General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"If We Did Not Share in the Prosperity, Why Should We Have to Share in the Sacrifice?"
...asks Al Sharpton in the headline of a short piece.
(Article here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-al-sharpton/fiscal-cliff-minorities_b_2247565.html)
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)to return the favor.
GatorLarry
(55 posts)Not just return the favor but finally to simply pay their fair share.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)As la Boetie wrote, the master can't give you anything he hasn't taken from you first.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)We have to share in the sacrifice because there is both infrastructure in place to tax us and the tradition of doing so.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)We've BEEN sacrificing, and paying taxes, and doing our part. THEY--the ones who have been reaping all the gains--have NOT been doing their part. Why do we need to pick up the tab AGAIN?
Nobody here has a problem with continuing to do our part.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)American "socialism"= socialism for the rich.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)I'm more tired than I thought.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)It is called majority rule in a democracy!
ProfessionalLeftist
(4,982 posts)participated in the political process, paid attention, became ACTIVE (activists), we could crush the fascists.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Which brings the next logical question to mind.
How does that happen?
I've tried to ask this before, only to reap a ton of grief. I'm not trying to be argumentative. There are literally millions of us that don't have anywhere left to turn and no time to wait.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)no substitute for good public education.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)How does that happen? I could be complete out of my mind, but from what I can see, we are headed in exactly the opposite direction of that. Beyond which, there are millions of us that can't wait for the affects of better public education, even if we immediately change course. We need help, REAL help a year, or 2 years or more ago. Tell me I'm wrong in what I see. Please. Desperation is a shitty way to live. Give me a reason to believe it's going to get better sometime before it kills me.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)help coming, that's servitude.
99Forever
(14,524 posts).. trying to get across, could you expand on it some? Yes, we have to stand together, but how and where? What do we do when we are still ignored as we have been for so long?
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)It needs to morph and return in a new skin.
I think the word "occupy" was a poor choice, sounds like a direct physical takeover, which helped legitimized (in some minds, not in mine, I was thrilled with Occupy, nothing had given me so much hope in a long time) the brutal repression of that movement.
But ultimately, with so many in poverty and prison, and while our country (even under a Dem administration, aaarrrgh) continues to subvert desperately needed changes to head off cataclysmic climate change, you're correct, we have no time to lose, and we can't wait for new political parties, new leaders, constitutional amendments, though we need all of those things, but the world can't wait and we need to act now.
DU seems to fall short on this. It's good at bringing attention to certain events and articles, and for like-minded citizens to support each others' views, but not good at channeling that energy into transformative action. Shame.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Your thoughts echo my own in many ways.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)are thus small in number, and spirit. And maybe our goals are too small.
My goal is freedom. Especially from tyrants (a better word than greedy capitalist, I think) who take the opportunity we produce and stick it in their pockets. Even with the people who are paid directly or indirectly to do their bidding there are only a few hundred thousand of them, lets say a million. But they steal opportunity from over 300 million who serve to provide them with comfort, profit, and power at the expense of our own and our kid's lives abroad and at home, our education, medical care, our future.
I know which team I'm on if my neighbors, us, decide we don't wanna serve Mr. Charlie any longer.
The piece at the following link was written nearly 500 years ago, so we have the advantage of seeing what happened after, comparing it across time and people in different places, but with the same struggle.
The rest is here. Make coffee first.
They can't take our output without cooperation. 300 million servants for their causes. You can look over the past few hundred years and see people become angry at their conditions, and sometimes pull out the guillotine or guns or ballots, try and fight against the tyrant. But the nasty little buggers always come back. Which is why I consider it busy work to deal with tyrants. It might be better investing your time to figure out how to work with your brothers and sisters in the struggle for freedom so we no longer need ask anything.
If, instead, the 300 million would just quit cooperating with the tyrants they immediately obtain their freedom. Translated to today that probably means decades to organize and build. (The tyrants got serious again after the civil war, were slowed for awhile in FDR's time, but came back. So it's not going to be a quick fix). We find out if minds can be opened to the possibility of freedom again, build structures for our future, retrain people It means we acquire (buy) whatever the means of production will be for our future and operate it ourselves, competing in the global market we are being prevented from competing in today. Do what used to be done FOR us by and at the discretion of Mr. or Mrs. Charlie (a generic name for the Master).
We need to quit giving them the products of our labor. and begging and protesting to get it back.
You asked for help, and that is possibly not what you had in mind. I don't mean that in the meantime people shouldn't go after raises, or more food stamps, or extended benefits, etc, but we shouldn't fool ourselves. As long as we are asking for our own money back we are not equal, and thus not free. Especially not if we are being told too much is going to the tyrant, so there is none left for us. And for damn sure if we are told that they must take more from us for the long-term good of the tyrant.
We do the best we can with what we have, however. Maybe we organize while doing what we can to get the tyrants to do something now, while we undermine their power by looking for like-minded people. Maybe we start cooperatives and figure out how hard it is to go from valuing individual competition to cooperating with each other so we can compete with other nations that are beating on us? That's something for us to determine as a group.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)and Democratic politicians disregard the democratic process and represent the rich and super-rich regardless of election outcomes is a democracy in name only.
