Schieffer Destroys Snowden: ‘I Don’t Remember Martin Luther King Jr. Or Rosa Parks Hiding In China’

[ProSense]

Schieffer Destroys Snowden: ‘I Don’t Remember Martin Luther King Jr. Or Rosa Parks Hiding In China’

by Evan McMurry

Bob Schieffer excoriated NSA-leaker Edward Snowden on Face the Nation this morning, not as a traitor but as a coward who fled the country rather than accept responsibility for his actions.

“I like people who are willing to stand up to the government,” Schieffer began. “As a reporter, it’s my job to do that from time to time. Some of the people I admire most are in the government. Men and women who led the civil rights movement— Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Jr.—they are true heroes. I’m not ready to put Edward Snowden in that category. For one thing, I don’t remember Martin Luther Jing, Jr. or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who led the civil rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences. That’s a little different than putting the nation’s security at risk and running away.”

Schieffer was careful not to let his disapproval of Snowden be misconstrued as complete acceptance of the surveillance Snowden revealed, but was also careful to criticize a program about which he knew little.

<...>

“I think what we have in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us. I don’t know what he is beyond that, but he is no hero. If he has a valid point—and I’m not even sure he does—he would greatly help his cause by voluntarily coming home to face the consequences.”

- more -

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/schieffer-destroys-edward-snowden-i-dont-remember-martin-luther-king-jr-or-rosa-parks-hiding-in-china/

Why exactly is the guy being compared to MLK and Rosa Parks?

[Deep13]

1. Still ad hominem.

The real issue is still the idea of punishing people for telling the truth.

[baldguy]

9. And it hasn't been demonstrated that Snowden *IS* telling the truth.

There have been exaggerations that some people have used to leap to erroneous conclusions, and some unfounded accusations with promises for proof - but very little actual facts to back them up.

[cali]

17. who cares? Isn't the important thing the subject itself:

Why do we have such a massive national security apparatus?

why is surveillance of the American people so extensive?

What exactly does it consist of?

and so much more.

[freedom fighter jh]

27. +1

The emphasis belongs on what's going on with surveillance, not on Snowden.

[timdog44]

166. And I think Sieiffer recognizes

that the spying is wrong. That is not his point. To put Snowden in the same group with Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks belittles the two of them and the things they did. There is nothing wrong with questioning the motives of a person's actions. And I agree, I think he, Snowden stinks to high heaven. The main issue is the spying, but if the reasons were treasonous, for what ever reason, he needs to be taken to task.

"Ad Hominem" is an argument from both sides. To accuse someone of ad hominem is ad hominem itself.

[HardTimes99]

37. As Sabrina 1 stated in a very lengthy thread a couple days ago:

Are we (citizens and residents of the U.S.) being spied on or not? Corolllary: Does the 4th Amendment still mean anything or not?

Besides your and Sabrina 1's questions, all other questions are, imo, immaterial and attempts at deflection.

Great questions you ask, btw!

[baldguy]

39. Who cares about the facts?

And forget about the corporations invading your life, tracking your activity, knowing who you're talking to, when & for how long - and then auctioning your privacy off to the highest bidder. THAT doesn't matter one bit.

Would it make you feel better if the NSA just paid Verizon, AT&T, Google and Facebook for the info they need instead of doing what they've done: following the law, going to a court & getting a warrant?

[blackspade]

133. Strawman.

Corporations invading your privacy is a huge problem as well, but that does not deflect away from the fact that the NSA has been spying on Americans for no reason for at least a decade.

We can have both conversations though.

[baldguy]

183. And equating Obama with Big Brother or the Stasi is....?

[blackspade]

247. And I did that where?

You do know it is possible to agree with some of his policies and not others correct?
And this goes beyond Obama, to the heart of a corrupt system that can't function without these unconstitutional programs.

[bluestate10]

193. No strawman. The NSA gets approval to listen in on people's emails and phone calls.

Private communication companies don't. I recently ordered some items over the web that showed an organizational affinity by me. Since then, I have randomly gotten ads that focused in on that affinity. In order to get that information, the company putting up the ads would have to gotten private transaction information, without me knowing and without a warrant or going before a court to get approval.

[blackspade]

249. So you say.

The NSA gets approval to listen in on people's emails and phone calls

This is your opinion based on what? Because this program is secret we have no real idea what they are doing.

Private communication companies don't. I recently ordered some items over the web that showed an organizational affinity by me. Since then, I have randomly gotten ads that focused in on that affinity. In order to get that information, the company putting up the ads would have to gotten private transaction information, without me knowing and without a warrant or going before a court to get approval.

I totally agree. That is a conversation we definitely should have as well. I think the two problems are flip sides of the same coin.

[KittyWampus]

59. Who cares if Snowden's information is true? WTF?

[kentuck]

79. It is important.

Many things are important.

[Apophis]

81. + infinity.

[truebluegreen]

122. I don't give a rip about any of the personalities involved.

All I care about is the program, and what it could do.

Everything else is distraction, including Schieffer's hyperventilating on the subject.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

152. How about the COST?

Police States aren't cheap.

Right after 9/11 there were Republicans talking about border crossings along state lines and having to get travel permits to visit your folks in Florida. Imagine paying tens of thousands of border guards. Recently, they were actually considering declaring national martial law when their policies caused the Stock Market to crash. They have been the ones who created the Patriot Act and the storm trooper police force and the massive jail system that runs at cost-plus profit.

Now they play the role of cheapskate and act like they are about small government.

They want government just small enough to yank you out of your bathtub for yanking.

[bluestate10]

186. There is no surveillance without enough proof to get approval to survey.

What it about that fact that you don't understand?

[DirkGently]

41. Really? Who in government said the docs were fake?

I've heard it argued the NSA fucked up its own graphic. I've heard Snowden's girlfriend something something pole dancing.

And of course, Dick Cheney questions his credibility.

That leaves us with leaked documents that make the NSA very uncomfortable.

[KittyWampus]

61. A phrase was grossly misinterpreted. And if you haven't heard that but HAVE heard they were fake

you must not be reading info from fact-based reality.

[DirkGently]

63. No. It's been alleged a phrase didn't mean what it said.

That's not misinterpretation, gross or otherwise.

[DirkGently]

74. You mean the phrase printed verbatim on the NSA

graphic whose authenticity has not been challenged?

That phrase?

[Chathamization]

72. The focus on the girlfriend is quite telling

it's always interesting if not a bit disheartening to be reminded how conservative the country at large is. Yes, pole dancing is an exercise routine that's fairly popular these days. Yes, people keep blogs, and yes, they will sometimes go swimming in a - wait for it - bathing suit.

[Eddie Haskell]

151. An exercise routine with a large male audience.

[Chathamization]

164. In India most of the performers are male

at least based on all the videos/pictures I've seen of it.

[WinkyDink]

125. You missed the thread about the NSA's admission of listening to phone calls?

[baldguy]

253. Not without a warrant they didn't.

Just the opposite, in fact:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/jerrold-nadler-does-not-thinks-nsa-can-listen-us-phone-calls/66278/

[Fuddnik]

38. You mean Bob Schieffer, George W. Bush's golfing buddy?

A 1%er, and knighted member of the worthless corporate propaganda machine, aka, the mainstream media.

That Bob?

[liberalmike27]

44. Wow

Talk about comparing apples and oranges. The two fruits aren't nearly different enough to use in this case, using the historical great MLK in the comparison.

[Deep13]

173. That's kind of the point.

For the national debate on spying, it does not matter who leaking the information.

[LanternWaste]

261. Drawing an accurate and relevant distinction is not an ad hominem attack.

Drawing an accurate and relevant distinction is not an ad hominem attack.

[Deep13]

262. No, not an attack...

...but drawing the comparison in the first place is. And explaining why the King and Parks examples are not really relevant also focuses on the man rather than the actions and the issues. So it's not an ad hominem attack, but it still focuses on the man rather than the real issues, ergo, "ad hominem."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. Einstein failed his entrance exams, ducked the draft, and fled his country.

[ProSense]

8. Why exactly is the guy being compared to MLK and Rosa Parks?

"Einstein failed his entrance exams, ducked the draft, and fled his country."

