The ACLU message isn't going to help Snowden.

[ProSense]

President Obama: Guarantee due process for Edward Snowden

Edward Snowden risked everything to expose the secret NSA spying program of our calls and emails. On Friday night we learned what shape those risks would take—in a late news release the Obama Administration hoped we wouldn’t notice.

Now he’s been formally charged with violating the Espionage Act—the same law used to charge Bradley Manning, who provided information to WikiLeaks.

By bringing to light information that the powers-that-be would rather keep secret, whistleblowers like Snowden play a fundamental role in our democracy. We can’t just let them be thrown into darkness.

As the Department of Justice moves in on Snowden, we need to raise our voices to ensure that Snowden is treated fairly and legally, and that the massive abuse of government power, that he risked his safety to expose, finally comes to an end.

To President Obama,:

We stand opposed to any attempt to treat Edward Snowden as a traitor. Our government must also not pursue the case against him outside the ordinary course of American justice. He is entitled to the rule of law and constitutional protections that so many before us died to defend.

Snowden is innocent until proven guilty before a court of law and he must be afforded all of his rights as an American citizen. If he is brought to an American court, he must be afforded every opportunity to defend himself and convince a judge that what he did was justifiable and patriotic, even if he is charged with violating laws that themselves pose a threat to our democracy.

Finally, we say as Americans that we are tired of seeing liberty sacrificed on the altar of security and having a handful of lawmakers decide what we should and should not know. We are tired of living in a nation governed by fear instead of the principles of freedom and liberty that made this nation great.

https://www.aclu.org/secure/president-obama-guarantee-due-process-edward-snowden?ms=taf_acluaction_snowden_130622

First, Snowden isn't a "whistleblower." Secondly, the situation is still unfolding. Thirdly, there is no indication that he will be treated "unfairly." He broke the law, and there will be due process.

Snowden spy row grows as US is accused of hacking China
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023068908

Snowden is going to be prosecuted.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023068663

[Vinnie From Indy]

1. What? Are you losing your edge?

What about Snowden hating puppies or leaving the toilet seat up? When will you get around to those aspects of the NSA story?

Cheers!

[11 Bravo]

23. ProSense stated facts and provided links. Pity you can't handle that without resorting ...

to juvenile strawmen. I will, of course, apologize when you source your "hating puppies" and "toilet seat" sophomoric crap ... you know ... just like ProSense sources every fucking thread she ever posts.
(And you would be astounded if you knew where I stand on the entire Snowden affair, but I'm just tired of reading simplistic horseshit spewed by those on either side of the issue.)

[leveymg]

32. Maybe, but the OP misses the central and obvious reason why talk of prosecution is meaningless

When the US has applied enough pressure, Snowden will simply ride a ferry to the Mainland. He'll never serve a day in jail, so all this talk of prosecution and conviction of crimes is meaningless.

[pnwmom]

67. You mean, ProSense didn't mention what Snowden obviously planned to do all along?

She sticks to facts rather than to speculation.

But I agree with you -- he belongs to China now.

[leveymg]

79. Yes, which pretty much cancels the celebratory ovation about his prosecution.

It's speculation to assume there ever will be a trial, don't you think?

[pnwmom]

120. Who's celebrating? n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

66. Speaking of horseshit!

What I have found to be true is that Prosense and her dreaded blue linkies are full of shit! Nine time out of ten her links are simply to another thread where she offered the same bullshit as on the current thread. Linking to nonsense and a repeat of the same argument is not sourcing. In fact, her modus operandi is to post links as a substitute for debate. Rather than make her points, she wants others to wade through page after page of nonsense and BS. That is not argument nor is it debate.

As for her serial attacks on Snowden and offering that DU'ers are racist if they challenge this president and his broken campaign promises regarding the security state, well that is just sad.

As for your position on the issue, what am I supposed to do guess? Post it if you feel it would be relevant.

So yeah, I guess we are both tired of the busllshit!

