We need an exodus from Zionism

[Voltaire2]

I’ve been thinking about Moses, and his rage when he came down from the mount to find the Israelites worshipping a golden calf.
The ecofeminist in me was always uneasy about this story: what kind of God is jealous of animals? What kind of God wants to hoard all the sacredness of the Earth for himself?
...
Our Judaism cannot be contained by an ethnostate, for our Judaism is internationalist by nature.

Our Judaism cannot be protected by the rampaging military of that state, for all that military does is sow sorrow and reap hatred – including against us as Jews.

Our Judaism is not threatened by people raising their voices in solidarity with Palestine across lines of race, ethnicity, physical ability, gender identity and generations.

Our Judaism is one of those voices and knows that in that chorus lies both our safety and our collective liberation.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/24/zionism-seder-protest-new-york-gaza-israel
Naomi Klein
The Guardian

I've been pondering how to address the elephant in the room at our Seder celebration this week. Naomi has provided some answers.

[NoRethugFriends]

1. Here's the operative line that makes article bullshit

"Our Judaism cannot be protected by the rampaging military of that state, for all that military does is sow sorrow and reap hatred – including against us as Jews."

Sure, if Jews will just be nice, then they won’t hate us and want to destroy us. That's always worked before.

BTW, I do detest Netanyahu and what he's doing.

[Coventina]

2. Exactly. You can't "out nice" people who are determined to torture and kill you. n/t

[CincyDem]

26. Com'on...there's good people on both sides. Amirite?

[Maru Kitteh]

51. VERY FINE PEOPLE. ON BOTH SIDES.

[Voltaire2]

4. There are choices between 'genocidal maniac' and 'just be nice'.

[NoRethugFriends]

6. Please note my opinion in the post of what Netanyahu is doing

My point is the one sentence is BS.

[Voltaire2]

14. "cannot be protected by the rampaging military of that state"

so again there are many alternatives between a 'rampaging military' and 'just be nice'.

[NoRethugFriends]

24. Yes there are

My point is that thinking this will make people hate Jews less is wishful thinking at best.

[Earth-shine]

63. Stopping the war won't reduce antisemitism. But, continuing it makes it worse.

The actions of Israel reflect on Jews all over the world. It ain't right. It ain't fair. It's how it is.

Keeping the aggressions of Israel in the headlines is bad for world support of Israel, and also support for America, which arms Israel.

Publishing the actions against Israel makes it a more sympathetic actor.

There are no easy answers.

The Israel-Gaza situation is one more factor weighing against Biden in the election. I fear if he loses, all will be lost ... as in the whole free world.

[LauraInLA]

65. Everyone really should read _People Love Dead Jews_.

[Voltaire2]

113. It is the people of Gaza who are dying by the tens of thousands.

[BannonsLiver]

8. I thought it was the Seder line.

[Mr.Bill]

47. This makes me ponder

why some religions have a military establishment and some don't.

[Tetrachloride]

3. is Zionism the same as Judaism ? serious question

[Voltaire2]

5. Absolutely not, despite efforts to conflate the two.

[NoRethugFriends]

10. Question

Are you against Zionism?
If so, would you have been in 1948?

[LauraInLA]

66. Everyone also should read the Michael Chabon novel _The Yiddish Policemen's Union_.

[Tetrachloride]

11. ty.

[ripcord]

9. Zionists are people who support a Jewish state

Anti-zionists are opposed to a Jewish state.

[JohnSJ]

57. Thank-you. The term has been intentionally misused by those who

do not want Israel to exist, and as a propaganda plow for the destruction of Israel

and frankly those pushing the “anti-Zionist” theme have a “Jewish problem”, and many also throw out other “dog whistles” relating “Jews, money, etc.”

Certain notable house members had no problem pushing that garbage, and then playing naive that they didn’t know the relationship. “It’s all about the Benjamin’s”.

Ask Nina Turner who blamed “Jewish money” for her loss. OF course ignoring the fact that she out raised Brown in donations, or that other group donations in campaigns, it is only the “Jewish money” that bothers them

If that isn’t anti-Semitic than I don’t know what is.

Or when the women’s march movement was taken over by those who kicked out women who had the Israeli flag.

I have seen this played over and over again when growing up in Iowa.

