General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI don't care whether you approve or disapprove of Edward Snowden's leaks. What REALLY outrages me
is that fucking PRIVATE CONTRACTORS are carrying out this surveillance. PRIVATE CONTRACTORS who are beholden to no-one, who work for PROFIT, whose owners amass huge fortunes doing the bidding of the MIC/National Security State - THESE are the people who are being given access to all this data collection!
THESE are the people who can spend whatever they like IN SECRET to influence our elections and our entire political process. THESE are the people who can spend endless money on lobbyists to make sure that THEY get Defense Department contracts, who can spend endless money on lobbyists to make sure that secret surveillance continues to be approved by Congress.
Do you really think this just fine, just peachy? Do you really think that THIS is how a true democracy should work? Do you really think that giving private, for profit companies access to the apparatus of State Security is okay? Do you really think we should just trust THEM?
I mean - SHIT!
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)It is not like corporations in America have ever acted outside the law or anything.
Cheers!
hlthe2b
(102,491 posts)who are likewise beholding to no one, no matter what horrific acts they commit in our name.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Moostache
(9,897 posts)The whole thing stinks to high hell and its going to end very, very badly.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)Also, any growth industry is where the bucks are. So naturally they would wish to push out the public sector competition as much as possible.
Something this episode, like the Iraq War and the Obamacare Debacle and the Wall St. (non-)scandal before it, should really bring home for people -although there still seems to be a terribly high barrier to acceptance - is how fully integrated corporations and the state they use to 'administer' us have become.
harun
(11,348 posts)boston bean
(36,224 posts)They can always point to a company and throw the blame and then give them immunity.
See how that works. Happened once already.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Regulations on civilian government employees make it difficult to lay people off. Technology changes, and so technology needs change. But the old employees are still the ones on the job. Some will retrain as needed, but not all of them. At which point you're left with someone who's worked there "forever", can't work on the latest stuff, and you can't lay off without moving mountains.
The government likes contractors for any "IT-ish" system because the government can fire the contractors at will.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)I'm fighting my ass off against it!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Why don't we talk about people? People with families, children to educate, parents to care for, people who get sick, who buy houses and then get foreclosed?
"Employment regulations" strikes me as a way to avoid facing the cruel facts.
G_j
(40,372 posts)because it's "legal".
boston bean
(36,224 posts)Quite a racket going on there
Texasgal
(17,049 posts)Exactly. Good word.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)the troops are private.
It's all about money. Not safety, not security, not politics, only $$$$$$$$
timdog44
(1,388 posts)And the private companies are owned by cronies of the people who wage the wars, or perform the security. All at a very inflated price. And the things these people do are outrageous. They have immunity from any crimes they commit. Ii remember a party over in Afghanistan where the mercenaries were giving themselves enemas with vodka and then another one would drink it when it was expelled. Now this is worth about what, $150,000 a year. All these mercenaries are, are former special forces guys who go back as "consultants".
Very much like the revolving door of government, lobbyist and corporations that benefit from the lobbyist who used to be a congressman who use to be a high ranking exec in a corporation who use to be - well you get the idea.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)are also being managed by private third parties, unaccountable to the American people.
There needs to be a serious discussion about these policies no matter what your politics are, and it needs to happen ASAP.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)so everything that the government does is ALL GOOD
treestar
(82,383 posts)Some people are using Obama and Government as complete synonyms.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)right?
struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)POTUS is head of the Executive branch, but that gives him approximately zero power over the contractors who provide "intelligence" services
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)ring a bell? Ex-CIA Director. Was there at the very beginning of the CIA. Did a very big favor for some people in Dallas. Was responsible for Iran-Contra and got off Scot free. Ex-President?
Ronnie Reagan made it legal for George. And you do realize who was running the show then, right? It wasn't Ronnie. He just looked real nice. Had some simple ideas like: Communism Bad. America Good.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)My OP is a challenge to the DUers who are caught up the pro/anti-Snowden arguments to think about the bigger picture.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)I didn't realize you'd lived through it. I was in SIGINT so absolutely none of this is a surprise to me. Except that anybody is surprised. Good god they just passed a law renewing this crap in December.
But most don't talk about the privatization aspect. They used to visit our unit. We didn't like them much.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Thank you!
