Snowden is a traitor. He has no moral courage. He should come home and go to prison.

[BlueCheese]

Fine. Suppose all that is true. Suppose John Boehner and Mitch McConnell and Dick Cheney are right about that.

Then what?

Does that mean the massive surveillance program that we now know exists is okay? That it's okay for the U.S. government to collect the record of every single phone call made within the U.S. or to another country? To search this metadata without meaningful judicial oversight? To lie to Congress about it when asked directly?

Does that make it okay for the government to sweep up as much Internet traffic entering and leaving the U.S. as possible, and keep the material it "inadvertently" collects on purely domestic communications?

In the end, what does it matter if Snowden is an angel or a devil? This issue if far greater than any one person, whether that person is Edward Snowden or Barack Obama. This is about what the government of a democracy should and should not be doing in relation to the people it ostensibly serves. This is about much more than personality. This is about our fundamental freedoms and liberties.

[sibelian]

1. .....

...................



OH LOOK! SNOWDEN'S RELEASED A NANO-SWARM OF POLEDANCING ROBOTS!!! THE FIEND!!!

[leveymg]

58. Snowden's Polebots - worse than Hitler and Stalin, put together.

[SummerSnow]

76. Hey! Gort didn't carry off any busty blondes..lol

love the poster though

[bemildred]

2. What, no pony? nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

3. Getting t i r e s o m e..... b l a c k i n g ...... ....ooouuuut.......

[Tx4obama]

4. There are two completely different issues here that should be kept separate

1) Snowden committed criminal acts and should stand trial.

2) As it is now the NSA is operating under the laws enacted by Congress.
If folks do not like the current laws then work to have them changed.

[ZombieHorde]

5. What is the benefit of Snowden standing trial. nt

[hrmjustin]

9. He admitted to committing a crime. They have to put him on trial.

[HardTimes99]

11. Cheney admitted to committing a crime. They have to

put him on trial.

Oh wait . . .

[hrmjustin]

12. I am all for putting Cheney on trial.

[HardTimes99]

14. Who should go on trial first? Let's see: Operation

Shocking and Awful started in 2003 and Snowden leaked in 2013. Oops, there I go looking backward instead of forward and what-not.

[hrmjustin]

16. Well Cheney has the greater sin in my view so I think he could go first.

[HardTimes99]

18. Me too, brother, me too. Torture also happens to be a hell of a lot more serious

than leaking classified information. At least in my moral universe.

[hrmjustin]

21. Cheney is a murderer, Snowden released state secrets.

Snowden will have to answer for what he did, but it is a shame we live in a country that Cheney will not answer for his crimes.

[SoapBox]

44. And if terrorists use the information that Snowden released, to get around security and kill

any American...then I will consider Snowden a "murderer" as well.

Right now he's just a chicken sh*t traitor, who gave the information up to a fool at a MURDOCH organization and that has tried out China, Russia, and is now running off to South America like the Nazis did. He is NOT an American any longer.

...good bye and good riddance forever, Weasel.

[ljm2002]

49. "who gave the information ... to ... a MURDOCH organization"...

...really? What MURDOCH organization would that be? The Washington Post, or the Guardian?

Before you answer, remember: it is easy to look these things up on The Google.

[RC]

50. You were born too late for WWII Nazi Germany, huh?

You think it is OK for our government to conduct wholesale surveillance on its citizens, changing the law to make the illegal legal? Lying to and even by-passing Congress in the process?

Who do you think will speak up for you when they come after you?

Snowden knew what happen to Bradly Manning when he went through the proper channels. Why would or should Snowden allow himself to be subject to the same treatment? No, Snowden is a brave person to stand up and expose the Power the way he did.

[Katashi_itto]

61. +100

[jmowreader]

38. There's more than one judge in this country

In fact, there are enough judges in this country that we could try every evildoer from the Bush Junta, PLUS Snowden, all at the same time!

[ZombieHorde]

30. What happens if they don't? nt

[hrmjustin]

48. Well if they don't catch him there is nothing they can do.

But if they did catch him and did not prosecute it would send a bad message. You could just leak anything without fear of prosecution and that is not good.

[ZombieHorde]

87. Maybe that would be good. Perhaps very good.

If people are hurting other people, then some sunshine may save lives.