Cheers!

[Logical]

72. She has 6 posts on the 1st page concerning Snowden. A little overkill I would say. And bizarre. n-t

[adric mutelovic]

93. "Snowden isn't a "whistleblower." is a fact? I thought it was Prosense's opinion

Just saying.

[uponit7771]

105. +1

[patrice]

130. Oh my goodness!! THANK you! nt

[backwoodsbob]

2. what part of innocent until proven doesn't click?

I think Snowden is a hero

[Skidmore]

10. Hero status has nothing to do with

due process afforded all citizens under the law. He will receive due process at the culmination of which his innocence or guilt will be decided by either a judge or a jury of his peers.

[backwoodsbob]

19. agreed

and guilt won't be settled until he is tried either

[Monkie]

21. all citizens? i think i can name a citizen that was not, maybe one or two more

sadly those days are gone.
that america is a dream that is passed, i think you might be a little drowsy still.
when the drowsiness passes maybe you can head over to cuba to check on those poor men who got "stuck there on holiday" long after they should of gone home. was it 60 or so that have been there "by accident" all these years. some things over due with that process?

[Th1onein]

46. He will receive due process AFTER he is subjected to rendition and torture.

Yep, because that's how the US treats whistleblowers these days. Proof of that? Bradley Manning.

[pnwmom]

69. I think the ACLU is hyperventilating. The US hasn't given any indication

that Snowden won't be afforded the normal protections at trial, including the presumption of innocence. However, he has shot himself in the foot with his multiple pronouncements of "I did it!"

[The Link]

3. I'll take the opinion of the ACLU over this centrist BS any day.

"First, Snowden isn't a "whistleblower.""

[ProSense]

6. Actually,

"I'll take the opinion of the ACLU over this centrist BS any day."

...it isn't "centrist BS." I agree with the ACLU on a lot of things. I don't agree with them on Citizens United or the claim that Snowden is a whistleblower.

[The Link]

7. Rightwing BS then?

[ProSense]

8. Call it whatever, it's a fact. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Snowden revealed that Clapper lied to Congress

That's one whistle he's blown. No, you're wrong; it's far from a 'fact' that he isn't a whistleblower.

[ProSense]

13. Nonsense. n/t

[Monkie]

22. thats not true, last count it was clapper lied, mueller lied and obama lied.

thats 3 whistles, and he still has not ran out of air

[struggle4progress]

121. It's a little premature to decide "whistle-blower" is the proper term, isn't it?

Snowden is reportedly now staying at a government safehouse in China

[flamingdem]

4. Did an intern write this? It seems very amateurish for a legal matter.

Are they pandering to the uneducated by using vague emotional terms. "We are tired" "governed by fear" when did the Paulbots sub 100 IQ people join the aclu anyway...

"Finally, we say as Americans that we are tired of seeing liberty sacrificed on the altar of security and having a handful of lawmakers decide what we should and should not know. We are tired of living in a nation governed by fear instead of the principles of freedom and liberty that made this nation great."

[okaawhatever]

17. It's an email campaign. It appears you sign it and then maybe donate money. It appears

to be from the ACLU foundation which is I guess their fund raising arm, or action arm.

[flamingdem]

24. It's dumbed down. That's a bad sign. They're making an emotional

appeal instead of a logical appeal. This points to the fact that they don't have the facts. Thus, they shouldn't venture into these waters if they want to be taken seriously.

What happens if Snowden defects to China? Oh, then they'll say "it was just the action arm of the Aclu" .. what!?

[okaawhatever]

30. Agreed. It's beneath them. They may need money like everyone else. Maybe they're doing the

"The gov't is coming to get your guns!!!!" approach that the right uses so effectively.

[Th1onein]

49. Oh good grief.

If they're making a plea for money, they should gear it to the lowest common denominator.

As for the facts? They've got the facts.

[Cha]

73. Then the ACLU damn well better

help get those elected that won't make them so "tired".

