Hot Water From Fukushima is Entering Pacific Ocean

[RobertEarl]

Last edited Thu Apr 25, 2013, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Based on satellite observations of Sea Surface Temperature Anomalies, it appears nuclear heated water from the destroyed nuclear plants at Fukushima is entering the Pacific ocean off the coast of Japan.


There are three uncontrolled reactor cores that have melted from overheating. That has never happened before.

And one of them had a good bit of plutonium. So we are dealing with a lot of unknowns.

What is surmised is that these melted blobs of nuclear reactor cores have burned down into the ground next to the Pacific ocean and have been heating the ground water for two years. Ground water there moves into the ocean at a slow pace.

This nuclear heated water then becomes surface water in the Pacific. It may only be a few dozen meters in depth. Maybe less than that since it is fresh water and fresh water floats on top of salt water.

First is a map of Sea Surface Temperature Anomalies (SSTA) from a week ago, from Unysis Weather. Following that is another source map from NOAA of SSTA.

First the Unysis map from April 7, 2013. Look closely at the yellow and red blob offshore of Japan. Note there is not another red and yellow blob anywhere else on the map.

<img src="" border="0"> Link: weather.unisys.com/archive/sst/sst_anom-130407.gif

Here is the map from NOAA from April 20, 2013. Look closely at the SSTA around Japan and note that most of the water around Japan is actually cooler than usual (anomaly) but there again is that hot spot off the coast of Japan, just offshore from Fukushima.

<img src="" border="0">
Link: ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/wksst/wksst.20130220.gif

This is what the satellites are showing. Discuss.

[unrepentant progress]

1. .

[CreekDog]

25. RobertEarl is trolling us all because he has been calling environmentalists "climate deniers" here

Last edited Thu Apr 25, 2013, 01:46 PM - Edit history (1)

His post on this issue are designed to create doubt about the damage Fukushima has done by creating confusion over the damage Fukushima has done.

1) He posted something so poorly thought out and so poorly argued, without supporting evidence that even the environmentalists who are anti-nuclear (like myself) are forced to correct him.

This has one primary effect: for those who are not experts, they now have to doubt the negative posts about Fukushima in general and unfortunately, this gives those propagandists for nuclear power an advantage by making them agree with conscientious anti-nuclear activists that know that this one specific thing that he said is embarrassingly unsubstantiated.

By doing this he has in this case 1) split the anti-nuclear people here from others who are against nuclear energy or expansion and 2) among those who aren't experts in this topic has created confusion about the very real and very well demonstrated problems Fukushima really has caused, but the blur of argument and misinformation on doubtful issues will cause confusion about things which are not doubted.

I'm not just arguing that what he's doing is damaging to anti-nuclear ideas here on DU, I'm arguing that it is intentional.

Second, he has been posting BS on topic after topic, including outright racist posts since he began to accelerate his postings in the past year:

RobertEarl (2,748 posts)
52. My opinion

Since our society is making progress and slowly dropping the wall of privilege, or glass ceiling, the society as a whole will improve. Be better.

But it is what it is and we can thank the wm, as a whole, for producing the easy life we now enjoy. The US and Europe have it very, very good historically, and imo, it has to do with the affirmative action the wm embraced and made good with.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2139421

RobertEarl (2,748 posts)
23. Yeah, and it is time to do this

Last edited Sat Jan 5, 2013, 07:05 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
Everyone needs to come to grips with the fact that the privileged white male has been very, very good for this society. That thru that privilege our human society have great things upon which our easy lives' rest. Our unions and our work ethic have resulted in all of us living like only the few kings and queens did 100 years ago.

I am a wm and I'm proud and privileged.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2139120

If birds congregate, problems can arise...

RobertEarl (2,748 posts)
4. Klamath river?

There's water in them there rivers.

Birds can fly and find water. Sure, if they congregate problems can arise. But birds are smart enough to flap their wings and find the habitat they need. Of course they can't tell if the radiation is there or anywhere. Neither can humans. But we have Geiger counters.

And the counters have found radiation all up and down the coast. And radiation levels are always highest where water has settled. Like it does in marshes. Don't close your mind off to the possibilities is all I am saying.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=593805

[SidDithers]

26. Was this supposed to be a reply to the OP?...

Think you might have put it in the wrong spot.



