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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI changed the channel when Battle Hymn of the Republic started
The inauguration should be a secular ceremony.
As it is, it's like a Christian revival meeting.
Turned off and tuned out.
samsingh
(17,601 posts)TheDebbieDee
(11,119 posts)The soloist was duh BOMB and that was the most beautiful version of that song I've ever heard!
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)<------------------------------------
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Whateva.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)However, I recognize that many people have religious beliefs. I'm not insulted by those beliefs. I just don't share them. I can't imagine why I'd feel marginalized by a song. That's just stupid.
You missed a great ceremony, capped by a memorable speech by our President. Too bad for you.
trof
(54,256 posts)I can't explain it.
That song, when done like that, just gets me.
I don't agree of subscribe to anything in the lyrics, but it still grabs me.
And I'm a 'Reb'.
So does Amazing Grace, especially when done by bagpipes.
ashling
(25,771 posts)I never cared for the bagpipes thing.
trof
(54,256 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)rbixby
(1,140 posts)I'm sorry.
Warpy
(111,339 posts)Our government was designed to be secular for a reason, so no one would feel slighted or marginalized whatever spiritual path they were on.
Christians are so certain of everything (being in a majority tends to do this) that they don't realize how arrogant this is and how many people are starting to realize they won't get any sort of a fair deal from this government because they are simply not approved of by Christians.
I realize this is an attempt to wrest god away from the iron grip of the Republicans while honoring the believers who fought against slavery. Unfortunately, it's having the opposite effect on non Christian Americans, a minority that grows every day.
Since Obama, himself, is a believer, I'd expect him to thank providence during his inauguration speech. However, holding this much of a Christian tent meeting is distasteful, diminishing both church and state.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)The deluded feel it necessary to belittle those that don't share their fantasy. They have no facts or logic to argue in favor of traditional delusions and since they can't kill us any longer, this is what they got.
It does, however, work to our favor over the long term since our minority is growing most rapidly in younger demographics and these back-handed insults are remembered.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)forestpath
(3,102 posts)Swamp Lover
(431 posts)beautiful song.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Even with all words, but you knew that.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)No, nothing religious there.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)forestpath
(3,102 posts)WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)but don't confuse them with the facts......
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)There were many variants, some risque. A call went out to clean the tune up, and Julia Ward Howe came up with the Battle Hymn of the Republic. It's full of apocalyptic imagery meant to tie the outcome of the Civil War with divine justice. Which, yeah, is pretty damn religious.
WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)would you expect anything less?
Many hymns carry significance in the African American community precisely because of their use in the abolition movement: Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, The Gospel Train, Amazing Grace, Battle Hymn of the Republic, those are just the ones I'm aware of....
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)John Brown.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Occulus
(20,599 posts)Nope, nothing overtly religious about it.
You are obviously, spectacularly wrong in your opinion.
Demonstrably so. With bells on.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)That reference is to slaves, but you did not know that I s'pose.
Proper today.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)than you are.
I didn't deny the slavery reference. That does not exclude, or in any way modify, the overtly religious nature of the piece.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Response to cynatnite (Reply #133)Mon Jan 21, 2013, 09:43 AM
nadinbrzezinski (115,179 posts)
143. Patriotic
And it took those overtones during the civil war, not the present. The transformation for it into a deeply patriotic song took place during that very bloody civil war. It's origins are with the abolitionist movement as you correctly note.
It's also a hymn in the African American community. I don't know about you, but this is an African American President being inaugurated. This choice by Schumer, he is the one who chose it, is a nod to the community from a Jew.
So if one gets all those historic nuances, I can forgive them of using it. And Lord knows I know exactly where I lost my faith in a higher power. I also know we are not gong to have a ceremony like oh...Mexico's. our separation of Church and State is not that strict. Nor ave we fought several bloody civil wars over the issue either.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Abolitionists, including John Brown, used religion to further their cause. The song was to be a sort of judgment against the wicked. It was inspired by "John Brown's Body".
If you look at it from a purely historical POV, you could argue that it's not religious.
Given how it's used today, it is a very religious and patriotic piece of music.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And it took those overtones during the civil war, not the present. The transformation for it into a deeply patriotic song took place during that very bloody civil war. It's origins are with the abolitionist movement as you correctly note.
It's also a hymn in the African American community. I don't know about you, but this is an African American President being inaugurated. This choice by Schumer, he is the one who chose it, is a nod to the community from a Jew.
So if one gets all those historic nuances, I can forgive them of using it. And Lord knows I know exactly where I lost my faith in a higher power. I also know we are not gong to have a ceremony like oh...Mexico's. our separation of Church and State is not that strict. Nor ave we fought several bloody civil wars over the issue either.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)I can see why it was chosen. Thank you.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I wish we could have a truly secular ceremony, but that ain't gonna happen.
I have watched both the simple secular ceremonies in Mexico, president and successor walk into the Well of the Senate, the oath is taken, and a flag like thing is placed on the new occupant, the symbol of office is placed on the new President. Then a speech may or may not be delivered from the office...that's it. No gala ball, no inauguration parade...it's almost like any other day, and no references to God anywhere.
Then the American ceremonies. In an economic crisis the expense is a tad galling. And we need to find a new balance. But god ain't leaving.
The last point as far as this President is concerned, he likes to model himself on Lincoln.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)because someone utters the G word.
And I'm an agnostic/atheist btw.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)Imagine a world where you couldn't get married and have no employment protections solely and only because of people who are part of the religion under discussion.