That's how it works.

Yeah, it does seem like they're pandering to an ignorant mob.

[treestar]

5. Is there some reason to think he would not get due process?

They sound like they need reassurance in this case. What about everyone else charged with a crime?

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. The treatment of Manning is a reason to think that (nt)

[Life Long Dem]

82. Bullshit

Manning and his supporters claim that he was held in inhumane conditions in Quantico, but his lawyer, David Coombs, said he was not tortured or mistreated.

https://piperbayard.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/bradley-manning-the-facts-amidst-the-fury/

While Manning was not tortured, Miklaszewski’s sources say, he was improperly put on suicide watch for two days last week.

And why he was naked.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/01/27/dod-press-office-scrambling/

If Manning was tortured, then there are thousands of inmates in the US right now being tortured. About 80,000 in fact.

There are 80,000 Americans currently held in solitary confinement.

http://www.askmen.com/entertainment/special_feature_400/483_solitary-confinement-5-things-you-didnt-know.html

[stevenleser]

108. The military is a bad place to go if you are going to break the law.

They make that clear during basic training and any officer training you might go for. If you are going to do that, do it in the civilian world.

You are going to be uncomfortable if you get arrested for something in the military. Bank on it.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. On Obama and prisoners and those he'd take prisoner....

The President has many times, at length and with a somber piety proclaimed that he is a devout, Bible based Christian who prays daily and consults Scriptures constantly. He often explained this faith was why he opposed my rights and thought I was less than an actual human being, legally, so I take his preachings very seriously.
The person that Obama says sacrificed his own life to cleanse Barack of all his sins stated that He Himself is each prisoner, and that which is done to any prisoner is done to Him, to the guy who died for Mr Obama.
So I find it to be a special, filthy sort of hypocrisy to post this contempt for decent treatment of prisoners. After the Rick Warren show and the Sanctity of McClurkin and all that sneering and preaching from the Chief Executive it seems that in the end, that faith is given no respect, it is not believed, nor lived by, nor acknowledged. Unless it's about teh gay of course.

[ProSense]

16. Bizarre. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

27. it requires a heart to understand

clearly you Centrists have neither. It is a spectacle to behold.

[ProSense]

28. No,

"it requires a heart to understand clearly you Centrists have neither. "

...it's bizarre, and so is that. People who think bizarre rants are bizarre are not "Centrists"?

[The Link]

39. Your obsession with Snowden is bizarre.

[ProSense]

43. No,

this is bizarre: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3069921

[The Link]

47. What, thinking that Obama would not step down?

Or thinking that the guy who forced Obama to evolve from homophobia would be better?

[Bluenorthwest]

53. The spectacle of Centrist Hypocrisy is hilarious, absurd, definitive

Let me tell you this, Pro. This thread is a whole different level of low for you. I am sure you don't get it.

[ProSense]

54. "This thread is a whole different level of low for you."

Your posts are weird.

[wandy]

11. Were I him, I would be more worried about Booz Allen Hamilton or any other.........

element of the M.I.C. who's profits I might impact.
These folk will not trouble themselves with the niceties of extradition treatys or diplomacy in general.
If in fact his background was not checked correctly that would be an embarrassment for Booz Allen Hamilton and may affect future contracts.

Like F-135s and $436 million in unnecessary tank upgrades there is money to be made in IT.

[flamingdem]

15. Too late. Booz is only interested

in making billions of dollars anyway. Anything to complicated or expensive wouldn't fly with their board.

[cali]

18. you have a very

bizarre thing for Snowden.

How many ops on this guy have you posted? 50? More?

It's way past weird at this point.

Says a lot about how your mind works.

[ProSense]

25. I think

you have a very bizarre thing for Snowden.

How many ops on this guy have you posted? 50? More?

It's way past weird at this point.

Says a lot about how your mind works.