Sid

[SidDithers]

30. What the fuck ever...

reply wherever you want, even where it doesn't make any fucking sense.

Eyes indeed.

Sid

[SidDithers]

33. I did...

See my several posts downthread.

Carry on with whatever you're on about.

Sid

[RobertEarl]

58. CD deleted his posts?

You finally got through to him?

[CreekDog]

63. Sid and I agree on what you've posted here, there's no diff of opinion

my argument is with you and the nonsense you've been posting for quite a while, this among a lot of other stuff.

[RobertEarl]

64. You are a funny one

You are projecting yourself in a mighty bad light. Not even Sid can tell what you are on about.

But here you give an idea what your game is speaking of me:

CreekDog (36,794 posts)
50. I'm the lowest ranked host, I think I only have permission to annoy him

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112741728#post50

You are a host and this is your attitude? It is attitudes like yours that make DU suck.

Now, back on topic... You do know that nuclear cores are made to boil water. And there are three cores out of control and heating water. So where is that heated water going if not into the ocean?

[SidDithers]

68. CD and I have the same opinion of you...nt

Sid

[RobertEarl]

73. Awww, that hurts

The two of you don't love me any more?

Y'know, you too should just go an delete all your off-topic posts.

But it is funny that all the pro-nuke people just can't stand to see threads that put down their precious nuke plants and point out the obviousness of the danger nukes present to the world. One the one hand they claim nukes are all powerful and will save us, then when the nukes present their true, worst power, as we see at FUKU, they start complaining that nukes aren't that powerful. Weird stuff you got going there Sid.

[SidDithers]

74. Please, don't stop embarrassing yourself...

this entire thread is comedy gold.



Sid

[CreekDog]

75. Your lack of credibility is on topic

[CreekDog]

71. thanks for directing everyone to your thread --they will quickly see the issue with you

[unrepentant progress]

43. Well, whether or not you intended to post this in response to me

The back story on this poster is appreciated.

[RobertEarl]

90. Welcome to DU

Keep an eye on that Creek Dog. I mean, ya have to wonder, does he get paid for posting such garbage, or does he do it just for fun?

As for the current situation just look at this article:

Flow of Tainted Water Is Latest Crisis at Japan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022775755

Yep, the water from the melted cores HAS been flowing into the pacific and still is to some degree. Of course CD doesn't want to think about that, but instead goes on a tear trying his best to tear down a DUer who is just being a messenger.

What a load of bs he posts that I am a covert operative. Fucking crazy shit. Dog crap. Polluted creek flowing.

[unrepentant progress]

92. Dude, I've got enough crazy in my life

And the Cons spew enough BS for twenty lifetimes, so I don't need your efforts as well. Welcome to Ignoreland.

[RobertEarl]

93. Dude

My efforts? All I have done is report on what the satellites are telling us.

You don't like what technology can do and the information it imparts and let the tail 'wag your dog' and get all upset and go running to ignore because you get taught a lesson?

And people wonder how the nuke industry gets away with murder? You are a fine example of how the nuke industry message has clouded perception of reality. Ignore, indeed. Like an Ostrich.

[pintobean]

2. Do you have a link for this

or do you feel that you can be free to post total bs?

[SidDithers]

7. Heheeh...

Sid

[Phlem]

3. Quick

where's my Gomer Pyle impersonation.

Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!



-p

[RobertEarl]

6. Good old Gomer

Is it any surprise that 3 of man's huge water heaters, having melted down from overheating, are now creating a hot-spot off shore?

[Benton D Struckcheon]

4. SPAM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=41728

Stop already.

[SidDithers]

9. Thanks for posting that link...

where we can see the OP getting schooled on why waste heat from Fukushima isn't responsible for the billions of kilojoules of energy required to raise the temperature of that quantity of water by 2 or 3 degrees.

Sid

[hollysmom]

5. I am so finished with Pacific fish. n/t

[RobertEarl]

8. That may be a wise decision to give up on Pacific fish.

A thread awhile back told the story of a huge radioactive pollution plume from Fukushima flowing into the Pacific.

Here's the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2665641

[flamingdem]

10. What's the argument here? Why is there a

question about leakage from the plant?

I guess I missed something.

[RobertEarl]

15. A couple of reasons, flamingdem

One is that this is kind of scary. We never had to deal with such a mess before.

Another is that nukes were supposed to save us from global warming and now that hope is trashed.