Imagine a world where you can't even have your marriage acknowledged as valid in every state, but only a few, solely and only because of people who are part of the religion under discussion, and even then, you do not receive the same benefits on both the Federal and state level, exclusively because of people part of the religion under discussion.
Imagine a world where the deity of the religion under discussion, and that religion's beliefs, are used as a sword against you and everyone like you every day. Imagine a world wherein you are a target of such people for maiming, mauling, and murder for that specific reason.
Now imagine people you thought were on your side putting that religion on a pedestal and calling its dross a virtue.
I am a victim of this religion and its adherents. Daily. Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred sixty-five days a year, and have been so for a long, long, long time.
I can indisputably prove that beyond any possible doubt, reasonable or unreasonable, as a point of law. I can prove it, beyond any question to any person, in multiple ways. It has directly and personally affected me for my entire adult life. And yes, it is damaging. Deeply.
I accept your apology in advance.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)This is all a bunch of worthless whining. Why not bitch about MLK Jr's religious speeches while you're at it.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)The Battle Hymn is an Abolitionist song, for fuck's sake.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)schools & religious 'non-profits'?
bhotr is religious but religion isn't its main message, today or historically.
JI7
(89,264 posts)or some other language being spoken.
llmart
(15,552 posts)I feel sorry for you.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)doesn't belong in this setting.
llmart
(15,552 posts)since he has invoked the theme of God in the ceremony himself.
I'm an avowed atheist, but I am in the minority and realize that I live in a democracy.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)llmart
(15,552 posts)I still feel sorry for you. You just can't enjoy what a wonderful, historic moment this is without starting a silly argument about which music is appropriate.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You seem to have lost the ability to see beyond your religious privilege.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I think he is an unwilling victim of the religious majority in this country that would scream bloody murder if he failed to pander to them. Were he to simply omit those references, he would be lambasted until his last day in office. You know it, I know it, we all know it. We should ALL feel sorry for him.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)FSogol
(45,525 posts)CalFresh
(99 posts)sounds like a tea party meeting.
bama_blue_dot
(224 posts)I think you are in the wrong place...
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Renew Deal
(81,871 posts)Politicub
(12,165 posts)RedstDem
(1,239 posts)what a citizen with a conscience to do?
ChazII
(6,206 posts)Mrs. Overall
(6,839 posts)Thanks for sharing your poutrage.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)ROFL, you trotted out "poutrage."
Mrs. Overall
(6,839 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)Mrs. Overall
(6,839 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)I'm listening on the radio. I wouldn't miss the second inauguration of this President. Do whatever you want.
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)sad-cafe
(1,277 posts)it was beautiful.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,836 posts)Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)Aristus
(66,462 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)Sung in front of Christian believers.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,836 posts)But I'm a member of a choir that performs a lot of religious music - some of the greatest music of the last thousand years was written for the Christian church. I'm not going to miss out on that magnificent music just because I don't necessarily accept the faith it represents.
"The Battle Hymn of the Republic" is a piece of music that has great historic significance, probably much greater than its religious overtones. It is especially important to the black community, whose Christian faith was instrumental in furthering the civil rights movement. I can enjoy listening to an excellent performance of this music without feeling like my own religious beliefs (or lack of them) are somehow being disrespected.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)of religious music as a musician, from playing in orchestras to singing the Bass solos in Handel's Messiah several times. "For he is like a refiner's fire" is my favorite piece of vocal music to perform, although I no longer sing in public. I have zero problem with people's religious beliefs, and often attend concerts in churches when important musical works are being performed. I needn't believe to sing or play music.
Shallowness is a flaw. Much of our best art has a religious foundation. I don't have to believe to appreciate it.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)back during her 1963 variety show. It was one of the greatest performances of all time.
JI7
(89,264 posts)should we be banned from hearing it ?
No Vested Interest
(5,167 posts)they closed oout their live broadcast with a reprise of The Battle Hymn performance.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)incredible rendition and you're ignoring the significance of this hymn (and that uses the term lightly) to so very many African Americans.
I'm not a believer myself, but I have no problem with the fact their faith is what kept so many African Americans moving forward against incredible odds.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)So you couldn't just listen to appreciate the choir.
Siwsan
(26,289 posts)In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)[img][/img]
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)as others have noted, You missed quite a performance.
Can you not listen to a piece of art and not make it political?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Raging on about the use of music with the mention of God is every bit as misguided as raging about a permformance that does not mention God.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and opera would be thrown out if we looked at it the way the OP does. Has to ignore a lot of literature and art, too. Religion is part of history.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)That means you are dead wrong in your assumptions.
Shocking.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)a secular ceremony representing all Americans.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It's your world to hear/see what one wishes ... no matter how egocentric.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Yeah, sure. Let me know when that happens.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)There is more going on than just a song, and if you can't see it, you missed quite a performance.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)A lot of sour grapes today.
thucythucy
(8,086 posts)Just asking.
I think it's a beautiful song. Up there with "Ode to Joy" and "Mr. Tambourine Man."
Amazing performance as well.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Better than sitting and fuming.
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)and the Emancipation Proclamation.
My Dad did ... we sang it at his funeral.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)I'm indifferent to archaic rituals of entrenched power.
Historic NY
(37,453 posts)its a uniquely American transfer of the reins of government.
forestpath
(3,102 posts)Don't care how beautiful the voices are. Religion does not belong in government no matter who is president!