...you're projecting: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3069303

[cali]

29. so how many Snowden ops have you posted? 50? 100?

what are you aiming for?

yes, it's bizarre and a reflection of something very odd.

you are spamming the board with one snowden op after another. dozens of them.

Who does that?

[Aerows]

33. She and treestar need to form a support group

it's gotten ridiculous.

[cali]

45. no kidding. it's kind of... unsettling

as a reflection of the op.

[CakeGrrl]

107. Oh, FFS - hide thread if it freaks you out to see them.

I laud her for doing the work to post another viewpoint - she's doing the heavy lifting.

If you don't like dissenting opinions, too bad.

But the high-school gang-up is childish.

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. Not to mention a certain Dem from Cali. n/t

[flamingdem]

55. You know you luv me

LONG LIVE AMERICA!

[cherokeeprogressive]

88. Oh but I do!

Is it hot down there? It's 72 up here right now, after a high of 74. God I love this place.

[flamingdem]

95. me too. Impossible to get depressed with perfect weather

CA lives up to the hype, for the most part. It's 71 ish here and breezy. No need for AC. Democrats all over the place. No place I'd rather be. We're lucky compared to say Floridians, they're broiling now and dealing with Rick Scott, etc.

[treestar]

101. people who don't agree with you really bug you, don't they?

why can't we talk about whatever we want to talk about. Hide the thread.

[ProSense]

34. Go count them. I'll be posting more to keep you busy. n/t

[cali]

42. nah, don't need to count them. just want to remind folks that

you're bizarrely dedicated to churning out dozens of anti-Snowden posts.

[ProSense]

56. Here's another

NYT: Snowden "staying in an apartment... controlled by the Hong Kong government’s security branch"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023070190

"nah, don't need to count them. just want to remind folks that"

You appointed yourself town crier?

[treestar]

102. Interesting that they don't want it talked about

You're talking about it too much! That bothers his fans, I guess. Too much scrutiny and he might be another disappointment.

[Demit]

57. And most of her "links" go back to her own posts.

Maybe she's going for some kind of "Number of Times Viewed" trophy.

[ProSense]

78. Sue me! n/t

[galileoreloaded]

90. i think it's solipsism run amok. nt

[Demit]

114. Definitely a Pay Attention to MEEE thing going on.

Well, after it's all over, she'll have her collection of nonsensical threads to look back on.

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. 62, as of this moment, in the 'Main' forums

I haven't checked the Topic groups.

[cali]

76. wow. that's impressive..... and weird.

[ProSense]

77. You know what's "weird"?

That you think I have "62" current threads on Snowden.

[cali]

87. I guarantee you that I'm not even close to being the only one who thinks

your, er, devotion to all things Snowden, is passing strange.

[ProSense]

89. I don't care. In fact

"I guarantee you that I'm not even close to being the only one who thinks your, er, devotion to all things Snowden, is passing strange."


...I think silly comments like the above are hilarious

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3070699

[cali]

92. your behavior says otherwise

doesn't seem at all like you actually think it's hilarious. looks far more like you're angry.

[ProSense]

96. You really need

"your behavior says otherwise doesn't seem at all like you actually think it's hilarious. looks far more like you're angry."

...to put away that mind-reading machine and stop projecting: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3069303

[cali]

98. no mind reading required.

[treestar]

103. it's the latest issue!

for crying out loud! everyone is obsessed with it!

[muriel_volestrangler]

124. That's the number of OPs you have posted about Snowden

They date back to June 9th. They're all in GD; your peak day (in the UK time zone) was Monday, in which you posted 12 threads about Snowden.

If you can't believe you've posted that many, then perhaps you have a problem you need to recognise. I'll post the list, if you want.

[Progressive dog]

20. Did someone hack the ACLU website

to post that petition?
"Finally, we say as Americans that we are tired of seeing liberty sacrificed on the altar of security and having a handful of lawmakers decide what we should and should not know. We are tired of living in a nation governed by fear instead of the principles of freedom and liberty that made this nation great."
That has nothing to do with Snowden. He's in Hong Kong, he's not living in this nation. The truth of his claims are in question.