Snowden = Einstein? The OP doesn't mention anything "Einstein."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Why does it bother you? I can see the connection.

All 3 fought for the rights of the people and were spied on and pursued by the bosses.

[ProSense]

18. The OP still made no mention of Einstein. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. So? Scheiffer apparently thinks it a defect that Snowden fled the country. So, did Einstein.

[xtraxritical]

140. Yes, I get your drift but Einstein fled Nazi Germany. Are you implying we're on our way there too?

[Whisp]

53. what utter bullshit to compare Snowden with MLK and Parks.

It's disgusting beyond words. It's demeaning to their memories and what they had to suffer.

What utter stupidity.

Holy shit. I've heard it all now, nothing will surprise me from this day forward.

I think Chris Hayes tried to do that on his show one day this week and got a deserved big assed good spanking on social media for it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

82. When did Snowden compare himself to Parks or King? Schlieffer did the comparing.

You seem to be upset with the wrong guy.

[Whisp]

84. did I say Snowden did the comparing?

no.

but some idiots are.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

90. Idiots like Schlieffer? How about Ellsberg? Gore?

Ellsberg and Gore think highly of what he's done. Not to mention the ACLU and Code Pink.

[Cha]

132. No, Idiots like Chris Hayes.. at least try to keep up.

[Major Hogwash]

219. Chris is too young to have his own program on MSNBC.

It was the stupidest segment he has ever done.

"Purple haze, all up in my brain
Makes me feel, quite insane
'Scuze me, while I kiss this guy"

[Hekate]

210. From the outset there have been DUers who compared Snowden to Rosa Parks and MLK

And that, Tierra, is when I stopped reading, so don't ask me who they were.

[xtraxritical]

143. Off topic, but funny, I saw Chris Hayes starring in an old movie called "Slackers" on YouTube.

It was a surprise, I didn't know he was an actor.

[Whisp]

148. Most of them are actors there at MSNBC.

Pretty crappy ones too.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

220. But, but, but...they're a different color and therefore must be diminished...

...just like you-know-who...

[randome]

15. Well to be fair, Snowden is an 'IT genius' according to his friend on Lawrence O'Donnell.

But she also claimed she doesn't understand IT.

With the bulk of Snowden's resume turning out to be exaggerations or outright forgeries, I hardly see the need to believe anything he says unless he shows evidence to support his claims.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[treestar]

20. I think they are trying to make the point that people without education can be brilliant

They are just too smart for the system of education and so they don't do well in it.

In my experience, those who don't have an education who are in a social group with people who do, resent the people who do and are very sensitive to the idea that they are not as smart as the people who do. Thus they love the Einstein situation, which of course does not apply to them as they are not brilliant.

Snowden could be good with computers without a degree, so I'll give him that if some employer says he had the skills they needed without the degree. If the employers say nothing though, it will hint as we've been wondering that it was just connections or possibly he is a patsy of some kind.

[Wait Wut]

56. Yep.

I'm not jumping on the 'he only has a GED' bus. I, myself, can't even make that claim. I dropped out with a 4.0 average and had been offered an honors program that would have earned college credits. I had my reasons. A friend of mine back in Chicago ran away at 13, lived on the streets until he was 17 and was taken in by a distant relative. He's a freakin' self-taught computer genius today.

I also know plenty of people with advanced degrees that surprise me when they can tie their own shoes.

There are plenty of reasons to doubt Snowden, his education, or lack of, isn't one of them.

[treestar]

116. I agree totally

Common sense goes a long way too and computer is one thing you can be self taught on. Agree on some people with advanced degrees, too. I have one and a computer issue any deeper than the user manual makes my brain freeze. One the word "driver" or "SQL" is on the table, I am off to the professionals.

[reusrename]

168. There has been a lot of study on education and conformity, particularly level of education.

This guy appears to fit the nonconformist profile. This has to be something that the national security state would be aware of. It's hard to imagine them missing this trait.

IMHO, he really is smart, he really does understand this stuff, he easily ensured that he "friended" all the right people into his own social network, and he was studious enough with it that he was never noticed as a possible insurgent.

[VanillaRhapsody]

31. I HAVE seen him compared to Muhammad Ali here at DU

M.A. who also didn't run but stood up and had the courage of his convictions and was jailed over Viet Nam. He also didn't run to China....

But the comparison remained AND had the temerity to opine that Ali would also see Snowden as his equal!

[liberalmike27]

45. Exactly

Comparing Apples and Chevrolet's.

IF there is a "comparison" it's slight, a super-subset.

[Bradical79]

257. It's not that difficult to understand

And I'm not sure why he's being compared to Rosa Parks and MLK. It's apples and oranges. Trying to compare and contrast with well respected refuges, dissidents, and persecuted journalists who fled their home country is a much better comparison. Hence the Einstein comment. Rather than compare his reasons for leaving the country with others, the simple fact of his leaving is being used as a core argument as to why he isn't to be respected which is a pretty stupid argument for a so called journalist to make.

[HardTimes99]

49. And Thank God Einstein did, otherwise history might have ended

quite differently. Heisenberg and Einstein might have been just the combo to make Hitler unstoppable. Had Einstein simply not written his letter to FDR . . .

(Although that genius Hitler probably would have sent Einstein to Auschwitz.)

[Wait Wut]

50. Einstein was never a 'hero'.

I don't recall anyone ever calling him a hero. Einstein was a great man with a miraculous mind. He never did anything heroic.

Thomas Edison was not a hero. The Wright brothers were not heroes. Thomas Jefferson was not a hero. If people are going to lump Snowden in with great minds, fine and dandy, but if you're going to put the 'hero' label on him, then put him up with other heroes and stop using Einstein.

Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, Jr. were heroes. Snowden doesn't belong on the same bus. They didn't run.

I would have a lot more respect for Snowden if he hadn't run. To China of all places. If you're going to claim to be a martyr for humanity, you pick freakin' China for protection? Something smells. There are plenty of other countries that he could have chosen that wouldn't have given me a huge freakin' reason to doubt him. I'm a big fan of the people of China. Their government, not so much. Do you think China would be so welcoming if he had been one of their own and it was their own government he was 'exposing'?

I'm sorry, but there is serious doubt in my mind about his choices. He's a narcissist with his own agenda. I'm just curious to see what happens when China gets tired of him. The boy made some stupid decisions. I think he saw a golden calf and it's about to turn into nothing more than lead painted toy made in China.

[hopemountain]

145. agree with your comments

this "story" hasn't even begun to unfold...and nsa is a bit too quiet.
why would snowden go to china when china does the exact same thing to it's citizens and allows (in cajoots with foreign corporate interests) even worse (forced work camps)? it is hypocrisy to say he is doing this for the american people and then jumps in bed with the chinese

[AnotherMcIntosh]

182. Many people have called Einstein a hero for his accomplishments. So you don't know that. So what?

"Albert Einstein's vision and innovation created a lasting impact on both the world of science and our society."

See the video at http://www.biography.com/people/albert-einstein-9285408/videos

See also

"What makes Albert Einstein a 'hero'?"

"He shed light on a whole new way to look at physics that changed the picture from Newtonian. He helped invent relativistic physics, win a war against a madman. He then asked the president not to use his theories for militaristic ends, but to serve humanity."

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110131002523AAr5cRa

Many additional similar responses can be found with Google.

[Wait Wut]

259. Okay, you can call Einstein a hero.

But, would you compare him to Rosa Parks? MLK? I wouldn't. A true hero can stand alone on their own merits and don't need to be compared to other heroes to validate their accomplishments.

BTW, if you Google 'Hitler Hero' you'll find a lot of results, as well. Should I compare Einstein to Hitler? One man's hero is another man's...not.

I'm honestly not trying to be a smart ass. If you want to call Snowden a hero, that's fine. But, I wish people would stop with the comparisons. If he deserves the label, the comparisons shouldn't be necessary.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

263. Actually, I can do whatever I want. And I do.

[Wait Wut]

264. Alrighty then.

As do I.

[bluestate10]

194. How disgusting of you. Einstein fled nazism. I can't believe anyone would compare

Snowden's cowardice to an act of historical significance to the world.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

202. So, Snowden gave up everything to call attention to government spying and you call it

cowardice?