[pnwmom]

78. It would be sending the message that people with clearance who leak

don't have to worry about prosecution, even if they do something like leaking thousands of documents to the Chinese and the Russians.

[ZombieHorde]

88. That might a very good message to send.

When a country is engaging in torture and assassinations and secret lists, perhaps those activities need to be brought to light.

[pnwmom]

90. I don't know what planet you're living on, but it's not Planet Earth. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

93. We disagree, so I must be from outerspace. nt

[Whisp]

89. Because he committed a crime

If he was let go like it was a parking violation instead of a possible life and death situation for many agents - then the next dumbass yahoo will want that 15 minutes of fame too and this will never stop.

[ZombieHorde]

92. I am not convinced that the leaks should stop.

Perhaps after we stop torture, indefinite detention, secret lists of possibly naughty people, privacy abuses, etc., we should stop the leaks.

[pscot]

6. Excellent idea

We'll get started as soon as you convince the Great State of Texas to send 25 Democratic reps and 2 Democratic senators to Washington.

[marions ghost]

7. We were NOT given the chance to object

--remember ?--how the law was being carried out was secret. Until now.

Snowden is a whistle blower and a real patriot, unlike people who are happy to analyze and collect data on their fellow citizens--and keep real quiet about it. Those citizens are not patriots. They are cowardly accomplices.

Change the laws as a goal??? Right OK--now because of Snowden--we MAY have a chance to do that .

Before, we were treated like children who "don't need to know" what is being done TO them and in their name.

Snowden should get from anyone who really cares about the future of this country. And don't ask why that's true--it's been more than covered here. We cannot allow this type of data mining to continue.

[DCBob]

22. Just because he exposed things that Americans should probably know about..

that doesn't excuse the crime.

[marions ghost]

25. We should probably not continue to chat

based on your use of the word probably. "things that Americans should probably know about..." Probably?

After the criminal abuses we have suffered under Booshcheney and since (for various reasons--not getting into the Obama quicksand)--I think we have some new definitions of what is criminal and what isn't.

When you dismantle the constitution for your bogus "laws" -- there is no longer "the rule of law" in America. This is an egregious act of governmental and military intrusion. It's about who "owns" the internet.

Where are the laws protecting us?

[Aerows]

31. Abuse of the word Probably

Absolutely.

[DCBob]

32. Sure. Feel free to ignore me.

but as a reasonable thinking citizen.. I not so sure our government is doing anything illegal or egregious regarding this issue.

[marions ghost]

39. Where are the laws protecting us?

You may call it "legal" but we have no real protection. This is an egregious abuse of power. Egregious in every sense of the word.

[DCBob]

40. Not at all egregious if you factor in national security issues.

imo.

[marions ghost]

42. that's what they say...but

I'm not buying.

They think we're stupid.

[DCBob]

45. Im sure no one thinks you are stupid..

perhaps naïve.

[marions ghost]

47. The government has treated the American people as both stupid

...and naive.

yes, important addition.

(I guess you aren't one of the American people--you do seem above us all).

[RC]

55. They changed the law to make the illegal and unconstitutional, legal.

That does not concern you? How does agreeing with what they are doing, make you a reasonable thinking citizen? Why is that not a cause for outrage?

[hueymahl]

64. Have you ever read the 4th Amendment?

While it may not be illegal (yet), it damn sure is egregious almost certainly unconstitutional.

[Hydra]

73. Welcome to DU!

And it IS unconstitutional, which also means it's illegal.

Even the rubber stamp court apparently objected, but we're not allowed to see their dissent. Secret is apparently an in thing now.

[L0oniX]

37. Well thank Eric Holder for permission to "excuse the crime".

[treestar]

51. When they talk about how we have a "right to know"

they are missing the point. Yeah, we do, but the Russians/terrorists/whoever the hell it is are the ones we are hiding it from. That's what we are doing. They refuse to see that.

[Daniel537]

10. Congress isn't going to change shit.

So the only way to fight back is to undermine these criminal laws, which is exactly what Snowden is doing. Good for him for trying to avoid spending the rest of his life in a federal hellhole.

[DCBob]

34. Snowden cant change shit.

If congress doesn't change the laws then the program continues as is.

[RC]

56. Before change can occur, the problem must first be observed and recognized.

That is what Snowden did. He exposed the problem.

