)

[limpyhobbler]

19. Ironic that he's being accused of spying for exposing the government was spying on everybody. nt

[me b zola]

21. K&R

[toby jo]

22. Wonder how many heads have rolled already?

[intaglio]

24. Going through your points one by one

But missing out the drama.

Congress has been approving the continued surveillance if US citizen's metadata, as has FISC. This is an ongoing program with which Congress and FISC see no problem. Fine, get Congress to legislate and if possible have the Supreme Court to rule on the constitutionality of the practice because currently the legal system sees nothing wrong with a practice that has been going on for years.

The NSA director admits that the Verizon order was made and that some US data is looked at using specific rules regarding these exceptions. Some data is held indefinitely:
1) when the data contains foreign intelligence information, you do realise that this means the NSA is involved in spying??!!11!!
2) information about a planned crime, so if a crime is being planned you expect the NSA to ignore that and not keep the information for possible prosecutions;
3) if it discloses US secrets, and that is not a crime?
4) if it shows communications vulnerabilities and if communications are vulnerable you do not want it sorted out ... right;
5) encrypted data can be held indefinitely ... No! tell me it ain't so because spies and terrorists NEVER use encryption.

There is a software tool that gathers the origins of the data that the NSA studies. Places like Jordan, Iran and Pakistan are hotspots - perhaps that's because persons of interest congregate in those places - and (Shock! Horror!!) the USA which is where the NSA wants to prevent crimes happening. I would also suggest that you look at commercially available software that does the same thing for private individuals and companies.

The President asked the US security services to look at cyber attack targets round the world. Were you also aware that the US also gathers information about possible targets for nuclear missiles, drone attacks, air strikes and invasion sites? How terrifying, how scary - Oh, it isn't it's normal preparedness, it's what Presidents and their military folk do and it's also called forward planning.

Tempora is ECHELON by another name because it includes different technology and ECHELON has been going on for at least 60 years. There are also similar stations and programs in Japan, Australia and, possibly, Spain. Yes, it is shocking when you first hear about it and in a perfect world it should not happen. Unfortunately the world is very far from perfect and at least this way the USA gets to see what its allies are spying on.

Monitoring the documents and telephone calls of G20 delegates, you are aware that such behavior always happens whatever the venue and that diplomatic and finance delegates are aware of that? Everybody does it may not be a good excuse but it remains true.

In respect of China see above with a side order of - you are aware that there is a significant Muslim population in China?

Glen Greenwood is a known exaggerator and is an outrage junkie. He may work for The Guardian but that does not make him a good and dispassionate journalist.

Basically, take your M$M inspired "Let's hate Obama" campaign let some reality into it.

[JDPriestly]

32. Stay away from the communications of American citizens.

If someone is suspected of a crime, investigate in the traditional way.

Don't snoop on my telephone calls and e-mails. Don't snoop on my friends and family. Don't talk to the employers and teachers and merchants of my friends and family. Don't do it.

And above all, don't snoop on the phone calls of the people who are supposed to be "freely" reporting the news to me. If a reporter talks to someone suspected of being a terrorist somewhere, let him do it. That's what a reporter is supposed to do. And don't trace his calls or his e-mails. That violates the First Amendment.

Don't trace my computer trail. I go to great lengths to be able to visit my knitting and gardening sites without being placed under surveillance. And if I want to visit a site that shows videos of political demonstrations here or abroad, I should be free to do so without government surveillance.

This is elementary Americanism. Who is being unamerican here? Not me. It's those who justify surveillance of Americans without a warrant who are anti-American, who are aiding the enemy, not those of us who want to enjoy our privacy.

The companies that follow us around on the internet should be barred from doing that.

[intaglio]

43. I burst out laughing when I saw this

If someone is suspected of a crime, investigate in the traditional way.

And how, pray, do you do that for digital crime? do you want the copper to come and take fingerprints of an e-mail from that Prince who wanted to use your bank account as a resting place for all his ill-gotten gains?

Perhaps you want grizzled veterans and fresh faced young detectives to knock on the door of every website to try and trace the child pornographer?

The cyber attack that might clean out your bank account should be stopped by the doddery old security guard and his trusty .38?

What about an assault on the factory producing fissile material, possibly for an atom bomb? Should servicemen die because you don't want the government to use computer viruses?