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)popular with the public or not, the Constitution was written to guarantee that we wouldn't have such fascistic activities arise.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)If we don't object when it's abrogated, then our Constitution has been rendered inoperable.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Here is proof...Who can tell a president to "speed it up"?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Yeah, that video proves -- without a shadow of a doubt -- that Raygun was just a frickin' figurehead for the GOP machine.
"Speed it up", indeed.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Has been the figurehead of Wall Street, that includes Big Dog NAFTA man, too.
greiner3
(5,214 posts)If Leo were to say this?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Applications for SSD I remember were contracted out. It came of their believe the private sector does everything better.
roamer65
(36,748 posts)Google his name.
They outsourced as far back as the 1970's.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)You might even say they're untouchable.
The marriage between private contractors and our National Security State is truly an abomination. And you're absolutely right, it goes way back.
Have you ever read this: The Origins of the Overclass?
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)They no longer exist. Not since 1997. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas
So much for doing well.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I imagine that the end of the Cold War was quite heartbreaking for them.
I'll bet that the contractors of today will fight mightily against ending the War of Terror.
roamer65
(36,748 posts)siligut
(12,272 posts)According to them, I have been watched ever since. Yes, it sucks and of course I don't trust them, they are greedy, ruthless, shitheads. They also view Democrats as the enemy.
7962
(11,841 posts)Not asking for anyones name or anything, just curious what was considered "being wronged"
siligut
(12,272 posts)I suggested to one patient that he get a second diagnosis and when asked, told the wife of another patient to transfer her spouse to a different hospital.
rastaone
(57 posts)Potential for blackmail or insider trading. Very scary
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)we wouldn't have endless wars!
There would need to be a draft and we know how well that would go over.
Kablooie
(18,645 posts)It's certainly a cash cow for the private contractors that they don't want to lose.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)mbperrin
(7,672 posts)The whole notion of massive non-event related spying is repugnant and only more so being done by the private sector.
I got myself an FBI file in the 70s by writing a little too much in the editorials of the student paper about the evils of government.
Ask if you have one - they make interesting reading.
nradisic
(1,362 posts)this guy had only been working for Booz Allen for 3 months as an NSA contractor and he saw enough stuff to do what he did...
RainDog
(28,784 posts)what could POSSIBLY go wrong.
They had the foresight to include members of the Bin Laden on their board because, really, for the movers and shakers of the world, it's flat now, right? Or something like that?
We don't need no stinkin' protection from corporations. They're people.
Kablooie
(18,645 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)G_j
(40,372 posts)speaking of private contractors...
http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/monsanto-turns-to-blackwater-for-increased-security-intelligence-and-infiltrate-activist-groups-23474/
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)Been saying this for years.
malaise
(269,254 posts)Frightening
gulliver
(13,198 posts)It is obviously something that should be done by government employees. But tell the Republicans you want to put national security ahead of someone getting to make money, and they will just stare at you.
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)F A S C I S M
Kablooie
(18,645 posts)From the 2012 booz allen stockholder's report:
As of the record date, an entity controlled by The Carlyle Group, or Carlyle, owned shares of our Class A common stock representing greater that 50% of the combined voting power of our Class A common stock, Class C restricted common stock and Class E special voting common stock. As a result, Carlyle owns sufficient shares of our voting common stock to assure the presence of a quorum for the conduct of the annual meeting and to assure the approval and adoption of the proposals in connection with which this proxy and the related materials are being delivered.
4 of the board members are from Carlyle.
---
The Bush family, the Saudi Royal family, Osama Bin Ladens family and Donald Rumsfelds inner circle these are just some of the high profile figures who have played a direct role in the rise of one of the most powerful and influential and secretive firms in Washington.
The company is called The Carlyle Group. And in the wake of the events of September 11th and the invasion of Iraq, its power and influence have become significantly stronger.
Here's a link to a documentary if you'd like to learn more about the Carlyle Group:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/iron-triangle-the-carlyle-group-2/
A plague, a plague on humanity. The Carlyle Group.
I once questioned the number one reporter of the Washington Press Corps why they did not report on the conflict of interest existing in the Bush family's interest in the CArlyle Group while George W. had thepower to send American soldiers to war. (Carlyle Group being a defense contractor). This reporter, Ron Fournier, wrote in reply that he had never heard of the Carlyle Group.