October 7th was eye opening. Even before any retaliation occurred, people were justifying it, including professors from various universities.

One from UC Davis actually made a threat against Jewish journalists to do personal injury

https://cbsaustin.com/amp/news/nation-world/uc-davis-prof-under-investigation-after-threatening-jewish-journalists-their-children-university-of-california-jemma-decristo-israel-hamas-palestine-gaza-middle-east-conflict-terrorism-invasion-los-angeles-berkeley

“Those Zionist journalists”

[elleng]

45. No.

[IronLionZion]

73. No, think of it as a sort of Jewish Nationalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

[Hekate]

7. Forwarding this

To my husband and at least one old friend

[Elessar Zappa]

12. Zionist means being for a Jewish homeland.

[claudette]

32. They have a homeland

now. Why do they want Palestine's land? Why are they killing innocents to get it?

[JohnSJ]

60. Except there are certain groups who not only refuse to accept that, but

have been engaged in multiple wars to eradicate it, and after each war the Palestinians lost more and more land, refused to accept a two state solution, and helped put in power Netanyahu because of those constant attacks against Israel which they do not accept. Too bad it isn’t as simple as you would like to portray it.

[Earth-shine]

68. For years, Netanyahu supported Hamas financially and politically. Yes, things are not so simple.

Both Gaza and Israel need regime change.

[JohnSJ]

74. Oh please, blame Netanyahu for Oct 7th? Bullshit. I blame Hamas

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2024, 05:16 PM - Edit history (1)

For years billions have pored into help Palestinians, and the PLO and Hamas which was elected, what did they do with that money. They sure as hell didn’t help the Palestinians.

It wasn’t Netanyahu who tried to destroy Israel in the 50’s 67 and 71 war? It wasn’t Netanyahu who proclaimed the “three Nos”. No peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, and no recognition of Israel.

Unfortunately Labor lost because of the actions of Hamas, Hezbolah, and other terrorist actions. Same parallel why bush won a second term, even though he ignored the warnings of 9/11.

[Earth-shine]

78. I did not say I blame Bibi for Oct 7. I said "it ain't so simple" using your own words.

I reject your strawman argument against me.

Your reaction of anger shows you know it's not so simple, and that you know Netanyahu is not an innocent actor. He is a war criminal, like the leaders and actors of Hamas.

[True Blue American]

86. I do, but also blame the Israel people for his continued power.

I remember the real Holocaust and those who died to save them. Several in my family included. They are abusing the memory by letting, Bibi and his pals to wantonly kill innocents. They are badly tarnished by this and the cruel actions of stealing settlers land over the years. This is a time of reckoning

[Earth-shine]

91. My limited understanding is that most Israeli's support Bibi's actions but not him, per se.

Just as a hypothetical, were we -- the people -- responsible for what Trump did as president? I think it's both yes and no.

Trump hoodwinked a lot of people. I think Bibi and the Likuds also propagandize to the people.

I would like to see the war stopped, with regime change in both Gaza and Israel.

[JohnSJ]

99. I did not make a "personal" argument against you, nor was it a straw man argument

it was simply how I view the current situation, and a brief historical background which brought us where they are today.

The dropping the ball of the security lapses, and ignoring the warnings are definitely on Netanyahu, as are his draconian coalition

[Earth-shine]

101. You wrote - "Please, blame Netanyahu for Oct 7th? Bullshit." That's a strawman.

And as you said before that, things aren't so simple.

Perhaps you could take some time to sort out your thoughts. You have a nice day, now.

[JohnSJ]

104. Thanks for clarifying the part you viewed as "strawman".

[AnrothElf]

70. Thank you for correcting the bumper-sticker thinking.

There's a fuck-ton of ignorance about the history of Israel and Jewish history, more generally.

Unequivocally: I support the right for Israel to exist.

Hamas, and, historically, Palestinians, do NOT support Israel's right to exist. They want to destroy it 'from the river to the sea'.

That's why Zionism is still a thing, and why Israel needs a US-backed military. Without them, we'd be looking at an ACTUAL genocide in Israel, instead of the NOT-genocide in Gaza.

Hamas could end the war in Gaza TODAY: Surrender.

[claudette]

77. Oh please

Spare me.