As for the rest of your Luddite fantasies ...

[JDPriestly]

45. If they were really looking for cybercrime, we wouldn't have so much of it.

That is not at all the purpose of this program.

A friend of mine's e-mail account was hijacked just last week.

Where were the cyberspies? Nowhere to be found.

They use this and other intelligence programs to accomplish this horrible program:

http://www.upworthy.com/ive-needed-someone-to-break-down-this-whole-drone-thing-for-me-and-this-nyu-student-finally-did-it-2?c=upw1

[intaglio]

47. Absolute garbage

And if we went back to trial by ordeal we wouldn't have so many of these new crimes ...

[Th1onein]

59. Yes, because when in doubt, torture is always the answer.

Torture, baby, torture!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

67. We do it the same way as ever...with a specific warrant

Do you want to be a smartness? Come to me, we can have a nice conversation. Maybe we can start by talking about your desire to ass-fuck the Constitution of the United States because you think that a digital age somehow requires an authoritarian government to spy on everyone.

[intaglio]

99. Nice misinterpretation

Shame it misses the point entirely.

Everything you do online or using a cellphone generates metadata. This is NOT the content of the message but details describing where the message is going and where it is from. This metadata is absolutely required by the mechanisms that allow you to use these services. It is analogous to the envelope of a letter.

Now let us say you are writing to your old Aunt Maude in Snohomish, the Postal Service looks at that envelope and the return address, looks at the stamp showing how much postage you have paid. The US Postal Service also weighs the letter to ensure it is not overweight for the postage paid, probably passes it through metal detection, checks the routing data (surface or airmail) and may X-ray and submit it to other examination if the letter seems suspicious. Do you object to any of this?

Another letter recovered from the same postbox is addressed to Saif al-Adel at an address in Egypt, do you for one second think that such a letter should be passed on without even greater examination and investigation than a letter to your Aunt Maude? Do you believe that the USPS should not pass this letter over to the NSA?

The analogy can be carried even further. The USPS passes most mail through some form of optical scanner and the data about that letter is held in a database so that mail distribution can be optimised. Large increases in mail volumes to a particular area may mean that resources may need to be reallocated. Let's sat that those records, metadata, show that many people are writing to an Aunt at that address in Snohomish. Metal detection show that some of these letters may contain cash do you think that the information stored should not be used to launch an investigation into possible fraud?

[bvar22]

90. FIRST,

...according to our Constitution, there MUST be evidence of a CRIME.


THEN, a request for a WARRANT naming the CRIME, the individual PERSON involved in The Crime, the "specific" location to be SEARCHED, the the specific ITEMS to be Searched FOR,
MUST be granted by a Judge.

Broad Drag Nets spying on MILLIONS of American, looking for anything that might be considered suspicious,
and the storing of information for use at a future date
is PROHIBITED.

Are you an American?

Did you ever take a course in Civics?

Do you have even the slightest acquaintance with something we call the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?

There are NO Exceptions,
and 9-11 did NOT "Change Everything."

[RC]

79. That would make a good sig line...

[center] It's those who justify surveillance of Americans without a warrant who are anti-American, who are aiding the enemy, not those of us who want to enjoy our privacy.[/center]

Too bad it won't fit on a bumper sticker.

[hueymahl]

84. Very well said! NT

[sabrina 1]

36. Here, let me try to make this clear. I don't want peeping toms 'collecting and storing' my phone

data. I am living in what we are told is a Democracy. I don't want my MOTHER tracking my phone calls.

I don't want my husband tracking my phone habits. It is CREEPY, it is skin crawlingly weird to know that strangers' maybe outsourced strangers in some foreign country, are 'storing your data'. It is Orwellian, it is wrong and finally it is ILLEGAL.

Stop with the excuses. There IS NO excuse for this. Who are these people?? Nearly everyone I know is totally creeped out by this disgusting behavior and if it was anyone but the powerful government over which we have completely lost control they would be arrested for this. I am sick to death of the apologia we are seeing for something that is totally indefensible in any civilized society.

[intaglio]

40. Then tell Verizon and all the other phone companies to stop

Because they collect that data already and such data collection is essential to how their businesses work. Please educate yourself about modern technology. Many people do not want their spouse to see your phone habits but that does not stop such mobile phone records being subpoenaed in difficult divorces.