BS.
tblue
(16,350 posts)The Bush family has turned our gov't into one great big racket. He is not the respectable, decent member of that clan. That man is the evil genius behind the whole evil enterprise.
moondust
(20,019 posts)Does anybody really think a corporation is going to sacrifice their maximized profitability by expending the time and resources necessary to ensure that some obscure, below-the-radar, possibly labor intensive, security procedures are developed and enforced, such as, say, full and proper compartmentalization?
I don't. But then, I've always had concerns about the practical loyalties of private government contractors.
Blue Owl
(50,547 posts)They see your every move....
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Though I await the calls that Bush started it! so now we should totally accept it with a cherry on top. Defending the indefensible is insanity.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)marshall
(6,665 posts)I was taken aback a few weeks ago to get a random job offer by email from a company that hires university instructors for Taiwan. How on eart, I thought, could they have thought I was interested, because I don't usually receive unsolicited legitimate job offers of this or any type through email.
Then after this story broke I thought about the fact that I call Taiwan twice a week and receive two calls a week from Taiwan. I wonder if this company somehow got a hold of my records.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)Very disturbing.
midnight
(26,624 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)In the push to Downsize the US Government the "brilliant thought" was to "Outsource" what the Government used to do with it's own workers. So Outsourcing was the New Thing. It would "supposedly save Taxpayer Dollars" and allow the Govt. to Outbid Contracts to have Competition.
Instead what we got is PAYING those Private Contractors MORE than our own Military, or Career Govt. Employees (who did get health care and some pension) over giving More to Outsourcing with Friends of Presidents and Miltary the CHOICE JOBS...
I could write more...but the breaking news tonight means that few have time to read...and those who already know like you and I are just trying to get it out there...and hoping a few might have memories refreshed about all this we've been through and what we have, hopefully learned, from the "Privatization and Outsourcing" of our Government to what in many cases is rapacious, greedy gougers embedded in the Military, Corporate Wall Street Enterprises who are using our Tax Payer Dollars to RIP US OFF with Privatization of our Military, Schools, Hospitals and whatever else they can pull off to make more money to enrich their own Companies/Corporations/Think Tanks and Wall Street Enterprises plus more.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Historic NY
(37,457 posts)they are all working for profit.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)great post!
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)If they were going to do such a thing as collect information, outsourcing the entire thing to a public company is too risky and too dangerous. I'm sure the politicians that set this up years ago are bought and paid for though.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)We are the effing job creators! Why aren't we getting all these phones, cellphones, computers and internet access, all of our multi-media, FOR EFFING FREE!!!!!!!???????
No, it is NOT okay. If one wants to privately communicate with anyone now, it has to be person to person, out in a boat in the middle of an effing lake somewhere!
WillyT
(72,631 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)glinda
(14,807 posts)to their attaining their private interests. This is soooo sucky on every level.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)And we'll never really know how much private money went into lobbying Congress to renew the Patriot Act. It's the goose laying golden eggs for these contractors!
glinda
(14,807 posts)e v e r y t h i n g
The amount of control having ALL info and communications on people can deliver ahead of time arguments for or against things by steering the public via Laws, media, etc.... even setting up "crisis" in order to spark conversations/debates in order to change Laws and Funding. That is it they are the Majority and have that OverLord power. Which they do.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)They don't work for us anymore. I see no branch of govt truly representing the people any more. They are all corporate.
Swagman
(1,934 posts)Edward Snowden or Bradley Manning is a whistle-blower or not and don't seem to comprehend or care that fascism is rapidly advancing upon us and these are all indications of how easy it is being done.
Fuck you I say to them.
Bob Dylan :"to live outside the law you must be honest"
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Pay no attention to the festering corruption eating away at our democracy...
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I could not agree more, who are these people who are spying on us?
And why do they need all this data? Is it for business purposes? Are they data mining to find out people's habits so they can sell them more stuff from third world countries?
Is that why they are fighting so hard to keep us from seeing what it is really all about? Is THAT what the law suit meant when they accused the administration of 'abusing the law'?
Is that why Bush was doing it also? How embarrassing for them if it turns out it was to promote more business for the Corporations and had nothing to do with 'security'?
Everything is about money. I believe this is also. I do NOT believe it is for our security for a minute.
And yes, private contractors, who are they? And who are they really working for?
