You want "Nixonian"? This, right here, this is Nixonian, if Nixon had grown up in East Germany

[nashville_brook]

The Snowden Effect, Special Sunday Edition
By Charles P. Pierce
at 10:36am


http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/Big_Brother_Takes_A_Government_Job


Sooner or later, we're all going to start paying more attention to the folks at McClatchy than we do to the kidz at Tiger Beat On The Potomac. It was some of them who kept warning us that the Bush administration case for going to war in Iraq was shot through with moonshine and bullshit, but the courtier press got itself dazzled by mushroom clouds, aluminum tubes, African uranium, and Colin Powell, aka The Most Overrated Man In The World, and off to war we went. Now, they've come out with a gigantic story revealing, in detail, that the Obama administration is the most fertile environment for paranoids since the Nixon people first cut a check to Egil Krogh.

President Barack Obama's unprecedented initiative, known as the Insider Threat Program, is sweeping in its reach. It has received scant public attention even though it extends beyond the U.S. national security bureaucracies to most federal departments and agencies nationwide, including the Peace Corps, the Social Security Administration and the Education and Agriculture departments. It emphasizes leaks of classified material, but catchall definitions of "insider threat" give agencies latitude to pursue and penalize a range of other conduct. Government documents reviewed by McClatchy illustrate how some agencies are using that latitude to pursue unauthorized disclosures of any information, not just classified material. They also show how millions of federal employees and contractors must watch for "high-risk persons or behaviors" among co-workers and could face penalties, including criminal charges, for failing to report them. Leaks to the media are equated with espionage.

You want "Nixonian"? This, right here, this is Nixonian, if Nixon had grown up in East Germany. You've got the entire federal bureaucracy looking for signs of "high-risk persons or behaviors" the way Nixon sent Fred Malek out to count the Jews. You've got created within the entire federal bureaucracy a culture of spies and informers, which will inevitably breed fear and deceit and countless acts of interoffice treachery. (Don't like your boss at the Bureau Of Land Management? Hmm, he looks like a high-risk person. Tell someone.) And this is the clincher.

Hammer this fact home . . . leaking is tantamount to aiding the enemies of the United States," says a June 1, 2012, Defense Department strategy for the program that was obtained by McClatchy.

I don't want to hear about "safeguards" because I don't believe in them any more. I don't want to hear about "transparency" any more because the president lost his privileges on that word when he cited the secret rubber-stamp FISA court as the vehicle for transparency last week. I don't want to hear about "oversight" because, really, stop kidding us all. And I especially don't want to hear about how all the administration's really done is "formalize" programs that were already in place, as though giving the creation of a culture of informers the imprimatur of the presidency makes it better. This, after all, is what you're "formalizing," as dramatized on June 13, 1971 by the Oval Office Players, Richard M. Nixon, artistic director:

President Nixon: Doesn't it involve secure information, a lot of other things? What kind of-what kind of people would do such things?
Kissinger: It has the most-it has the highest classification, Mr. President.
President Nixon: Yeah. Yeah.
Kissinger: It's treasonable. There's no question it's actionable. I'm absolutely certain that this violates all sorts of security laws.
President Nixon: What-what do we do about it? Don't we ask for an-
Kissinger: I think I-I should talk to [Attorney General John N.] Mitchell.
President Nixon: Yeah.

No, Mr. Current President, this is not business as usual. This is not even the NSA sifting through e-mails and phone calls. This is giving Big Brother a desk in every federal agency and telling him to go to work.


(snip)

[dkf]

1. Telling us there are whistleblower protections while instituting this program is insulting.

Wow.

[nashville_brook]

3. for reals.

[Buzz Clik]

2. Just a fucking minute. This is spinning into another quantum level of pure stupidity.

Nixon's paranoia was not about national security and threats to the US, it was about loyalty to HIM and threats to his administration.

Sweet Jesus, this is insane.

[nashville_brook]

5. whistleblowing vs leaking -- how does this dynamic not smack of the loyalty trope?

[pscot]

11. You got that right

But it's not Charlie Pearce who's nuts. It's the President's Men, who see every
Amercan as a potential security threat. This is power paranoia run amok.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

12. Are you sure --

that's the Administration's motives aren't, in many ways, the same?

[DirkGently]

78. "When the President does it, that means it's not illegal."