I would also expect you to educate yourself about legality. I was informed at length in another thread about how a dissent by Thurgood Marshall showed such data collection to unconstitutional. I need hardly point out to you that a dissent from the verdict of the Supreme Court means that the Supreme Court did not think such data collection infringed the protection from "unlawful searches and seizures."

What you are objecting to is creepyness - well, welcome to the modern world; the internet and all digital communications depend upon metadata, they do not work without it. And infamously anything you put on the internet can come back to haunt you.

People used to find it creepy to be "spied on" by video cameras everywhere, well guess what? Nobody notices now unless there is a lack of such cameras recording crimes and disasters. Get used to the creepyness and assume, if you must, that you never say anything that would later cause you embarrassment or that you could not defend in court.

[sabrina 1]

44. I'll try to make it simple. If I agree to someone having access to something that belongs to me,

that eliminates the 'creep' factor, because I have control of the situation. If that same something that belongs to me, is accessed by a stranger, or strangers without my knowledge or consent, then I call the police.

You are putting forth the age-old argument in defense of the indefensible. Today's technology is no less or no more 'new' than the printing press, or the telephone was back in the old days. The 4th Amendment covers future technology and our laws are incredibly capable of preventing the abuse of new technology.

The FFs were fully aware when they wrote the 4th Amendment into the Constitution that there would be advancement in technology re communications, after all they took advantage of the new technology of their time. The word 'effects' in the 4th Amendment should give you a clue as to how thoughtful they were when they wrote that amendment.

Stop using technology as an excuse for these abuses of our rights. If my neighbor used this incredible technology to spy on me, I could have him arrested. I want the mega spies arrested and charged with violating the rights of the millions of people whose personal privacy they are invading same as I would want any peeping tom arrested.

[intaglio]

50. So you agree to Verizon having your private details

but do you object to them sharing those details with AT&T, Big Sky or Bluegrass? You shouldn't because they have to share that information. But you have no agreement with those external companies.

On respect of the 4th amendment please read what I wrote in that the Supreme Court has already ruled on a similar case and found no infringement. The decision was 5 - 3 and one of the 2 dissents was Marshall's.

In respect of what the FFs could foresee, do you think they could foresee a world in which private individuals could own sufficient firepower to defeat an army of their time? Do you think they could foresee that private individuals could build a weapon firing invisible rays that would kill several days hence?

Every time you write an e-mail you are sending personal data potentially round the world and that data is examined by thousands of software agents of many companies - and with none of them do you have any agreement. Every time you use a computer program on the internet you are publishing personal detail. Watch a You Tube or Vimeo video there is more personal detail plus detail about your previous viewing habits. Visit a website and detail about you goes to Google or some other aggregator and you do not have a personal agreement about that either.

[Th1onein]

60. It is different when the government does it, and you know it.

They have too much power, and THEY REPRESENT US. We are their employers! They are public servants.

AND, it is illegal. AND the companies that do this have our CONSENT. Our government, when they do it in secret, DO NOT.

[intaglio]

64. So you prefer to be spied on by companies

over which you have no control whatsoever.

[Th1onein]

66. I prefer to give CONSENT and HAVE KNOWLEDGE of the people and the info I give out.

What is it about that that you don't get? CONSENT. KNOWLEDGE. Very imporant difference.

[intaglio]

100. So you have consented to Google passing information about you

To anyone who pays them ...

[Th1onein]

105. When I agree to the terms of their service? You betcha I do.

Unfortunately, my own government doesn't give me the same opportunity to agree or disagree. They've STOLEN, without my knowledge (if it were not for Snowden, I wouldn't know now, my information.

Sorry, but I have a big problem with that. And so should YOU.

[intaglio]

106. And when you first used Google at what point did you sign up to terms of service?

and I'm not talking about Google plus or Gmail, just the ordinary Google search engine.

Tell me, I'd be interested, because you are not offered terms of service any more than if you walk into a store under video surveillance are you told any more than the fact you are being videoed. In that last case do you agree to that video being examined by store personnel? or the by the police? or a private security company? or by researchers looking at crowd movement within the store?

Stop fooling yourself and trying to fool others.