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It is purely a civil ritual. If you do not appreciate the role of ritual in human society, then you are correct, there is nothing for you in this one.
forestpath
(3,102 posts)And that is just plain wrong.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Hearing The Battle Hymn of the Republic does not exclude anyone but those who are themselves intolerant. Based on a tune that was popularized as "John Brown's Body" after a man who died in the course of his plan to free slaves, it is a product of an American folk music tradition.
It became an anthem symbolizing the struggle which resulted in a more inclusive society, and it was the anthem of those who triumphed in that struggle.
As a cultural product of its time, it does indeed include references to a specific aspect of culture.
And it is unfortunate that you have missed the president's call to expand the inclusiveness of our society today.
You are as intolerant as those who ban Mark Twain novels from high schools because of cultural expressions they find offensive.
forestpath
(3,102 posts)name not needed
(11,660 posts)forestpath
(3,102 posts)Response to forestpath (Reply #134)
Post removed
forestpath
(3,102 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Seriously, this is the shit she retorts with when someone presents the facts and history behind anything involving the Obama Administration.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)Someone is being berated for objecting to the jesusification of absolutely everything, which makes THEM sound like Sarah Palin?
My god the amount of irony in that should've broken the internet.
Half of the screeching Sarah Palin does is about how oppressed Christians are and how terrible it is that Jesus is being taken out of everything. Sound familiar?
Edited to add: I didn't even object to the religious songs or references. I object to people climbing up on their crosses yet AGAIN when they're reminded that being the majority religion doesn't make them the only religion.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....but you're the one who missed the "irony" of that. Not that it's really irony, but anyway....
Someone pointed out facts and history of the song and it's usage, and the poster's reply was to claim they were personally insulted when they weren't. Because you know, facts and history are evidence, proof, and the way you make your case, but to people without a leg to stand on, it's an "attack". That's a classic Sarah Palin tactic.
HTH.
Igel
(35,356 posts)But some of those it excludes you don't want to see as excluded.
Many of those it excludes you don't think should be included, anyway.
Consider how "we the people" is often used. It's absolutely exclusionary. The people, versus those who would oppres the people. However, the oppressors are also humans, and therefore people; they're also Americans, and therefore part of the people that matter.
We are told that nobody's equal until we have equal love, and we claim the mantle of righteousness. Then we hear words of triumphant hate and condescension for our political and class enemies. The message is incoherent without the right set of definitions, yet deemed coherent by the faithful and perceived as undisputed only because iconoclasts have a short half-life in any party, especially among the zealous.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)HIS religious privilege is being preserved, thats all that matters.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)i know, right?
for lovers of the humanities aof all kinds it was spectacular
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Golly, I must have sung all kinds of religious music that has utterly nothing to do with anything I believe. I'm boycotting myself from now on.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)How unfortunate we are to have the history we do.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The song has historical value and patriotic value. Earlier Americans were very religious and we don't have to pretend that never was. And the choir really rocked it! Beautiful as a piece of music.
panader0
(25,816 posts)The inauguration has always had these elements. Get over it.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)As they have always been. Does swearing in on the Bible offend you too? Is this the first inauguration to disturb you?
Or have you always turned them off?
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Or more to the point, they are not formally part of the inauguration. Washington added them on his personal preference, and everyone after him have been too terrified of the religious to remove them.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)So your argument is because religion is shoved into the ceremony in a variety of ways we should just shut up and be happy with it?
Ya know, them dark folks had their very own drinking fountains. They really shouldn't have complained about not being able to use all of them. It was no big deal.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...with his constant Biblical allusions.
"I may not get there with you, but I have seen the promised land", for example, was a reference to Moses not entering Canaan, and is, to you I suppose, offensive to Palestinians.
chillfactor
(7,584 posts)to say what a disgusting individual I think you are......you are entitled to your own beliefs but you do not have the right to insult others and swear at them just because your brain is in stall mode....you remind me of a two-year old having a temper tantrum....
forestpath
(3,102 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)that the ceremony should be secular. Didnt look to me like the OP wanted a decent discussion on the subject only to be disruptive.
forestpath
(3,102 posts)be possible no matter what tone was taken.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)up the discussion if a decent discussion was the intent.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)He should have just backed off instead of being so confrontational.
...Or so said a whole lot of people at the time. But hey, it's got a long tradition with the women's rights movement, LGBT rights, and pretty much everyone else who tries to fix anything in our country.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)You have failed to indicate where you stand on the issue the OP brought up.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)I'm saying starting with a controversy over a bigoted preacher, then having the ceremony open with a prayer, contain many references to God, swearing on a Bible, include hymns, close with a prayer, to be followed with an official lunch that opens with a prayer, contains many references to God, and closes with a prayer might be a tad much for government ceremonies in a country that separates church from state.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)is necessary to get in a fight about it today. I think it is counter productive.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)When, exactly, do you think the fight should happen? Weeks later when people will respond with "oh, get over it"?
Now, I'm not saying anything big needs to be done. Just a "huh....that's a lot of God in a secular ceremony. Maybe we shouldn't do that."
Big will have to happen after people realize there's a problem.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)I really don't care if they were ministers or plumbers.
People told them to shut up and stop making a fuss. Just like you are here.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)argument that the ceremony should be secular? or the intent to be disruptive?
I think the ceremony should be secular but believe the OP is counter productive to that argument.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)"Oh, it's not that bad, you should just let this one go" is the same argument used against every single civil rights movement. Such as women, blacks, LGBT, and so on.
In every case, there was a large number of supporters who insisted that now was not the right time, or that a particular affront was not a big deal. And then next one wasn't a big deal. And the next one, and the next one.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)else please.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)They really needed to stop pestering your beautiful mind, huh?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)This isn't about you. This is about our country. It's a slightly larger issue than you.