That IS the issue, and that is a direct quote. Moreover, it's the precise position taken by the Obama fundamentalists trying to deflect on every basis from Snowden's girlfriend's pole dancing to racism to Republican plants.

Don't you FUCKING talk about stupidity to this OP, when you're shouting from that side of the goddamned fence.

[nashville_brook]

91. +1

[ReRe]

104. +2

[Zen Democrat]

118. That was a quote from the David Frost interviews a couple of years after resignation.

And everyone laughed. The whole country laughed at Tricky Dick. And don't forget he personally ordered fire-bombings, breaking and entering for medical records to smear Daniel Ellsberg, and all manner of hate and meanness, including ordering journalists to be audited directly from the top to a plant at the IRS.

If you don't know what Nixon did, don't whitewash his crimes. Most of them weren't investigated to spare the American people an even bigger mess. He should have gone to jail but Ford pardoned him for any and all crimes in the past and in the future. How 'bout that?

[deurbano]

88. It's the actual actions we should be most concerned about...

not motivation. A "better" motivation doesn't make a bad action good. (And it's easier to judge actions than motivations... or personalities... or character... etc.)

[JDPriestly]

96. It's a line so thin as to be invisible.

The paranoia is in the administration that allows these kinds of programs to exist in a democratic government. Leaking is a part of democracy. Let it be.

People don't leak things if a) they really believe those things are vital to their own security and the security of the people they love (obviously, Snowden and Manning were disillusioned by what they witnessed in their work and did not believe the secrets they knew were vital to protect themselves and those they loved) b) they feel themselves to be respected in their workplace and they respect others in their workplace (we need to change the dynamics of the workplace so that all employees feel respected and understand which aspects of what they are doing should be kept secret and PRECISELY WHY THEY SHOULD BE KEPT SECRET). Clearly, Snowden and Manning were told to keep things secret that a) probably should not have been secret and b) they believed in their souls, in their consciences, should not have been secret.

Usually people will obey secrecy instructions. I think the reason that Manning and Snowden did not is that they felt that it was their patriotic duty to inform the American people of the unconstitutional and criminal activities to which they were privy. I trust them for those reasons. They were not betraying the country to which they owed the greatest allegiance. They were betraying a criminal cabal within the administration of the country they love.

I hope people understand this.

[ReRe]

105. I do. 100%.

Why don't you turn your reply into an OP Poll?

[NoMoreWarNow]

127. yes, totally

[Uncle Joe]

4. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, nashville brook.

[IDemo]

6. But, "I'm not a crook" Dick Nixon was a crook, and this is all entirely legal

Therefore, it's all moral, ethical, patriotic, and just look at that shine!

[nashville_brook]

8. we're all shiny happy people in our panopticon of love

[DirkGently]

7. "The Insider Threat Program."

President Barack Obama’s unprecedented initiative, known as the Insider Threat Program, is sweeping in its reach. It has received scant public attention even though it extends beyond the U.S. national security bureaucracies to most federal departments and agencies nationwide, including the Peace Corps, the Social Security Administration and the Education and Agriculture departments. It emphasizes leaks of classified material, but catchall definitions of “insider threat” give agencies latitude to pursue and penalize a range of other conduct.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2013_06/surveillance_state_news_snowde045426.php

This is the core issue. Government classifying and pursuing as criminal any revelation of politically inconvenient information.

We knew it was horrendous when Bush was doing it.

The cold reality is that the Obama administration has continued and expanded upon the same authoritarian premise.

It cannot stand.

[nashville_brook]

17. An online tutorial titled "Treason 101" teaches Administration employees to recognize... spies

Did this come out under Bush? No. Does Obama own this? Yes.

An online tutorial titled "Treason 101" teaches Department of Agriculture and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration employees to recognize the psychological profile of spies. A Defense Security Service online pamphlet lists a wide range of "reportable" suspicious behaviors, including working outside of normal duty hours. While conceding that not every behavior "represents a spy in our midst," the pamphlet adds that "every situation needs to be examined to determine whether our nation's secrets are at risk."

When I read this I thought "this is the sort of thing I'd expect under a Rick Scott presidency." Beyond the sheer malevolence of casting all government employees as SPIES, it knee-caps our government's ability to FUNCTION.

This initiative covers all agencies, meaning that there's not one place in our PUBLIC sector where people aren't under suspicion. How can anyone work in those conditions? We know the answer to this -- it's the last gasp of authoritarianism as it collapses into decadence.