And, I think his act bravery is of great significance to the the world. Much to the dismay of the defenders of a government spying on its own people.

[Leopolds Ghost]

216. The Nazis could only DREAM of the level of government spying this is about.

Don't forget that the Post article, at least, quotes numerous security experts on background backing up and expanding on Snowden's claims, with quotes like "It's extreme Big Brother" and "when it comes out, the American people will be outraged." Not Snowden saying that, insiders.

[Zoeisright]

251. OH yeah.

Running away like a little brat is real brave.

[Fumesucker]

3. Didn't keep MLK from being bugged by the government

But it was cool because it was all legal.

[liberalmike27]

46. Well

It was as legal as lynching black folks, which is to say it was not legal. But they did it.

[CanonRay]

4. I don't think King or Parks ever broke a law that could lead to life in prison

If I'm wrong, please correct me. They were heros, but they mostly broke local ordinances, not laws with the full weight of the DOJ and the national security apparatus behind it. Lousy comparison by Bob.

[treestar]

19. True that's a big difference

Still, if he really believed in it, he could face up to that. MLK and Rosa Parks were in danger from nongovernment forces to a much greater degree, and in MLK's case, that proved to be he paid with his life still. I don't think any of us who think Snowden did wrong is willing to assassinate Snowden - so the issue doesn't have the same degree of force with the public generally. And that's much easier than the government getting the death penalty in a case. Unlike Manning, Snowden could get a jury trial. There's also a prosecutorial reluctance to seek the death penalty in high profile cases, isn't there? Like OJ.

[Babel_17]

80. Snowden could get treated and tried depending on governments mood

Think of how many times you've heard treason yelled out.

And while they decide on how to try him how will he be incarcerated? He won't get bail and he'll likely be on suicide watch, like Manning, and quite possibly he'll be in a military facility or a federal one that treats him like a suspected terrorist.

And even if we thought that was unlikely it's irrelevant to what is motivating Snowden.

Given what he's been exposed to he likely fears the worst kind of treatment if he surrenders himself.

P.S. Good points about Parks and King risking death from civilians. Plus they were subject to waves of hatred.

Though I think Snowden fears catching a bullet from sources never to be identified.

[treestar]

114. They won't charge him with Treason as he's not guilty of that

To avoid the abuses of the English law (including executions by Henry VIII of those who criticized his repeated marriages), treason was specifically defined in the United States Constitution, the only crime so defined. Article III Section 3 delineates treason as follows:


Iva Toguri, known as Tokyo Rose, and Tomoya Kawakita were two Japanese Americans who were tried for treason after World War II.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
However, Congress has, at times, passed statutes creating related offenses that punish conduct which undermines the government or the national security, such as sedition in the 1798 Alien and Sedition Acts, or espionage and sedition in the 1917 Espionage Act, which do not require the testimony of two witnesses and have a much broader definition than Article Three treason. For example, some well-known spies have been convicted of espionage rather than treason.
The Constitution does not itself create the offense; it only restricts the definition (the first paragraph), permits Congress to create the offense, and restricts any punishment for treason to only the convicted (the second paragraph). The crime is prohibited by legislation passed by Congress. Therefore the United States Code at 18 U.S.C. § 2381 states "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." The requirement of testimony of two witnesses was inherited from the British Treason Act 1695.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason

There's no war and China wouldn't be an "enemy" at this time, I would think, nor has it ever been.

He has enough sympathy if DU is any indicator, that if I were prosecutor I would not seek the max penalty for the charges that do apply. But the death penalty probably isn't a possibility for 18 USC whatever it is. And he could spend the whole time talking via his lawyer about national security. And have the trial on TV which would lead to coverage and more dialogue about Big Brother and thus more political support for walking back some of the laws like FISA or the Patriot Act.

It depends on his personality, he might not be on suicide watch, but he would not be military so the things that happened with Manning could not happen.

That Julian never got a bullet is significant to me that the big bad US/CIA isn't doing such things anymore. It abused a lot of power in the 50s but in today's media they would have to take the heat. I don't think they believe some undercover accident or shooting is on the table. We'd all know immediately.

[Babel_17]

130. They could treat him as an enemy combatant

But the point is that our government can hold him for a long time before trying him. They can hold him a long time before indicting him. They can hold him a long time before he gets a lawyer.

P.S. It's also about how they can treat you while they decide whether to charge you with treason. Guilt is for trials to determine.

Edit: I didn't originally say he could be tried for treason, I was talking about the cries of it against Snowden. But anyway, I'm probably wrong when I said above that they might decide to try him for it. As your link points out, they have espionage as a charge to use. But since 911 there are lots of extra tools to use against someone like Snowden.

[treestar]

174. How would he qualify as enemy combatant?

I thought that went away with Bushco.

[Babel_17]

191. My bad, the administration did retire the term

In the United States on March 13, 2009, the Obama administration announced its abandonment of the Bush administration's use of the term "enemy combatant".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_combatant

[SwankyXomb]

150. The enemy he's giving Aid and Comfort to

is the American people.

[treestar]

175. Huh?

How can the American people be an enemy of the USA

[SwankyXomb]

187. The American people

are the enemy of the US government.

[treestar]

195. That is silly

I know cynicism is in vogue, but we still have elections - we picked those people to represent us. WE shouldn't play victim to them.

[HardTimes99]

55. I thoroughly and profoundly disagree with Schieffer's smear tactics and despise the

way he sucks up to fascism so credulously and regularly. Something about this bravery-cowardice sweepstakes really, thoroughly, pisses me off.

Having said that, though, Rosa Parks could have been killed by the Montgomery, AL police extra-judicially and not a goddamned thing would have happened. See Emmett Till for more on that subject. She was an incredibly brave woman. I can only hope that I act with 0.01% of her bravery if and when circumstances compel me to.

[Hippo_Tron]

135. MLK and Rosa Parks did a lot of things that were likely to get them killed...

Or possibly framed for some kind of serious crime by the corrupt authorities in the south. Bob's right that they were willing to put themselves in harms way, but it's still a stupid comparison.

[JI7]

190. and of course in the case of MLK he did get killed

[Hippo_Tron]

200. Eventually yes he was, but the circumstances of his actual assassination...

Don't really serve to demonstrate the danger he was putting himself in. MLK was ultimately assassinated by a whack-job who nobody can seem to prove even had a political motive to kill him. King was a prominent figure at that point, and James Earl Ray spent the rest of his life in prison (save for a brief escape).

What King was really risking, though, was the prospect of an extrajudicial killing condoned by the authorities. In the late 50's and early 60's, someone could have easily murdered him in the south and not spent a single day in jail.

[Number23]

208. A black person that broke ANY law that upheld the notion of white supremacy was subject

to a hell of alot more than the sentence applied to a broken local ordinance.

Many didn't even make it to the courthouse. They were lynched before anything remotely resembling the law could be applied.

[treestar]

227. This ^^^^^

It is utterly ridiculous that anyone compared Eddie to them and found Eddie in greater danger. He could face the music and would be treated fairly in this country per its laws. He is no MLK or Rosa Parks.

[warrior1]

5. I think Chris Hayes did that last week

It was a real low for Chris.

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/12/letter-from-a-hong-kong-hotel-suite/

snip

Both of our great martyrs died trying to expiate the sins of slavery and racism. Without their work, the America in which we live would be unrecognizable. In fact, there might very well be no America, as it would have split along the fissures caused by one of its two original sins, that of slavery.

Which is why it’s quite curious that Chris Hayes, on his show last night, brought up the memories of Dr. King and Rosa Parks when speaking of NSA leaker Edward Snowden.

The pushback on Twitter was immediate and furious. And Hayes didn’t walk back his comments, but repeated them two hours later on Lawrence O’Donnell’s show.

That Chris Hayes would invoke MLK’s memory in defense of Edward Snowden is beyond blinkered. It’s reprehensible.


snip

[HardTimes99]

60. MLK would have approved of what Snowden did, if MLK's anti-war

speeches on Vietnam mean anything any more.

Gawd, this cowardice-bravery sweepstakes really pisses me off.

[warrior1]

98. Now you speak for MLK?

The OP is that people comparing snowden to MLK.


