As Snowden & Geenwald's story falls apart, the GOP has their next scandal lined up.

[FSogol]

From the Washington Post: Presidential trips cost a lot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-trip-to-africa-poses-special-challenges-enormous-costs/2013/06/13/29d9270a-cd29-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

while waiting for the far "left" to start their outrage too.

[cali]

1. wow. it says alot about YOU that you

think these are both just republican generated scandals.

One is- the trip to Africa

On is not- Massive surveillance on the American people.

Pathetic.

extreme partisanship causes serious brain damage.

[FSogol]

6. Yeah, something is pathetic alright.

Saving metadata does not equal massive surveillance on the American people. Your rhetoric has gotten loose and is running around wild. Clear example of ODS.

[East Coast Pirate]

12. You forgot to mention that they're free to do as they please with that data.

9/11 was just the excuse our government needed to hand the MIC a blank check. (Of course the MIC has been very generous with their cash in return.)

[FSogol]

13. Free, as long as they get a warrant from the FISA court. You know, like the law stipulates.

Oooooooooh MIC. Scary!

[RC]

26. A warrant? Some of those entities have their own rubber stamps. They can do their own "warrant" when

they want.

A warrant he says. That would be funny if it weren't such a serous violation of the Constitution. What's with all the secrecy surrounding all this? Secret warrants. Secret courts, secret data gathering on EVERYBODY, by out own government, regardless of who and reason for collections!
If this were actually legitimate, why all the secrecy?
The very fact that the government is gathering all that information, meta-data, phone calls, E-mail context, and who knows what else, is a violation of the 4th Amendment. Never mind that contractors are doing the actual work, they are doing it with tax payers dollars, on behest of various agencies of the Federal Government. That is makes it violation of the 4th Amendment. Who here gave the the government or the contractors permission to collect that private data on ourselves? And the contents of the E-mails and phone calls are private.
They are not spying on American citizens? Bullshit, they are. Not only directly, but they are also using information from other countries for plausible deniability. This whole thin stinks to high heaven. Why do you think there is nothing wrong about it? Do you have a pay check involved here?

[frylock]

36. of the 1800+ FISA requests submitted last year, how many were denied? ZERO..

FISA is a CYA rubberstamp.

[jeff47]

42. How many non-FISA search warrants were turned down?

In order for your numbers to have any meaning, we have to have something to compare them to.

So how many regular-old search warrants were turned down in regular-old courts?

The 0 rejections either means it's a rubber stamp, or it means the people making the requests get their ducks in a row first. We can get an idea of which it is by looking at other courts.

So what's the stats on other courts?

[MattBaggins]

24. Doesn't all that "massive surveillance" data show up on my monthly

cell phone bill?

[KittyWampus]

79. So you didn't call him cupcake or dearie… but you did say he had serious brain damage.

someone needs a time out from DU.

[treestar]

81. Keeping that database is not surveillance

Surveillance requires a target, such as a wiretap or just trailing someone.

[cali]

2. Oh and grab a clue

no, the story about massive secret surveillance of the American people and all that entails, will not go away. Of course, some little idiots actually believe that this story is about Greenwald and Snowden.

It ain't.

[FSogol]

9. Whatevers. Your passive-aggressive insults are laughable.

"some idiots" indeed.

[truth2power]

32. Cali is correct that this story is NOT about Greenwald and Snowden. If you are including yourself

in the "some idiots" category, then you are the one who should own it, not Cali. As they say, 'If the shoe fits', but it's on you.

The TOS prohibit calling a DUer out, so, one must often speak in generalities. That's not passive aggressive.

For my part, I would say that anyone who thinks the NSA spying issue is about Greenwald/Snowden is sadly misinformed. I guess it's ok to say that.

[Enrique]

3. the GOP has Obama's back on Snowden

both parties would like to bury the NSA story and get back to the partisan bickering, get people watching the WWF match again.