JI7
(89,264 posts)that comparable to the OP ?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Just like here.
Do I need to quote Republicans threatening physical harm to atheists to justify it to you, or do you think we might wanna actually follow the Constitution without keeping a score card?
JI7
(89,264 posts)as complaining about some reference to God. just because both involve complaining.
Bush lied about War, Clinton lied about sex. to you it's the same since they both involve lies.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)In those instances, it really WAS bad. If I went to a public event around Christmas time and babbled about Santa and his reindeer, people would roll their eyes, laugh - and probably think I was drunk. I can't see a lot of people getting really upset about it though. Of course, there are some who find imagination itself offensive, even some that I hold in high regard.
What's the alternative? Strictly enforce that there be no reference to God or religion during the inauguration? Perhaps one day there will be a President that makes it a secular event by choice, but it should be by choice and not by law. No one is being forced to pray, believe in, or approve of anything. No one is being forced to take part in the event.
I'm not religious, I'm not a believer, I'm also not really concerned about it. I don't see it as being deliberately offensive against (nor intended to intimidate) those who are not religious, or not believers. I honestly don't understand what is upsetting or oppressive about it.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Because people like me don't get fired for not "just going along" with the prayer at a company function. I dared to not lower my head.
While that is nowhere as bad as a lynching, it's still far more damaging than words. And nothing like your straw man about Yule-turned-Christmas.
Would it be acceptable for the President to refer to the lazy "n-words" in the audience? Why not? It's his choice.
While I'm not militant enough to demand a law, there should be some acknowledgement that such activities are exclusionary.
An enormous number of atheists live in areas that are not particularly religious. As such, being an atheist is not a big deal. Kinda like being latino in Los Angeles isn't gonna result in a lot of discrimination. But move that same latino to Mississippi, and things will be different.
JI7
(89,264 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)JI7
(89,264 posts)warren, not that he was christian or mentioned God but that he was an anti gay piece of shit who wanted to kill gays.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)One doesn't have to keep a score card of outrage in order to consider a complaint valid or not.
We could actually follow our founding principles instead of saying "shut up because I haven't heard of enough discrimination against you".
JI7
(89,264 posts)with your comparisons to gays blacks women being denied rights to someone making reference to God being equally offensive to Atheists.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)who seems to feel that prayer is "just words".
So, "shut up, woman!" would be offensive to you, but "shut up, atheist" is just fine?
My, how open-minded of you.
JI7
(89,264 posts)of hers in a joking way i wouldn't care.
but not sure what reference to God has to do with "shut up atheist" or "shut up woman". your arguments are getting lame it's like saying the inauguration is anti woman because the person being inauguration is a man.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)There's tons of posts in this thread, including several by you, which boil down to "shut up, Atheist".
No, the equivalent would be saying "thank God we're inaugurating a man instead of a woman".
(And yes, I went for a two-fer there)
JI7
(89,264 posts)did you get offended at that ?
should christians,muslims, jews, feel offended at that ?
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)When I was growing up, most of my neighbors were very strict baptists - the sort that didn't believe in dancing. I was raised Catholic myself - and there was constantly some kind of argument going on between baptists and Catholics. Being a boy, I didn't understand it terribly well. As I got older I realized that nearly every branch of Christianity is closed minded, judgmental, ignorant. I became a very angry atheist at the age of 14 and was frequently getting into shouting matches with my Father about it. I felt that I had been brainwashed, forced to go to a church and become a member of a cult of idiots and sheep. I was young, I was arrogant, I was foolish. The intention of my parents was the important thing - they brought me up Catholic because they felt it was a good way to instill moral values, to make me someone honest and good.
As I get older, I continue to have a strong prejudice against religion and the religious. Yet I realize that bias for what it is - my own ignorance, my own judgment, my own mind closing up. There really isn't anything wrong with someone displaying faith in public, provided they aren't using it as a means to intimidate or oppress another group, which in this case I don't think they were.
It's perfectly fine, even perhaps, righteous, to be intolerant of intolerance. Yet there is such a thing as an innocent display of faith, tradition. I may think of it as nonsense, but it's not my faith. So long as no one tries to ram it down my throat I'm fine with it. This is why I listen to Jehovah's Witnesses when they knock on my door. I completely disagree with most of what they say, but there's no harm in being polite and listening.
Perhaps I'm odd in that regard. I can remember very clearly a Catholic Priest telling me I would go to hell, or that the devil was having a "hayday with me" because I began to question my faith. I remember Baptists who lectured me on sin - and the millions of things that were sins, I remember them explaining to me that I'd go to hell if I didn't accept Christ as my lord and Savior. It sure made me angry - and others have even more right to be angry, but not necessarily at all religion and at anyone who practices it.
No, live and let live is generally my philosophy. I just don't see a point in getting angry about religious traditions in an inaugural ceremony, it's a tradition that's much older than our Country and it's generally innocent.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)But we're talking about an official ceremony that:
started with a prayer
contained an oath with a prayer tacked on to the end
contained a speech with several references to God
contained hymns
closed with a prayer
which was then followed by an official lunch that:
started with a prayer
contained lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of references to God in speeches
ended with a prayer
That's an awful lot of religion in official ceremonies for a country that's supposed to separate church and state.
And my goal isn't to ban God from such ceremonies, but to ask: "do we need to add this much God to this?"
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)I just can't understand getting really upset about it.