[flamingdem]

26. I think you're right! Someone may have done this in the guise of being ACLU

but it's an arm -- see the posts above -- or some other related group.

The language gives it away.

[Comrade Grumpy]

36. No, the ACLU couldn't be concerned with privacy issues.

You guys would be funny if you weren't so pathetic.

[flamingdem]

52. It's written at a junior high school level

and tarnishes the reputation of the ACLU.

Looks like it's not an officially sanctioned petition.

That's outside of what you're implying, I'm not saying they're not concerned as a organization.
To me it looks like they were hijacked by a lesser entity here.

[Aerows]

31. It helps him immeasurably here on DU

That you are against him.

[ProSense]

38. That

"It helps him immeasurably here on DU That you are against him."

...doesn't say much: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023065177

[Aerows]

44. Mmm InCense

It burns so bright and smells so sweet ... until it doesn't. Then it just turns cloying and everyone recognizes the scent and is turned off by it.

[loyalsister]

35. Instead of sticking up for Snowden

they could be working toward a widespread national conversation on local and state levels.

[Comrade Grumpy]

37. Funny, that's precisely what Snowden started with his revelations.

Much as certain people try to sidetrack that discussion.

[ProSense]

41. No, he started a feeding frenzy of misinformation. n/t

[Comrade Grumpy]

48. And you are Exhibit A. n/t

[ProSense]

51. Can you point to where I've posted "misinformation"?

[cali]

59. *raises hand* I can, I can.

Snowden is going to be prosecuted.

It's going to happen. He broke the law, and he will be prosecuted.

It's inaccurate to claim in such absolute terms that he'll be prosecuted when he may well not be extradited.

[ProSense]

62. Wait

*raises hand* I can, I can.

Snowden is going to be prosecuted.

It's going to happen. He broke the law, and he will be prosecuted.

It's inaccurate to claim in such absolute terms that he'll be prosecuted when he may well not be extradited.

...you think an opinion is "misinformation"? I don't think you know what the word means.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023068663

[cali]

75. hahahaha. right. you posted in terms of absolutes. not "I think" or "I believe"

or "Maybe" or "It appears".

I know what misinformation means. You? Not so much. Do you know what disingenuous means? How about prevaricator?

[Demit]

61. "The leak was an attempt to bolster the libertarian brand."

[ProSense]

63. Opinion. Look it up! n/t

[Demit]

65. It doesn't say "*I think* the leak was an attempt to bolster the libertarian brand."

It was a declarative sentence. A flat statement. And even if we were supposed to somehow glean that it was your opinion, your links aren't serving as arguments of support for it. They don't have anything to do with your flat statement. You misled us into thinking you were going to explain your statement in the body of your post.

For that reason, and as it stands in itself, as a declarative statement, it is misinformation.

[ProSense]

83. Wait

"It doesn't say '*I think* the leak was an attempt to bolster the libertarian brand.'"

...are you serious?

[Demit]

85. Quite.

[loyalsister]

58. Unfortunately it's not really happening

The childish rhetoric is screwing it up. Using language like "powers that be" and starting with an assumption that Snowden is not going to be treated fairly derails the discussion entirely. That letter comes across as very immature.
The ACLU could provide some leadership for local conversations but would rather make demands on a national stage.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

40. Right, even our bedrock principals of jurisprudence must be sacrificed

To the totalitarians... to keep us all safe.

I thought you were gonna highlight some 'extreme' liberal demand but find that.

unless you forgot the /sarcasm tag, YIKES

[pnwmom]

71. Have you read about Obama or any administration official suggesting

that Snowden shouldn't be prosecuted in a regular court with the usual protections?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

74. That usually happens after the fact but we have a long history of abuse to

Look at, unfortunately.