[graham4anything]

5. My eyes on are the trial of the cold blooded gun / bullet owner Zimmy killing Mr. Trayvon Martin

btw, one doesn't have to say alleged in that he killed Trayvon Martin, being that he admits he did it, and is not even
saying he didn't do it.
He did it.

and I gotta admit, I don't have any ego, but, what I said months ago about the media (alt media and mainstream media), well
it was indeed 100% correct.

IT's like Tidewater used to be the Mets minor league team. There was no one on Tidewater that didn't want to be on the NY Mets.

[graham4anything]

4. The only good thing about all this crap thrown at the President is, the Next President(HIllary/Cory)

won't have to deal with this, as the extremists are going to be rendered politically obsolete at the voting booth
in 2016 and by 2018 I predict a 6 to 3 democratic supreme court

80-20 votes in the senate/house will be the norm then with the obstructionists obsoleted at the booth.

and when Hillary accepts the nomination in 2016, standing on stage in synch with her will be Janet Napolitano, Elizabeth Warren, Kathleen Sebelius, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Deval Patrick, Caroline Kennedy, Gabbie Giffords, Al Sharpton and 100s of others

[MattBaggins]

25. I find your idea intriguing and I would

like to subscribe to your news letter.

[jeff47]

43. People said the same thing about 2008. How'd that work out? (nt)

[graham4anything]

55. Say it is a football game

and the good team is way back on its own 10 yard line needing 2 points to win

FIRST one has to get to midfield

and then one can think about bringing in the game winning field goal kicker.

But starting at the 10, nobody can kick a field goal that far. There must be forward movement, battles won and lost, to win a war.

[Katashi_itto]

7. Yeah NSA will fall apart, after all the 4th amendment is so passe

[FSogol]

11. Huh? I said the faux scandal will blow away. We're stuck with the NSA forever.

Too much government contractor $$$ involved.

PS. We'll need a much more liberal supreme court to change infringements on the 4th amendment. Blowing up the Democratic Party will not accomplish that.

[Katashi_itto]

29. Hmm ok, the title just seems to read wrong...my misintretation

"As Snowden & Geenwald's story falls apart"

After days of listening to DU Authoritians bend over backwards to say this is great stuff. I tend to jump the gun

[East Coast Pirate]

8. Yep, only nut cases on the "far 'left'" care about the

erosion of our civil liberties.

[FSogol]

10. and some only care about rat fucking.

[East Coast Pirate]

14. Many of the people you accuse of only caring about rat fucking

worked hard to get Obama elected in 2008.

[treestar]

87. But then according to them they stayed home in 2010.

Because they were disappointed.

[East Coast Pirate]

88. There aren't enough DUers to swing key districts.

This is a sounding board. It's useful to gauge the mood of the left but not to chastise the electorate.

[treestar]

83. We care but have a sense of proportion

Not everything spells doom

[East Coast Pirate]

85. Yes, some people are way over the top,

and some do have an agenda, but this is an issue that needs push-back. People who have done nothing wrong have gone to jail and been sent off to other countries to be tortured in the name of fighting terrorism. Not to mention the money that is being spent on these surveillance programs.

[KharmaTrain]

15. Welcome To The "Scandal" Fatigue Game...

...a new version of that 90s show that became so tedious. The purpose is two-fold. First...to try to taint this administration as being inept and/or corrput with one "scandal" or poutrage after the next. Eventually the rushpublicans will find something to grab onto...a new "blue dress". Maybe they'll find a video of President Obama jaywalking...surely he's broken the law and this will be sufficient grounds for article of impeachment. Eventually the corporate media is so consumed with scandal fever that its all they'll talk about...making it all but impossible for the Obama administration to push for any meaningful legislation. Nullification is at play here.

The second game is to innoculate themselves from any future scandals. They'll tire us out from the non-stop investigation until their toady is elected. Then...you see the "get over it" attitude again. Ya know...any time a real scandal is uncovered, the media will rush to say how "aren't we tired of that...we went through this during the Obama years"...and thus illegal wars can be waged and the economy gutted. It's worked before...

