The Teabaggers must be celebrating!

[Just Saying]

Finally a scandal that Democrats care about! Guess if you throw enough shit at the wall, something will stick eventually! And who would have thought it would be something that's been going on for so many years? But hey, the media will play along so whatever works!

[frylock]

1. yawn

[bowens43]

2. The spin from the true believers is getting old

Obama funded us just admit it and move on

[Just Saying]

4. You're proving my point

You got nothing but outrage and snark. Color me not impressed.

Explain how a law passed by Congress in 2001 is President Obama's fault. Go!

[metalbot]

35. I'll play

Congress passes a law in 2001 that says that the US govt can spy and wiretap any US citizen it wants as long as they are suspected of being a terrorist.

It's now 2013 and President Obama has chosen to act on the privileges that the law allows how many times and when?

I'm not arguing that what the Obama administration has done is illegal, I'm arguing that it's wrong.

[Just Saying]

38. I can respect that.

I'm just not sure it's the earth shattering scandal people are making it out to be. It's old news. And as you said, the President is acting on authority given him by the Congress. (that's been going on since the last administration).

If people don't like it, get after Congress to change the law or tell the President to stop the spying.

This isn't new. It's an old story.

[eissa]

3. Odd, isn't it?

I half expect to come here one day and see posters chanting "I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!!"

[Just Saying]

6. I'm still trying to figure out

What the whistle was blown on? This has been going on for years. Didn't people already freak out about this when the Patriot Act was passed and then later in Bush's presidency when we found out what they were getting?

[CakeGrrl]

14. Wait for it.

It appears that we're in the "Be paranoid - the scary President is watching you!" stage.

[Just Saying]

24. But I don't feel paranoid. N/t

[CakeGrrl]

29. Neither do I. But we're outnumbered around here right now.

I'd like someone to explain what's different about today than 2 weeks ago.

[Number23]

59. One poster was running around declaring Duers as "enemies of America." NO JOKE

There are daily posts accusing those in participate in the BOG of being "unAmerican" apparently either unaware or uncaring just how much they sound like MICHELLE FUCKING BACHMANN.

Another one had an hysterical (in both senses of the word) post with a gillian recs where he said that you should reply with the 4th Amendment to every poster on this board that isn't screaming into their chins about this. Differentiating some of these people from even the most paranoid, deranged Freeper is getting harder by the day.

[FSogol]

78. Not counting the 3 or 4 calls for impeachment I've seen this week on DU.

[Just Saying]

79. Not sorry I missed that!

We can disagree on policy but attacking each other accomplishes nothing.

As I see it, Congress passed these laws, the POTUS has (continued to) use them and, if I'm not mistaken, the USSC has reviewed and upheld this before. We can disagree and even work to change it, but placing all the blame on President Obama is ridiculous. And blaming those who won't line up to attack is as well.

[Number23]

84. Exactly. Very well said.

[Buzz Clik]

5. We are not being played by Teabaggers on this one. Far too sophisticated.

This one comes from those with very high stakes and willing to go straight for the jugular.

[Just Saying]

8. Perhaps

Doesn't change the fact that they're loving watching the left go after each other over an old issue.

[Buzz Clik]

34. No question

[wandy]

30. Somebody makes a profit on all those NSA toys and goodies.. nt

[Just Saying]

39. Who? N/t

[wandy]

47. As to company names, good question. In general............

Hardware suppliers.
Software suppliers.
Hardware maintenance suppliers.
IT operations suppliers.
Cooling suppliers.
Facility maintenance suppliers.
Anaylst suppliers.
The firm that supplied Ed Snowden.

The NSA didn't get all that compute power down at BestBuy from the profits they made on one of their bake sails.

[Just Saying]

49. Oh I get what you're saying.

Our military industrial complex is so out of control all around. Knowing our history, they probably bought a warehouse full of obsolete equipment.

[JW2020]

81. Not likely

The tech the NSA uses is probably 20 or 30 years ahead of anything on the shelf.