[rhett o rick]

13. ANd you know the NSA is operating under the law how? Looks like they are violating the law. Have

you read the law? The law does not allow blanket surveillance. The FISA court isnt authorized to issue blanket warrants. REad the law.

[marions ghost]

26. +++

concur.

[DCBob]

43. How do you know it is not operating lawfully?

The Obama admin has repeatedly said it is following the law, FISA has been upheld in federal courts and SCOTUS has denied cert regarding FISA related cases. At this moment, my money is on its being legal.

[rhett o rick]

60. I hope you are right but I am skeptical. I think it's worth investigation, dont you? nm

[Hydra]

74. False

The Obama admin is lying, and using secrecy to protect it.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/29/ron_wyden_doj_may_have_to_release_fisa_related_documents_demonstrating_excessive.html

The FISA court, despite being basically a rubber stamp, has apparently found them in violation of the law. There's just one problem- the Obama Admin is fighting to keep the ruling secret.

Common sense here- they wouldn't be doing it in secret if it wasn't illegal.

[DCBob]

19. +1

[Andy823]

23. Exactly

Why some can't understand this is beyond me.

I do think Snowden was a pawn in this, and was being used to promote a political agenda. I also think he is figured out this wasn't such a great idea and will do anything he can now to try and find someplace to hide, but I don't think it's going to work. I just hope if he was being used he implicates those who used him for their own benefit.

[tammywammy]

27. +1 n/t

[L0oniX]

36. Were those "laws" made in the public interests?

[Scootaloo]

54. Funny thing...

To change a law, the people have to know it exists. This was not the case here until someone revealed this secret law, and the secret decision that it is constitutional, by a secret court (one would imagine that all the secrecy might hint at it actually not being constitutional, but whatever.) Were it not for this "leaker," we wouldn't know about it, or any number of other "legal" things you think should be challenged.

[mhatrw]

63. Snowden needs to take the full brunt of his punishment.

He needs to serve as another clear example to anyone in government with a conscience!

[progressoid]

70. "If folks do not like the current laws then work to have them changed. "

That's what this whole debate is about. But anyone who mentions it is told they are a racist and/or that Snowden is a traitor. Discussions of current policies and laws are avoided.

[uponit7771]

91. no, they are told that cause they use racist winger memes to attack Obama vs attacking the law...

...as if Obama broke the law.

[Scuba]

8. It's not about Snowden. Good post, thanks.

[Aerows]

15. A pony?

I thought I was due a unicorn and rainbows. But I'm a racist for wanting a unicorn, I realize that. All those cherished ponies would never be enough.

[progressoid]

71. That won't be enough.

Next, you'll want a unicorn farting rainbows.

[PSPS]

17. You can't win an argument when a cult of personality is involved.

Bush had his and its members were rightly derided here on DU (i.e., "Get a brain, morans.&quot

This "Snowden affair" is revealing those who have been ensnared by Obama's personalty cult. To them, anything touching Obama is "OK" no matter what it is, even a state surveillance apparatus that is aimed at its own citizens, including themselves.

It's a belief system so, sadly, you can't reach these people and have to just write them off.

[tblue]

41. Did Clinton have this level of

unconditional support? I really can't remember.

[JoeyT]

80. Good lord yes.

I remember getting into some hellish fights over my opposition to NAFTA and DOMA.

I don't know if his fan club was as big, they may have been, but they were certainly just as devout.

[tblue]

82. I think I was a lot less worried

at the time. I was really young and, after 12 years of Reagan/Bush. I was just SO relieved to have a Democratic POTUS. And, before Bush II and 9/11, I just never thought a POTUS would undermine the Constitution to the degree that W and Cheney and Rove did. A desperation has set in since then; GWBush made it urgent that we do a 180 ASAP. A 30, 60, 90, 120 degree turn would not be enough. It's not Obama's fault that that was what was needed. But I do think the expectation was a hard 180 degree reversal of all of Bush's bad policies. Turns out it wasn't possible for various reasons we all won't agree on. But I think that's what drives the frustration you see posted here. People are scared and feel helpless and exasperated. And no amount of screaming at them will change that.

[treestar]

52. Bullshit

The Snowden followers are the ones with cult of personality oh their hero! And unwilling to consider the security of their own country in their zeal for making some great hero of this guy!