The differences could be bigger.

[HardTimes99]

159. On the contrary, the OP reports that Schieffer has

smeared Snowden by implying that Snowden is a coward b/c Martin Luther King, Jr. did not 'flee.'

Aside from the many outrageous and un-American elements of that smear, there is the not small matter that Martin Luther King would have himself approved of the actions Snowden has taken, if one can believe the words of MLK, Jr.'s 1967 Riverside speech "Beyond Vietnam" (excerpted below):

We are now faced with the fact that tomorrow is today. We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now. In this unfolding conundrum of life and history there is such a thing as being too late. Procrastination is still the thief of time. Life often leaves us standing bare, naked and dejected with a lost opportunity. The "tide in the affairs of men" does not remain at the flood; it ebbs. We may cry out deperately for time to pause in her passage, but time is deaf to every plea and rushes on. Over the bleached bones and jumbled residue of numerous civilizations are written the pathetic words: "Too late." There is an invisible book of life that faithfully records our vigilance or our neglect. "The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on..." We still have a choice today; nonviolent coexistence or violent co-annihilation.

We must move past indecision to action . . . . If we do not act we shall surely be dragged down the long dark and shameful corridors of time reserved for those who possess power without compassion, might without morality, and strength without sight.

FWIW, Time Magazine called that speech "demagogic slander that sounded like a script for Radio Hanoi." I'm thinking Schieffer has now stolen a page out of Henry Luce's book.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2564.htm

[warrior1]

163. so you don't think MLK would

support the POTUS?

[HardTimes99]

165. Unclear. MLK, Jr. eventually broke with LBJ over Vietnam, even though

the interests of the two had very closely converged earlier in the 60s with Civil Rights and the War on Poverty.

Do you think MLK, Jr. would be condemning Snowden as a 'coward'?

[Are_grits_groceries]

172. MLK supported the poor and other people who needed his help.

He was not one to sit by and let anybody continually bamboozle him. If he thought more should be done in any area, he would have said so.

In addition, I don't think he would be thrilled at all with the spying in any form.

[treestar]

228. MLK would have stood up for this country

He worked on the premise it would do the right thing. He certainly did not have such a cynical view or he would not have gone through with things the way he did.

[HardTimes99]

237. MLK worked on the premise that only love could conquer hate (to quote a line

from the song "What's Goin' On?" by Marvin Gaye). Not sure what 'cynical view' you are referring to.

[hobbit709]

6. Apples and oranges.

Are you just stirring the metabolic byproducts container?

[Incitatus]

7. It seems a lot of people are trying to make this story about the leaker and not the spying. nt

[Junkdrawer]

24. Yep. Becoming more and more obvious to all. n/t

[bluestate10]

199. The story isn't about spying. Your ilk is desperately trying to make it so.

Fortunately, something like 54% of Americans don't buy your claims. The NSA gets approval from judges to listen in on the phone calls and email of people ONLY after there is convincing evidence that those people may be deeply involved with known terrorists or associates of terrorists. You and your ilk would generate more respect on this issue if you adhered to the truth and avoided sensationalism.

[Skittles]

245. "your ilk" = the non-naive

[99Forever]

10. Pay no attention to...

... to the man behind the curtain!

[treestar]

11. Exactly. Had he stayed here, it would be a different thing.

[zeemike]

120. It sure would have been a different thing.

He would have been arrested and thrown in the same place Manning now inhabits and never seen again....but that would not have stooped them from telling us he was a traitor or you defending them.
And once in prison this story would be over in less than a week and the spying would not only continue but would get larger, because now they had your permission to do it.
Presidents would have been set, and Big Brother would be an establishment presence in both parties.

I do not fault him for saving his own life....we have the right to do that...at least for now.

[reusrename]

171. This would be worse than what they did to Manning.

Noriega, more likely.

[treestar]

177. Like the Julian accusations, this is baloney

Any accident or shooting would be instantly suspected. There's no way they'd do it. They'd be pissed if some rogue did it, but there's no such person.

[treestar]

176. What baloney

For one, he is not in the military. For two, if he's such a brave hero, why doesn't he face the music? That's what brave heroes do.

[reusrename]

178. He says he's not done yet.

Wouldn't that be a good reason?

[treestar]

196. Maybe, but then he should face the music

If he's sincere.

[zeemike]

181. You don't have to be in the military to be sent to a federal prison.

And who said he was a brave hero?....more dichotomy?....he is ether a traitor or a hero?
And brave hero that put themselves where they can be eliminated are stupid hero not brave ones.,,,this is not some fantasy war movie you are watching.

[treestar]

198. But your due process rights are much more extensive

Manning is subject to military tribunal, and that can be quite strict. Eddie has the full citizen's right to jury trial.

[zeemike]

206. Believe me they can step all over those rights

Just as easy as they step all over the 4th amendment rights.
The prison system is not a place where your rights are held in high regard.

[Leopolds Ghost]

211. The government needs ProSense's permission to do anything.

After all, he righteously maintains that our government derives inexorably from the consent of the moral majority of upper-middle-class, centrists including him. The question is, what makes people who feel this way more American than people who feel alienated? A sense of belonging combined with a hatred of those who do not adhere to standards of what it is to be a patriotic citizen and facebooker?

To paraphrase a legendary "salt of the earth" radio obituary for a trucker, "He was a good CB'er... and the father of my children."

[ProSense]

16. I'm still

"you're embarassing yourself this isn't about Snowden or even Obama. It's about National Security, National security agencies, surveillance, foreign policy, privacy, the constitution. "

...laughing at you. I mean, go into one of the "Edward Snowden is a hero threads" and tell them they're "embarrassing" themselves.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3026882

I'll still be laughing at you.

[cali]

23. sure, you're laughing. who do you think you're fooling?

not very many people here.

and yeah, you're embarrassing yourself.

This endless petty, personality driven stuff you roll around in. sad.

[ProSense]

30. No,

sure, you're laughing. who do you think you're fooling?

not very many people here.

and yeah, you're embarrassing yourself.

This endless petty, personality driven stuff you roll around in. sad.

...I'm really laughing. What was the gist of your recent CYA post: I think Obama is a liar, but I still love him and would vote for him.

"personality driven stuff "

[ForgoTheConsequence]

241. I agree.

Your last post was unnecessarily hidden but you were right on.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

265. I also agree.

And I too, agree, your last post was unnecessarily hidden but you were right on.

[Fumesucker]

21. Trying every trick possible to depress Democratic turnout

The OP of practically every poster on DU makes me the most depressed about the chances of ever changing anything through politics, sheer genius actually, an enthusiasm troll of immaculate conception.

[ProSense]

33. .

[KittyWampus]

65. You are the one who literally is saying that facts don't matter. Unless they support your bias.

Which is human. Confirmation bias is human. But still, those of us living in the fact-based reality care about the truth regarding what the NSA is doing.

[Downwinder]

13. For my money Josephine Baker and Paul Robeson were both heroes.

[CakeGrrl]

22. There is NO comparison.

The leaker stole data and is wheeling and dealing to avoid consequences.

The attempts to co-opt MLK and Parks' TRUE heroism are crap.

[cantbeserious]

25. The Character Assassination Continues - Focus On The Oligarchs - Not The Whistle Blowers

eom

[VanillaRhapsody]

34. Where is the proof that he has any evidence at all of his claims

other than what he claims he showed to Chinese foreign nationals that is...

[cantbeserious]

36. The Proof Is Found With Greenwald - The Man To Which He Gave The Documents

eom

[VanillaRhapsody]

62. and who has also not produced said documents...

He did apparently show some to Chinese nationals...not to American Citizens. For that alone he has my disgust!

[cantbeserious]

64. Your Disgust - My Cheers That Greenwald Has Them - We Will Have To Agree To Disagree

eom

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. Then why no outcry that Greenwald present his "facts"

but China seems to have been a bigger priority for Snowden doesn't it?

[cantbeserious]

70. Greenwald Is A Journalist For Which I Have Higher Respect Than The US Government Or Obama

eom

[VanillaRhapsody]

73. He has to do something to get my respect....where are the documents Greenwald?

otherwise Greenwald should S.T.F.U!