And then there is the fact that nukes are just plain like a religion to some folks.

[flamingdem]

24. Yes it's incredibly important and people deny until it's unavoidable

such as when the cancer stats come out, not for Japan but for the West Coast.

I am concerned about the detritus arriving to the US coastal areas and bioaccumulation.

You know not everyone has had a relative sickened by radiation or chemicals as I have.

I really don't recommend it.

Thus, I am surprised that anyone would put down this information without using facts at a minimum.

[SidDithers]

11. And just 2 weeks later it seems to be gone!...

Fukushima must have stopped radiating heat! Whoohooo!

Or, maybe Fukushima wasn't the cause of the plume to begin with.

Sid

[RobertEarl]

12. Look closer, Sid

All the water around Japan is cooler than usual. But there is that Fukushima anomaly hot spot, still. As much as 4 degrees warmer than what surrounds Japan. Which is what I mentioned in the OP.

There are other spots where there is a plus 3 degree spot, but all those are surrounded by near same temperatures. Not like around Japan.

[SidDithers]

14. You have no idea about the amount of energy needed to heat that much water by 4 degrees, do you...

Seriously. No idea at all.

Sid

[RobertEarl]

18. Just surface water, Sid

And fresh water at that, mostly. You do know fresh water floats on salt water, right? So the amount of water, to the wise observer, is not all that much.

[SidDithers]

19. How much is "not all that much"?...nt

Sid

[NickB79]

34. So wait a minute, where is the Fukushima water discharging from?

On the one hand, in the E/E thread, you're claiming the cores have managed to melt their way deep into the earth, and heat groundwater that then discharges and heats the sea alongside Japan as it escapes into the ocean.

On the other hand, you discuss surface waters that are staying relatively fresh as the region being heated in this discussion. The only areas on the planet where surface water entering the ocean stays relatively fresh for a substantial period of time are at the discharge points of massive river systems, such as the Nile or Amazon, and at areas of melting ice where freshwater is streaming off ice floes like the Antarctic and Greenland.

So, to recap, it sounds like you're saying large quantities of very warm fresh water are somehow percolating upwards along the Japanese coastal seabed but NOT mixing with the seawater or dispersing their heat content as they migrate up the water column, which makes NO. FUCKING. SENSE.

[RobertEarl]

37. Could be

Since the waters in question are also polluted with radioactive elements there could very well be a change in how mixing occurs.

We know plutonium can somehow move on its own volition. And cesium is very reactive with water. In fact that is another theory on why the water is so warm: Lots of cesium there.

It would be interesting to see the data on water temps in the area and in the column.

Also just a few weeks ago the NYTimes reported on numerous surface dumps of Fuku waters that would become surface runoff.

The basements of the plants them selves are not deep and there were reports of the ground water flowing through those rooms where some core material left over from the explosions may be found.

And we know heat rises, so the heat from the cores would rise and heat water above them. The plants themselves are quite a few feet above sea level and the ground water after the earthquake is said to have risen many feet from the liquidification(sp) of the surrounding soil.

Hate to burst your bubble, but there is all kinds of science that can make sense of this, and we are just getting started I'm sure. Stay tuned.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. 'Could be'? You think a massive river has suddenly appears in Japan, right by Fukushima?

"Since the waters in question are also polluted with radioactive elements there could very well be a change in how mixing occurs. "

That's rubbish. Radioactivity does not change how things mix.

"We know plutonium can somehow move on its own volition. "

That's rubbish.

"And cesium is very reactive with water."

Metallic caesium reacts with water. Once it's an ion, it doesn't.

". In fact that is another theory on why the water is so warm: Lots of cesium there."

You have absolutely no clue about energy or heat at all, do you? The chemical energy released when caesium reacts with water is minute, compared both to the energy from fission that produced the tiny amounts of caesium, and the energy needed to heat up billions of tons of water.

"The basements of the plants them selves are not deep and there were reports of the ground water flowing through those rooms where some core material left over from the explosions may be found. "

You really need to do a calculation about this. Any calculation. It's clear you haven't even tried to contemplate the relative sizes of the energy from fission - even if it were still happening - and the heat needed for a temperature change of that amount of ocean. If that's too much for you, just try to compare the amount of water you think is flowing through the rooms, and the amount of water in the ocean area that currently shows a temperature change (the one near Japan, that is, rather than the many all over the world, which you seem happy to accept are just part of what we always see).