[Just Saying]

83. If true, I think that's good.

Normally you see government offices using equipment that could be considered antique.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

7. It's a real shame Obama fucked the Democrats by spying on everyone, isn't it?

[Just Saying]

9. Uh no

The President doesn't make laws. See: Constitution

[DisgustipatedinCA]

10. If that is the level at which you think, we can't talk

I'm more into talking with people who have, at the very least, heard of an executive order.

[Just Saying]

12. Then I guess you'll be taking your ball and going home?

Why would he need an Exec Order when he has the Patriot Act and FISA courts?

FYI to the outraged: Your condescension isn't helping prove your point.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

18. No, I'll be staying here like I have for a long time.

My condescension is reserved for fascists who like our new Stalinesque setup. The exec order, since you didn't catch it, would be to stop this fucking abortion of a spy program. It can and should be done with an executive order, and should be followed up by killing the PA. But of course the GOP won't let that happen if they can help it. The executive order would at the very least stop the bleeding. He Pesident of the United States has acted in an extremely immoral and totalitarian manner. Don't give a fuck what party he's with, he gets no rest unless and until this shit stops completely. END.

[Just Saying]

28. Thanks for an honest answer.

I may see it a bit over the top but at least I get where you're coming from.

I'm against domestic spying, for the record. I think I ran out of outrage back in 2001 when PA passed.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

36. Thank you

I do get pretty heated about this stuff. Have a good evening.

[Just Saying]

40. You too. N/t

[siligut]

19. Can you imagine what it is like to try and stop a speeding train by standing in front of it?

This data collection plan has so much momentum behind it, Obama and his executive order would be pulverized. What we can work toward is moderating and modifying and we need democrats with power to be able to do that.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

27. It would sound kind of like a pen writing on paper. n/t

[siligut]

33. I know you know what a metaphor is

The unlimited power that this promises, all of the money that has been invested, along with the political maneuvering it took to initiate makes it a behemoth. Obama might just as well try to keep the ReThugs honest. After-all, it's the right thing to do as well.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

37. The Exec Order would have to be followed up with changes to the law, yes

But first things first. He needs to stop this now.

[siligut]

44. Again, standing in front of a speeding train

If he did try, something would stop him, he knows this.

[George Gently]

71. And if we were attacked while Obama CHOSE not to use these

programs?

Say hello to a Republican President who signs his own magic Executive Order.

And there goes the Supreme Court.

Democratic Presidents are not allowed the same tools as Republican Presidents?

Here's a gigantic book that everybody can read except the government?

Silliness.

[Just Saying]

74. This ^^ n/t

[ucrdem]

25. He knows. He had the whole thing patiently explained to him last night

in his very own personal thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2988340

And here he is tonight, innocent Andy, wanting to have the whole thing patiently explained to him again.

[Just Saying]

32. Nice to know I'm not alone

in NOT freaking out!

I'm just an Obama apologist probably paid by them though.

[Progressive dog]

41. You're not alone, except how do you rate being paid when

they made me work as a volunteer. I'm not allowed to discuss what the NSA is blackmailing me with. Have to go now, got to fill my quota.

[Just Saying]

45. Haha

Being paid to post on message boards would be great! Unfortunately I'm far too stubborn to stay on script. Oh we'll!

[ucrdem]

60. You'll have to celebrate without me

bye.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

62. I can do that

I'm glad to see we have a point of agreement finally.

[eissa]

11. Spying on everyone?

The manpower and personnel required to spy on a nation of nearly 400 million would be astronomical. Tracking communications to identify patterns that might affect national security is hardly "spying on everyone." Corporations know more about us than our government.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

13. Yes. Spying on everyone.

if they haven't gotten to quite everyone yet, it's only because they're still building capacity.

[Just Saying]

16. I was worried about the Patriot Act

Back in 2001. What's new now?

Still waiting...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

26. Then keep waiting

If the totalitarian crowd thinks that chiding people into accepting this East German bullshit is going to have a good effect, they're going to be in for a surprise. It's a principle thing, and it's immovable. Obama's entire legislative agenda can suck it for now. We have a constitution to save...from our own guy.