[Th1onein]

108. First of all: "Stop fooling yourself and trying to fool others."

That statement? Does not belong on this discussion forum. Why is it that if you don't agree with someone you have to engage in ad hominem attacks? It really weakens your position in the argument.

Second, I make the CHOICE to enter the store, and I make the CHOICE to use Google as a search engine and/or email. I did NOT make a choice, or give consent, for the government to spy on my email, my texts, or my searches. See the difference?

Finally, if you can't rebut this post without adding an ad hominem attack, you're going on my ignore list.

[intaglio]

110. First the error in your argument

There are activities over which you have no control that, perfectly properly, keep video or digital records.

Do you choose to walk past a store with video recording? I think not.
Do you choose to have your property photographed by satellite? No.
Are you given a choice in it being displayed on Google Earth? No.

There are also activities in which you choose to participate which require records to be made without your consent.

Do you ask for property records to be made?
Do you think vehicle registrations should only be shared with the police with your explicit consent on a case by case basis?
Do you think your sailboat should be tracked by radar only when likely to collide with other vessels?

The use of the internet is in that second class of activities and failure of record keeping would have some unintended consequences

Do you think that destitute Princes should have a choice as to whether their e-mail records are recorded?
Do you think trolls should be allowed to flood your e-mails or message boards with no record of that activity?

Pointing out self deception is not an ad hom but asserting that you were wrong because of some fault in your personal habits or beliefs beyond the matter under discussion would be such an error. Stating that you were wrong in this discussion because you believed in sky fairies would be an ad hom. Disclosing your falsehoods and asking you to cease a behaviour is not.

[Th1onein]

111. Once again, the government is different from commercial interests

The government has POWER over us. They can put us in jail. Take our money. And, nowadays, even torture us, and send a drone to kill us. Google cameras and the people who handle them have no interest in these things. They merely want to sell us something.

As for activities in which I choose to participate in where records are likely to be made, the important word there is, once again, CHOOSE.

I think that ALL people ought to have a modicum of privacy; and ought to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure of those records by their government.

None of your arguments hold water for a very specific reason: It's the same reason we have the Fourth Amendment.

You did not "point out" my "self deception." You called me a fool and accused me of trying to make fools out of others. I have seen you do this to other people on these forums, and there is no sense in it. Please, enjoy your permanent position on my ignore list.

[intaglio]

114. Reading this post it is quite obvious the poster lacks the ability to think clearly

This is not an ad hom but a simple observation based upon the constant harping on about the evils of Government and ignoring even the most basic examples I offered.

Going point by point:

Once again, the government is different from commercial interests

This is only occasionally true has has no bearing on the argument. I pointed out again and again examples where the Government has to keep records without consent. It would be equally easy to give examples where the Government would have the right to demand records containing information about an individual and to so demand without their overt consent, again I gave examples of that

The government has POWER over us.

A statement of the obvious and meaningless in the context of the argument.

They can put us in jail. Take our money.

Yes, and very often that will require them obtaining information without consent; does anyone think the police should be hamstrung when investigating hate crimes by requiring the consent of the target when searching for internet evidence? Should a child pornographer should be asked for his consent to check his posts on closed access websites?

And, nowadays, even torture us, and send a drone to kill us.

Conspiracy nut fodder. Yes US citizens in foreign countries can be hit by drone strikes - when they are found to be enemy combatants. Yes, US soldiers and others have tortured but that act remains illegal - even when approved by the President. The figleaf of legal protection may be small - but it is there.

Google cameras and the people who handle them have no interest in these things

Google may not but there are many groups (beside the US government) who could use those records to damage the interests of individuals without their consent.

They merely want to sell us something.

Google may only want others to sell something but those others, like examples above, may not be so benevolent. I am utterly certain that Google Earth and probably Streetview will have been used by criminals looking for access to valuable property.

As for activities in which I choose to participate in where records are likely to be made, the important word there is, once again, CHOOSE.

Everyone here is choosing to participate in an activity that requires records to be made. What happens to those records (as demonstrated above) is outside their control.

I think that ALL people ought to have a modicum of privacy

Define, where does a "modicum" end? Where does this "modicum" end for a poster on a hate site or for a child pornographer? Where is this "modicum" when your house appears on Streetview?

and ought to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure of those records by their government.

Here the poster actually comes near to the real world, a world where (currently) the case law is that examination of such meta is not an unlawful search.