"there is all kinds of science that can make sense of this"

Time and again, the only science has been that showing you are wrong. Whether you are doing this to fuck with DU, I can't tell - now you've come to GD, I suspect you are. But you haven't made any effort whatsoever to be logical about this. Either because you are trying to piss DUers off, or maybe make the site look crappy, or because you're just too lazy to bother trying.

Either way, your threads suck.

[RobertEarl]

46. You are pro-nuke, aren't you?

And the fact that the Fukushima blew sky-high and melted down and are now burning uncontrolled is not something you can deal with, right?

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. I'm ambivalant about nukes; there are many anti-nuke DUers telling you you're totally wrong

It's been remarked that there has seldom been such agreement in the Environment and Energy Group about a nuclear subject. Everyone who has thought about the numbers knows you're wrong.

[RobertEarl]

52. Here's some numbers

At 250 parts per million in the atmosphere co2 has little effect on global temperatures. Increase that by just another 100 ppm up to 350 ppm and the temperatures are affected.

Just 100 ppm and things change.

Did you know radiation from 93 million miles away rapidly effects global temps? Radiation changes things.

What we are dealing with here, like I say in the op, is something unknown and never before experienced. And the science based satellites are showing a hot spot in the ocean. Why would anyone deny that? I don't get it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. Please don't embarrass yourself further by quoting unrelated numbers

This isn't about CO2; your claim isn't about sunlight (though, when others have been pointing out that is the major source of heating for the world, including the oceans, you have been insisting it's a nuclear reaction you claim is happening beneath Fukushima).

You claim the ocean is being heated by Fukushima. People have demonstrated that there's far too much heat in that area to have been produced by something from the station, even if it were still chucking out the heat from fission - which it's not. You have just ignored that. You are playing on the gullibility of a few unfortunate DUers who have been fooled, by an excess of caution, into thinking you have some sort of point. Stop trolling.

[RobertEarl]

54. Wow

You really are bothered by the satellite pictures, aren't you?

Can't even have a reasonable discussion about science, you just launch into personal bullshit.

I understand you are scared by the facts of the fission being uncontrolled. It is freaky and we sure don't know what's going to happen next.

[NCTraveler]

50. Classic

"Since the waters in question are also polluted with radioactive elements there could very well be a change in how mixing occurs."

[SidDithers]

13. My God!! Look at the high temperature blob off the coast of Japan in this survey!!...

'Course, that was from April, 2009. 2 years BEFORE Fukushima.



Sid

[RobertEarl]

16. Which you will note, Sid

That Japan is surrounded by warmer waters all the way around. Contrast that with today where Japan is surrounded by cooler waters.

Really, its all there in the OP, Sid.

But hey, keep trying, Sid.

[SidDithers]

17. The OP is junk science at it's finest...

Congratulations.

What's the volume of the water represented by the plume?
How much energy is required to heat that volume by 4 degrees?

Come up with credible answers to those two questions, and maybe, just maybe, people might start to take your "theory" seriously.

Sid

[SidDithers]

21. Fuck it. Here's some back of the envelope calculations...

To me, the plume looks about half the length of Japan, and about equal width. Japan has ~380,000 km2 in land area. Lets go conservative and say the plume is roughly 1/4 the area of Japan, call it 100,000 km2.

You say dozens of meters deep in your OP. Lets say 50, 'cause round numbers are easy.

Volume of 100,000 km2 x 50m deep = 5000 km3 of water = 5 x 10^15 litres.

You need ~4000 joules to raise the temp of 1 litre of water by 1 degree Celsius.

Roughly, then, you'd need 4000 joules x 4 degrees x 5 x 10^15 litres of energy to create the plume.

That's about 8 x 10^19 joules of energy.

That's just a bit more than the total electricity generated BY THE ENTIRE WORLD in 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(energy)

Edit: HTML doesn't seem to pick up the parentheses in the wiki address above, so it's not taking you to the energy Orders of Magnitude page.


So, where would that much energy possibly come from? How about volcanic or seismic activity? It's not like Japan is sitting on fault lines, or has active volcanoes.

The amount of energy released by the earth is orders of magnitude larger than anything us puny humans can put out.