Do we need that much God? No, we don't need it all really, I just don't think that it's a big deal in this particular case.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)janx
(24,128 posts)You might then understand why it is especially important at this inauguration.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)so it is not even specifically religious. It ties the end of the Civil War to the judgment at the second coming as a metaphor, that's meant to say something (and to people in the 1860s).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_the_Republic
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)of America's first terrorist (aka "freedom fighter" John Brown in the song "John Brown's Body" (sung by Union soldiers on the march through the South).
Unless you're a Brit, in which case, America's first terrorist was probably George Washington (or, arguably, Crispus Attucks
janx
(24,128 posts)The "terrorist" abolitionist and another John Brown, whom the song was originally about.
Howe would have assumed that the John Brown of the song was the famous abolitionist. But the song belonged to a young Scotsman in the Massachusetts Volunteer Militia who shared Brown's name.
The Scotsman was well aware of John Brown the abolitionist. Having the same name made him a prime target for many good-natured jokes. As the soldiers marched, they would hammer out, in folk-song fashion, the tune that Julia Ward Howe would later hear. Lines like "His Soul's Marching On" were meant to tease the Scotsman. But as the catchy verse traveled to other units, it was known only as a song about the John Brown who was captured at Harpers Ferry. New verses were constantly added:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/brown/sfeature/song.html
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)so passionately unabated. That is simply an amazing story!
Speaking of Scotsman and music, allow me one of my fav all-time jokes:
Q: What's the difference between Mick Jagger and a Scotsman?
A: Mick Jagger says "Hey, you, get off of my cloud" and a Scotsman says, "Hey, McCloud, get off of my ewe."
I'm Scotch-Irish so am allowed the ethnic-joke exemption for that one
janx
(24,128 posts)1monster
(11,012 posts)lyrics were
John Brown's body has a cold upon its chest.
John Brown's body has a cold upon its chest.
John Brown's body has a cold upon its chest.
So they rubbed it with vaporizing oil!
Oye!
janx
(24,128 posts)But history is magnificent, isn't it? The Battle Hymn of the Republic went from a taunting of that poor Massachusetts Scotsman and a song about a famous abolitionist to the Battle Hymn that we know today--one that symbolizes the Emancipation Proclamation and the preservation of the Union.
It's just beautiful.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)sends shivers down my spine for its imagery and poetics. Can almost see the Union Army of the Potomac marching to it.
historylovr
(1,557 posts)Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)Today is not the day.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)1monster
(11,012 posts)as a non-Christian, I find your outrage as off-putting as evangelicals who keep insisting that everyone believe as they do.
There are many reasons and ways that people come to renoucne religion of some or all kinds. Often those reasons/ways are very painful. It can take time to work through the issues that one has with belief and non-belief. And maybe you are still working through whatever issues you may have. I hope that eventually you will learn to make peace with the world you live in and learn to choose your battles.
PS, during the Bush years, The Battle Hymn of the Republic was used (in parody) quite often. One example:
Battle Hymn of the Republicans
Mine Eyes have seen the bungling of that stumbling moron Bush;
He has blathered all the drivel that the neo-cons can push;
He has lost sight of all reason 'cause his head is up his tush;
The Doofus marches on.
I have heard him butcher syntax like a kindergarten fool;
There is warranted suspicion that he never went to school;
Should we fault him for the policies -- or is he just their tool?
The lies keep piling on.
Glory! Glory! How he'll Screw Ya'!
Glory! Glory! How he'll Screw Ya'!
Glory! Glory! How he'll Screw Ya'!
His wreckage will live on.
I have seen him cut the taxes of the billionaires' lone heir;
As he spends another zillion on an aircraft carrier;
Let the smokestacks keep polluting -- do we really need clean air?
The surplus is now gone.
Glory! Glory! How he'll Screw Ya'!
Glory! Glory! How he'll Screw ! Ya'!
Glory! Glory! How he'll Screw Ya'!
Your safety net is gone!
Now he's got a mighty hankerin' to bomb a prostrate state;
Though the whole world knows its crazy -- and the U.N. says to wait;
When he doesn't have the evidence, "We must prevaricate."
Diplomacy is done!
Oh, a trumped-up war is excellent; we have no moral bounds;
Should the reasons be disputed, we'll just make up other grounds;
Enraging several billions -- to his brainlessness redounds;
The Doofus marches on!
Glory! Glory! How he'll Screw Ya'!
Glory! Glory! How he'll Screw Ya'!
Glory! Glory! How he'll Screw Ya'!
THIS...DOO...FUS...MAR...CHES...ON
(with apologies to the lyricist -- I don't know who to credit)
Carolina
(6,960 posts)hymn or its place at such an event, you missed an exquisite performance by a diverse choir... one that mirrored the America that voted for the president and one composed of our fellow citizens endowed with beautiful voices!
Truly, it was your loss.
tallahasseedem
(6,716 posts)still_one
(92,394 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,749 posts)After all, it commemorates the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)Then he could have just stayed in his church and preached sermons and lived a long happy life.
forestpath
(3,102 posts)disagree with them.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)Whenever I don't follow a specific party line
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)Maybe I'm weird, but I do.
a la izquierda
(11,797 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)Actually I think there's a lot of great religious music. Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I can't appreciate good music.
patrice
(47,992 posts)That's in Rilke's Sonnets to Orpheus, here: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-sonnets-to-orpheus-book-2-xiii/
I especially like the closing lines of that poem.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Walk away
(9,494 posts)it's not even a generic "Lord God" song so we Atheists aren't the only ones left out.
a la izquierda
(11,797 posts)Comments like this are why I believe a lot of atheists are as insufferable as a lot of evangelical Christians. Different coin, same intolerance of the other.