But I was referring to what was highlighted as if it was some radical request :shakeshead:

[MannyGoldstein]

60. I think you're better than this.

Snowden deserves due process, of course.

Much important information has been released because of his actions.

We criticized the Nazis for not refusing to follow orders. In this case, a similar principle might - or might not - apply. Due process will tell us.

[pnwmom]

70. Which administration official has suggested that Snowden doesn't deserve due process?

This is just an ACLU fundraiser. As a member, I'm a little disappointed, but I know they have to raise money some way.

[ProSense]

81. Who suggested that he doesn't "deserves due process"?

"I think you're better than this."

Well, I thought you were better than this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023058467

[winter is coming]

64. The "Snowden is eeeeviillll" message won't help the NSA or this Administration.

Demonize him, prosecute him, incarcerate him... the government's still crapping on our Constitutional rights in a way that is neither justifiable nor patriotic. The increasingly desperate attempts to redirect scrutiny away from the NSA's behavior reveals far more than Snowden ever could.

[bunnies]

80. I dont think Ive ever seen a DUer get piled on as much...

as you have lately.

[ProSense]

84. Thanks, and

it's fun to read the disingenuous attempts to attack credibility:

"You are better than this"

"This is low even for you."

"Count her posts!!!"

"Blue links!"

"She keeps linking to herself"

"Trying to silence other with links."

[bunnies]

86. Yeah.

Meanwhile we have a poster claiming the hastings car was "firebombed" but your OP about a libertarian connection was a crazy conspiracy theory.

My personal favorite digs are "Oh now youre embarrassing yourself" and "I feel sorry for you". Its very compassionate bullying, isnt it.

[Tarheel_Dem]

126. +1000

[treestar]

97. They resort to personal attacks

Not having anything else.

[bunnies]

100. The very first response was a personal attack.

Its really disheartening.

[uponit7771]

106. +1

[Zorra]

112. Which strongly suggests that there is a valid reason for this phenomenon. nt

[Bobbie Jo]

123. No

It is what it is. Juvenile.

Equivalent to a temper tantrum.

[arely staircase]

91. yes, he deserves his due process in an american court to defend himself against the charges of

espionage. first step: turn himself in.

[bravenak]

94. Why wouldn't he get a fair trial?

Why so protective of this guy? He admits he stole, so really he's not innocent. He committed a crime. Why is he so special? Don't we still have Jonathan pollard in jail? He's no hero, he's a sneak. If he was a whistle blower he'd be in America defending his choice to release confidential info. If you think you are doing the right thing do you run and hide? He should stand his ground.

[muriel_volestrangler]

125. Well, we already have senators calling him a traitor, and than he's committed treason

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/06/11/boehner-calls-nsa-leaker-snowden-a-traitor/
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/democratic-senator-snowden-committed-act-of-treason

This, of course, prejudices a trial. The behaviour of the US government over people accused of similar offences has been to obstruct the defence lawyers, and mistreat the accused, which may give them mental health issues, which hurts their ability to defend themselves.

UN: free access to Bradley Manning 'blocked'

Daniel Choike, who was commander of the Quantico marine base between 29 July 2010 and 20 April 2011, when Manning was held there, said he had agreed to keep the soldier on a restrictive "prevention of injury" (PoI) order because of his "erratic behaviour, poor judgment in the past and poor family relationships".

The PoI order involved Manning being held in his cell for 23 hours a day in solitary confinement, having all his possessions withheld, being checked every five minutes, held overnight with the light on, and at times stripped of all his clothes.

Asked by David Coombs, Manning's civilian defence lawyer, to state specifically what "erratic behaviour" the soldier had displayed, Choike replied: "His acting out, playing peek-a-boo, licking the bars of his cell, dancing, erratic dancing – those are the ones I recall."