[DirkGently]

19. What information, when disclosed, constitutes a crime against "The United States?"

Again and again, we see this attempt to conflate "America" with the interests of the wealthy and powerful. That is not what "America" is. "We" don't need certain leaders in place in South America or the Middle East to provide convenience for business interests. "We" are not harmed when secret government programs regarding spying on the private lives of Americans are revealed.

Conflating those two things -- secrets that protect Americans and secrets that protect political or monied interests -- is the problem progressives always face.

This administration does not recognize it, or worse, believes in the opposite point of view.

Government documents reviewed by McClatchy illustrate how some agencies are using that latitude to pursue unauthorized disclosures of any information, not just classified material. They also show how millions of federal employees and contractors must watch for “high-risk persons or behaviors” among co-workers and could face penalties, including criminal charges, for failing to report them. Leaks to the media are equated with espionage.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2013_06/surveillance_state_news_snowde045426.php

[rwsanders]

68. Where I work, the training ID'd a risky behavior as...

"Disagreeing with the foreign policy of the United States"
Beyond creepy. Those that are defending these programs whether through loyalty to Obama, or thinking it won't affect them are crazy.
All it will take is one vindictive, manipulative supervisor and they are out on the street. There are many who will see these programs as a chance to further their own goals. It is like Afganistan brought home, report an "enemy" and get promoted, whether or not they were an enemy.

[NoMoreWarNow]

121. this is beyond creepy and the worst part is it makes me want to agree with republicans when they see

big government as the problem.

Our state is freaking out of control and seems more concerned with protecting itself than us.

[rwsanders]

135. Well the government is too big, but I wouldn't jump on their bandwagon too soon...

I've been trying to reason out their opposition to "big government" and their addiction to guns to "stand up to the government" and their propensity to vote for bigger government, that includes a bloated military that would overwhelm their little pop-guns in seconds.
I finally have a working hypothesis. The "government" that they hate and want to fight is only the part that provides help and assistance to minorities. They hate the minorities so much it doesn't matter to them that they benefit from some of those same programs.
So the bottom line is that they are really just gearing up for a race war.
We need to find a majority in this country that wants a sane, rational government, but I don't know how we could ever get there.

[NoMoreWarNow]

137. I think that is partly true

I don't know about the race war, but the RWers are definitely racist at some level. But also just poor and uneducated and overly religious, and hate to see "their money" going to helping people they don't like or trust.

I am hoping we are evolving out of their mentality-- it can't happen too soon.

[NYC_SKP]

75. Link please.

Providing original source material.

Would love to see it.

[pscot]

100. It would appear that this is wide spread

And has its origins in the tech industry; think Microsoft's preoccupation with security and copyright.

Insider Threat Workshop

The CERT Program at Carnegie Mellon University's Software Engineering Institute has been researching insider threats since 2002. We have compiled a database containing hundreds of actual insider threat cases. Our insider threat research focuses on both technical and behavioral aspects of actual compromises; our goal is to raise awareness of the risks of insider threat and to help identify the factors influencing an insider's decision to act, the indicators and precursors of malicious acts, and the countermeasures that will improve the survivability and resiliency of the organization

http://www.sei.cmu.edu/training/p76.cfm?wt.srch=1&wt.mc_id=G-cr0166

Course Fees [USD]

U.S. Industry: $1800

U.S. Government/Academic: $1500

[NYC_SKP]

101. I finally found a possible source.

Searched for "treason 101" and NOAA.

http://www.wrc.noaa.gov/wrso/security_guide/intro-3.htm

[ReRe]

107. That's right...

Massive "paranoia" is what we have to fight against. To not trust your fellow worker or your friends, neighbors, employers, even close family members turns us into a totalitarian state. Germany was like this, no? Nobody could trust anyone. Hell, the whole "fear, fear, fear" campaign tells everyone to be aware of what's going on around them and to turn in anyone you feel is "suspicious." I didn't need to be told to do my civic duty, as I've done that all my life and certainly don't need to be told to do so. But the message is to "be suspicious". Can you imagine the fear someone must feel to walk around in this world and be suspicious of everyone you meet or know?