And, oh yes, I said a lot. Not all, or many. Feel free to flame away.
narnian60
(3,510 posts)tallahasseedem
(6,716 posts)Lilyeye
(1,417 posts)malaise
(269,157 posts)I'm an atheist but have no problem with beautiful music
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)a la izquierda
(11,797 posts)People need something to get their knickers in a twist about daily, it seems.
malaise
(269,157 posts)ForgoTheConsequence
(4,869 posts)Luckily I'm capable of putting things into their correct context and was able to enjoy it. I'm sure some would prefer using their white privilege to white wash that part of history.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)I left the RC church decades ago and I don't believe in organized religion. Enough with the religion already.
Raine
(30,540 posts)intolerant.
WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)how about appreciating the historical & cultural significance of this hymn?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_the_Republic#Cultural_Influences
The lyrics of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" appear in Martin Luther King, Jr.'s sermons and speeches, most notably in his speech "How Long, Not Long" from the steps of the Alabama State Capitol building on March 25, 1965 after the 3rd Selma March, and in his final sermon "I've Been to the Mountaintop", delivered in Memphis, Tennessee on the evening of April 3, 1968, the night before his assassination. In fact, the latter sermon, King's last public words, ends with the first lyrics of the "Battle Hymn", "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord."
Since this is MLK's actual birthday, I find the inclusion of this hymn to be especially significant.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)It made sense to have it part of that, imo.
Having said that, however, I think Twain's version of the song may have been even more appropriate:
Mine eyes have seen the orgy of the launching of the Sword;
He is searching out the hoardings where the stranger's wealth is stored;
He hath loosed his fateful lightnings, and with woe and death has scored;
His lust is marching on.
I have seen him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps;
They have builded him an altar in the Eastern dews and damps;
I have read his doomful mission by the dim and flaring lamps
His night is marching on.
I have read his bandit gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my pretensions, so with you my wrath shall deal;
Let the faithless son of Freedom crush the patriot with his heel;
Lo, Greed is marching on!"
We have legalized the strumpet and are guarding her retreat;*
Greed is seeking out commercial souls before his judgement seat;
O, be swift, ye clods, to answer him! be jubilant my feet!
Our god is marching on!
In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch,
With a longing in his bosomand for others' goods an itch.
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich
Our god is marching on.
* NOTE: In Manila the Government has placed a certain industry under the protection of our flag. (M.T.)
Puglover
(16,380 posts)Because of course the inauguration is all about you and your sensibilities. BTW not a christian here and somehow I made it through the song. Man, talk about not seeing the forest through the trees.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)And here i'm referring to all who liked the inclusion a performance of Battle Hymn of the Republic, but are getting their panties in a wad because some didn't like it.
Puglover
(16,380 posts)AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)Historical context must have gone right over your head.
You missed a hell of a performance, though.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)expect many calls for details.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Sorry that bothers you. He leans on his faith for many things in his life. It is fully within his rights to publicly display his faith. Even at the inauguration.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Do you feel that it is only there to serve Christians, as many here seem to do?
Christian privilege, such a fine thing, isn't it? For the believers, anyway.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)What does that have to do with prayer or mentions of faith at the inauguration? It is extremely clear that this type of display is constitutional. The constitution agrees, the court agrees, Obama agrees.....
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)name not needed
(11,660 posts)geomon666
(7,512 posts)I watched every bit of it. I can appreciate religious music and art without belittling the beliefs behind it.
llmart
(15,552 posts)Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)educating other so-called progressives on the ability to tolerate other peoples' belief systems.
geomon666
(7,512 posts)Maybe if I had a team.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)And I'm an Atheist
Hekate
(90,793 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)"With the blessing of your blessing ... we pray for your blessing" for abundance "we pray for your blessing, bless all of us .. that we may become a blessing ... "
OFCS, let's get back to reality!!
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)of all of them so far.
Hamlette
(15,412 posts)As a 3rd generation godless commie pinko my family taught that it is all a beautiful myth which teaches lessons about us, not unlike the Greek and Roman myths. And the song is beautiful, unlike the pledge and our money which contain more egregious violations of the idea we are secular.
Ignore the bad, appreciate the good.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
union_maid
(3,502 posts)And those young people singing it looked like their smiles were genuine. I'm not a bit religious, but it made me tear up.
bklyncowgirl
(7,960 posts)Then I listen to a self-proclaimed atheist snootily decry a beautiful musical performance of a hymn with great historical import for this country, just to make her own intolerant point about religion in the public sphere and I decide that this is a club that I do not want to join.
name not needed
(11,660 posts)For a bunch of people tired of the Evangelicals nonsense, they sure take after them.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,836 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Do we need to wait for a new inquisition for your permission to be annoyed?
"Oh, it's not that bad. You should let it go" has been the refrain against women, blacks, LGBT and every other civil rights movement. Shortly followed with "I'm a supporter, but your absolutism is driving me away!", as you state here.
bklyncowgirl
(7,960 posts)There's a big difference between active discrimination such as that experienced by the groups you referenced and--OH THE HORROR--having to listen to religious sentiments that most of your fellow citizens hold sacred but that you do not share.
I dislike intolerence whether it comes from the left or the right but you have every right to be annoyed if you like just as I have every right to be annoyed at your annoyance.