[cantbeserious]

83. My My - You Are Quite Angry - Is That Because You Now Realize That You Have Been Lied To

You Might Watch This Exchange From A House Hearing Where It Is Clear That The Story Publicly And Privately Is Quite Different.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017125908

[VanillaRhapsody]

91. No I don't "now realize"

I am the one waiting for evidence that Snowden has to back up his claims...otherwise he should also S.T.F.U. and since he blabbed to the Chinese not YOU ....you should be disgusted by too!

In our party the ends do not justify the means remember?

[cantbeserious]

94. If You Want Confirmation That The Story Is Probably True Then Watch Nadler - Official Story Mismatch

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017125908

[VanillaRhapsody]

95. So anyone who makes this claim is a hero...just for making a claim

but you dismiss the fact that he spoke to the Chinese...


Says alot about you!

[cantbeserious]

97. Ad Hominen Attack - Against The DU TOS

eom

[VanillaRhapsody]

99. Oh good grief....

[VanillaRhapsody]

102. Ad Hominen Attack - Against The DU TOS

What's good for the goose as they say!

[cantbeserious]

106. Your Character Or Person Was Never Attacked - So Does Not Apply

eom

[VanillaRhapsody]

108. that's your opinion...

I am not angry....as you accused me of...

I am a patriot who cares that he blabbed national secrets to the chinese...

[cantbeserious]

111. Once Again An Assumption That I Am Not A Patriot - Patriotism Is Not A One Size Fits All Proposition

That you are angry is a comment on your emotions and not your character.

[VanillaRhapsody]

119. No I didn't imply that did I

I am sick and tired of being told I am not a "good American or Liberal" for not taking something at face value and for not calling him a hero just because he proclaims something we all surmise to be true....I require proof. I also do not approve of showing proof to the Chinese but not me....

[mimi85]

223. Greenwald is a journalist

that I have absolutely NO respect for and never have. I think he's just another smug firebagger.

[cantbeserious]

232. Undefined Term - Firebagger? - What Are You Talking About?

eom

[treestar]

231. That's a broad brush

You judge people by their profession?

What's yours?

[cantbeserious]

233. Yes - Politicians Are Suspect By Definition - Corporations Expect Favors For Their Contributions

eom

[treestar]

236. journalists have to get published, maybe they cater to the big publishers

who are usually big corporations.

[cantbeserious]

250. Expected And Predictable Reply - Truly Terrible Commentary On Modern Society

eom

[Doctor_J]

26. Yup. Big Media has again joined the right wing chorus.

Right on cue. we already know that the CIA had operatives at CNN. It would be stupid to believe the rest of the "news" outlets are not also heavily state-censored. Scheifer is first of all a close friend of the BFEE, and second I'm sure doesn't want his career to end like Dan Rather's did.

The right wing's infestation of DU has been a work of art.

[MNBrewer]

29. I think we all know why

As part of the "kill the messenger" distraction tactic.

Who cares what the government is doing if Snowden is a "bad neighbor", or fled to "communist China"?

[DirkGently]

43. He also rolls through yellow lights!

Buuurrrrn him!

[dairydog91]

47. Breaking the law is a sign of impending anarchy!!!

You let one guy leak information about a spy program (which, apparently, everybody knew about anyway), and the next thing you know America will have collapsed into Mad Max anarchy!

[DirkGently]

87. He is rumored to be a Whig!

[HardTimes99]

104. Well, since Schieffer is a Know-Nothing, it all makes sense. (Sorry, just

couldn't resist!

[DirkGently]

110. Wow. Nicely done!

[Wait Wut]

32. Thank you. That's what has been running through my brain...

...ever since the comparisons started popping up.

If someone wants to hail this guy as a 'hero', that's their right. But, don't compare them to true heroes that didn't run. Heroes don't run and hide.

[snappyturtle]

127. As far as I can remember about the MLK and Rosa Parks days they

could do their best by being very visible. Of course, I realize that ended terribly for MLK but he
wasn't going to be rendered to solitary confinement Manning style. Snowden risked this if he
stayed in the U.S. imho. At least in Hong Kong Snowden has some means of getting his message
out that he could have lost here. There's no comparison among the three that I can see but leave
it to Scheiffer to ramble rouse.

[treestar]

234. MLK, a black man protesting in the 1960s

Oh please.

And Manning is in the military, a huge difference.

Eddie already got "his message" out.

[HardTimes99]

35. Hey Bob! The NSA listened to your calls and read your emails. But

they couldn't keep from falling asleep while doing so, because you're such a boring hack!

They're keeping their access to your stuff, though, in case they need a cure for insomnia.

[bluestate10]

203. Your claim doesn't fit facts. The NSA doesn't listen to random conversations.

That is one important fact that completely changes the discussion and renders your sensationalism for what it is.

[HardTimes99]

230. My 'sensationalism'? I was engaging in a standard rhetorical device known as hyperbole, never

intending that my post would be taken seriously or at face value.

That said, you must have been asleep when the news that the government was targeting both the AP and Fox News' James Rosen broke in the days and weeks before L'affaire Snowden began.

[Iliyah]

40. WTF?

Seriously? People are comparing Snowden to these heroes? Fucking shame.

As to Mohammad ali, he refused to go to Vietnam and consequently went to jail. He didn't run to another country tho.

[galileoreloaded]

42. should read "old establishment reporters career frustrated by HS drop out w/ a $2.00 walmart thumb

drive and the access he could never wish for"

but nice try! you are getting a lot better at all this. calibrating nicely. you are really growing here on DU.

[HardTimes99]

68. Hah! I had failed to see the possibility of journalistic envy in all this. Schieffer

knows that Greenwald has practiced real journalism, unlike Schieffer's puffery for the last 20-odd years.

Excellent observation.

[bahrbearian]

180. LOL right on

[bluestate10]

204. Ed Schultz made the same point concerning Snowden today.

May be the far left should give up trying to compare a traitor who may end up giving USA secrets to Russia to Civil Rights heroes - who at their very core were true Americans in every sense of the word and who NEVER betrayed their country.

[Orsino]

48. Schieffer Invokes Strawman Because That's Easier Than Journalism.

Friend of the powerful smears enemy of the powerful.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

51. Nonsense

you do a great disservice to your handle by repeatedly muddying the waters of this vital issue, by trying to misdirect peoples attention from the real story here, which is not the messenger, but his message.

The government spying on ALL it's people is the real issue here, and no amount of misdirection will change that.

However, I do wish to say a hearty thank you, to you, and folks like you who post these distractions as they serve as very valuable teaching moments to inoculate against the lies spread by the mass media and the elite which do their professional best to muddy the waters daily, so you and yours provide a very great service to DU and it's readers, and I want to salute each and every one of you for your tireless service to the cause!

[ucrdem]

52. Agreed, the hero thing is over the top.

Whatever else he is he's no hero, at least not to the US. Other nations might see him differently. KnR.

[raindaddy]

54. As a reporter...........

“I like people who are willing to stand up to the government,” Schieffer began. “As a reporter, it’s my job to do that from time to time.

So why aren't you lambasting the government for their out of control spying on innocent Americans instead of comparing Snowden to MLK? Oh and Bob, as a reporter when was the last time you risked your fat paycheck from NBC and your comfortable lifestyle to stand up to the government?

[HardTimes99]

118. Wish there were a way to rec replies - nt

[Vinnie From Indy]

57. I quit reading after Scheifer called himself a reporter

He is an errand boy sent by grocery clerks.

As for Snowden, he is now simply one small aspect of a much larger story. He is no longer the focus and he his motives are irrelevant to the discussion of the NSA surveillance state.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

93. Thanks. Completely agree.

[Vietnameravet]

58. Very good point!

What right does he have to take it upon himself to do this? None..

[Scuba]

71. Not a right, a responsibility.

[Babel_17]

66. I guess we've already forgotten about Manning's captivity

I'm assuming Snowden isn't an idiot and knows he could get the same treatment Manning got (gets).

Correct me if I'm wrong, everyone, but that was considered torture, yes?

So, all respect to Schieffer but I think he forgot about today's rules.

Can you imagine the rioting in the streets if Dr. King or Parks got treated like that?