None of your arguments hold water for a very specific reason: It's the same reason we have the Fourth Amendment

Except that, as case law currently stands, such searches are not unconstitutional.

You did not "point out" my "self deception." You called me a fool and accused me of trying to make fools out of others. I have seen you do this to other people on these forums, and there is no sense in it. Please, enjoy your permanent position on my ignore list.

Oh, goody.

[creon]

37. good

well said

[bullwinkle428]

26. I'm sure MANY have died as the result of the release of this information.

Oh, died of embarrassment doesn't count.

K&R.

[JDPriestly]

34. +1000000

Think of all the bosses of big corporations and law firms who call their associates and secretaries in the middle of the night -- repeatedly.

What would the NSA think?

Worse, NSA would probably draw the wrong conclusions because some people really do work late.

This program is just sick voyeurism. No wonder Snowden decided to stop it.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

29. K&R!

Thanks, Catherina!

[sabrina 1]

31. So who's overseeing the NSA? They apparently have 'their own rules':

In a congressional hearing, NSA director Keith Alexander argued that the kind of surveillance of Americans’ data revealed in that Verizon order was necessary to for archiving purposes, but was rarely accessed and only with strict oversight from Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judges. But another secret document published by the Guardian revealed the NSA’s own rules for when it makes broad exceptions to its foreign vs. U.S. persons distinction, accessing Americans’ data and holding onto it indefinitely.

So no one is watching them and they can make their own rules regardless of whether they violate our laws or not.

This gives a whole new meaning to 'out of control'. So what do we do about it? We elected Democrats already. I am happy with a few of them like Alan Grayson and Ron Wyden, Conyers and Leahy so far. But what happened to all the others we worked hard to elect?

[Catherina]

42. The MIC for the 1%

Did you see my reply here to you? It's related in the bigger scheme. You probably know that information already. Do? Step 1, is to wake up. Step 2, we saw a pretty good start last year.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

33. K&R

[Uncle Joe]

35. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Catherina.

[penndragon69]

38. This PUNK is no better than a terrorist

A wanabe spy who was probably recruited by Chinese or
Russian intelligence right after droping out of high school.

Now he's out to sell his information to the higgest bidder.

The very definition of TREASON !

[mike_c]

41. I recommended the OP in your name...

...LOL.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

51. lol

[carolinayellowdog]

55. treason does have a definition

not even close

[Th1onein]

61. Look up the definition of treason, my friend. Hint: You're wrong.

And no one has ever reported that he's sold anything.

In fact, he left his entire world, his life, everything, in order to tell us about this. You should pray that someday you have the courage and the decency of Edward Snowden.

[ReRe]

39. K&R

Marked so I can refer back to this.. Thanks, Catherina!

[DeSwiss]

46. Outer Party members.....

...only understand Doublespeak. You know, ''Freedom is Slavery'' ''Ignorance Is Strength'' -- that sort of thing. Ya got anything like that? Otherwise, only Awakened people can understand your words.

- But I get cha!


K&R!!!

[center]''Not to enlighten one who can be enlightened is to waste a man.
To endeavor to enlighten one who cannot be enlightened is to waste words.
A wise man wastes neither men nor words.''

~Confucius [/center]

[gulliver]

48. He created public support for everything he revealed.

That's the shame of it. There is now no saying "Snowden revealed X" without lending political support to X. He couldn't get a reputable journalist to take his story. He can't find a country where he is welcome. That should tell you something.

[ZombieHorde]

54. Are there still reputable journalists in the US?

I thought we ran out of those a while ago.

[warrprayer]

49. based on a true story...

[Savannahmann]

52. So long as the Democratic Party ignores the real issue

Focusing on Snowden, we're all going to suffer.

[marions ghost]

56. K&R

thank you

[felix_numinous]

58. If the NSA used their talents

to go after corporate criminals and bankers who extort money from homeowners, those guilty of ecocide, and other white collar criminals doing business with drug cartels-- instead of focusing their stupid machines at average Americans, their budget would start to make sense.

I am no anarchist, I respect those who PROTECT and SERVE--people against abuse, not enabling abuse to thrive.

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. knr --- let freedom ring

[RC]

81. "...let freedom ring" So the NSA can listen in on the call?