Let's face it, this is the Internet, more particularly this is DU, we stand by our absolute right to be pissed off and outraged at something!
jeff47
(26,549 posts)for President. Nah, no actions involved other than moving lips.
Oh wait.
(Polling varies: "Would you vote for an otherwise-fully-qualified person for President if he was an atheist?" gets "yes" from in the 30s to around 50% depending on the poll. However, it's always behind other groups such as "gay" or "muslim". "Just words" have consequences)
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Listening to that song has been know to transform even the most devout atheists into fundamentalist Christians.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)Personally, I love the tune.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)To me, it's a Union Civil War song. As a Daughter of a Union Veteran, I love the crap out of that tune.
I'm also an atheist.
To each his own.
union_maid
(3,502 posts)The church was a major patron of the arts in Europe. Do we really want those Old Masters in publicly funded museums? Then there's Gospel. You don't have to believe anything in particular to just feel inspired by that. Life is not all black and white.
RudynJack
(1,044 posts)you've never watched an inauguration, and don't plan to watch one within your lifetime?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sometimes you just have to appreciate a piece of music as a piece of music.
Sid
Laochtine
(394 posts)I know christians need their binky, so as long as they don't shoot up the place I forgive the their trespasses on me
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)*sarcasm*
Like they've never seen a Presidential Inauguration before.
Just one more lame attempt to criticize Obama.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)Annoying eye-rolling thing inserted here.
obietiger
(500 posts)I turned over to their channel as the song was ending to see if they would say something nice about it. There was only laughter being broadcast.
lynne
(3,118 posts)- when we're to join together, put aside difference, and accept each other for the persons that we are.
Guess King should have specifically referenced music choices.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)If Imagine were performed at the inauguration.
No hell below us
Above us only sky
patrice
(47,992 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)I was wondering the same thing.
CalFresh
(99 posts)In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.
I love it!
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Dixie is from the same time period, and doesn't use religious symbolism.
I guess Dixie is a much more inclusionary song.
Silent3
(15,265 posts)How does that even get at the point the OP is making, whether you agree with the OP or not?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The Battle Hymn of the Republic - as was John Brown's Body - is a retort to Dixie, in context.
Silent3
(15,265 posts)...is too much for you to handle?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The idea of it being a civil anthem with religious symbolism at the same time is clearly too much for some to handle.
The plea "God shed his grace on thee" in America The Beautiful is fraught with a Protestant Christian doctrine.
The song makes racist irredentist Confederates squirm, and that's good enough for me.
Silent3
(15,265 posts)...and not surrounded by religious invocations and swearing to God, swearing on top of Bibles, visiting churches. As it is, however, it's one more straw on the camel's back.
But hey, let's not airbrush any of that away. It's convenient when tradition and history favors those who hold a privileged position.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Well, I don't know who you are talking about, as I have no religious affiliation at all, and you are denigrating a person who was an abolitionist, a pacifist, and a suffragette.
The lyrics were written by someone who spent the rest of her life fighting for the right to vote - a privilege you have always had.
Silent3
(15,265 posts)...and always people who don't enjoy those privileges who will oddly defend others privilege anyway.
But if that one particular song is so damned important, its sentiment simply cannot be tapped without its built-in religious trappings, how about we keep that one song and trash all the other religious claptrap?
And short of that, how about at least showing a bit of fucking understanding for someone like the OP who might have reached their limit for looking the other way when separation of church and state is blithely ignored at the point of that one song instead of somewhere else your esteemed self would approve of?
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....many of the songs sung by those who marched on Selma and DC were hymns....Amazing Grace, Swing Low, Sweet Chariot....
The OP's going to have to get over it fast, because their complaints on THIS DAY are inappropriate. Period.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Boy that sounds familiar....
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....those silly, silly people singing those songs, right?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Just like when those "silly, silly people singing these songs" started.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Silent3
(15,265 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)That would be the counterpart, wouldn't it!
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)It sounds more like a hymn, somehow.
It used to be used for the Florida Governor's Inauguration. Eventually, they had to change the lyrics, though. Apparently "longing for the old plantation," didn't fit by the 1970s.
patrice
(47,992 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)RoverSuswade
(641 posts)Get a grip.
Stinky The Clown
(67,818 posts)Geeeze, give it a rest. I am not ready to say I am a complete atheist, but I am totally areligious.
The song is moving and patriotic, the actual words notwithstanding.
I bet others changed their channel because the title says "Battle Hymn."
But hey . . . . we're all impressed by your channel changing.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)It wasn't that hard to turn it off, was it?
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Considering the highlight of the ceremony is the President placing his hand on a Bible.
Were you just looking for an excuse to piss and moan?
abbeyco
(1,555 posts)Obviously you're not quite so tolerant of the beliefs of others. Sad...
mokawanis
(4,452 posts)I have no criticisms or complaints against you because you turned it off, I'm just surprised you turned it on to begin with. I mean, you had to know that presidential inaugurations have never been a secular ceremony. Did you expect this one to be any different?
thucythucy
(8,086 posts)The BHotR is a piece of American history, honoring the sacrifice of those who fought to end slavery.
Can't think of a more fitting tune for this occasion. Well, maybe "This Land is Your Land," but I expect that one will be sung as well.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)If so, you can call someone who gives a shit.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I imagine that sooner or later, we'll evolve to the point in which any song sung, poem read and story told will deny any and all imaginary beliefs systems-- up to and including religion, politics, philosophy, arts, etc, and all the other wholly imaginary, man-made constructs which appear no where but our own minds.