[nashville_brook]

117. conveniently undermines government functions while funding sequestration does its job

of completely killing off our public sector. this is the corporate model that libertarian feudalists have been drooling over for decades -- and it's a Dem president putting it into practice. beyond unacceptable.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

9. Happy to K&R

[ucrdem]

13. Oh joy, Obama is Nixon and Obama is Stalin, all on the same day!

[DirkGently]

15. More truthful than "critics are racists" anyway, eh?

[ucrdem]

18. You'd think they'd coordinate their efforts

but then logic never plays much of a role in this.

[DirkGently]

21. The knee-jerk NSA apologists certainly seem more uniform.

First they tried attacking Snowden for supposedly contributing to a Paul once.

Then they tried smearing his girlfriend for "pole dancing."

Then there was some entertaining nonsense about boxes in his garage and not being a "friendly neighbor."

Then Hong Kong was bad because it's China, sort of. There was a fascinating attempt at a conspiracy theory involving the Bush family and Booz Allen Hamilton being cohorts, that somehow was supposed to add up to Snowden being a rightwing plant. And by "rightwing plant," they literally meant "rightwing plant." Because that's super realistic.

Then the predictable bottom of the barrel stuff equating government criticism while Obama is in office as "racism." Because the ACLU and the Electronic Frontier Foundation are known to be such "racists," you know.

So it'd be a bit rich to complain of "Nixonian" as being unfair at this point anyway. But Nixon was fond of the conceit that "If the President does it, that means it's not illegal."

Which is precisely the crux of the argument being made in defense of NSA spying.

So, unlike all the infantile messenger-shooting attempts regarding Snowden, yeah, I'd say this shoe fits a lot better.

[ucrdem]

31. It's fun to think that this is about some kind of courageous act of whistleblowing.

But it isn't. It's the same old GOP dirty tricksters launching Swiftboat #862 and in the case of Obama, yes, racism is and always has been the magic dust that makes it work every time.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

35. Proof?

Which GOPers are launching this attack? Certainly not McCain, Boehner or Lindsey Graham, they're all in your corner.

[ucrdem]

38. Look up BAH. nt

[nashville_brook]

44. what a lame response! there's either a connection or there isn't.

show us the connection. the fact that BAH exists isn't a connection.

[ucrdem]

48. There are connections aplenty for anyone with eyes. Here's a few to get you started:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023037645

[ForgoTheConsequence]

52. This doesn't prove anything.

Show me proof that the GOP is conspiring with Snowden to target Obama.

[Maedhros]

130. Isn't it strange how requests for evidence

are always ignored or rebuffed? (Not counting the recursive links offered in lieu of evidence by one poster).

[nashville_brook]

58. OMG -- that deserves it's own Alex Jones forum!

bravo!

[ucrdem]

60. Oh that's rich. nt

[DirkGently]

36. Please explain the ACLU's GOP "magic racism dust" to us.

"This dragnet program is surely one of the largest surveillance efforts ever launched by a democratic government against its own citizens," said Jameel Jaffer, ACLU deputy legal director. "It is the equivalent of requiring every American to file a daily report with the government of every location they visited, every person they talked to on the phone, the time of each call, and the length of every conversation. The program goes far beyond even the permissive limits set by the Patriot Act and represents a gross infringement of the freedom of association and the right to privacy."

The ACLU is a customer of Verizon Business Network Services, which was the recipient of a secret FISA Court order published by The Guardian last week. The order required the company to "turn over on 'an ongoing daily basis' phone call details" such as who calls are placed to and from, and when those calls are made. The lawsuit argues that the government's blanket seizure of and ability to search the ACLU's phone records compromises sensitive information about its work, undermining the organization's ability to engage in legitimate communications with clients, journalists, advocacy partners, and others.

"The crux of the government's justification for the program is the chilling logic that it can collect everyone's data now and ask questions later," said Alex Abdo, a staff attorney for the ACLU's National Security Project. "The Constitution does not permit the suspicionless surveillance of every person in the country."

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-files-lawsuit-challenging-constitutionality-nsa-phone-spying-program

The argument you are making is a lie.

[ucrdem]

39. I'm not the ACLU. You need to ask them what their motives are. nt

[DirkGently]

51. No, you need to support your argument with factual information.

The fact is the NSA spying story did not originate with Republicans.

The fact is that Greenwald and the ACLU and Chris Hayes and the Electronic Frontier Foundation are not racists.

The fact is that the universe neither revolves around nor depends upon the political convenience of the Obama administration.

