"Libertarianism’s Achilles’ heel"

[applegrove]

Libertarianism’s Achilles’ heel

by E.J. Dionne Jr. at the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-jr-libertarianisms-achilles-heel/2013/06/09/4dfd3c9c-cf8c-11e2-8f6b-67f40e176f03_story.html?hpid=z5

"SNIP..........................

But this inconsistency (or hypocrisy) contains a truth: We had something close to a small-government libertarian utopia in the late 19th century and we decided it didn’t work. We realized that many Americans would never be able to save enough for retirement and, later, that most of them would be unable to afford health insurance when they were old. Smaller government meant that too many people were poor and that monopolies were formed too easily.

And when the Great Depression engulfed us, government was helpless, largely handcuffed by this anti-government ideology until Franklin D. Roosevelt came along.

In fact, as Lind points out, most countries that we typically see as “free” and prosperous have governments that consume around 40 percent of their gross domestic product. They are better off for it. “Libertarians,” he writes, “seem to have persuaded themselves that there is no significant trade-off between less government and more national insecurity, more crime, more illiteracy and more infant and maternal mortality .?.?. .”

This matters to our current politics because too many politicians are making decisions on the basis of a grand, utopian theory that they never can — or will — put into practice. They then use this theory to avoid a candid conversation about the messy choices governance requires. And this is why we have gridlock.

.........................SNIP"

[immoderate]

1. Good article. I regularly deal with some Libertarians, which means...

... people who like to argue.

As Dionne points out, the age of the robber barons was as close to a Libertarian utopia as the world will ever see. And it didn't work well. It is faith based.

--imm

[freshwest]

3. K & R for great article and great reply.

[Marie Marie]

4. Libertarians, which means people who like to argue.

Exactly. I know a man who call himself a Libertarian. I call him a contrarian - which is French for pay attention to Meeeeeee! I say black, he of course, says white. So predictable! Too bad he is also sorely lacking in facts - all he has is his bullshit philosophy.

[immoderate]

6. If he fits the pattern, you will be inundated by word games, equivocation,

ad hominems, non-sequiters, and deflections, and fallacies. These guys live on fallacies. There's much more.

I am really interested in the ways that they torture the meanings of words, to get the semantic result that they want -- as if that determined the reality! Even though their tendency is toward atheism, their thinking in all other areas mimics religious fundamentalists.

And they can't see it or admit it.

--imm

[Marie Marie]

9. Wow, if you were on a stage right now, you would be doing

a spot-on impersonation of most Libertarians. Take a bow, you nailed it!! Everything you said above is dead on. Their verbal vomiting while trying to sound oh so intelligent. I end up so frustrated every time I have to have a conversation with this yutz. I just end up with that old saying running through my head: "Never argue with an idiot - they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience".

However, if you want to have some fun with them - just push them forward on their ideas. I.E., "We dont' need the government to do (whatever), the people can do that". Ok well how would you start? Blah blah blah. OK, well who is going to decide (whatever)? Blah blah blah. OK, well who will have the authority to carry out (whatever)? Blah blah blah. You get the point - just keep questioning them and eventually, their faces get all red and they get all tongue-tied as even they realize just how ridiculous their concept of the people or the free market running things with no central authority or financing. I swear, one time I thought his head was going to explode right then and there. Aah, good times!

[Sirveri]

13. The typical response I get is that the government caused the robber baron monopolies.

In a way that's correct, if by cause they meant failed to prevent and break up. But they typically say some such BS about the government supporting the monopoly and preventing new players from entering the market. Which is total BS, but they're convinced that's what happened.

[immoderate]

16. Certainly some land giveaways helped...

But the fact is that no "free market" as it appears in the diagrams, exists anywhere in reality. That's my typical challenge.

--imm

[FarCenter]

2. What are the key distinctions between left anarchists and right libertarians?

[toddaa]

10. "Property is Theft"

Anarchists reject the concept of private property. While they are not necessarily opposed to a free market, they also reject capitalism and selling labor for a wage.

[FarCenter]

15. So anarchists oppose all authoritarianism; libertarians oppose only government authoritarianism?

I guess in theory, libertarians would be OK with an extremely strong and dominant religious community which imposed order instead of it being imposed by the state?

That would be an alternative to order imposed by dominant economic interests. Other social mechanisms might also exist to impose order.

[Jim Lane]

14. One explanation, which I think is from the libertarian writer Jerome Tuccille....

Left-wing anarchists are outraged because people are being oppressed, and right-wing anarchists are outraged because their political ideas aren't being followed.

[JaneyVee]

5. Somalia seems pretty Libertarian.

[applegrove]

7. Pakistan too.

[rhett o rick]

8. I think Haiti is a good example of the aftermath of Libertarianism. nm

[Cha]

11. And, there it is..

This matters to our current politics because too many politicians are making decisions on the basis of a grand, utopian theory that they never can — or will — put into practice. They then use this theory to avoid a candid conversation about the messy choices governance requires. And this is why we have gridlock.

Thanks for this from EJ Dionne, applegrove~

[TalkingDog]

12. My standard response to the (mis) use of the word "Libertarian"

[DCKit]

17. Yet they don't seem to mind that the MIC is eating ~60% of our budget....

and that's just what's "on the books".

No wonder there's nothing left to pay for all our socialism.