Then and only then will everyone will be included.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)religion in a historically signicant song in an artistic performance at a political/governmental ceremony!
amazing
it is like all the humanities on grand display all at once.
The religion aspect is interesting in a Durkheim/Sacred/Profane sort of way.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Whatever citizen, its a free country as the saying goes.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)walk out of movies at the first mention of god. You close books,with god references. You poor thing. You've missed out on so much in your life by being so afraid of a word or a depiction.
You know, I am not a flag person. But my husband religiously puts the flag on our house on all federal holidays. He likes it. And I love him.
Phx_Dem
(11,198 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)onenote
(42,759 posts)You probably would have passed out.
Excerpt from the Emancipation Proclamation:
"And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind, and the gracious favor of Almighty God."
dsc
(52,166 posts)which are pretty much purposeless without religion but this song in particular has a strong, secular purpose. It was the anthem of abolition which was the first civil rights cause our nation ever engaged in. I think that it would be just as much a violation of separation of church and state to throw out this song due to its Christian imagery as it is to include the prayers.
CanonRay
(14,113 posts)and not the religion of it. I'm not Christian, but as a Civil War buff, I understand how much the song meant to the Union.
Robb
(39,665 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)We were built by people who loved God and that good ole time religion.
Don't feel intimidated by it. Be who you are and don't resent others for being who they are.
You don't have to agree with the meaning, but let's be proud of our heritage.
The Founding Fathers weren't fundamentalists. They studied Greek and Latin and knew their mythology as well as their Bible. But the families who settled the Mid-West, the South and the West were not all, but were mostly very religious and mostly Protestant.
Phx_Dem
(11,198 posts)Brigid
(17,621 posts)It is far better not to post something and be thought a fool than to post it and leave no doubt.
No Vested Interest
(5,167 posts)That'll show'em.
Swamp Lover
(431 posts)But I support your right to be a narrow minded bigot.
juajen
(8,515 posts)I am sick of all the arguing. I find myself doing this over and over again. Why does every other post have trivial arguments, that tend to turn me and others off?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)my favorite song to sing in High School. As it is, it was Pomp and all the trappings to go with it. Those who think otherwise look truly foolish and odd.
llmart
(15,552 posts)sometimes it's just about the music and the feelings it evokes in a person, and there isn't any "agenda" in having it part of the ceremony. It's part of the pomp and ceremony and tradition. As I said initially, it was a petty thing to say on this momentous day.
People who have to pick apart everything and find something negative to focus on need to stop taking themselves so seriously.
SpartanDem
(4,533 posts)You might want to pick up a history of book or two and understand why on MLK Day this song is significant.
patrice
(47,992 posts)Some people don't feel that it is necessary to make a big deal about their reactions all of the time. Their thoughts and feelings are not threatened by what other people do, nor do they need the attention of others in that regard.
Other people feel for some reason (and perhaps all of us should ask why; what reason is that?) that it is necessary to make themselves the point of things.
Here's a perspective on this that all of us might consider given the facts of corporate personhood funding things like a cozy relationship between MoveOn and the Tea Party amongst other things, I"m sure, lately:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/01/20/far-right-poses-as-much-danger-to-the-u-s-as-radical-islam/
One of the core issues with the extreme right is that while they espouse individual freedom and like to try and spread fear regarding the governments activities, they also seem to believe in a type of authoritarianismone of the very things they profess to loathe in governmentthat includes a strong resistance to authority from what they view as outgroups, namely blacks and women, unions, and more.
OP appears to be a "my way or the highway" presumed authority opposing anything different from itself on the claim that whatever disagrees with them is authority and ought to be opposed on their say so alone.
Co - existence is considered moral terpitude in some mindsets. They'd apparently much prefer to dictate the terms of "better dead than _________________ ." It's a base building tactic that completely avoids specifying concrete objectives, processes, procedures, and timelines, let alone outcomes, and tasks (except for getting people to repeat memes or click Like or Reply in a forum) because it has nothing workable and it fears any attempt to arrive at that will result in its own deconstruction. Sound familiar?
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)how to feel about a song.
aikoaiko
(34,183 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)Most of us are very happy. happy happy joy joy, nyah.
JI7
(89,264 posts)music at times also.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Bye.
JI7
(89,264 posts)bluerum
(6,109 posts)JI7
(89,264 posts)with references to things which might involve christians.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)and a remote.
louis c
(8,652 posts)I am secular and cry when I hear the Battle Hymn of the Republic, because I know what that song means for this country. How slaves became free while brave men died on battlefields all over America to preserve this great union.
It may mention God, after all there are some pretty religious people who do the right thing and make the ultimate sacrifice. There are many Secular people who also do the right thing and make the ultimate sacrifice.
Get with it. Enjoy all that is diverse in this country, including those who believe in God as well as those of us who don't.
GP6971
(31,205 posts)"Disappears". I guess their conviction lasts for just so many posts.
My initial reaction to the BHoR being sung? Wow, a shot across the bow.......north vs. south. Then I remembered it was it was MLK day and everything made sense. Very appropriate IMOH.
WCGreen
(45,558 posts)That was was driven by Abolitionists who saw slavery as an affront to Christianity.
Hence the idea of His Truth is Marching on meaning the North was propelled into war by the Abolitionist who were convinced God was on their side.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)"Mine eyes have seen the Glory of the coming of the Lord."
Maybe that might could have something to do with the selection?
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)coincidence/put-down of non-Christians
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Festivito
(13,452 posts)not requiring free-exercise zones.
Good luck trying to change that part of the Constitution.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Your loss.