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Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)The Iraq war.
The Afghanistan war.
The permanent national terror state.
Rule by plutocrats.
Massive rip-offs by the bankers.
A one-party two-party system.
Yay!
The Natural Surrealist Party is looking more enticing every day.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Wandering the forest these days.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)
magellan
(13,257 posts)Apropos. Where do I join?
treestar
(82,383 posts)They are so much more numerous, you have to live with them. How many have told me we can't get their votes by insulting them. Insulting the center seems utterly useless.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Living among them is different from living with them.
In the meantime, they're fun to play with.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)CENTRISM.....FUCK YEAH
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)or wish to accept/would rather ignore is that society is, has and hopefully always will be governed from the middle ... otherwise we get the authoritarian dictators (whether on the Left or the right) that they fear (or a complete societal break-down that many seem to cheer).
The center is where the most individual freedom lives, though it is fraught with having to balance my claim to what I want, with the equally legitimate claim of those that want something else.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)Because I don't see anything coming out of the political discussion left of dead Right and the rest is coming from lunatic fringe Right.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)political ideology/perspective, than it does about the actual middle of American thought?
If everyone and everything is to your right, than you can safely assume, by definition, you are at the extreme left.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)So blanket spying, assassination without trial and shilling to oil companies is now a "Center" concept?
No, there are objective right and left virtues, and somehow we only have the Right ones being represented. Is that "Center" to you?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)if you are astute enough to recognize and make this statement:
You would recognize the flaw in these statements:
... and somehow we only have the Right ones being represented.
The center ebbs and flows with the sentiment of society.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)And can be someplace other than the middle. That would mean this objective chart has to be adjusted to a current position based on society's current position...which is somewhere between full Right and Lunatic fringe.
Thank you for bringing us back to what I originally said.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I admit that the "center" is fluid ... No, I do not admit the "center" can be someplace other than the "middle, nor would that make any sense.
Ahhh, I see the disconnect ... you define middle as relative to your political perspective, rather than that of society!
News flash, you are a part of society; but you are not society.
okaawhatever
(9,478 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)of where others are. You aren't in the center, so you don't get to have your demands be considered the cetner.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)Ask the people from the Center of 20 years ago and you'll find them somewhere on the "Looney Left" now. aka: Repubs moving the goalposts and the Dems not pushing back.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)those in the center of jim crow south, you'd find them somewhere on the "looney right" 20 years from the polling.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)You just disagree for some reason that the prevailing color is Red. I'm not sure why, given the current climate.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)You have said both there is no objective center in political thought (a statement I agree with) AND the objective center is where I place it.
The center 20 years ago, might be the "looney left" relative today; and the center 50 years ago, would be the "looney right"; but no the less, the center is the center and it can only be judged/gauged relative to societal thought of the day.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)Last edited Tue Jun 18, 2013, 05:02 PM - Edit history (1)
But I'll try one more time. If you use a chart like this, you have to have an objective measure. Left has to mean something, Right has to mean something, and Center has to mean something.
The problem with that is that if the ideology that is the "center" of current thought, either the chart has to be set with current variables(values) or you have to have a compass point that moves to where the center point is.
The compass point is not on the Left. The compass point in not on the center, because that would require some Left stuff there(more or less equal amounts red/blue).
Before I say any more, do you disagree with with the points given so far?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'll try one more again ... you are still attempting to define Left, Right and Center relative to YOUR political perspective, not that of society. What is the center is determined by where the majority of society is (in terms of political thought, at any given point in history), not your own sensibilities.
Example: In the 50s, the majority of Americans supported segregation ... there were those that wanted to send Black folks to Africa and there were those that favored integration. By today's standards, integration would be a centrist position; but it clearly was not in the 50s.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)There's no way Democrats and Republicans are equally distant from the magical "center" in which all good things begin.
For further edification: www.politicalcompass.org It's a UK site, with a test you can take in 10 minutes, which will place you in the political firmament and which you can use to compare yourself to our leaders. Fascinating and Fun! And potentially eye-opening.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)That if this premise is true, all hope in politics and a future is absolutely futile by examining the scourge the "center" has been on humanity and this planet.
But really, who has hope left anyway?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)still have hope and are working for the future.
BTW, the "center" is neither a "scourge", nor a "blessed place" ... it is merely the spot on the political continium where competing ideologies balance.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)where is the good in "balance?"
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that there is enough crazy (and sane) on both sides to go around.
I know this isn't a popular position, but there is crazy on the left and sanity on the right. The middle avoids both extremes.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)I just don't see it in the government or positions of power in the party from the left. The right, on the other hand, seems to be wholly owned.
Seriously, check out this website if you have a chance, it really is interesting:
www.politicalcompass.org
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the left doesn't have the crazies in positions of power; but think about it, what you see is being cast as "right wing lite" ... though not an accurate assessment, in my view; imagine if the Democrats were to chase/allow tea-party fever, like the gop has done and many here are advocating.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)they'd have to find some communists to follow and--seriously--I don't think there are more than 30 in the entire country. I don't see it happening.