And you say "we hold all the cards." Try saying that to yourself after the Grand Bargain.
Try saying that to yourself after the Senators approve of the pending let's-send-even-more-jobs-to-foreign-countries "free-trade" agreement. Try saying that to yourself after Obama signs the pending TPP, the NAFTA of the Pacific.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)governed by center-right, right, and proto-fascist representatives. The will of the majority of people on the issues WILL NOT BE DONE.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)So, we got what we asked for. If we don't like them, then we need to run different candidates.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)so that it takes beaucoup bucks to even get noticed in the districts, much less the statewide races. That means you either already have money or have access to money through wealthy donors. And wealthy donors expect return favors. In addition, there's the redistricting problem. There were a half million more votes for Dem House candidates across the country, but the Republicans STILL hold the House.
Smaller districts and a bigger House MIGHT work for a while.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)which he implied that even though the proletariat may not always act in its own best interests ('class for itself'), it nonetheless constitutes a distinct economic class ('class in itself'). So the challenge for all true progressives, imho, is to help transform 'class in itself' to 'class for itself.' The accomplishment of that goal or even efforts made to achieve it will have the 1% absolutely terrified, I assure you.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)There are way more of us than there are of them. The Unions have begun to form a coalition with Progressive Organizations and SS advocacy groups eg. They have stated they no longer trust politicians to fight for the people and will be working together to start fighting back against these corporate thugs who have taken over the political parties.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)xchrom
(108,903 posts)Arkansas Granny
(31,530 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)Back in 1988, George H.W. Bush won approximately 61 percent of the White vote and was swept into office. In 2012, Mitt Romney won about the same percentage of White voters and lost. The demographics of the country have undeniably changed. There's a new America and a new electorate. And those who do not comprehend this notion will continue losing support and continue losing elections. Any further negotiations regarding the looming fiscal cliff must also keep this new America in mind.
The new majority of Americans -- Blacks, Whites, Latinos, gays/lesbians, seniors -- cannot pay the bill of the elite 2 percent by having 'entitlement programs' that they disproportionately depend on eliminated or cut, while we continue to give tax breaks to those that have benefitted the most from those tax loopholes. In a recent speech in Atlanta, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Ben Bernanke even stated that communities of color must be included on the road to recovery and that they have suffered extensively during these tough economic times, especially with regards to home ownership.
With limited time remaining for talks about the fiscal cliff, the degrading language and the blame game will likely fire up. They will try to paint the new America, the majority of us, as somehow lazy or jealous of their wealth. But it is the majority that played by the rules, paid into Medicare, into Social Security and into other essential programs, and yet still suffered the most while the ones who caused the financial crisis continued to enjoy their tax breaks and amass their riches.
Simply put: if we did not share in the prosperity, then we should not be asked to share in the sacrifice. Period. The New America spoke on Election Day and we want the 2 percent to make sure they hear us now.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)on point
(2,506 posts)We should be discussing not a 49.6 % interest rate, but a 70% interest rate, at least until they pay down the debt run on their behalf. Then perhaps bring it back down to 50% once the debt is paid down to zero.
Oh and strike an international deal among the OECD to raise all their tax rates to 70% so there is no way to play one country against another like the rich try to do. ( or impose a major serious tariff if the country is run by supply side wing nuts - Britain)
Note the conservative argument is never the tax rate is to high on its merits, not it is is 'uncompetitive compared to other countries'.
So take away that argument and make it high and expensive world wide. The wealthy have been bleeding people in other countries beside the USA...
JEB
(4,748 posts)The 1% get all the prosperity and the rest of us get all the sacrifice. Thanks Al for all the Truth you bring to light.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)and that's supposed to be enough of a reason, besides the fact too many goofballs in the US have fallen for their bs in an effort to kiss ass for their own selfish benefit.
JohnnyRingo
(18,641 posts)Not only have we not shared in the prosperity, we've seen our benefits and buying power decline to fuel that increased wealth for those at the top.
The working classes have already done our share of the sacrifice, it's time for the monied class to catch up.
calimary
(81,473 posts)Salutes to you, JohnnyRingo! This is something else that almost never gets mentioned in the same breath as the lead point. It's always farther down the list. It should be first or maybe second. EVERY contract in the last few years with few if any exceptions has involved workers making concessions. It's either wages, rate of wage increases, or benefits of some sort. Workers have always had to give back.
Once upon a time, workers were paid well enough that one paycheck WOULD take care of a family of four. Mom wouldn't need to work to help make ends meet and she could afford to stay home, make cookies, and vacuum in her shirtdress and pearls the way June Cleaver did. That union worker who supported his family of four made enough so he could afford to buy the cars he helped manufacture. Little by little, the so-called "job creators" were only interested in how cheap they could get away with paying their workers for the same or even more work, and that trend continues to this very day. Penny-wise/pound-foolish. Get the pirates' deal for now. Never mind the longterm ramifications. When all you want to do is get it on the cheap, pretty soon your whole operation is cheap. And not as desirable in the marketplace, and certainly no longer competitive.