[FSogol]

16. Exactly. The main goal, imo, is to suppress Democratic voting in 2014. n/t

[KharmaTrain]

17. It's "We May Suck..."

...but "they suck more". Yep, part is to suppress Democratic turnout in 2014 and we're already seeing how the rumor gets the attention while the facts get lost in the outrage. It's also to buck up their fractured party and try to gloss over their own "philosophical" differences. The game is also to try to slime Hillary Clinton...a preemptive strike to try to make her vulnerable in 2016 and hope they create enough angst on this side of the sandbox that she'll be rejected again and nominate a weaker candidate. Being term limited, President Obama is now also a "lame duck"...and this is part of that process.

[flamingdem]

46. good reminder nt

[99Forever]

18. So the NSA (via paid spooks) hasn't been collecting said data...

.. in clear violation of the 4th Amendment?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[FSogol]

19. So, absolutely no US laws exist other than the Constitution?

And the Supreme Court hasn't upheld provisions of the Patriot Act?

[99Forever]

21. As expected.

Dodge the question. Some "laws" are wrong. Some "laws" violate our basic RIGHTS as clearly described in the Constitution.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[FSogol]

23. There are plenty of laws that are wrong. However, until the are changed or work thru the courts

and are declared unconstitutional, they are still the law.

Every single right has its limitations. You can't yell fire in a crowed theater, you can own an Abrams Tank, etc.
Courts will need to decide whether saving raw metadata is acceptable or a violation of the 4th. So far, they have.

[99Forever]

27. So you agree with the Citizen United ruling, eh?

Money is speech in your book? Corporations are people?

Because, of course, judges are gods that NEVER make bad rulings.

meh.

[FSogol]

28. How could you possibly read that into what I wrote?

[JimDandy]

53. Since our government has to first SEIZE our phone data

before they can save it, this is clearly a violation of our 4th amentment rights.

The people in these secret courts making secret interpretations of laws and rubber stamping secret orders KNOW what they are doing is against the constitution and is undermining our democracy, otherwise they would be doing all of this in the light of day.

Hey, any wistleblower out there who is willing to get their names out in public?

[treestar]

84. that paragraph has been interpreted extensively

the word "unreasonable" creates issues. There have been many cases in the courts about whether searches are reasonable or not.

Quoting the Amendment alone shows you know nothing beyond it other than the words.

[bornskeptic]

51. Which of those things do you think they've been searching or seizing without a warrant?

Persons, houses, papers, or effects? Clearly it isn't persons, houses, or effects. Papers can legitimately be extended to include any communication in a modern context, but those aren't being searched or seized without a warrant either when the subject is an American person. What's being seized is telephone company records of communications, not the communications themselves. Non-Americans aren't protected by the Fourth Amendment, so there's no evidence of any Fourth Amendment violation in any of what's been "revealed" recently.

[99Forever]

78. I've had more intelligent and honest conversations...

... with tree stumps than Authoritarian Apologists.

[Laelth]

20. That particular criticism of the President is lame beyond belief.

Last edited Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:15 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't think you're going to see liberals getting upset about the cost of protecting the President.

You might like to see that, because it would confirm your biases, but I doubt you'll actually see it.

-Laelth

[FSogol]

22. Let's wait and see. On edit...

Last edited Fri Jun 14, 2013, 09:13 AM - Edit history (1)

On edit: By looking back, this isn't really true: DUer's fell for the: cost of his India trip was too high "scandal."

[sulphurdunn]

30. What are talking about?

What does the cost of a presidential trip abroad have to do with secret surveillance of the public? Excuse me, but this smells like a red herring. I've a mind to forward your post to the NSA.

[FSogol]

31. Hah! They already have my post!

They also have your next response!

[randome]

33. The NSA can see our thoughts forming as they occur, according to Snowden.

Game over, man!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[sulphurdunn]

34. That's Right!

Hey! hey! NSA, take this post and shove it away, then pull it out of your ass on another day.