The Democratic leadership stance is pursuing more free-trade agreements, which isn't even center-left, or center; it is at best center-right. Nationalizing industries--even when we should! like the banks--isn't even on the radar.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)vote for congressional folks that are not interested in pursuing free-trade agreements.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)because of course there is more to the story. As was well laid out in a TED speech this year, we have a two-primary system. The first is the money primary. Only the people who do well here (or who can self-fund) make it to the normal primary.
http://theidproject.org/blog/ethan-nichtern/2013/04/07/welcome-lesterland-great-ted-talk-lawrence-lessig
So the system weeds out anyone who is against the status quo and then we all get to pick from a very narrow range of candidates. I personally think the population is far more center-left than center or center-right...not that you would know it from our outcomes. No wonder Congress has an approval rating of 10%...
And as I have said, the politicalcompass.org website is very instructive. The questionnaire doesn't use labels of any kind; it just asks about policy preferences. I have sent a number of people to it over the years and all of them--all of them, even my dyed-red defense industry BIL from Alabama--ended up WAY to the left of where he expected (Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama ended up with a lot of company). More than that, all of them ended up left of center, except another guy from Alabama who was right in the crosshairs (the graph has two axes, not one: economic and social).
Once again, I urge you to check it out. But regardless, nice to talk to you.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Averaging in assholes' ideas doesn't guarantee a better solution, or a solution at all. Frankly, averaging any idea in any matter does guarantee a best-case solution. Science doesn't care about ideas or opinions. Only spineless politicians do.
In any case, when the acidic oceans become anoxic and the centrist-approved corporate farms leave billions facing hunger amid unchecked environmental destruction, let's see how much hope your pretty, shiny center gives you. The fact is that the left, right and center are all failing simultaneously to produce a viable future for humanity (among multitude other species). All that is currently promised to us is death. All these ideas about superior political positions only give your egos a fleeting boost as our ship crashes. Carry on good soldier.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)elect politicians that subscribe to science and facts.
But my comments regarding what is and isn't the center are very far disconnected to what is/would be the better/"right"/Best solution; merely that the center tends to eliminate the extremes ... including those extreme solutions that might be "best." But again, there is no objective best solution; only a best solution that advances one's political end ... which will be seen as the worst solution by those in society seeking different ends.
Simply put ... society thrives not on the best policies, but the policy that is supported by a critical mass of the people. Otherwise, even the "best", but unsupported solution would be met with wide spread lawlessness.
That's just how we humans roll.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)insofar as society is thriving incorrectly towards calamity.
Policies that grease the wheels of commerce and produce the most aggregate growth (which may be those that are the most widely supported--though they may not be) are also policies that are causing us to grow past "the limits of growth".
While the "center" (averaging of idiots and assholes) may just in fact produce social stability, I don't see laudable value in a stable car driving off a cliff. To each their own.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but I prefer to defer to the collective wisdom of man/woman-kind; rather than, pretend to know what is best. That's why I do what I do, and am not a politician.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Please provide proof that the collective drivel of the mankind has almost anything to do with "wisdom". 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but it is how man/woman-kind has survived all these years ... Someone comes up with an idea, someone else pushes against it, through the back and forth, society decides as to a course of action, as the members choose a direction.
And when the originator of the "best", but unsupported solution stalks off on his/her own, he/she either gets eatten by the saber-tooth tiger, or figures out a way to increase the popularity of his/her idea ... at which point, the members of society move in his/her direction; or not.
That is the history of the world.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)And there is a fair bit of history yet to be written (though the next 100 years will be telling) where we realize all this commerce-greasing and machine tuning that led to infinite growth--in the name of growing infinitely--was the most insane course of action we could have every possibly engaged in.
In the end, you are simply describing how the self-sustaining machine sustains itself and evolves to becomes a more efficient consumer of energy. Every day science is showing us how terribly dangerous this unstoppable game-system has become.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)rather than worshipping a world as I wish it were.
Wow ... Just wow. Your world must be a very, very fearful place.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Climate change is real, and is a result of this "thriving" (evolving efficiency from continual conflict resolution, leading to accelerated growth & consumption).
Climate change will not take notice if you fear it...only if you feed it (even with your gooey centrist-tuned machine's carbon emissions).
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)see I happen to subscribe to the continuing evidence that man/woman-kind, ultimately will do what is right. And, Climate change is a great example ... 20 years ago, only the "looney left" gave even a passing thought to MMCC; now, it is a centrist issue. And as such, society will move en mass to supporting CC remediation by changing conduct and shifting resources.
Fear not.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)What is the "Center" doing in lunatic fringe Right territory?
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)That chart must be a year or so old.
Republicans left of Conservatives? That ain't right either.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the chart is correct.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)That shouldn't be possible based on the chart, since that would be right of the Repubs.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)1) the chart is not exclusive; and,
2) the terminalogy is not exclusive.
As to the latter, the term "conservadems" is more a descriptor that speaks to party identification and voting habit than a political position.
Kind of like referring to a Black person as an "Uncle Tom", it is not a political term.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)the democratic leadership does not seem to occupy the center ground from where i am standing, there is a whole spectrum of political thought between the center ground and some of the policies and actions of the democratic party of the US.
european parties that appeal to the same "demographic" as the american republican party in the US does, and use the same rhetoric, are fringe parties of the extreme right that sometimes poll 10% of the vote or so.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I have to accept that ... unless, or until I brush up on european political thought.
But that seems accurate (from my limited knowledge base) in that most of European is politically to the left of the U.S.
But relating that to this string, european political thought has very little to do with identifying the "middle/center" of political thought here in the U.S.
Rex
(65,616 posts)
hunter
(38,349 posts)Your graph is actually the top view of a political system cork screwing into the ground.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_spiral
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)