Sid

[RobertEarl]

22. Careful, Sid

What you are saying sounds a lot like what the climate deniers have been claiming all these years. "...larger than anything us puny humans can put out."

Interesting, tho, in that the sun heats up the oceans quite rapidly at times so that means if we ever get off our asses and capture more of the sun, we will have energy to cheap to meter.

Imagine if all the trillions we have poured into nukes had gone to capturing solar.

[SidDithers]

23. No comment on the calculations?...

Are they significantly wrong?

You can BeFree to believe whatever you want, but you don't get to make up your own facts.

Sid

[RobertEarl]

28. Calculate 10 feet deep

Lower the temp to 3 degrees and consider that these are three nuclear cores that for two years now have been working up their heating potential.

Then make the area smaller and throw in the water heating that used to cool the spent fuel pools of maybe 5 plants and the common spent fuel pools.

Did you figure in what plutonium laced water might do? We never had that in the ocean before... not at any concentration. And what about the cesium?

Overall we must remember that nuclear plants are designed and built to boil water for years. And that being carefully controlled. Now the cores are burning out of control. Some say critical fission is happening.

All in all, this whole situation is way out of control. Way beyond 'back of the envelope' calculations. Not even the nuke scientists can tell us what is going on at Fukushima. All they can really do is guess. Maybe in 20 years they will know?

[SidDithers]

32. I'm only using your description...

you said "It may only be a few dozen meters in depth."

A few dozen meters is hardly 10 feet.

"Some say critical fission is happening."

Some say you're out of your depth.

Sid

[NickB79]

36. Working up their heating potential?

You do realize that the cores LOSE heating potential the longer they exist, right? They are cooling as the radioactive material breaks down and goes through it's halflife cycle.

Fuck, if radioactive cores INCREASED their heating potential as they aged, we'd still be working with the original nuclear cores they built for the first reactors decades ago. It would be an actual perpetual motion machine.

[Heywood J]

81. "We never had that in the ocean before"

If, as you say, the three Gen 1 reactors are not at idle and are somehow producing more than simple decay heat, which you claim is responsible for the heat plume, similar heat plumes should be visible elsewhere for other reactors which don't solely use cooling towers for waste heat removal. I don't see such a heat plume near "Man's biggest water heater": Bruce Nuclear Generating Station. Lake Huron should be reasonably yellow, if not red, on that map. It's a much smaller body of water to heat than the Pacific and those reactors have been running for decades.

Lake Ontario should be even more visible, as there are something like two dozen older reactors located all along the lake, plus those further upstream that are cooled by water from the upper Great Lakes.

[XemaSab]

82. That first picture is amazing

The vertical battleship blows my mind.

[NickB79]

85. That's a battleship?!?!

[CreekDog]

96. that's warming from Cherynobyl

[XemaSab]

20. Sweet Raptor Jesus

Are you for real?

Are you really for real?

[Rex]

83. I saw a dinosaur holding a Bible in another thread

his other little T-Rex arm was pointing at it and I swear he looks like he is smiling. Or hungry.

[grahamhgreen]

29. Kick for the fish

[Dead_Parrot]

35. Not only that...

...There are clearly secret reactors hidden off the coasts of Greenland and South Africa! OMG!

[RobertEarl]

38. Do you understand what anomaly means?

I doubt you grok that. You show no evidence of gokking anomaly.

Look at the maps again, apparently for the first time for you. You will see that around Japan, unlike the rest of the places, there is a very sharp differentiation of temps in close proximity.

The waters around Japan are cooler than usual, but the water right off shore of Fuku is warmer than usual.

In the areas you mention there is not as steep a gradient in temps as around Fukushima.

[Dead_Parrot]

39. So what is the magic gradient, oh Master of Grok?

What paper discussed the detection of leaky nuclear reactors by analysis of SST temperature gradient anomalies?
Or is this something you just pulled out of your grok-hole?

[RobertEarl]

44. Satellites tell the story

You can deny what the satellites tell you but that's not science.

[SidDithers]

45. It's cute when you talk about science...

Sid

[Octafish]

49. Condescension is so you, SidDithers.

So, so scientific.

[SidDithers]

55. Not surprised you found this thread...

Completely baseless speculation, like the fiction presented in the OP, is right up your alley.

Sid

[Octafish]

86. So please show me how three runaway meltdowns next to it are just a coincidence?

You can't. You don't.