[frylock]

35. the GOP supports the surveillance program. why do you continue to post this crap?

this isn't a GOP scandal ffs.

[Whisp]

37. they should jump on the State Dept sexual assault/pedophile cover up.

that seems to be a real scandal. and if they aren't talking about it - that tells you a certain kind of news as well.

you'd think they would be all over it like shit to a blanket?

[hughee99]

38. It's weird because many in the GOP are supporting the Administration

on the NSA issue.

[xiamiam]

39. pathetic that you think the stories are falling apart

it is our responsibility as Americans to be sure that they don't..this op is ridiculous

[ljm2002]

40. I have been hoping for many years now...

...that Democrats would figure out how to control the narrative, so they could outflank the Republicans instead of letting them always frame the arguments.

Finally, some Democrats seem to have gotten the hang of it: You include special qualifying phrases in your reports, that subtly express your opinion without it being obvious. You make sure it is all part of a larger narrative, so you only have to salt your stories and headlines with a couple of code words to dredge up the narrative that has been planted. That sort of thing.

This headline has all the elements:

As Snowden & Geenwald's story falls apart, the GOP has their next scandal lined up

First, you have the lead-in: "As Snowden & Greenwald's story falls apart"

Says who? There are critics, to be sure; but Greenwald has responded to much of the criticism. Furthermore, many of Snowden's claims have not even been denied. The strongest technical challenge to the Greenwald story is the notion of the NSA having "direct access" to company's servers. But this is not really much of a challenge at all. See Greenwald's latest for details:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-partisanship-propaganda-prism

Next, you have: "the GOP has their next scandal lined up"

And there is the narrative, that some hope will be bought hook, line and sinker: that the whole NSA surveillance scandal is just one of the many GOP attempts to smear President Obama. And like any good made-up narrative, there is a grain of truth, so it is easier to plant the narrative in people's minds. Yes, it is true, the GOP is lining up scandals as best they can. But is this one of them? Unlikely. First, you need to look at who is on which side of this issue. It is really very interesting. There are conservative Republicans supporting Obama on this, there are liberal Democrats opposing Obama on this. There are far right Republicans opposing Obama on this, and there are centrist Democrats supporting Obama on this.

In other words, this story does not fall neatly along the ideological lines we are used to in present-day politics. So even if someone, somewhere, pushed this story in order to discredit Obama (for which I have seen zero evidence), it has gone way, way beyond that.

Okay. Now that we've got the hang of this narrative thing, let's try to use it to push true narratives, not false ones, m'kay?

[JimDandy]

56. Excellent post! n/t

[FSogol]

59. My reports?

[ljm2002]

73. Honey, if that's all you've got...

...you ain't got much.

[FSogol]

74. Honey?

[ljm2002]

75. Yes, it's a term of endearment...

...much like the Southern phrase "Bless your heart".

[FSogol]

76. Pretty insulting, imo.

Guess which term of "endearment" I'm thinking toward you right now?

[ljm2002]

77. I don't think it rises to insulting...

...but yes, it was a barb for sure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Yup, falling appart

Did the blue pill go down nicely?

You deny this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/earth-insight/2013/jun/14/climate-change-energy-shocks-nsa-prism

And this

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/13410

Damn partisans!!!!

[FSogol]

45. Isn't East County Magazine owned by the Koch Brothers?

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Nope

See how wrong you are. But I love the smear.

So instead of dealing with the issue at hand...you are right, there is ratfucking going on, it's bipartisan, and it is of the Constitution...you are concerned about one man, in this comedy of errors going back to 1947.

We are an empire...and this is not partisan. This is national policy.

Enjoy the blue pill. Go back to sleep.

[FSogol]

57. Word salad! I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Rather I pretend not to understand.

To your first question, NYET, no, lo. It s not owned by Koch in any way, shape or form

To the second, go back to sleep...you really are a damn partisan.