The fact is that Republicans LOVE secretive spying on Americans. They supported Bush when he did it, and precious few are taking issue with it now. Republicans hate checks on police power of any kind, because police power protects the status quo and the rich, and those are the Republicans' constituents.

DEMOCRATS typically support transparency in government and careful public oversight of possible abuses of civil liberties, particularly those pertaining to free speech and the right to disagree with entrenched power.

What are you going to say when President Teabagger is in office? Will you call those demanding transparency and restraint on domestic spying traitors and racists, too?

[ucrdem]

54. Here are some facts and this is my last kick of this delightful specimen:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023037645

[DirkGently]

55. So sorry to see you go. Thanks for your support!

[appal_jack]

112. No, you definitely are NOT about civil liberties at all, are you? k&r, n/t

[nashville_brook]

115. partisanship over principles is definitely not an ACLU value

[nashville_brook]

40. talk about adding to the hilarity. got a link for that?

where's the evidence that extraordinary claim that the GOP is behind Snowden? you'd think that would be plastered all over the news.

[ucrdem]

47. It's been plastered all over DU since WaPo Guardian launched this baloney. Start here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023037645

[Maedhros]

131. Nothing in your linked post

explains how the GOP is behind the leaks, ergo it is poor evidence for your assertion.

[nashville_brook]

56. it's fun to think being a true partisan believer is some kind of courageous

but instead it's just sad.

[nashville_brook]

22. if not for true believers, there would be neither Stalin nor Nixon

[ucrdem]

24. Thank you for adding to the hilarity. nt

[nashville_brook]

37. and to you.

[DirkGently]

42. Hilariously impossible to refute, you mean.

Otherwise, you'd be positing some kind of rationale, rather than this drive-by nonsense.

[ucrdem]

49. Refute this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023037645

[DirkGently]

53. I'm not fetching your links. Make an argument here, if you have one.

[ucrdem]

57. Okay, you want facts, but you won't read them. Fail. Gotta go, have fun. nt.

[DirkGently]

62. Once again, if you have an argument, feel free to MAKE IT.

[ReRe]

108. DG, I did check out his link and all it is....

... is a link to a conversation among the "loyalists," i.e those who think that anyone who criticizes PO in any way is racist. You're NOT missing anything.

[DirkGently]

110. Thus the declined invitation to argue here. Thanks.

[Maedhros]

132. I think this is the argument:

1. Snowden released information on the UK spying on the Russian delegates to the G8.
2. Obama had a meeting with Putin.
3. ???
4. Everything Snowden has done is part of a Republican plot to destroy the President.

All the proof is RIGHT THERE under Item 3!

[frylock]

123. it's whitehouse.gov copy+paste..

don't bother.

[nashville_brook]

61. more Alex Jones tinfoilery.

[ucrdem]

63. Oh? And what would you call this noble effort?

[DirkGently]

73. "A citation to a thoughtful article containing actual information?"

[cantbeserious]

16. K&R

eom

[suffragette]

20. It's reminding me more and more of the film Brazil

Some of the propaganda posters from that film like, "Don't suspect a friend, report him" and "Suspicion Breeds Confidence" fit right in with initiatives like the Insider Threat Program.

[nashville_brook]

25. i keep thinking of the office setting in that movie

with the listening devices and steampunk vibe. it's very contemporary in a strange way.

[suffragette]

64. Yes, and the ongoing surveillance

And the possibility of a life being destroyed if the power of that comes to bear on someone, even through an error such as that with Tuttle and Buttle.

[IDemo]

30. We've even got the same governmental agencies now:

Ministry of Information Services - NSA, CIA, FBI

Ministry of Information Retrieval - Guantanamo Bay.

[suffragette]

66. Scary to emulate such a dystopia

[steve2470]

23. this grabbed my attention:

The Department of Education, meanwhile, informs employees that co-workers going through "certain life experiences . . . might turn a trusted user into an insider threat." Those experiences, the department says in a computer training manual, include "stress, divorce, financial problems" or "frustrations with co-workers or the organization." An online tutorial titled "Treason 101" teaches Department of Agriculture and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration employees to recognize the psychological profile of spies. A Defense Security Service online pamphlet lists a wide range of "reportable" suspicious behaviors, including working outside of normal duty hours. While conceding that not every behavior "represents a spy in our midst," the pamphlet adds that "every situation needs to be examined to determine whether our nation's secrets are at risk."