So yeah, really bad analogy on Schieffer's part.

And God help us if the standard you have to live up to are that of legends like King or Parks if you want to be a whistle blower.

Imagine that if you wanted to be a journalist, and give commentary on TV, you had to equal the performances of Edward R. Murrow. Television would be devoid of content.

Which is not to say Snowden is above criticism. It's just that the sanctimonious, and ill thought out, kind coming from the villagers inside the beltway adds nothing to the ongoing discussions.

Snowden could be as shady as hell. But that's irrelevant to Schieffer's attack. That attack has more to do with Snowden being a story the villagers find hard to deal with.

[Scuba]

69. Scheiffer must never have heard about what happened to MLK.

[graham4anything]

105. Had it been a conspiracy,quite possible today's security could have prevented it

same with the JFK one.

Perhaps if it had been international terrorism both could have been prevented.

Shame people don't see it.

One thing Dr. King never did was, he wasn't in it for ego, and Dr. King never whined about himself.

Plus, Dr. King worked with the great LBJ in unison, he did not tear down the democratic president.

[kentuck]

75. Rosa and Martin were heroes in a different way.

Not a fair comparison by Schieffer.

[adric mutelovic]

76. What did those two leak?

I don't remember. As for Schieffer "destroyed" Snowden, it would be more fair to "destroy" someone who is there to debate you.

Another favorite of internet people is "X eviscerates Y," where Y is a person the OP does not like.

[The CCC]

77. Schieffer Destroys Snowden: ‘I Don’t Remember Martin Luther King Jr. Or Rosa Parks Hiding In China’

We all want our heroes to be as pure as the driven snow. But they're not. They are just humans just like the rest of us. Considering what Bush and now Obama have done to whistles blowers and other perceived enemies of the State. This young man has plenty to fear from his government.

[JackRiddler]

78. I don't remember them being tortured in a military prison, either.

Schieffer would be so much happier if Snowden was locked up and he could ignore it for a few years, as he did with Manning.

The comparison is ridiculous. Snowden is a whistleblower, not a movement leader. I do remember leaders of past movements choosing the means to be highly effective for their cause. Snowden has done that, and this is why the establishment and its servile punditry and our local wounded followers of the authoritarian corporate state are so enraged.

[dkf]

86. Yeah because the government was hiding disparate treatment of black people. Lol.

That's why MLK would have needed to flee to expose this wrongdoing right?

Boy he is such a tool.

[Apophis]

88. You're pathetic.

[TheKentuckian]

89. and after Snowden is ripped asunder atom by atom the dragnet surveillance (or worse) pink elephant

still is there.

This is an indicator of an intimidation technique.

I wondered at the fierce urgency of tearing down a guy sometimes in the most petty ways when the action is not only admitted but crowed about in response. What is the point? The other shoe factor? Maybe but once the media is driving the eyes create a pressurized environment and shit often comes out well beyond any shoe the leaker can drop.

Finally I get it! It is a message to other would be leakers that you will be de-constructed before the world and get the Manny Goldstein treatment as step one in retaliation.

The room stuffing pink elephant will remain and it is hard to make folks stop seeing it once they do.

[Leopolds Ghost]

215. Pink elephant?

I have been gone for awhile so perhaps I'm missing the reference here.

[rug]

92. I remember both of the being put in jail.

[bigtree]

96. so, Schieffer's a reporter?

. . . who knew?

[The Second Stone]

100. I do remember them jailing Rosa Parks and killing MLK

but, hey, what's a counter-example between friends who are distracting between the main issue? The government is listening to all our phone calls and reading all our email and texts. I feel so much safer now. Not. But at least it prevented the Boston Marathon bombing. Oh wait, not that either.

[graham4anything]

109. President Johnson worked WITH Dr. King. Together in unison.

[img][/img]



however, it was a Ron Paul/Rand Paul/Jorg Haider type extremist governor named George Wallace that was against Dr. King

[Leopolds Ghost]

218. Agreed, but keep in mind King would often goad LBJ

By references to Malcolm X picking up, with the implied "Aprés moi, le deluge."

Classic good cop / bad cop strategy. And LBJ was no stranger to political skullduggery.

[Doctor_J]

269. Agreed. Maybe Obama will work with Snowden to stop the spying on america program

[graham4anything]

101. Dr. King was proud of his name, proud of his cause, and fought against masks, he didn't wear one. nt

[Zorra]

103. Oh, my head hurts now. That is one really dumb illogical argument.

Like comparing apples to planets.

[MotherPetrie]

107. So! THIS week, anyway, Schieffer is off the shit list, LOL.

[Union Scribe]

112. Lol.

You're all trying soooo hard to smother the Snowden fire that you have failed to notice it has spread to the entire government. You can't shut down this issue now. You have failed.

[Quantess]

113. The level of discussion is going downhill fast.

What's next, a Lifetime movie about Snowden and his dancing queen?

[20score]

115. Have to call bullshit on Schieffer and the post. Very Rovian.

1. MLK and Rosa Parks were not whistle-blowers, they were civil rights leaders. Big difference.

2. Schieffer has never done anything that can come close to the type of bravery that Snowden has shown. Until he does, then this is a childish attack. No one has a right to push someone else into position they would never occupy themselves.

3. More Rovian attacks. I am ashamed at some on the left. Snowden is not the issue, government spying and the loss of privacy is.

4. Unless people supported Big Brother under Bush and Obama, their opinion is useless.

[caseymoz]

117. Argumentum ad hominum, pure and simple.

Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King didn't hide in China, therefore everything Snowden says is false! That's your idea of a devastating refutation? Does it sound even relevant to you when I put it that succinctly?

Not wanting to spend a year in solitary awaiting trial, stripped to his skivvies and on camera like Bradley Manning, makes him a liar.

Then, your source plays the anti-intellectual card, like an Intelligent-Design, Global-Warming denying, conservative:

“I think what we have in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us. I don’t know what he is beyond that, but he is no hero. If he has a valid point—and I’m not even sure he does—he would greatly help his cause by voluntarily coming home to face the consequences.”

Ooh! That uppity intellectual. The rest is just Schieffer being an asshole. After the Patriot Act and the NDAA, I don't wish this "justice system" on any whistleblower. Schieffer demanding Snowden "take it like a man" or be disbelieved is just manipulative and mean-spirited.

No, it doesn't destroy Snowden at all. What it does is prove how desperate Obama supporters are in grasping onto any poor argument and hyping it as genius, and how low they are willing to go attacking anything that sullies their hero. Oh, Snowden won't come and face the possibility of disappearing forever. He must be a narcissistic snob who will lie about anything.

Don't they vet people who work in intelligence weed out those very personality traits? If you can't trust that the people spying on you don't have serious personality disorders, and aren't prone to tell whoppers for attention, how can you possibly trust Obama's surveillance program.

[TxGrandpa]

121. Sure, Snowden should have stayed in this country and...

...have been immediately taken into custody and held incommunicado much like Manning? Already while watching CBS evening news right after this story broke, Scott Pelley gave a brief rundown on Snowden and especially about his being in the military made it sound as if he couldn't take it instead of mentioning he had a training accident.

[sweetloukillbot]

184. Manning was incommunicado now?

Then why were all these people able to go see him and tell us what awful treatment he was recieving. Jesus...

[Tarheel_Dem]

238. You probably need to look up the meaning of "incommunicado". Just sayin'......

[TxGrandpa]

268. Both posts noted....

...but I still believe that he was more or less deprived of his rights and mistreated in violation of the UCMJ.

Would Snowden be treated any differently if he was taken into custody?

[East Coast Pirate]

123. MLK and Rosa Parks didn't face life in prison.

What would be the point of him hanging around for that?

[WinkyDink]

124. WTH CARES what Bob "My Brother Was an Ambassador For Dubya" Schieffer says????

[forestpath]

126. SCHIEFFER? ROFL.

[Beacool]

128. I agree, I don't see him and the other leakers of classified information as heroes.

“I think what we have in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us. I don’t know what he is beyond that, but he is no hero. If he has a valid point—and I’m not even sure he does—he would greatly help his cause by voluntarily coming home to face the consequences.”