[AnrothElf]

100. You are spared. Thanks for asking

[wnylib]

75. Why did Palestinians reject the UN offer of a homeland

state at the end of British rule and choose war against Israel to take all of the land for themselves? And when they lost that war, continued nonstop with terrorist attacks and more wars against Israel?

I agree that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal, should never have been established, and should be ended. But the current war is about destroying Hamas so that they cannot continue to carry out their sworn goal of annihilating Israel and all of its people, with aid from Iran.

[Coventina]

103. You will never get an answer to that question. n/t

[erronis]

41. Why not set up another homeland, or 3 or 4? Multiple zions

Perhaps one for the conservatives, one for the orthodox, one for the non-practicing?

Just like in the christian and muslim world, then these zion states can fight among each other as to who is the truest zion.

[Earth-shine]

72. They are already divided into communities in Israel, and there is friction among factions.

In my own life, I am a Jewish atheist. I was born Jewish, but have no belief in God or religion.

A while ago, I had a very significant relationship with an orthodox woman living in New York City, who often dealt with the ultra-orthodox Hasidim.

It was two separate worlds with disdain between them. They connected solely to do business deals.

[Sympthsical]

13. Stage 5

That took no time at all.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218890758

[Voltaire2]

16. Sure of course Naomi Klein is a raging anti-semite

thinking about how to observe seder this year.

WTF.

[Sympthsical]

19. If the 20th Century wasn't enough

To provide an understanding of why her posture is ahistorical and dangerous, don't know what to tell you.

I've almost given up expecting the 21st Century is going to be any different. The last 1,000 years wasn't illustration enough. Why should it change now?

As for Klein, people internalize all kinds of things out of unbreakable ideology. She's been a bit . . . elsewhere for awhile now.

[JohnSJ]

64. and Klein's constant anti-Hillary crap helped sway some

not to vote for Hillary.

[Cha]

92. Yeah, Klein's Anti Hillary screeds are part of why we got Fasccism in the WH and

Now Spread all over the Country.

She has not one ounce of credibility.

TY

[JohnSJ]

97. +++

[maxsolomon]

107. Klein or Wolf?

Naomi Klein wrote about her Naomi Wolf problem in "Doppleganger".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelganger_(Klein_book)

[betsuni]

112. Klein often called Democrats elite neoliberals (as if Democratic policies are the same as Republican,

meaning deregulation, privatization, no environmental regulations, austerity); are corporatists who only care about money and ignore the working/middle class for wealthy donors and Hollywood; there was a horrible Clinton Machine and the Clinton Foundation was corrupt, etc., the usual propaganda.

But "Donald Trump speaks directly to that pain."

[BannonsLiver]

18. Nailed it.

[LexVegas]

15. Anti-Zionism is antisemitism. nt

[BannonsLiver]

22. So then what does that say about people who think "we need an exit from Zionism"?

[NoRethugFriends]

25. Naivete at best

[claudette]

33. Not really

The practicing Jews in my family are not Zionists.

[sarisataka]

36. Your family believes there should be no Israel?

[claudette]

38. No

My family believes there IS an Israel and there's no need for it to steal Gaza and the West Bank. And they believe Palestine should have their own FREE state.

[sarisataka]

39. Then, according to the dictionary definition,

They are Zionist

a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel

One can be Zionist and support the formation of a Palestinian state.

[claudette]

42. So Nuttyahoo

is not a Zionist but a violent, power-hungry mad man who kills innocent Palestinians to gain MORE land for Israel? Why aren't the "Zionists" trying to stop him?

I believe the Jewish members of my family do NOT have the same definition of Zionist as you just posted.

[sarisataka]

48. I would agree with that assessment of him

And point to the thousands of protesters in the streets of Israel who want him out of office.

I don't rate the dictionary. I just read it.

[LeftInTX]

85. By definition most citizens of Israel are Zionist. Netanyahu of course is a Zionist, but so is his opposition.

Golda Meir was a Zionist. Albert Einstein was a Zionist.
The Arab and Christian Israeli citizens would be considered Zionists.
Liberal politicians in Israel are considered Zionists.

Zionism is not defined as someone who wants to expand Israel, but who supports an Israeli homeland.
Anti-Zionist is someone who does not support a Jewish state.