Disturbing.

[DirkGently]

26. In other words, dissidents. Boat rockers. Democrats.

Disturbing, indeed.

[steve2470]

29. yes

"Undesirables", of all types.

Joe McCarthy is smiling in his grave. Sorry folks, I'm a loyal Dem since 1976 but this sucks.

[DirkGently]

33. I don't get how Dems can suddenly identify with secretive power structures.

They've never been on our side. Being liberal / Democratic / progressive is supposed to mean (I thought) a distrust of the empowered, whereas conservatives / Republicans / assholes distrust the disempowered.

They punch down. Down on hippies, down on the poor, down on the leakers and the tattletales and the dissident shouters. The FBI spied on MLK, John Lennon, Democratic Headquarters. This is not new. This is not about one person. This is about how secret power is always a constraint on progress and equality and fairness.

We punch up.

[steve2470]

41. totally agree

The surveillance state has grown way too large and too intrusive. This latest revelation chills me to the core. I'm waiting for people to justify it.

We need to have a very public and very frank discussion of terrorism and its real causes in this country, and get back to pre-911 government functioning. I'm yet to be convinced that we MUST have this massive surveillance state to keep us safe.

[DirkGently]

45. They're not even trying to justify it. They're screaming "racists!"

instead.

Sad, really.

[dkf]

32. Department of Ag and NOAA? Treason? WTH?

Now this is kind of scary if they know some thing about Monsanto perhaps or GMOs and can't tell the public. Is this fascism where the government and certain corporations are intertwined?

[DirkGently]

65. That's always been the danger in the U.S.

All the worst we've ever done as a nation has been at the behest of monied interests. The whole "PNAC" manifesto embraced by the architects of the Iraq war was the U.S. should "project its military power" to further corporate interests.

The same people, with the same reasoning, naturally think it's a fine idea to utilize government surveillance to enhance and protect power and wealth.

It's not a stretch or a conspiracy. It's the history of power dynamics in America. Banana Republics in South America. Iran / Contra. All the CIA fuckery we've ever seen.

Government power is abused to further powerful interests, and those opposed are quickly labeled "traitors" and threatened with prison.

It SHOULD be the thing small and large "d" Democrats should be most concerned about.

[NYC_SKP]

74. Looking for a link to any page more than a month old..

To any of this language.
No success.

[steve2470]

77. my excerpt is from the article

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/Big_Brother_Takes_A_Government_Job

He is quoting a McClatchy article

[NYC_SKP]

81. Yes, but...

Excerpts are from "Treason 101".
I'm looking for the alleged source of these.

On an ipad...

[steve2470]

82. oh, maybe it's on an intra-office LAN

only thing I can think of

[NYC_SKP]

85. I did find this:

http://www.wrc.noaa.gov/wrso/security_guide/intro-3.htm

And

http://www.wrc.noaa.gov/wrso/security_guide/

:

[A Simple Game]

95. The following quote says a lot.

"every situation needs to be examined to determine whether our nation's secrets are at risk."

So who does the examining? Surely not the supervisor, they are not trained for it nor I would assume are they to be trusted with the evaluation. So does this get kicked up to the NSA? Probably? So the NSA or some contractor working for them starts spying on an American citizen because they did the dastardly deed of voluntarily working some overtime?

[MisterP]

97. the enforcers are actually always those in the hottest seat: a self-consuming system can produce

great extremes of behavior (see: Yagoda and Yezhov)

some say that Snowden's Paul-admiration discredits him, but in my analysis that shows that they're packing these enforcers with right-of-center ideologues, encouraging group- and doublethink

[DirkGently]

129. Right. Kind of double-edged to argue Snowden's a RW ideologue.

or a "bad neighbor" or whatever ... if that's true, why are such people packing NSA security clearances?

[forestpath]

27. K&R

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. Yep. Complete with lies, CYA statements, and the pursuit of the whistle blower.

[nashville_brook]

34. have you noticed global media refers to Snowden as "whistleblower"

while US media refers to him as "leaker." doubleplusgood for cocktail journalists.

[shawn703]

43. I believe an extension of Godwin's Law is warranted

To cover comparisons to Nixon and Watergate.

[DirkGently]

70. It wouldn't apply where there is an actual parallel.

Comparing something that isn't Nazi Germany to Nazi Germany is often off base.

