Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

wnylib

(22,103 posts)
Sat May 11, 2024, 10:24 PM May 11

US offering Israel intel on Hamas leaders whereabouts if Israel makes no major operation in Rafah.

According to the Times of Israel, referencing the Washinton Post, the US is offering sensitive Intel on locations of Hamas leaders and their tunnel hideouts IF Israel does not launch a major operation against Rafah.

The US is also offering tent encampments for Palestinians displaced from Rafah and a humanitarian aid infrastructure for them.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-said-offering-israel-sensitive-intel-on-hamas-leaders-whereabouts-if-no-major-rafah-op/

Looks to me like the offer would make targeting Hamas leaders more precise than a major operation in Rafah would. It also would address humanitarian concerns and aid that Biden has said are necessary during this war.





33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
US offering Israel intel on Hamas leaders whereabouts if Israel makes no major operation in Rafah. (Original Post) wnylib May 11 OP
If we have Intel on where Hamas Tickle May 11 #1
It's a short article that does not provide background, but wnylib May 11 #3
This is ridiculous. I don't believe we've been holding this type of info and worse use it for a jimfields33 May 11 #8
The US doesn't negotiate with other nations in order to wnylib May 12 #20
I agree, that is why I think the article is B.S. JohnSJ May 12 #33
Aren't they already doing that? RandySF May 11 #2
See my #3. wnylib May 11 #4
Since several of Hamas' "leaders" are sitting comfortably Buns_of_Fire May 11 #5
That's what I've been thinking all along... Think. Again. May 11 #7
I disagree. The targets are under civilian infrastructure, so wnylib May 11 #12
Agree that Sinwar deserves it, but the situation between him and Eichmann is different. wnylib May 11 #10
Sinwar is in Gaza. He's hiding in the tunnels and using hostages as a shield. So is Mohammad Deif LeftInTX May 11 #14
Would love to see him killed in this operation if the hostages around him could be wnylib May 11 #17
The fact that we haven't immediately passed that info to netanyahu... Think. Again. May 11 #6
See my #3. wnylib May 11 #13
In Qatar? Freethinker65 May 11 #9
Sinwar has always been in Gaza. He's never been to Qatar. He's hiding in tunnels. So is Mohammad Deif LeftInTX May 11 #18
Thought Hamas political leaders had been safe living lives of luxury in Qatar? Freethinker65 May 12 #21
Not Sinwar. LeftInTX May 12 #23
How would the USA have more intel about tunnels and within Gaza than PufPuf23 May 11 #11
Since it is intel, the very nature of its secrecy means that there is wnylib May 11 #15
About the tunnels used by Hamas in Gaza PufPuf23 May 12 #24
One of the problems: Egresses are in Egypt LeftInTX May 12 #26
Clear a path along the Egypt-Gaza border and find where tunnels are PufPuf23 May 12 #28
That's what I'm thinking too. The only thing holding them up are hostages. LeftInTX May 12 #30
Agree with your last sentence especially. wnylib May 12 #27
Maybe we have a magic tunnel sensor? LeftInTX May 11 #16
Or maybe we have undercover agents and informants wnylib May 11 #19
We do have ground penetrating radar on revmclaren May 12 #22
There is technology that could have assessed what is under Gaza PufPuf23 May 12 #25
But such technology is highly sensitive. Revealing what is known wnylib May 12 #31
Your move, Bibi. Joinfortmill May 12 #29
Agree. wnylib May 12 #32

wnylib

(22,103 posts)
3. It's a short article that does not provide background, but
Sat May 11, 2024, 10:52 PM
May 11

it might be the case that some of the Intel on Hamas leaders' locations at Rafah is very recent. Or, the US could be sitting on the Intel of Hamas locations at Rafah as a negotiating tool to get Israel's agreement to limited, more precise attacks at Rafah AND humanitarian aid for displaced civilians from Rafah.

jimfields33

(16,500 posts)
8. This is ridiculous. I don't believe we've been holding this type of info and worse use it for a
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:10 PM
May 11

“You get it, if you don’t do this.” No way. The United States doesn’t operate like that.

wnylib

(22,103 posts)
20. The US doesn't negotiate with other nations in order to
Sun May 12, 2024, 12:04 AM
May 12

come to agreements and define points of disagreement?

Buns_of_Fire

(17,263 posts)
5. Since several of Hamas' "leaders" are sitting comfortably
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:01 PM
May 11

in mansions, it might be time to start decapitating the snake from the head down. If Israel could spirit Eichmann out of Argentina, surely it could spare a bullet or two for Sinwar in Qatar.

Think. Again.

(9,694 posts)
7. That's what I've been thinking all along...
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:06 PM
May 11

...netanyahu's claims of only trying to end hamas don't match what is actually happening.

wnylib

(22,103 posts)
12. I disagree. The targets are under civilian infrastructure, so
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:34 PM
May 11

a great deal of infrastructure damage has occurred, along with civilian deaths. Israel has given advance warning to civilians before its attacks.