Why did he go to Hong Kong of all places? Snowden knows that it's under the mainland's control. He might as well have gone to Beijing and betray the US directly to the Chinese. Is he naïve enough not to realize that China has been hacking the US for years or he just doesn't care?

[Jamaal510]

129. Snowden probably wouldn't want to be compared to those two, anyway,

seeing as how he once supported a man for president who wants to do away with the Civil Rights Act and essentially undo Jr's legacy.

[blackspade]

131. Why is this relevant to the fact that the NSA has been spying without warrants?

So what if Snowden is a dupe, rube, plant, whistleblower, or whatever.
The M$M wants this to be about the messenger rather than the message.

Agree though, this guy is no MLK or Rosa Parks.

[Downtown Hound]

134. Who gives a shit?

I wonder how many people would just so willingly accept life imprisonment out of some bullshit obligation?

[TomClash]

137. Edward Snowden is not Rosa Parks or Dr. King . . .

. . . so it is ok for the NSA to spy on us.

And Schieffer is the first guy I have heard make the Snowden/Parks/King comparison.

[ProSense]

141. What the hell is

"Edward Snowden is not Rosa Parks or Dr. King . . .. . . so it is ok for the NSA to spy on us. "

...is with that straw man (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023027761)?

No, it's "ok for the NSA to spy on us"

In fact, it's illegal for the NSA to spy on us.

Another misleading media report implies that warrantless wiretapping is legal.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023026724

I think that Snowden releasing this information and the inaccuracies that were part of the initial reports, his bogus claims and his fleeing to Hong Kong makes him a Coward. It's patently absurd to compare him to MLK and Rosa Parks.

His actions in Hong Kong don't help his case.

[TomClash]

156. You are attacking the messenger

And ignoring the message. Who cares about Snowden? It is what he and many others say that matters.

You spend a lot of time and energy defending President Obama. It's not about him. It's not about Snowden either. Or Congress. Or the FISA court. It's about the NSA and what it is doing.

[ProSense]

158. Well,

"You are attacking the messenger

And ignoring the message. Who cares about Snowden? It is what he and many others say that matters.

You spend a lot of time and energy defending President Obama. It's not about him. It's not about Snowden either. Or Congress. Or the FISA court. It's about the NSA and what it is doing."

...if no one "cares about Snowden" and it's not about him, why are people creating straw men in his defense and posting that he is a hero?

[TomClash]

192. I don't know and don't care

But I think you just conceded he's not the issue.

[bluestate10]

221. Not true. Some on DU made that comparison last week to defend Snowden. nt

[TomClash]

243. Reading is fundamental

Read what I wrote with a wee bit of care.

[Tarheel_Dem]

239. Nope. The idiot, Chris Hayes, was the first. Snowden is no MLK. nt

[tblue37]

138. Maybe he is all too aware of the risks of whistle blowing.

I think of Dr. David Kelly in England, who supposedly committed suicide (in very questionable circumstances) after speaking out about suspicious governmental behavior surrounding the Iraq war. Or US newspaper reporter Gary Webb, who supposedly committed suicide too, after reporting on something he believed our government was up to.

Whistleblowers are human beings, and we humans are definitely a flawed bunch.

Just because a whistleblower is not a saint or is not willing to be a martyr, that does not mean he doesn't have important information to share with a public deliberately kept in the dark about its own government's activities. He can be a fool, a jerk, a "coward," a misogynist, a narcissist, or any one of a lot of other unappealing things. (For example, Scott Ritter, the WMD inspector who tried to--entirely appropriately--blow the whistle on the CheneyBush administration's nonsense about Iraq having WMDs, apparently had a thing for young girls.)

In fact, the whistleblower's motives for blowing the whistle can be totally self-serving--even awful or disgusting--without necessarily making the information false or insignificant.

Of course, the more sleazy his character and the more suspect his motivations, the more carefully his information needs to be examined and verified before we take him at his word and start running around with our hair on fire, throwing people from our own side under the bus. But to use the inevitable fact that such a whistleblower is flawed to simply dismiss him automatically, without looking at his information and thinking carefully about it is unwise.

What troubles me are the posts that seem to claim that if Snowden has any human flaws, that means we should automatically dismiss everything he has to say. Unfortunately, there seem to be quite a lot of those posts.

[MisterP]

139. at least he's not some creepy compulsive-prevaricator keyboard commando

who's so slavishly devoted and gleefully sadistic that Yezhov would tell them to cool it

[pangaia]

142. Bob the TV personality says...

“I like people who are willing to stand up to the government,” Schieffer began. “As a reporter, it’s my job to do that from time to time...."
Bob, when did you do anything to stand up against the government? When did you ever really cross the corporate line?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

144. "Why exactly is the guy being compared to MLK and Rosa Parks?"

Classic hyperbole to make anyone who supports what he did on ANY level look and feel foolish.

[DRoseDARs]

146. I don't remember Martin Luther King Jr. or Rosa Parks being at risk of being executed for treason.

Of all the attacks on the messenger rather than the message, Bob's has to be the most offensively stupid.

[bluestate10]

222. No they weren't at risk of being executed for treason. They could only have been executed at

any second of any day by fucking racists. Big fail on your part.

[DRoseDARs]

240. And you won't be executed for treason either. You could be executed by a junkie looking for a fix!

I love playing a good game of Apples and Oranges with someone who decided not to form an honest argument, but instead chose to make an argument from emotion!

[Eddie Haskell]

147. Avoid false alternatives

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/16867-avoiding-false-alternatives

Like "Love it, or leave it." Let's discus the real issue and leave Snowden's character out of it.

[Cha]

149. "Letter from a Hong Kong hotel suite"

Snip***

Dr. King lived with the threat of death every day of his public ministry. The fact that he finally was assassinated is merely proof of that. But he faced that life with courage, with magnanimity, with forcefulness. He didn’t write his letter in exile from Havana; he wrote it right there in a Birmingham jail, one of many times he was in jail for acts of conscience. He didn’t abandon the people and country he purported to care about; he lived their lives, shared their fears and hopes, tried to bring justice to a country which had lacked it for so long.

Mrs. Parks didn’t hightail it to Rio to rail against how evil the US government was. After her act on the bus, she accepted the mantle of civil rights symbol, which came with its own dangers. Her home was here, her people were here, and she faced any dangers with the same bravery and grace that Dr. King did.

What both Dr. King and Mrs. Parks knew was what Glenn Greenwald and Snowden refuse to acknowledge: the US, for all its many faults, is perfectable. It can change. It can grow. It can evolve. President Lincoln knew the same thing, which is why he fought to save the Union, rather than have the Great Experiment splinter into its constituent parts. When you send yourself into exile, and yet continue to speak about the country as if you have any actual care for it, then you’ve lost all right to criticize.

I’m not sure what it was that Snowden feared. An open trial before a jury of his peers? He and Greenwald want to be seen as heroes, exposing US perfidy—or, more specifically, Obama’s perfidy. But they’re not willing to accept the consequences of their actions. The do it from safe perches, where they think they’ll be beyond the reach of the US."

***Snip

Much more from Liberal Librarian..
http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/12/letter-from-a-hong-kong-hotel-suite/

Leaker Snowden is no Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks.. not even close.

[Fearless]

153. Yeah they're not facing the death penalty either

idiot.

[NorthCarolina]

154. and we all know what happened to Dr. King. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

157. Snowden like MLK and Rosa Parks?

[burnodo]

162. That was Schieffer's interpretation

nt

[bluestate10]

224. Several people on DU made that claim last week. Schieffer was responding to such

bullshit from Snowden apologists.

[burnodo]

226. I disagree with that

Snowden may be a hero, but not like MLK was a hero

[still_one]

160. It is a bad analogy. Daniel Ellsberg would have been an appropriate one /nt

[dgauss]

161. If Snowden had stayed in the US he would be smeared by exactly the same people smearing him now.

The talking points would just be a little different.

[markiv]

167. Coward Scheifer would be calling MLK 'Uppity', if the president didnt like MLK

Bob schieffer is a boot-licker

[ProSense]

169. This comment makes no sense. n/t

[markiv]

170. yes, it does nt

[bluestate10]

225. No it doesn't. nt

[markiv]

244. yes, it does nt

[DainBramaged]

256. The anti-Dems have hopped on the short bus......

pay no mind to them, pay no mind, their disruptor beams cannot harm the machine....