You don't even say persistent, elevated sea surface temperatures next to Fukushima are a big deal.

You just say it's not there. So what?

Here's the problem with your POV: Ignoring evidence is most unscientific.

[SidDithers]

87. So how do you explain similar temperature plumes that were present before Fukushima?...

Science. You should try it some time.

Sid

[Gravitycollapse]

89. Shhhhh...just...just let them have this one.

Maybe it will keep Them away from other potentially vulnerable areas of science.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. Anyone who recommends this thread needs to go back to school

for remedial math, physics and logic. Seriously - the recommenders really ought to think, or read, before hitting the 'rec' button.

[Iterate]

42. It's difficult to calculate how wrong you are.

But since I don't think I've ever seen anyone be so wrong I thought I would give it a try.

Setting aside the physics of mixing and heat transfer in water for the moment, it's on the order of about 10^16, give or take. Most of that comes from some simple naughts even Jethro could manage. Still, 10000000000000000 is a bunch of anything.

So if you are deciding to reply and flip a coin, and the coin gets away from you by that much, it just hit the dude on the plaque on Voyager, right in the gonads.

Or if you want to post more crap tomorrow and get distracted by that many days, well we can wait, but we'll run out of sunlight.

With that much time on your hands you can calculate the sheer volume of boiling water it would take to produce that anomaly artificially. It's not hard at all to get a ballpark figure. I suggest you use "rivers worth" as a handy unit of measurement.

Isn't there enough real crap to get upset by? Or is that not the point?

[RobertEarl]

66. When you fully understand the situation, it is worse than you think

You do know nuclear cores are made to heat water. So you know these 3 cores are heating water.

So where is that heated water going? Into the ocean. And now the satellites are seeing that heat signature. If you have a problem with that go tell the satellites.

But I just love your signature line. Have you read it and applied it to this situation? I think you have not.

When you fully understand the situation, it is worse than you think

[Iterate]

72. I don't see that you're trying to understand anything.

I see obfuscation. I see endless repetition of unfounded claims, even when people have tried to help you with good evidence, math, and logic. I don't see any retraction when you're corrected. It's easy. I hope you try it.

That quote is from Barry Commoner. He was a poor Presidential candidate, a good activist, and a better scientist. He was one of the first to ring alarm bells about climate and environment. I don't recall that he ever tried to con anyone or ever subscribed to any pseudoscience.

So yes, the more I understand about how far people are willing to go to willfully misunderstand or deny, it's worse than I think.

If you do want to understand here's a calculation and a project:
Q = cp*m*dT

cp is the specific heat of water(4.19), m is the estimated mass of the anomaly in kg, and dT is the temperature difference. Very simple. The result is in kiloJoules.

You'll end up somewhere around ~2.7E+16 kJ. By human standards that's a lot. A "Hiroshima" would be ~6.30E+13 kJ, about 500X less.

Next, and you can't be squishy about "3 cores heating water", a number, how much heat? How much water? The last time I looked it was 2,000 Liters/min at 40 degrees being recirculated in cooling ponds that had leaked, about 170 qm, into soil. That's bad enough. The whole thing is an environmental disaster, which you're turning into a time-wasting comedy for some, and a soul-killing, set-your-hair-on-fire belief for others.

And even if it all went directly into the sea, you're still off by a factor of 10000000000000000.

But if you're not incurious after all, you can use the same method and calculation to show how much boiling water it would take to make that anomaly.

Please do. And show your work.

[RobertEarl]

77. Barry Commoner

He was treated at first pretty much the same as I on this thread.

The deniers said man couldn't change the climate. They said he was spreading false science.

All I have done here is add up 1 and 1. The satellite observations and the fact that right there sits 3 melted reactor cores.

As for how much water is involved and how much heat it takes, it does seem a stretch that the melted cores are responsible. But throw in an otherwise first time occurrence of radiation and location and it seems plausible to me. Others - not so much. But the others are the ones pulling their hair out and acting stupid.

[Trillo]

47. This thread, while the topic is serious, the interplay of the posters arguments is much like

going to a circus, or watching a show with a scene of Good Cop Bad Cop.

The OP seems to be saying there "is" a serious leak from Fukushima into the Pacific Ocean. The OP is not stating there "may" be a serious leak.