Coombs asked Choike whether he could imagine that somebody held captive in a 6ft by 8ft cell might dance out of boredom, to keep his mind occupied. "I suppose so," the retired colonel said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/28/bradley-manning-treatment-custody-wikileaks

[Cronus Protagonist]

99. Convince a JUDGE, or a JURY?

I seem to remember something about a jury in the Bill of Rights... let me check...

[rug]

104. I'll take the ACLU's legal opinion over yours.

[stevenleser]

109. Then you are going to have to decide which statement by the ACLU since they have contradictions

They praised FISA when Ted Kennedy died:

National Security

In 1978, after the revelations of the Church Committee, Senator Kennedy introduced the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) to act as a safeguard for Americans’ privacy from government surveillance. In 2005, when it was revealed that the Bush administration was conducting domestic surveillance in violation of FISA, Senator Kennedy was at the forefront of Congress’ outrage and demanded accountability.

[rug]

110. Actually, I don't.

The OP is about whistleblower status. Your (unlinked) post is not.

Nice try, Steve.

[stevenleser]

111. The "Nice try" is all yours, and the ACLU's. They goofed. They know it and you know it.

They praised Kennedy for enacting FISA and now they are getting after Obama for returning to FISA. And they glorify Snowden for proving... yep, that Obama uses FISA!

It's OK, the ACLU is usually right, they are entitled to a goof now and then.

[rug]

113. No, I don't know it.

Although I will amend my post: I take the ACLU's legal opinion over hers - and yours.

If you can pull yourself away from the bone you're gnawing on for a moment, the issue at hand is whistleblower status.

[stevenleser]

115. LOL, my opinion is the ACLUs opinion! One of them at least!

[rug]

116. I see. You agreed with them before you disagreed with them.

[stevenleser]

118. Sure, don't blame the vascillators on both sides of an issue blame everyone else

Who agreed with one incarnation of their views.

[muriel_volestrangler]

127. I'm finding it hard to believe you make a living from current affairs commentary

if you put forward such a transparently pathetic red herring, and expect anyone to take it seriously - or you. The ACLU campaign page in the OP does not mention FISA. However, here's what the ACLU said about the 2008 FISA changes, which is what the current administration is hiding behind:

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), enacted by Congress after the abuses of the 1960s and 70s, regulates the government’s conduct of intelligence surveillance inside the United States. It generally requires the government to seek warrants before monitoring Americans’ communications. In 2001, however, President Bush authorized the NSA to launch a warrantless wiretapping program, and in 2008 Congress ratified and expanded that program.

Less than an hour after President Bush signed the 2008 amendments, the ACLU filed a lawsuit challenging the law’s constitutionality. Because the 2008 amendments are scheduled to sunset in December, the ACLU is also calling on Congress to Fix FISA by prohibiting dragnet surveillance, mandating more transparency about the government’s surveillance activities, and strengthening safeguards for privacy. Tell your member of the Senate to Fix FISA.

http://www.aclu.org/organization-news-and-highlights/american-civil-liberties-union-mourns-senator-edward-kennedy

And Kennedy did not vote for the FISA Amendment Act: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/110-2008/s168

Seriously, you are making yourself look like the Sean Hannity of Democratic politics.

[Zorra]

117. *sigh*...Hatin' on the ACLU now. The message: "Be afraid, DU, be very afraid.

Do not challenge the status quo or make no mistake, they will get you. The MIC will prevail. Resistance is futile".

Recent OP subject lines:

The ACLU message isn't going to help Snowden. Snowden is going to be prosecuted.

[stevenleser]

119. Oh, we don't hate them. But they made a mistake here clearly since they are on both sides of this

issue.

[patrice]

129. Could it be they understand that reality is way more complicated than "both" anything?

Perhaps you can understand, why I might think that anyone who understands LGBT rights, also knows there's more than "both" anything else, even IF this particular instance, NSA, does have only 2 manifestations at this particular moment.

[patrice]

128. Can't help but notice how much what we don't know about all of this doesn't matter to so many. nt