Rafah is a larger site than some others, so attacks there endanger even more civilians. It is near the Egyptian border and the Hamas complex there is HUGE, with underground networks extending into Egypt for smuggling (without Egyptian government approval or aid, AFAIK). Hamas commanders and fighters have retreated there after their other underground sites were destroyed by Israel. So an attack on that network would also be huge, in order destroy the entire network and assure that the remaining commanders and fighters there are eliminated.

But, if the US can provide Intel that would make targeting the locations more precise, it would save civilian lives and infrastructure.

The Israeli goal in this war has always been to destroy Hamas and its capability of future attacks. The Hamas goal in this war has always been self-preservation to the extent of using civilians to protect themselves and gain world support for civilian victims. Hamas uses 16 year olds as fighters and younger children as couriers.

.

wnylib

(22,103 posts)
10. Agree that Sinwar deserves it, but the situation between him and Eichmann is different.
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:13 PM
May 11

Last edited Sat May 11, 2024, 11:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Eichmann was captured after Nazi Germany was defeated, along with its allies. So, no risk of widespread repercussions by taking him into custody for a trial.

But Middle East terrorist groups, besides Hamas, are still active and strong, with sympathizers in many countries who are prepared to retaliate with attacks on defenseless civilians. Or with assassinations and attacks on embassies and various government officials.



LeftInTX

(26,148 posts)
14. Sinwar is in Gaza. He's hiding in the tunnels and using hostages as a shield. So is Mohammad Deif
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:46 PM
May 11

Sinwar never left Gaza.

There are other leaders in Qatar, but Sinwar is not one of them.

wnylib

(22,103 posts)
17. Would love to see him killed in this operation if the hostages around him could be
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:55 PM
May 11

rescued in the process.

Think. Again.

(9,694 posts)
6. The fact that we haven't immediately passed that info to netanyahu...
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:04 PM
May 11

...suggest to me that we really don't believe netanyahu's claims of "self-defense" as much as we let him think we do.

Freethinker65

(10,173 posts)
21. Thought Hamas political leaders had been safe living lives of luxury in Qatar?
Sun May 12, 2024, 12:16 AM
May 12

Had read they might have left, or will be asked to leave, Qatar. Thought perhaps that was part of the intelligence exchange being discussed.

LeftInTX

(26,148 posts)
23. Not Sinwar.
Sun May 12, 2024, 12:45 AM
May 12
From a few days ago
The two officials speaking to The Times of Israel were unable to say with certainty where Sinwar is currently located, but they cited recent intelligence assessments that placed the Hamas leader in underground tunnels in the Khan Younis area, some five miles north of Rafah.

A third official — an Israeli one — asserted that Sinwar is still in Gaza.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/sinwar-not-hiding-in-rafah-officials-tell-toi-as-pm-publicly-prioritizes-idf-op-there/



From April 2024
Sinwar briefly emerged from hiding in Gaza, met with fighters, Hamas source claims

Hamas terror group leader Yahya Sinwar briefly surfaced from his underground hiding place and walked the streets of the Gaza Strip, an official in the group claimed.

The official, who spoke anonymously to the London-based Al-Araby Al-Jadeed newspaper in an interview published Wednesday, refuted Israeli claims that Sinwar is cut off from his forces on the ground, saying the terror chief met with fighters and reviewed sites where there were clashes with the Israel Defense Forces.

Israel has made eliminating Sinwar a key element of its goal to destroy Hamas after the terror group’s devastating October 7 attack on the country that opened the still ongoing war in the Gaza Strip. Israeli officials have claimed that Sinwar is forced to hunker down in Hamas’s vast network of tunnels beneath Gaza, leaving him isolated from the group’s gunmen.

They have indicated he was likely in tunnels under Khan Younis or Rafah, surrounded by hostages.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/sinwar-briefly-emerged-from-hiding-in-gaza-met-with-fighters-hamas-source-claims/


From Feb 2024
&ab_channel=NBCNews

Image from Apr 2023 in Gaza

File: Yahia al-Sinwar, the Gaza Strip chief of the Palestinian Islamist Hamas movement, greets supporters as he arrives to attend a rally marking Al-Quds (Jerusalem) Day, April 14, 2023. (Mohammed Abed/AFP)


Very long article about his prison sentence.
'I Asked Sinwar, Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying? He Said, Even 100,000 Is Worth It'

The teeth of Fatah inmates are in poor condition, whereas Hamas prisoners maintain hygiene and purity. Theirs is a religious way of life. Ascetic. With rigid discipline. They pray five times a day, don't touch sweets, don't smoke. There's no such thing as smoking in Hamas. You see a 50-year-old prisoner who is entirely free of any signs of illness. No tooth decay. I'd say, "You're Hamas?" They would say, "Yes, how did you know?" "By the teeth," I replied. A very basic insight. Everything has meaning – it's the same with regard to their way of life, for example. At 9 P.M., there is a total lights-out in the prison's Hamas wings; in the Fatah wings they watch television all night.