Some posters, however, seem to be saying that such a leak cannot possibly be happening, and that the data shown on the map cannot possibly be from the Fukushima plant, that the OPs interpretation of the data is flawed.

You get to decide which side is the truth. Either there is a leak from Fukushima into the ocean that is detectable, or there is not.

[RobertEarl]

57. It's gone personal

For some reason people are going off the deep end and just ignoring the signs of the water getting warmer than usual. I have seen no alternative reasoning for the evident sign of warming, and common sense is that the melted nuclear cores are doing what they are meant to do: Heat water.

[SidDithers]

62. Completely and totally wrong...

The OP is saying there is a giant temperature plume extending into the pacific from the coast of Jspan, that is caused by hot water created by the crippled reactors at Fukushima.

Just about everyone else in the thread is saying that the temperature plume is not caused by hot water from Fukushima.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Fukushima has been leaking.

Sid

[Octafish]

48. NOAA Sea Surface Temperatures animation DOES reveal a surprising thing...

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/sst/ani-weekly.html

...whatever is the cause, it's obvious something is causing a persistent anomaly around Fukushima.

DUers should remember that the atomic disaster is an example of just how lowly the world's corporate elite consider the 99-percent.

''We never meant to conceal the information, but it never occurred to us to make it public.''



NUCLEAR CRISIS: HOW IT HAPPENED

Government radiation data disclosure--too little, too late

The Yomiuri Shimbun
June 11, 2011

EXCERPT...

At 8:39 a.m. on March 12, about 18 hours after the earthquake, radioactive tellurium-132 was detected in Namiemachi, Fukushima Prefecture, six kilometers from Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s damaged plant, according to the report from the agency.

The detection of Te-132 meant the temperature of nuclear fuel at the plant had shot up to more than 1,000 C. It also meant nuclear fuel pellets in the reactor cores had been damaged and nuclear material had leaked into the environment.

Seven hours later, a massive hydrogen explosion rocked the plant's No. 1 reactor.

Attempting to explain the delay in making the information public, agency spokesman Hidehiko Nishiyama said later, "We never meant to conceal the information, but it never occurred to us to make it public."

CONTINUED...

http://web.archive.org/web/20120118073750/http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110610005496.htm

The story above is from the wayback machine web archive. As in many places, it's getting harder and harder to find good information on Fukushima and radiation. Thank you, RobertEarl for helping shed light on this.

BTW: The condescension on this thread makes obvious more than just where people stand.

[Iterate]

61. Was that tragedy not bad enough?

Does it need such a ridiculous and impossible exaggeration as from the OP, an exaggeration that undercuts understanding of what happened and distracts attention from the more serious issue of CO2? The OP deserves ridicule, and BTW, the condescension is coming from all sides of the electricity source debate.

If anyone wants to understand the anomaly, they might begin here:



The warm Kiroshio Current has shifted east and the N. Pacific Current south. That's reduced mixing in the East China Sea, the Sea of Japan, and the Sea of Okhotsk, leaving them colder. It strands eddies of warmer water against the Japanese east coast. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Fukushima and is the only explanation I can see right now of a size large enough to explain this somewhat ordinary anomaly.

Is this CO2 forced? I don't know, and I wouldn't assume unless I saw some reviewed papers. But you might consider it the next time you drive, turning out one grocery bag full of CO2 per second.

[Trillo]

56. In #52, a question, "Why would anyone deny that?"

Because of responsibility, more specifically, desire to avoid responsibilities incurred as the result of a release from a nuclear plant that was supposedly not designed to be a weapon of destruction, but through "Acts of God" (legal, not religious phrase), became one. Complicating the "peaceful use hypothesis" of the nuclear power plant, are the reports that one of the reactors was MOX, which according to wikipedia, is designed to recycle weapons grade nuclear material. Thus, the lines between whether this reactor was solely intended for peaceful purposes, are blurred, perhaps significantly. If the plant was burning MOX fuel, recycling weapons grade nuclear material, wikipedia says some have pointed out how this enables nuclear weapon proliferation.

From corporate's perspective, avoiding responsibility is probably primarily about prevention of loss of money, and minimizing further financial loss wherever possible. From humans perspectives, this is about how long life as we know it will continue (not necessarily limited to only human life, as many of us have a great respect, even awe, for nature), and for people and workers near the plant, about how much their own lives may be shortened as a direct result of close exposure.