There are quite a few Jews outside of Israel who anti-Zionist.
Noam Chomsky does not support a Jewish state
The board members of founders of Jewish Voice for Peace are anti-Jewish state. (At least there core is. I think their membership is fluid. Right now, thetr are probably many Jews protesting with them, who like the name and do not realize they prefer that Israel not exist)
Both Noami Klein and Noam Chomsky are members of Jewish Voice for Peace. They do not support a Jewish state.

Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism.[a] Although anti-Zionism is a heterogeneous phenomenon, all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine—a region partly coinciding with the biblical Land of Israel—was flawed or unjust in some way.[7]

Jewish Voice for Peace was formed in 1996 by Julie Iny, Rachel Eisner and Julia Caplan,[10] undergraduate students at UC Berkeley.[11] Members of the advisory board include Tony Kushner, Sarah Schulman, Judith Butler, Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, and Wallace Shawn.[citation needed]



JVP criticizes what it describes as the "severe human-rights violations that Israel engages in every day."[12] In 2019, JVP declared itself anti-Zionist.[13] The organization also supports the Palestinian-led boycott against Israel through the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement (BDS).[14]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

There are a handful of Jews in the US who are truly anti-Zionist.
Most support Israel in some shape or form.

[Mossfern]

95. What definition of Zionism does your family have?

I think this all may be an issue of miscommunication!

[multigraincracker]

102. Words are symbols, not the thing.

Wars are fought over flags, gods and boarders, none of which are real.
It’s all a god damn shame.

[EX500rider]

108. Gods may not be real but flags are, here's a picture of one:

[multigraincracker]

110. Defined. Symbol, something that

represents something else. According to the dictionary. No more real than any or all of the gods. No more real than a line in the dirt. No difference in the dirt on one side or the other. Yet one hand full of that dirt is different than the hand full of dirt on the other side. Hardly worth fighting or dying for.
Words are symbols and not the thing.

[EX500rider]

114. Well if you want roads & airports & social security etc you need government

And since we don't have a world wide govt you have local govt.
They need defined borders so they know which people are their citizens & how far their laws reach.
You then need symbols to differentiate which govts are which on ships & planes & borders etc

[marybourg]

105. Israel is stealing Gaza? That's a new one.

I

[BuddhaGirl]

52. Yes, it's not a monolithic view

Most Hasidim oppose Zionism.

[Behind the Aegis]

80. The "oppose" it because they think Israel can only exist if G-D creates it.

So, there reasons are far-right religious reasons, hardly a good reason or rationale for opposing the Jewish state.

[Silent3]

67. I'd say there's often a huge overlap, but I can't agree they are the same

Isn't part of Zionism not just that a safe-haven country like Israel is needed for the Jewish people (which I agree with), but a whole lot of "God granted this particular land to the Jews" stuff which is a matter of religious dogma? I do not at all accept any argument for the existence of Israel which derives from interpretation of religious texts.

[sarisataka]

17. I am puzzled, by exodus from Zionism

is she saying Jews should leave Israel? Just abandon the state, that will end antisemitism?

[Coventina]

20. Or, she is encouraging the viewpoint that all Jews everywhere are responsible for

anything bad that Netanyahu does.

Not helpful at all.

[sarisataka]

23. She is either extremely naive

or is internalizing some issues without realizing what the end consequences would be. Perhaps both...

[ProfessorPlum]

58. she is neither naive nor unaware.

she is one of the smartest observers of the world and its history we have. Read the Shock Doctrine. She knows who are bad actors and who aren't. And she is absolutely right to want Israel to stop this madness and genocide - for the sake of Jewish people all over the world, including in Israel.

[sarisataka]

62. If she believes all Israel has to do is stop and antisemitism will go away

she is naive. Even if Israel itself went away Jews would not be welcome in much (most) of the world. I doubt the Arab countries that expelled their Jewish populations upon the formation of Israel would take their descendants back.

[Silent3]

71. The poster you're responding to didn't say anything about "antisemitism will go away"...

...nor did Naomi Klein.

Antisemitism, does, however, wax and wane. What Netanyahu and right-wing Israelis are doing in Gaza right now sure isn't helping promote a decrease in antisemitism.