You know, when I first started out at the service, thousands of prisoners had already been released as part of the Oslo Accords framework. Who was still incarcerated? Around 800 inmates. There was the really hard-core element of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and another 200 Fatah prisoners with "blood on their hands." When I came to Nafha Prison [in the Negev], as a dentist, the whole Hamas leadership was imprisoned there: [Yahya] Sinwar; his right-hand man Rawhi Mushtaha; Tawfiq Abu Naim, the head of the security branches; Ali al-Amoudi, Hamas' communications director and manager of Sinwar's office. And because I'd worked twice a week at a prison for criminals too, I understood that the behavior I saw at Nafha [among security prisoners] was very unusual.

It wasn't the socially oriented organization, as it were, that Israel aspired to cultivate in the 1980s as the entity that would pose a threat to Fatah. It was already a military organization then. The thing with Hamas is that they have always been a faction of the Muslim Brotherhood. They set themselves Islamist goals: to annihilate the State of Israel, to liberate sacred Muslim lands. The Israelis just didn't get it: For them, Hamas and Fatah were the same thing.

I said to Sinwar, "Tell me, is it worth it for 10,000 innocent people to die, in order to free 100 prisoners?" The reply was, "Even 100,000 is worth it." Their notion of time is different, and the price in blood they are ready to pay in order to achieve their goal is different. Because each person who dies is a shahid [martyr]. It's warfare in the name of God.


https://archive.ph/8gEzD

PufPuf23

(8,930 posts)
11. How would the USA have more intel about tunnels and within Gaza than
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:26 PM
May 11

IDF and Israeli intelligence agencies?

Can see how USA has better intel outside of Israel, specifically Qatar.

wnylib

(22,103 posts)
15. Since it is intel, the very nature of its secrecy means that there is
Sat May 11, 2024, 11:47 PM
May 11

us no public answer to that question.

But keep in mind that we have agents and informants in many places.

PufPuf23

(8,930 posts)
24. About the tunnels used by Hamas in Gaza
Sun May 12, 2024, 12:45 AM
May 12

Seems logical that USA intelligence has foot on ground sources. Also working face to face at some level with IDF. Problem is foot on ground intelligence imbedded where? NGOs are questionable and viewed by some as complicit; there are certainly instances of complicity. Gaza not an easy place to be for adult male not attached to IDF.

Look at this posted October 15, 2023 ( https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218367008 )

About the tunnels used by Hamas in Gaza

Caveat: Not a military expert and probably something like this is happening just not talked about for secrecy.

But practical.

Search for and find tunnels egresses in Gaza and outside Gaza.

Start from outside Gaza and systematically search using remote sensing and whatever intelligence method works.

One could be very certain that people at the egresses and within the tunnels are Hamas terrorist.

Also stores of munitions and other items of the terrorist trade are likely in or near the egresses to the tunnels.

The tunnels may also be a means to sneak undercover IDF forces behind enemy lines, particularly tunnels that are not in current use.

The Gaza cleanup operation should destroy the system of tunnels so not available for future terrorism.

LeftInTX

(26,148 posts)
26. One of the problems: Egresses are in Egypt
Sun May 12, 2024, 12:57 AM
May 12

And Egypt does not want to get involved. They have enough problems of their own and they've been doing the aid thing.

Egypt knows if they start looking for tunnels, it's gonna p___ a bunch of people off and the government doesn't want to be seen as "helping Israel".

Egypt has closed off tunnels in the past, but now is not a good time for them.

There were a few tunnels going into Israel and they have closed those off.

PufPuf23

(8,930 posts)
28. Clear a path along the Egypt-Gaza border and find where tunnels are
Sun May 12, 2024, 01:06 AM
May 12

at the border and work into Gaza.

Surprised that the border was not sealed as a military move early on.

wnylib

(22,103 posts)
27. Agree with your last sentence especially.
Sun May 12, 2024, 01:00 AM
May 12

The tunnels have to be destroyed beyond repair, beyond being rebuilt.

And then surveillance is necessary to prevent terrorists from ever getting such a stronghold again. Don't know who would do the surveillance.

revmclaren

(2,596 posts)
22. We do have ground penetrating radar on
Sun May 12, 2024, 12:40 AM
May 12

satellites used for Intel, geology, etc.

Maybe they want to keep its full capabilities secret.

wnylib

(22,103 posts)
31. But such technology is highly sensitive. Revealing what is known
Sun May 12, 2024, 01:14 AM
May 12

can also reveal info on how it is known, which needs to remain secret. So, disclosing what we know is a huge security step taken very cautiously and rarely.

The fact that the US has stood with Israel's self defense actions indicates that the US knows that Israel's own Intel on where to strike and when is good and needed no intervention or additional Intel from us.

But the situation in Rafah is so serious in terms of the potential size of the operation and destruction of life and infrastructure, and the operation so important to destroying Hamas's last stronghold, that the US is apparently willing to take the rare step of sharing sensitive information.


Latest Discussions»General Discussion»US offering Israel intel ...