For that is what is happening.
I really wonder, in whose employ, those are who defend the NSA and such? Their simple, circular, often talking point arguments come across more as propaganda and spin, than anything. Down playing facts, twisting truths.

One thing they keep pushing is it's legality, no matter how hard it it abuses the Constitution. Do they think the Constitution is just a piece of paper? I thought that went away with bu$h? Didn't we all vote for "Hope and Change"? Did they? I for one did not vote for this change we got. But the people defending the NSA seem to have.
Another is their denigrating the messenger instead of concentrating on his message and the proof of the criminality of our government that he has has exposed and the evil we are visiting on the world with our power hungry paranoia.

[leveymg]

70. Thanks for positing this useful Snowden compendium KNR

[idwiyo]

71. K&R

[BrainDrain]

73. Couple of quick points....

First is Snowden does NOT have 4 laptops full of uber-secret data. That is just bullshit from the same people who want to arrest him and make him disappear.

Second, when I got my clearances I was 19, in the military, and I saw stuff before the president did.

There are literally tens of thousands of people out there who have the ability to see, on a daily basis, super-secret uber-classified material. For their entire careers, which in most cases spans decades and begin when they are either first in the military and then as a civilian or when they come directly out of college. Either way they begin their careers at what some would deem a tender age, late teens or early twenties. If you count all the people who have already retired from the intel community along with those that are still active within it now, that number is probably in the hundreds of thousands.

Out of ALL those people we have 2 that have actively come forward with information that some would consider detrimental to the interests of the government of the US.

In truth, what Manning has done is shed a very bright light on actual war crimes committed by US military personnel. What Snowden has done is shed a very bright light on a surveillance practice that is most definitely in violation of the constitutional rights of nearly every American citizen.

We have folks screaming and yelling that contractors are the problem. They are NOT. They just pay better than the government does, but the difference is only one of who signs their paycheck, Uncle Sam or a CEO, and in most cases it is both.

The hair pulling and chest pounding is all out of proportion to what is actually happening and is meant, IMHO, as a distraction from the real issues at play. It is NOT that we have young people (with or without collage degrees) being granted access to highly classified material.

The real issue is the material itself and what it contains. These people didn't compromise the military capability of the US, or the ability of the US to keep tabs on the world.

They compromised the ability of the US government to hide its crimes, and THAT, at least too many people both in the government and out, is much, much worse.

[think]

77. Interesting post. Thank you for your input. /nt

[Catherina]

82. Thanks for these points

Overall I agree with you but I'm not sure why you're mentioning four laptops here, unless it's just as a mention of how the US propaganda is angering you, because the author didn't mention them. I think there's a lot of horrible propaganda out there too but the 4 laptop thing came from the Guardian's Ewen MacAskill who appears to be working in tandem with Greenwald as he leaked the GCHQ stories, so I wouldn't discount it that quickly. That could be because I've hung around computer geeks most of my life and traveled with them. I once traveled with a guy who traveled 6 of them so I carried three. Since we're on the subject, the US media horribly distorted what the Guardian said. The sentence about 4 laptops was was sloppy to begin with.

As he pulled a small black suitcase and carried a selection of laptop bags over his shoulders, no one would have paid much attention to Ed Snowden as he arrived at Hong Kong International Airport. But Snowden was not your average tourist or businessman. In all, he was carrying four computers that enabled him to gain access to some of the US government’s most highly-classified secrets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-profile

The bullshit about him having 4 laptops full of classified information is, just as you said, sensational bullshit. Besides the NSA has no idea what he has and anyone who's ever set foot an NSA facility knows you can't walk out with laptops or even thumbdrives. How do you even read that sentence by the way? To me "enabled to gain access" implies hacking into the NSA, which would be an even bigger scandal. I honestly don't know why that phrase is even there or what it means. I'm filing it under *sloppy* for now.

The other point I'd like to make is that there are way more than 2 who have come forward with information some, especially the government, considered detrimental to the interests of the government of the US. There are several who are members of the National Security WhistleBlowers Coalition, a few more who are part of the [link: http://www.whistleblowers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=71&Itemid=108|National Whistleblowers Center], and others such as Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe.

I totally agree with you about contractors. Contractors aren't the issue here because the NSA has always used contractors, like when it was scrambling to find Farsi linguists, but privatizing and outsourcing intelligence operations, for profit at that, are an issue.