Thus, the commonality between the two views is, the incident is primarily about "life and death".

If the Fukushima incident has poisoned the Pacific Ocean with long half-life particles, it seems there would be significant responsibility that life will assume in a non-monetary sense. We already know that the Capitalist system exploits environmental resources.

That's why "they" would deny this.

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. No, don't let yourself be misled by the bullshit claim in the OP

Take a look at the thread they started in Environment and Energy about this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/112741728

The anti-nuke regulars in the forum agree that it's complete rubbish. They are wodnering if he is trying to discredit the anti-nuke argument on purpose by being ridiculous. There is no way that the amount of nuclear fuel at Fukushima could produce that much heat. The hand-waving "what if the fresh water doesn't mix " doesn't help in the slightest - there is no massive river of fresh water flowing through Fukushima, and it would have to be huge to carry that amount of heat (after all, it can't heat more than 100 degrees C without boiling).

RobertEarl has not got the faintest idea of what he's talking about. He has ignored all the actual rebuttals of his claims. It's embarrassing that anyone takes him seriously here.

[zappaman]

59. Heh.

Be Free to keep embarrassing yourself.

[NickB79]

65. This thread is good enough for an entire Alex Jones episode

Conspiracy theory and pseudoscience woo to the max, baby!

[RobertEarl]

67. Alex Jones controls satellites?

If you have a problem with the satellites, you have a problem we can't help you with.

Imagine that, nuclear power plants are heating water and the satellites see the hat signatures. Amazing to some, simple science for everyone else.

[zappaman]

69. Heh.

Be Free to pretend to not understand why you are being ridiculed.
Or are you not pretending...?

[SidDithers]

70. Nobody is disputing that the satalite shows a temperature plume...

So you can shelve that attempt at misdirection.

What's being disputed is your ridiculous claim that Fukushima is causing the plume.



Sid

[RobertEarl]

76. What we are dealing with is man made lava

When nuclear cores melt, as 3 have done at Fukushima, what we have then is a man made lava. This lava, also known as corium, can melt through concrete as fast as 12 inches in one hour.

At Chernobyl, they dug down under the basement and found that the corium had melted through the concrete underneath. It may be a decade or more before the corium at Fukushima can be found.

[RobertEarl]

78. Images of Fukushima Radioactive Releases

Here are two images showing some of the radioactive materials released from Fukushima after the March 11, 2011, destruction of the 4 Fukushima nuclear power plants.

A lot of this was deposited in the waters off the coast. Some made it to the US and some blew back onto Japan. Not clear is how much came from the emergency cooling water that was used in pumping sea water into the plants for emergency cooling. Water that flowed out of the plants onto the ground and back into the ocean.

[SidDithers]

79. Your OP was about heated water...

but I understand completely why you'd want to try to change the subject.

Sid

[RobertEarl]

80. It is interesting, from a science viewpoint

That part of the warming in the ocean is not just from heated water but also a thermal reaction induced by the radionuclides released in copious amounts over the last two years.

[Rex]

84. Here is a forbes article on it from 2011.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2011/12/12/fukushima-ocean-radiation-was-50-million-times-above-normal-but-no-threat-scientists/

[Gravitycollapse]

88. Discuss? The OP is implying that a very tiny amount of energy is heating a goddamn ocean.

What is there to discuss other than the fact that the entire premise of this OP is laughably unscientific?

[RobertEarl]

91. You have had a collapse in comprehension

No claim was made that this radioactive water is heating the whole ocean.

Your collapse in comprehension is something you need checked out before it goes too far.

Like a few others here it is evident that your focus is on killing the messenger because the message scares you, is my impression.

[Gravitycollapse]

95. Your claim is that the water is heating the ocean. That is what I commented on.

In no capacity did I ever say that the entire ocean was being heated. It is you who is clearly having issues with reading comprehension.

[snooper2]

94. never trust a man with two first names

[ElsewheresDaughter]

97. if you have the means to do it- move to the souther hemisphere...the northern sphere is doomed/done

[nikto]

98. Gosh...

It's a good thing nuclear radiation is great for your health,
or we'd all be in big trouble.

[SidDithers]

99. Ahahahaah....

Sid

[nikto]

100. Don't eat bananas

I hear they're worse than meltdowns.





I know, meltdowns are good for you too.