[sigmasix]

68. patently inane claims

Patently inane claims like "Obama is spying on everyone" will result in a loss of legitimacy for you and any future "the sky is falling!" claims you may wish to share with DUers. This meme is being pushed as an object of comfort and faith to the enjoyers of Obama Derangment Syndrome and loads of woo belief from "libertarians".
President Obama has asked for the executive branch powers to be reigned in on more than one occasion- Republican congress critters are the ones that refuse to allow legislation to re-balance the branches of government.
I'd love to see which republican executive has made the same attempts to restrain executive branch power during thier administration. That's because every republican president during the last 70 years has worked to increase executive branch power. It is very unusual to have a president that withdraws from executive branch reaches for power- it's even more unusual to have an executive remove power from the branch. This puts him in the company of great executive branch holders like George Washington- history contains facts like this that are irrefutable. Non-reality based partisan operatives hate this fact.
President Obama is an honest, intelligent and patriotic American- not a partisan robot of the Koche brothers and ALEC, disguised as a human being.

[Just Saying]

75. And I agree with this.

President Obama is an honest, intelligent and patriotic American- not a partisan robot of the Koche brothers and ALEC, disguised as a human being.

Doesn't mean he won't/hasn't made mistakes or done things I disagree with but I'm frankly happy to have someone I respect in The White House.

[Just Saying]

15. Are you getting any of this?

I'm at a loss. And I've tried several times (less provocatively) to engage in discussion but I've been ignored or got snark.

Idk if people think they're the smartest one on the message board or they just honestly can't debate this topic.

[treestar]

21. Exactly

I'm getting this image of the government spying on some old lady. Why would they waste all that manpower?

And is there no one who should be spied on, ever? There are some people out there who might be proper subjects of spying.

[CakeGrrl]

22. Yes, as if POTUS' biggest thrill

(well, now that Greenwald/Snowden have just opened sooo many eyes all of a sudden) is to drill down on the porn habits of a bunch of people on the internet.



I get popups on some websites based on online shopping I've done. I hardly think the President gives a rat's ass about that, and it ain't the government mining that information.

[LittleBlue]

48. It is, indeed. Very unfortunate he's chosen this path

A path that could really hurt his own party.

[treestar]

17. Scandal is a bad label for something that is part of the law

It is just ludicrous to call such a thing a "scandal."

[DisgustipatedinCA]

51. No. No it's not. Have you noticed the news coverage? Have you seen the amount of threads on DU?

It's a huge scandal. You'll be made to understand that in the full course of time.

[treestar]

52. A scandal is where somebody does something wrong

It has been established that this takes place under FISA, a duly passed law.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

55. Obama has committed grievous wrongs

He's spying on hundreds of millions of Americans. He wanted to keep that secret from his targets for a period of 25 years. His DNI is lying to Congress--not that Congress seems to give a shit, but people with morals do. Obama has greatly hurt the Democratic Party (not that some of the Congressional Dems aren't also complicit), and there may be a measurable effect in the mid-terms. The President has damaged foreign relations, and you haven't heard the last of that by a long shot. This is one hell of a scandal, but you go right on telling everyone it isn't, and let me know how that works out for you.

[reformist2]

20. Obama can still be a hero here - it's his choice, really.

[Just Saying]

23. Everything old is new again?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/16/AR2005121600021.html

The super-secretive NSA, which has generally been barred from domestic spying except in narrow circumstances involving foreign nationals, has monitored the e-mail, telephone calls and other communications of hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of people under the program, the New York Times disclosed last night.

[1StrongBlackMan]

31. And too many ...

"progressives" and "libertarians" that frequent this site, as of late.

[blue neen]

46. Everyone has to take their stories somewhere...

you know, with Firedoglake being in financial trouble...

[freshwest]

54. Yes, I just read this morning that I am part of the BOrG..

The president has hypnotized us all, we have no minds since we don't agree. But better than what conservative sites call Obama supporters.

Here we're just authoritarian swooners, fascist enablers, Obamabots, Obama ass kissers and the always popular sheeple.

At least they don't use the N word here, which I've been called too many times. Why does it feel the same, though?

Maybe I'm just paranoid.



Except you, 1StrongBlackMan. I think...