Thanks for your adding your points BrainDrain. Other than my nitpicking comments above, we agree.

If you haven't listened to the 3-4 videos in the following thread, I highly encourage you to do so. I think you'll find them very interesting with your background: 3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so (excellent information)

Thanks again

[golddigger]

78. I heard Snowden

shaved his balls. That was the deal breaker for me.

[d_r]

80. I haven't said anything about this before

I figure my opinion doesn't really matter.

But this right here:

" A leaked executive order from President Obama shows the administration asked intelligence agencies to draw up a list of potential offensive cyberattack targets around the world. The order, which suggests targeting "systems, processes and infrastructure" states that such offensive hacking operations “can offer unique and unconventional capabilities to advance U.S. national objectives around the world with little or no warning to the adversary or target and with potential effects ranging from subtle to severely damaging.” The order followed repeated accusations by the U.S. government that China has engaged in state-sponsored hacking operations, and was timed just a day before President Obama’s summit with Chinese President Xi Jinping. "

Has nothing to do with spying on US citizens and is treason to disclose.

[hueymahl]

85. Hey, look at this shiny object!

Again, whether Snowden is a treasonous bastard or the second coming of Patrick Henry ("Give me liberty or give me death&quot , it does not matter and is a distraction and part of the talking points of those trying to cover up the widespread systematic violation of the constitution.

Snowden is not the issue. When you try to make it the issue, you become part of the problem. And I am sure that is not what you are trying to do.

[d_r]

86. I understand what you are saying nt

[cynzke]

104. Baloney.

There are plenty of people here talking about the NSA issue. No one is disrupting that or trying to "distract" from it or "cover up" anything concerning the NSA. It is wrong to make that accusation just because you don't like them commenting about Snowden. Most people here are perfectly capable of focusing on more than one issue at the same time. In the string of comments following this thread, did any comments made about Snowden cause any comments about the NSA to disappear. No. Did comments made about Snowden invalidate or distract from the comments made about the NSA. No. If you don't like to see comments about Snowden, skip them. No one is forcing you to read them. No one is trying to distract or detract from the NSA issue.

[Luminous Animal]

88. K&R

[Egalitarian Thug]

91. K&R

[harmonicon]

93. He's revealed nothing that wasn't already known. This entire thing is ridiculous theatre.

News, entertainment... fuck it, we'll combine the two and wind up with neither.

[LynneSin]

94. Thank you! I thought I was the only one who felt this way

What he revealed was pretty much the same stuff I could have found on a Wiki page. We knew that when the Patriot Act was passed (and reauthorized like 3 times) that basic everyday things would be tracked including our phone calls, our shopping history even the books we check out at the library.

When Snowden did his big reveal all I said was like - Really, you just now knew this.

And the fact that the Tea Party is even making a stink about it - trust me if it was GOP in the White House they wouldn't care. They would remind us of things like "Freedom isn't Free blah blah blah'

This whole thing is a joke. As far as I'm concern let Snowden rot in Russia - not like they have any better freedoms there!

[temmer]

98. congratulations - now you're 2 who feel this way

you might email the German government. Maybe you can convince them

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/25/germany-uk-gchq-internet-surveillance

[harmonicon]

107. Thanks, LynneSin.

I'm glad that there are other people on DU who feel the same way about this as I do. I've been avoiding this place lately, because I could guess at the response to this "story" and didn't want to have to see 1,000 threads about it every day. For the most part, the scandal is the same "scandal" we've had for the last 5 years: a black, Democratic president. It's not that I like that the government he heads is spying on everyone, but it's nothing new either.

[arely staircase]

101. helping the chinese, awesome!

nt

[backscatter712]

102. K&R! The real story is not Snowden, but the NSA's violation of our privacy. n/t

[cynzke]

103. More Like

Bigger and lesser stories, but they are BOTH real stories. Just because some choose to comment about Snowden, it doesn't in any way lessen the importance of the NSA violations. But some people view this as a threat, are getting so upset with people who talk about Snowden. Simply skip over those comments, no one if forcing you to read them. But that is not good enough for some people. It seems they don't want people to comment on Snowden at all. In other words....STFU!

[woo me with science]

109. K&R

[sibelian]

112. K+R

[Liberal_in_LA]

113. excellent summary