[PSPS]

65. Frankly, I have no interest in "protecting the security" of any surveillance police state.

Let's be honest here. Nothing was revealed that any adversarial state didn't already know. This is all about the fact that the government is engaged in wholesale surveillance of its citizens' every action. When those in power pontificate about how "security has been threatened," they're referring to the security of those in power against those unfortunate to be under their jack boot, not any adversary state.

[RC]

57. +100

Right on, with the emphases on the Right. (Pun intended)

[carolinayellowdog]

20. 19 replies and I can only see 6

something must be broken here

[sibelian]

46. ...

You're not missing much!

[carolinayellowdog]

72. now I see 21 out of 71

seems like this was one of those flypaper threads

[PufPuf23]

24. I hope DU gets your point.

Snowden is irrelevant.

How we treat elected pols and career staff we happen to like and support that have obstructed justice for war crimes and the largest financial crimes in recorded human history?

Snowden is not only irrelevant but he has no large importance except as a distraction from the real issues. Snowden has saved more innocent lives than the drone program, Libya, or Syria since GWB left the Presidency regardless of his motives.

[appleannie1]

28. If our government listened to every phone call we would have 0% unemployment because it would

require millions of people to listen in on the billions of daily calls.

That being said, Snowden is a traitor to this country. A man who puts his own ego ahead of people's lives. And if his motives were so damn pure he would not want to live in Cuba or Venezuela. Besides, who is financing him?

[Romulus Quirinus]

33. You are under-informed about what clever heuristics

and a billion dollars worth of supercomputer can do.

Such a job is quite manageable for a group of well-funded experts in the year 2013.

[creeksneakers2]

66. A computer can only store ones and zeroes

Nothing can be learned from that unless a human listens to it.

[Romulus Quirinus]

68. How do you think audio recordings work? Not trying to be mean.

Unless you're listening to vinyl records, it is stored digitally. Modern voice analysis software can easily transcribe the spoken word into text for later storage, easier analysis, and even flag certain recordings for extra attention by a human.

Welcome to the future.

[appleannie1]

77. And in the end a human either has to listen or read.

[Romulus Quirinus]

83. But they don't have to read everything.

Just what the analysis tools flag, or whatever their internal search engine drags up based on what they ask for. Something that can be handled by hundreds of people, tops.

[creeksneakers2]

85. No matter what search criteria they use

They would have thousands of false positives for every possible hit.

[Romulus Quirinus]

86. I can lead you to water.

I can't make you drink it.

There's nothing you can do prevent what they are doing. I suppose it might be kinder to let you believe what you believe.

[Aerows]

35. Why?

because he told the ugly truth?

A lot of people seem to have a deep and abiding issue with the unvarnished truth being told. Let's tell it. After all, they listen in to ours, lets hear the truth from them, too. Nobody has anything to hide, right?

If you listen in on me, I have every right to listen in on you. Right?

[Hydra]

75. Wow

Way to not be technically savvy

Databases are searchable, with linked variables and can be pulled up with a basic query in seconds. What do you think "The Google" is?

They now have a "Google US citizens" function, and it works very well for targeting people.

[JoeyT]

81. When you use google,

do you think there's a person with an index of the internet that flips through it really really fast and types out all the answers for you?

No one is claiming they're listening to every phone call. We're complaining they're creating a searchable database of metadata. (Well, have compiled and are adding to) This is actually worse than listening to your calls, because in a few seconds they can know everyone you've talked to since the database began, where you were when you talked to them, and how long you talked to them for.

[RC]

59. Till Russia objects to the shooting down one of their planes...

It would be a very big deal.

[leveymg]

62. I like the way you think, young lady. There's a job that's just opened up for you.

Flight Hostess

[creeksneakers2]

67. He van be both a hero and a traitor

I haven't decided if he's a hero or not for his exposure of domestic spying, or his false disclosures about domestic spying. I'm certain though that informing foreign governments about U.S. spying operations on them is traitorous. For that, he belongs in prison for the rest of his life.

[Fire Walk With Me]

69. Stop distracting from the issue of the out-of-control surveillance state.

The neocon Bush/Cheney surveillance state, which Obama is willfully strengthening. THAT is the issue.

[pampango]

79. A traitor to a national government but not to human rights. Which is more important? n/t

[Dr Fate]

84. That is what Obama and Holder say about Cheney the Plame Leaker too.

I'm glad to see that they go after all traitors and leakers with equal words and gusto.