[sarisataka]

76. That I can agree with

as I have said, Israel has made several missteps and Netanyahu is an obstacle to peace.

[ProfessorPlum]

88. what a strawman

yes, Naomi Klein thinks Israel has to "stop" and then "antisemitism will go away".

way to grasp the argument.

[sarisataka]

89. You may note I began this subthread posing it as a question

not an argument.

[agingdem]

21. There is no "our Judaism"...

Naomi, you do not speak for me, the child of Holocaust survivors…you want Jews to play the victim..not gonna happen…so how about you STFU!!!!

[Cha]

93. Rec.. TY!

[Torchlight]

27. Distilling 'Peace in Our Time' down to its fundamentals.

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2024, 08:01 PM - Edit history (1)

and then on to 'only the prelude to a larger settlement in which all Europe may find peace.'

That said, I don't think intentionally conflating desire and need will illustrate any good-faith agruments to be made; quite the opposite I would guess.

[marybourg]

28. This is the ultimate goal of all the pro-Palestinian activism:

Get the Jews themselves to abandon Israel. Destruction from within; a sort of self- holocaust.

[claudette]

34. Not to

abandon Israel. To abandon the violence of Zionism.

[marybourg]

94. And do what? Lay down to be rolled over?

Israel was made war upon by its neighbors as soon as it was born. And then repeatedly thereafter. Should it have just rolled over, then? Any violence associated with Zionism has been foisted upon Israel by 75 years of violence by its neighbors.

[claudette]

44. No, it isn't

The goal of pro-Palestinian activism is to STOP the deliberate and horrible murdering of innocent Palestinians to gain their land - under the guise of defeating Hamas.

[marybourg]

49. Oh, under the guise of. The horrific attacks on Israel were not enough to

trigger *actual* retaliation. Just pretend retaliation under the guise of. The lives of Israelis aren’t even worth real outrage and horror.

[Big Blue Marble]

96. The ultimate goal of all the pro-Palestinian activism:

Is self-determination for Palestinians, for them to be free of
domination and occupation, to stop to theft of their lands.

It is what we all want, freedom and agency.

[marybourg]

109. But in their case, they want it on the land on which Israel is situated.

[Big Blue Marble]

111. Which land are you referring to?

1. The original UN Partisan in which the Israelis were given a portion of Palestine.
2. The land that includes the areas of the Occupied West Bank that has illegally settled with the stated purpose to foreclose the possibility of a Two State Solution
3. The land that many Israelis call Eretz (Greater) Israel including the total West Bank
and Gaza.

In your rubric, are the Palestinians allowed to keep even the land that the UN
partitioned for them in 1948, or at least the West Bank and Gaza that Israel
occupied after the 1968 war in order to have their own state? At, this point,
they have been squeezed off of much to the land that the UN deemed for them.

[niyad]

29. As an ecofeminist, Naomi should be aware that pretty damned

much everything that the political propaganda known as the bible referred to aspects if Giddess worship. Hathor, the Golden Cow. The fig tree. The snake. The altars. That deity in the bible wasn't jealous of animals, but of the Goddesses they represented.

[LW1977]

30. Post deleted

[question everything]

31. I can assure you, and Klein, and other like minded that none of you would be spared by the hooligans

in Columbia and other places. You are a Jew, regardless of your opinion about Israel and Zionism.

The marchers chanting “Jews will not replace me” aim at you, too.

Remember many whose families actually converted were not spared by the Nazis.

So might as well be proud of what the early Zionists made, built a place where Jews are not persecuted, where you will still be welcomed when you feel threatened.

Israel is a democracy. Many have protested against Netanyahu and will continue to do so. One day he will not be there.

Netanyahu’s push to weaken Israel’s Supreme Court divides nation | 60 Minutes

[claudette]

37. That's only because

those who attack the protesters against the genocide in Gaza are considered anti-semitic when they are NOT. They are PRO-innocents.

[maxsolomon]

53. Those "pro-innocents" protestors have made common cause with anti-semite protestors

and they're therefore conflated. Even if they take pains to disavow that rhetoric.

Unless your contention is that the (presumed) Muslim protestors are not antisemites, but merely anti-Zionist?