[JI7]

61. because they are probably the same, the same shit you see here against Obama

and anyone who doesn't hate him is the same shit i'm seeing in other forums that are non political but might have some political discussion.

i bet most of them didn't even vote for Obama.

[1StrongBlackMan]

64. Hell ...

many posting here self-describe as a "Democrat"; but only as the 3rd or 4th descriptor ... but never before after "progressive."

[Number23]

63. One newbie posted yesterday that he do his damndest to purge the libertarians from the Dem party

After all of the stupid shit we've seen tossed at this president from some quarters, I don't think he'll be alone.

[1StrongBlackMan]

65. Libertarians ...

whether on the left or the right, imo, are equally as nutty.

But that's the beauty of an alternate political philosophy that only (really) exists in the meeting room of the local library ... you can pretend that it's a legitimate, workable philosophy.

[G_j]

43. who the F cares

what they think? I know I don't.

[Progressive dog]

50. The Rethugs are ecstatic, the teabaggers haven't been told

how to feel yet. They'll know when they're given the signs to hold. They used to let the really smart ones copy the suggested signs but that didn't work well.

[Just Saying]

53. I would think the repubs would be confused.

They love the Patriot Act so how do they shift on it now? They have to agree with Obama (oh no!) or hope for extremely hort attention spans and inability to use "the google."

I've seen Teabagger's signs so I understand their confusion.

[Progressive dog]

56. Republicans know about short attention spans

and they will campaign on anything that they can sell.

[jimlup]

57. Actually I think I have scandal fatigue

I'm definitely in the "boy that cried wolf" mode with the Republican scandals but I think the NSA thing is actually a real scandal. Don't even recognize the wolf since the Repukes have falsely cried wolf so many times in the last few months.

[Just Saying]

73. I said basically the same on another thread.

The thing is, they know from Clinton that keeping up the shit slinging works. They might even come across a real issue,

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. How can every terrorist act from Boston to Benghazi be Obama's fault if Obama is overstepping on

fighting terrorism? Pushing this story undermines the right-wing mime that Obama is a terrorist sympathizer or at least soft on terrorism. However terrible the expansion of the surveillance state is - outside of limited circles - I doubt we will see many Republicans wanting to make much out of it. You got McCain, Graham and Boehner and several other prominent Republicans defending the NSA surveillance program and calling for Snowden's head on a pike. This scandal causes way too much cognitive dissonance for the right-wing mind.

[Just Saying]

77. Now imagine what they'd say about those attacks

If he HAD ended it.

[Initech]

66. But what's funny is this is a scandal technically THEY started.

With George W. and the Patriot Act, and now they've finally got a scandal they can turn around and use on the Democrats. USA! USA! USA! USA!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

67. They've played it masterfully

There's a reason they've spent the last five years trying to get you to forget George W Bush ever existed, and playing the old "STOP BLAMING DUBYA" card. All to get to this point. The "thanks for blaming the black guy" meme has never sounded more correct.

[B Calm]

69. That;s what really gets me, scandal?

Come on, scandal, what scandal? Exactly what is it that we've hadn't already known for years!

[sibelian]

70. If they're celebrating the fact that domestic surveillance programs are

now being discussed openly, that's fine by me.

I don't know why I'm to worry about Teabaggers? Have they ever been a serious political force? They're a side-show as far as I can see.

[Just Saying]

80. I agree they're pretty much crazy.

But they've been able to keep moderate Republicans put of office and others in office from working with Democrats and the President for fear of being "primaried." We should not underestimate their influence.

[rucky]

72. How about we just be consistent in our own beliefs

and not worry about what the kids think.

[Savannahmann]

76. That is not permitted in the modern Loyalty Test Democratic Party.

I'm surprised you didn't know that.

[Just Saying]

82. Tagging us as blindly following

Just because we disagree with you is the same as me tagging tagging you for blindly following the media scandal circus. It is unproductive and adds nothing to the debate.

As far as being consistent with our beliefs, as I've said several times, I'm concerned about the Patriot Act and have been since 2001 when it was passed by Congress. I just don't see how this is NOW a scandal nor how it's all President Obama's fault.