THIS IS NOT A GOOD PARADIGM! Look at Hostess! The workers took it in the shorts, the company went bankrupt, and yet the CEO and all the vice presidents parachute outta there with nice fat bonuses with which they were rewarded - essentially for having tanked their company. I mean, sit back and consider objectively - what do we all learn from this?
And why isn't this making a bigger difference to our legislators and so-called representatives?
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)So then.
What is it we are going to do to make it happen? Speaking out is great, but without some real world action, we WILL have "austerity" shoved down our throats, of that I guarantee you. Millions of us already have and I'm here to tell you, it REALLY sucks.
Not only that, I'll also guarantee you that the rich WON'T share one tiny bit of "the sacrifice" or their horded treasure troves. The 1%ers of today are no different than any of the other greedy bastards in history, and just like the those before them, they will NEVER "give" anything back willingly. Ever.
What are you (the generic "you," not you personally) willing to do, to change that dynamic?
SalviaBlue
(2,918 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)leftstreet
(36,112 posts)senseandsensibility
(17,130 posts)repeating it when they go on TV? You know, as if we wanted to win or something?
...You're asking the right questions!
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)...hilarious...and oh so true!
Brigid
(17,621 posts)ReallyIAmAnOptimist
(357 posts)the sacrificing since the CRASH. Now we're asking the 1% to put some skin the game. Geesh!!!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)It logically follows that since we didn't share in the prosperity, we can't share in the sacrifice since we have nothing saved. In addition, us not sharing in the prosperity is what caused a need for sacrifice.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)we were the ones LOOTED.
DaniDubois
(154 posts)progressoid
(49,999 posts)moondust
(20,006 posts)ErikJ
(6,335 posts)Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)TOTALLY! EXCELLENT! nothing much left to sacrifice
for many of us.
liberal N proud
(60,344 posts)It's like the companies that close and the executives get bonuses.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Well I suppose that's what this article is doing. So
burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)The poor sacrifice even when no sacrifices need to be made.
The national compact is so weak and has failed them so obviously, they should not be asked to sacrifice the food that just relieves their hunger pangs, nor the housing they keep only precariously, nor the clothing that wears down to a tissue-thinness before it can be replaced.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)they are going to do so. They never do.
I'll give them sacrifice. Give us all those who have brought us here starting with Bush and ending with the Koch Brothers and we will take them to Mt.Kilauea one by one and throw them into the volcano until they get the message. Yeah, I'm kidding but the thought makes me smile.
former-republican
(2,163 posts)and just knocks them out of the park.
Someone can't even make a reasonable argument against it.
WCGreen
(45,558 posts)stuffmatters
(2,574 posts)Is that the middle class have been paying a higher tax rate than the rich for years. It bis not up to us to now chip in 10%
more from our meager 15000 soc sec via the rigged cola or pay thousands more for raised medicare or let it be means tested into a welfare program, or allow medicaid to be starved an its safety net supporting old age nursing homes removed.
There is public knowledge that existed before Romney's candidacy and after Romney's candidacy. The public learned that the super rich in this country do not and have not paid anything close to a fair income tax via capital gains, off shore tax shelters, son of boss exclusions, renting religious exemptions, tax free pass through trusts, tax free pass through 401ks etc ...while the rest of us every year of our working lives have religiously paid a higher tax rate than these people for decades.
Anything Obama or the Democrats proposed as"balanced sacrifice" is now pretty much an obscene demand to further bilk the middle class while further enriching this tax privileged and ultimately tax enriched class. Rev Al is completely right. We see now that we have sacrificed all along and they have not paid even close to their proper percentage. We have paid our bills and theirs. It is time for the rich and the corporations to pay the bills they have avoided all these years.
We've already borne the pain, done or part, lost our businesses, our houme equities, our retirements etc AND paid our taxes. Now it's time to ask the 1% to do the following & see how fast our deficit shrinks & economy grows:
There should be a progressive tax schedule for income (including capital gains) over 250,000 that STARTS at 39% and goes up to at least 60%. Inheritance tax should also returned to rates at least of the nineties.
Go with the Nurses on a Financial transaction tax . Also eliminate the cap on taxable soc security income. Apply a soc sec, a medicare and a medicaid tax to capital gains (over 250000 if you want to cushion retirees, no cushion if you don't)
The two biggest drivers of the deficit are the Bush wars and the Bush tax cuts, not soc sec (not even in the budget), medicare and medicaid. I'm so sick of hearing these austerity/Wall Street shills on Sun morn talk shows blame the deficit on "entitlements" , social insurance the middle class pays for all their working lives, instead of reckless military and economic decisions made by the Bush Administration and exploited by the 1% and by Wall Street.
love_katz
(2,584 posts)Send them to Kilauea.
Oh, Madam Pele, we have a delivery for you.
And thanks, Reverend Al. Somebody needs to speak truth to power.
Iggy
(1,418 posts)What is the probability the corporate lackeys in congress are finally going to put an end to this obvious tax evasion?
http://host.madison.com/news/opinion/column/nicole-tichon-congress-should-put-end-to-corporate-tax-dodging/article_ed6367ee-40ac-11e2-bbb9-001a4bcf887a.html