Comparing a U.S. President to another U.S. President who embraced a radical view of Executive power is much harder to write off as hyperbole.

I don't believe the OP mentioned "Watergate." But "Nixonian" is properly part of the American vocabulary in debating the notion that "If the President does it, that means it isn't illegal."

That IS actually what we are talking about here. Not genocide. Not taking over Europe, no. But the view that the Executive can make its own rules, conduct its own oversight, decide Constitutionality on its own, and savage those who expose wrongdoing as "Enemies of State?"

No, that's a real thing, and we really have it here, right now. Ask Thomas Drake. Ask Bradley Manning. If this isn't "Nixonian," why isn't it?

[Zen Democrat]

93. Ask President Kennedy. Oh yeah, he was murdered in the street at midday for opposing war power.

Now, only the ways and means are new.

[nashville_brook]

94. and they thought they had a new internet meme!

DirkGently FTW.

[stevenleser]

102. Good point. I think Godwin's law is really implied anytime one compares someone to a

horrific past leader unless its easily proven that the comparison is not hyperbole.

In the case of Nixon, Obama is specifically respecting a law enacted after Nixon to prevent Nixonian abuses.

Hence, the OP is hyperbole and qualifies as a variation of Godwin.

[Maedhros]

133. The problem with Godwin's Law

is that Nazi Germany, along with Stalin's Soviet Union and Pol Pot's Cambodia, is pretty much the top of the A list when it comes to modern repressive states. These states set the bar really high when it comes to repression and brutality. It's hard to use any of these states in a comparison because their acts were so horrific.

However, there are definitely elements of the development of the Nazi state that have been paralleled by subsequent governments - the use of multimedia state propaganda, for one. It is useful to refer back to Nazi Germany as a cautionary tale, to understand how the German people came to embrace a totalitarian government. Comparing a policy or behavior of a current government with a similar policy or behavior of Nazi Germany can be constructive. For example, comparing a government's system of secret laws prosecuted in secret courts with a similar policy in Nazi Germany does not assert that the government is also committing a Holocaust. It just asserts that secret laws are bad.

Godwin's Law is essentially a straw man argument, which intends to invalidate an argument by accusing it of hyperbole.

[HardTimes99]

46. We have met the enemy and it is . . . us (Pogo) - nt

[Iliyah]

50. GOPer propaganda at its finest

Logic DIVIDE and CONQUER

My GOSH, on and on and on bullshit on this board.

[ucrdem]

59. Yes. nt

[JoeyT]

67. As opposed to your thoughtful and incisive comment.

Which neither offers facts nor attempts to refute points. Just more complaining that people disagree with you.

If the GOP is so hellbent on this scandal, why are so many of them, the vilest of the bunch, at that, coming out in support of Obama?

[frylock]

124. they must be 11th-dimensional chess masters as well

[DirkGently]

72. Do you have a response to the substance of the OP?

The NSA / domestic surveillance scandal is not a Republican issue.

[nashville_brook]

89. but...it's racism! it's a GOP plot! it's a bird it's a plane...it's Super Strawman!

[DirkGently]

92. If there's a GOP plot, it would be to keep all this going

... until President Rubio or President (gulp) Ryan ascends to power.

Which begs the question, "Who here thinks 'we're being totally careful with your privacy' will be a satisfactory response then?"

[nashville_brook]

116. the inconvenient truth about civil liberties is that while folks might trust Obama like a brother

he's not president for life, and in reality these policies empower the intelligence agencies that answer to no one.

[deurbano]

80. Charles Pierce?

[nashville_brook]

84. what the true believers will always fail to recognize,

is that there's partisanship in the principles put forth here. we either live under the Constitution or we don't.

the dividing and conquering that's happening right now is between us and our neighbors, co-workers and family members who are being asked to look at EVERYONE with suspicion.

so -- you're half right. which in this case means nada.

[sibelian]

138. So, you don't actually refute it.

You paint it with a nebulous "GOP" label.

[WillyT]

69. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Ichingcarpenter]

71. kick ..didn't see this post

on the subject

I don't like dupes so I deleted mine.

Which was titled

WTF?

[nashville_brook]

114. wtf indeed.

[stevenleser]

76. Hilarious hyperbole. The only thing this will achieve is to scuttle dialogue on this issue.

No one is going to take this nonsense seriously.