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)If you haven't read this yet, I hope you will:
"The Origins of the Overclass" by Steve Kangas
Zorra
(27,670 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)greiner3
(5,214 posts)A certain poster is absent from posting on this, and ones in a similar vein.
Just saying.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)We're both still here, after all this time!
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)That you, me and "busy hands" Kurovski are still here causing trouble makes me happy.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)You're quite right. It's grotesque.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Thank you.
atreides1
(16,103 posts)Are supervised by government employees...which means that those "fucking" PRIVATE CONTRACTORS are carrying out surveillance with government knowledge!
His company gains nothing by his actions...
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)the War on Terror. $1.3 billion: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2982678
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)And I will raise you this:
People wonder how come the US has fared poorly in war since WWII. In WWII, there was a crime called "war profiteering", in other words, you were not encouraged to see wars as a means of getting rich.
Now, it is expected. Now even a Vice president can use it to enrich his former company.
Meanwhile, families go to Florida gun shows to buy their solider kids miltary equipment,like bullet-proof vests, things these 'contractors" cannot seem to do.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)kentuck
(111,110 posts)It is set up to fail. It is not a trustworthy program.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)stepped on and relegated to the trash heap by those who prefer Wall St rule to Main St democracy.
Want to find someone who thinks what is happening is better than fine? Who silently financially backs and profits from the takeover? Find an investor.
No travesty, no human suffering, no loss of freedom, no loss of the environment, no more foul and soulless acts could be committed than corporations already have, no more reasons could be given for anyone who even slightly considers themselves a benefactor of the weak, a crusader for social justice, a friend to nature or a defender of the Constitution to abhor it.
Like the song says, for the love of money people will steal form their brother, and boy howdy, do they.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)It's really our only hope to fight back - arousing indignation.
wandy
(3,539 posts)This type of surveillance involves an enormous amount of equipment and personal.
Thirty years ago a company I know of charged $300.00 an hour for IT services. Do you think they paid the employee that?
Their is much money to be made in surveillance.
Profit that would make a Ferengi weep!
Sad to say this is another case where we will have to deal not only with our elected officials, but also the people they represent.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)that's where we're at. The War on Terror is a major cash cow for all the Defense contractors - they will NOT let it go.
wandy
(3,539 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Democracy just got stronger.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)people understand what's really happening and get outraged about it.
SunSeeker
(51,783 posts)ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)willing to put social security cuts on the table to pay for this shit.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Thanks!
War Horse
(931 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Social Security? Not so much...
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Canadian National Railway began changing scheduling so that trains would pull into stations at 4:00 am. Such changes brought about abrupt reduction of riders which allowed the CN to drop a lot of train service and increase their trucking business which was more profitable. I see the same thing happening here. These private spying companies have a vested interest in manipulating preceptions so best serve their interests.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)hedgehog
(36,286 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Thanks for the thread.
k&r
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)emulatorloo
(44,261 posts)Makes me ill.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)questionseverything
(9,665 posts)i would also add,what a waste of money for us as taxpayers to be paying to spy on ourselves
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=10054
brad has been doing a great job reporting on this
and this mother jones article adds additional insight
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/justice-department-electronic-frontier-foundation-fisa-court-opinion
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I'll go read them as soon as I can.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I'll pop over to comment shortly.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)The whole thing is so fucked up.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)But it's totally by design: "The Origins of the Overclass" by Steve Kangas
DCBob
(24,689 posts)but I dont knowif this will be wasy to resolve. The government is very reluctiant to hire more employees in the current budget situation. Contractors are seen as a less expensive way to get work done.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Contractors are making PROFITS hand over fist. And they use that money to hire lobbyists to make sure that Congress paves the way to their making even MORE money.
The War on Terror is a big money maker - and as long as private contractors are making profits from it, you can be sure it will be an endless war.
Is this really how you want your government to run things?
DCBob
(24,689 posts)since they can easily drop the contractor at anytime but an employee they cannot.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)and never even think of using its billions of dollars to lobby to keep its position.
Do you really not get what a stranglehold the Oligarchs have on our government?
DCBob
(24,689 posts)blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)forestpath
(3,102 posts)timdog44
(1,388 posts)Fucking agreed.
ecstatic
(32,777 posts)what was going on. Well why the hell not?! You're elected and paid to pay attention to the bills you're voting for FFS!!!