[FSogol]

60. I got the 1st part. Everything after that is a nonsensical jumble of words.

And yes, I am a Democrat, All the rat fuckers in the world won't change that.



NYET, no lo?

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Of course it is

You were told no in several languages.

Well, sorry if I put my country...before my party. I took an oath to the Constitution, not one man.

[FSogol]

62. Oath to the Constitution? Huh?

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Yup, imagine that

Enemies, foreign and domestic and everything...

I know...shocking.

And this intel apparatus is bipartisan. Try connecting a few dots...why do you think Mitch McConnell and Diane Feinstein agree...let's not mention Boenher and Pelosi.

It started in 1948 with a super duper secret intel agreement... Jaysus, really...go back to sleep.

[FSogol]

64. You claim to have said an oath to the Constitution. What are you talking about?

Are you an elected official?

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Naturalized citizens do

[FSogol]

66. Got it. If it takes 2 posts to explain one simple thing, I'll just

ignore the rest of the 1947, 1948 word salad.

Lo!

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Of course, ignore history

I will give it to you anyway...remember to tip Truman on the way out

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/13410

And bury Frank Church or 2000 era John Conyers.

I call this 911 derangement syndrome plus it's ok as long as my side does it.

[FSogol]

69. Saying "since 1947" without explaining yourself does not mean I am ignoring history.

More word salad: "will give it to you anyway...remember to tip Truman on the way out" & "And bury Frank Church or 2000 era John Conyers." & "I call this 911 derangement syndrome plus it's ok as long as my side does it."



Pro tip: Conversations work better it you you don't just throw about non sequitur after non sequitur and expect everyone to know what you are thinking.

Have a nice afternoon and stay hydrated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Don't bother reading the link

Has potential red pill effect.

[FSogol]

71. Sorry, many better things to read than East County Mag.

Came to that conclusion after the anti-wind woo it published.

[A HERETIC I AM]

82. It's a good god damned thing no one pulled the internet over and gave you two a slap.....

Because the above was pure gold.


GOLD, I say!

[Floyd_Gondolli]

48. When does the war with North Korea start?

A few weeks ago you said it was imminent.

Answer the question.

[Enrique]

44. both parties want to get away from the NSA scandal

both of them would gladly shift focus to the stupidest thing Issa could dream up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Or Syria

Not that Assad is a good man.

[uponit7771]

47. +1

[JimDandy]

52. This isn't about Snowden/Greenwald,

and it isn't about Republicans out to get Obama...it's about our government spying on us, in secrecy, against our constitutional rights. Don't conflate a trip to Africa with the NSA's horrible, immoral, illegal, disgusting spying on all Americans.

There's NOT ONE single person here on the ground that I've talked to about the NSA spying who isn't up in arms about it...dems, repubs, independents...no matter their political persuasion they are all wanting the Patriot Act dismantled and the NSA curtailed. Only one of those people actually said the "I've got nothing to hide" meme initially and, when it was explained more thoroughly what the NSA has been doing, that person dropped the meme like a hot potato.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

54. These issues are completely unrelated. In fact, one is a huge issue, and one is no issue at all.

If you're trying to draw a corollary between the massive spy program and Republicans complaining about the price of a Presidential trip, you'll need to actually provide some evidence for a claim that seems ridiculous on its face.

[Major Hogwash]

68. At times like this, the President shouldn't be spending any money taking vacations overseas!!!

Yeah, I saw that headline on good ol' rightwing Yahoo News this morning.

Yahoo started carrying entries from Michelle Malkin's blog every once in awhile, too.

Now, that's infotainment!

[treestar]

80. the right will completely overlook:

Former presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush also made trips to multiple African nations involving similarly laborious preparations. Bush went in 2003 and 2008, bringing his wife on both occasions. Bush’s two daughters went along on the first trip, which included a safari at a game preserve on the Botswana-South Africa border.

[malaise]

86. Ask those fugging ReTHUG scumbags to let us have the cost of all

the Obamacare repeals and the bogus investigations.