[DirkGently]

87. I take it seriously. So, you're wrong. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

98. Hey speaking of hyperbole did your coworker Rachel ever come up with that

big scoop you were touting the other day? Or was that just more right wing nonsense from your 'debate partner'?

[stevenleser]

99. I posted it. It's up to you to decide. I'm not responsible for other journalists' claims or what you

think of them.

Nice try... not

[Octafish]

79. If we have a free press, that only helps the enemy.

Who, of course, are We the People.

[nashville_brook]

83. down with the tyranny of a free press!

yargle. bargle.

[DirkGently]

86. The broad-brush smearing of journalism is a rightwing idea.

It's disappointing to see it here so often. I don't mean when the press it gets it wrong, or when it's co-opted, or when the Fox Network perverts journalism into wide-open, proud propaganda.

But there is real journalism in the world. There are real reporters. And there is a reason we protected the press in the very First Amendment.

And yet so many seem willing to buy into the idea that it is now "espionage" for someone to reveal embarrassing information about our own government's activities.

That's not how it's supposed to work. People aren't supposed to be afraid of embarrassing the government.

The government is supposed to be afraid of embarrassing its people.

[DLevine]

90. K&R. nt

[hfojvt]

103. this is strange stuff

coming from the guy who said Obama was so awesome because he ignored his critics and supporters on the left.

Maybe Pierce only supports the President when the President is giving tax cuts to the rich.

[NoMoreWarNow]

122. Pierce has written a lot on Obama, and I don't think he has been uniformly positive at all

In any case, this program sounds terrible.

[hfojvt]

125. I was thinking of this nonsense

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022237431

"In short, the more things that Barack Obama did that angered his liberal base, the more the conservatives convinced themselves that he was setting up an elaborate plot to cater to that same base over his second four years in office. "

...

"That is the challenge of his second term. It is, to borrow a useful verb from a president currently packing them in at your local octoplex, to disenthrall the country, including all of us, and including himself most of all, from the nonsense of the quiet past that is inadequate to the stormy reality. We can think anew. He can act anew. And, by God, he might have a chance to save the country. "


Obama was gonna save the country.

Now, he's gonna turn it into East Germany.

Maybe Pierce is either hyping in one direction or in another direction. Things are either really awesome to him, or else really scary.

But I don't understand why THIS TOO does not fit the pattern of "save the country by angering your liberal base" that Pierce seemed to believe in before.

[NoMoreWarNow]

128. well, I really doubt (at this point) that Obama is doing anything just to anger his liberal base

though I can't rule that out either

I know I'm not alone in thinking Obama is not a real liberal (though he talks amazingly like one sometimes), and I really worry about his ultimate motives.

I think Charlie Pierce is a funny and sometimes astute commentator, but he's hardly the go-to guy for in-depth analysis.

[WillyT]

106. Kick !!!

[ReRe]

109. K&R

Thanks for the OP, nashville_cat, er, I mean Nashville_brook

[nashville_brook]

113. :)

[jsr]

111. Great article

[madrchsod]

119. i thought 1984 would be fully implemented under a republican president but i was wrong

it became reality under a democratic president who received more popular votes and electoral college votes than anyone.

i guess ..."there`s no hope, no reasoning, on this rainy day in june"

[nashville_brook]

120. if this is allowed to continue, it will be "fully implemented" beyond imagination

[Maedhros]

134. In Frank Herbert's "Dune"

House Harkonnen was granted control of the planet Arrakis, the only place in the universe that produced the spice necessary for interstellar travel and trade.

Baron Vladimir Harkonnen dispatched his nephew Glossu "Beast" Rabban to Arrakis with instructions to rule with an iron fist, to oppress and enslave and abuse the native Fremen. According to his plan, after an extended period of brutal rule by the Beast, the Baron would replace him with his other nephew - the dashing and eloquent Feyd Rautha - who would be welcomed as a savior by the oppressed Fremen. The truth was that the Baron would be the real ruler the entire time.

Like his protagonist, Paul Atreides, Herbert was quite prescient. We had our eight years of Beast Rabban, now we've got our Feyd Rautha. What we need to do is get rid of the Baron.

[NoMoreWarNow]

126. but I learned here on DU that Obama was not conducting any "war on whistleblowers"?

how can this be???

[TheKentuckian]

136. Pretty damned scary.

Absolutely chilling.