[G_j]

179. Lol

seriously?

[bluestate10]

185. And some right here on DU have compared the loser Snowden to

civil rights heroes. There is no comparison, absolutely NONE!!!!

[Bonobo]

188. Vapid on an epic scale... And the word "narcissistic" again.

To even be talking about Snowden's character.

Irrelevant. Completely irrelevant.

And to see, once again, the over-use of "narcissistic"... Can't they think of another word?

[SidDithers]

189. DU rec...nt

Sid

[DearHeart]

197. Why does this hack still have a job? Why hasn't he been retired? nt

[MichiganVote]

205. He appeals to the elderly nobodies who watch his show expecting the 1980's to appear.

[dlwickham]

201. if read posts on here

this guy is Dr. King, George Washington, and Jesus all rolled up into one

[Leopolds Ghost]

207. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks were left wing. MLK was a christian communist. Your move ProSense

Oh, and FUCK BOB SCHEIFFER, I have never respected his attitude, and all other quislings to the corporatocracy and traitors to the bill of rights (which are Human Rights, not rights conferred on us by your precious authoritarian upper-class technocracy that you want us all to live under, ProSense). I have been harping on the issue of NSA spying for almost ten years. Bob Scheiffer probably wants occupy activists locked up too.

So, yeah, MLK was a COMMUNIST, which places him significantly to the left of me. He would have no problem going to China, in fact he got whacked by right wingers, after he came out against the Vietnam War and threatened to pull a Fonda on the Democrats



[font face="Impact" size="6"]YOUR MOVE NSA LOVER.[/font]

But that's not where MLK's fight was (and China isn't a communist country, it's a FASCIST one that engages in all the practices that the US is now trying to emulate.)

And yeah, I have no fucking idea why Snowden is in China. It seems like a stupid move all round.

I think I can guess what his strategy is, and it's a stupid one.

[ProSense]

209. What a bizarre post.

[Logical]

213. I assume you mean your OP? I agree. n-t

[Leopolds Ghost]

214. To quote Monty Python...

"what an eccentric performance."

[treestar]

229. Are you insane? nt

[Logical]

212. Nonsense.....

as usual. At least only one fucking link this time.

[Leopolds Ghost]

217. Re: MLK -- wouldn't the Berrigan Brothers be a better analogy? Plowshares movement.

Pacifists, risked life sentences to take a sledge hammer to nuclear weapons.

[The Straight Story]

235. And how did that turn out for MLK? (nt)

[jwirr]

242. I think one of the differences between today's whistle blowers and those before is that today we

have forgotten that the idea of civil disobedience as an act for protest is often still a crime. I am thinking of Thoreau when I say this as he made it very clear that if you choose to act you must realize that you will face the consequences. Snowden will be treated like a criminal just as some of the whistle blowers in the past have and he should have known that it would happen. I think Elsberg also understood what Thoreau was talking about.

[tomg]

254. I appreciate the point you are

making about Thoreau, but there is - I would claim - currently a difference. I was a CO and a court case. Although I won ( and it really was - or seemed to me at the time - touch and go), I was always working under the presumption of a certain level of justice within the system. That is, the penalties were clear. When I see, not that apparent whistleblowers ( and others and not simply Bradley Manning - there are those from the Ploughshares Movement such as Sister Megan Rice) are being prosecuted, but the ways in and the extent to and the purposes for which they are being prosecuted and the apparent open-endedness of the charges, I don't know if we can necessarily presume the same level of justice any longer in those types of cases.

I could be wrong, but for classic Civil Disobedience to work in a truly effective manner in what purports to be a democracy ( to whatever level), there is an implicit contract between the government and the cd and, by extension, all citizens. The cd acknowledges the right of the government as a democracy to create laws and, in willfully opposing the law also deliberately accepts the known (or relatively known) penalties. As much as the cd acts to reveal (or resist or bear witness or block - whatever) what it is that they feel is unjust, they do so openly in order to bring about a change to the law. The government, though, has to view the exacting of the penalty as the rightful consequence, while at the same time recognizing the right of the governed to change such laws. In other words, such actions lead to the opening up of the conversation ( kind of hard to have a conversation if you don't know ) which could evolve into change. So the actual consequence - or potential for the consequence - is willingly accepted as part of the contract and to serve the good of the democratic process.

In a non-democratic system or one moving toward that position ( no, I don't equate the US with Nazi Germany or East Germany, North Korea or wherever) I would posit that the role of the cd is quite different. There it is to reveal/resist/ whatever ( bearing witness seems out) and to do so without deliberately taking on the consequences because there is no correlation between the consequences and a notion of justice (regardless of whether the law, in fact, is in itself unjust). In other words, the implicit contract between the government and the cd (and by extension the people) does not exist. The purpose of the government/cd relationship is not to open the conversation but to shut it down. The purpose of the consequence is to strengthen the unjust law, not to lead to its interrogation.

I don't know where we are in this country. I like to think that if I was going for a CO today, I would stay and face the consequences in the event that I lost my case ( I believe that we only know what we are going to do in such cases when we actually face the choice), and those kinds of acts of conscience still occur and those acts of conscience still have an impact because of the visible acceptance of the consequences. Were I a whistleblower who had information that struck to the core of the corporate/informational/surveillance state, I like to think I would reveal it. If I did, though, I would book fast and hide deep. Staying and "facing the consequences" in the legal sense would be the furthest thing from my mind because they would serve no conversational or reformative purpose.

[jwirr]

267. Thank you for this answer. I have respected the COs in our past and would hope that we still have

room for the services they offer us when they point out the problems with our policies. I would probably hide also as we still have gitmo open.

[bvar22]

246. "They" shot MLK down in cold blood.

I don't blame Snowden for going On-the-Lam one bit.

THis little computer geek took on the whole Security Industrial Cartel.
I'll call it a temporary tactical relocation.
Better to live and fight another day.

[Marr]

248. Say, how did MLK end up again?

Not that I've heard *anyone* compare this whistle blower to MLK, but it's still a pretty asinine allusion for an apologist to make.

[tsuki]

252. As opposed to a narcissistic old man. The story is the not

Edward Snowden, but the information he alleged. Schieffer is attempting to protect his multimillion dollar contract by involving himself in character assassination.

[Bradical79]

255. That's a pretty weak arguement

"For one thing, I don’t remember Martin Luther King, Jr. or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who led the civil rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences. That’s a little different than putting the nation’s security at risk and running away.”

For people in the civil rights movement breaking the law and suffering the consequences was part of their protest. Rosa Parks didn't need to say anything, she wasn't exposing state secrets. It was demonstration. And Martin Luther King? He's was murdered. That's an awfully tall order for anyone. Does he hold the same negative opinions of Chinese dissidents or persecuted journalists who have sought asylum in other nations? I have no problem with that so I don't see how hiding in another country in and of itself is relevant to how I should perceive Snowden. Now if Schiefer wants to explore Snowden's specific choice of country and specifically how he revealed his information, he might have a good point, but Schiefer chose not to go for that angle.

"I know eleven people who died or lost a member of their family on 9/11. My younger daughter lived in Manhattan then. It was six hours before we knew she was safe. I’m not interested in going through that again."

That's a completely understandable feeling, but it's a poor argument for a journalist to make. It's the same thing that fueled the Patriot Act, Bush's ability to fool most of America into thinking the Iraq War was just, Guantanamo Bay, and justification for torture.

"I think what we have in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us."
Now he's just name calling.

[truebrit71]

258. Schieffer whoring for TPTB as usual...

...what a surprise...

[Scurrilous]

260. K & R

[Report1212]

266. Rosa Parks planned for months to make a media spectacle

People don't understand her strategy. She had purposely planned to make the biggest splash possible. She was also a radical leftist who strongly distrusted the government.

If Snowden had stayed in the US he would've been arrested and muzzled. Is that good for making the biggest splash possible and keeping leaks going?

[craigmatic]

270. This is a bullshit argument.

[Enrique]

271. ask John Lewis

to answer the question at the end of your OP.