[claudette]

79. I really don't know

the nationality of all the protesters. What does it matter. Normal compassionate people of ANY ethnic group can rightfully protest the deliberate murder of innocents in Gaza and West Bank or anywhere. They are not Hamas and have the right to let their opinion heard. WITHOUT violence.

[maxsolomon]

84. Of course they have the right to peaceful assembly.

I'm surmising that most of the hateful, clearly antisemitic rhetoric is coming from Muslim protestors, who are (understandably) upset in a different way that most of the camping college students.

It matters because this is also a religious conflict, although most everyone is a Monotheist.

I didn't speculate on their nationality. I presume most are Americans.

[LeftInTX]

98. It unfortunately is coming from both.

Too many youth are soaking up old fashioned conspiracy theories about Jews via social media.
(Jews own the banks. Jews own the media)
Muslims are likely the original source of those modern CT being spread via social media but once they are out there, they get passed among non-Muslims

Progressive Activism Against Israel Is Helping to Fuel Antisemitism Among Young People
Those under 30 are far more likely to view antisemitism as not a serious problem, particularly in comparison to Islamophobia and anti-Arab attitudes (even though Jews are six times more likely to be the victims of hate crimes than American Muslims).

Young people are more inclined to believe that “Jews have too much power in America,” and nearly one in four agree with the statement that “the Holocaust has been exaggerated.” In addition, according to a recent YouGov/Economist poll, 20 percent of young people believe the Holocaust is a myth, while 30 percent were unsure. And these attitudes pre-date Oct. 7.

For that, the pro-Palestinian activist community, which is increasingly legitimizing anti-Israel and anti-Jewish hatred, needs to accept some responsibility.

As Palestine has become a cause celebre among young, progressive activists—all the complexity of a century-old conflict has been wrung out and replaced with a simplistic framework that presents Israelis and Jews as fundamentally evil.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/progressive-activism-against-israel-is-helping-to-fuel-antisemitism-among-young-people

High school girls’ basketball game aborted in New York amid antisemitic slurs

During the game, which also reportedly turned physically violent, a Roosevelt player told a visiting Jewish opponent, “I support Hamas, you f-cking Jew,” The New York Post reported, citing the New York City Public Schools Alliance, a group of parents and teachers dedicated to combating antisemitism.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/high-school-girls-basketball-game-aborted-in-new-york-amid-antisemitic-slurs/

[maxsolomon]

106. I'm reacting to the videos and photos I've seen from the on-campus and campus-adjacent protests.

the explicitly antisemitic and pro-Hamas rhetoric is not coming from students at Columbia, but they are being tarred with it and trying to disavow it.

that's what the editor of the Columbia University student paper ( https://www.columbiaspectator.com/ ) was saying on Alex Wagner's show last night. smart kid.

[malaise]

35. THIS

Rec

[Happy Hoosier]

40. Ah Yes...

Apparently Jews must be content to live as subjects of states they must hop tolerate them. How dare they aspire to more. Fucking disgusting.

[claudette]

46. Who are

Jews subject to in Israel - other than the Israeli government. It is the Palestinians who Israel wants to "be content to live as subjects of states they must hope tolerate them. How dare they (Palestinians) aspire to more."

[Happy Hoosier]

90. The point of the essay...

Was to abandon zionism (support for a Jewish state in Israel) and embrace Judaism as an “international” movement. That is, Jews should only live ve is the diaspora.

That’s why I support Israel. Jews, given their history, deserve more than that if they want it.

[PCIntern]

43. This makes me want to vomit, fast as a comet.

There’s a whole movement within Judaism which subscribes to this puerile nonsense. I have walked out during sermons which have turned in this direction. The individual has the right to spout this and I have the right to leave in the middle.

[maxsolomon]

54. Fine. Zionism is a false idol. What now, Naomi "Not Naomi Wolf" Klein?

The clock cannot be turned back to 1946.

Israel dissolves itself and becomes a multi-ethnic state called Palestine? That won't erase fear.

Israeli Jews immigrate en masse to Utah? All the place names are ready thanks to the Mormons.

Zion is a fact on the ground.

[Sibelius Fan]

55. We need an exodus from religion.

[LauraInLA]

69. Except being Jewish is not even a matter of religion.

[Raven123]

56. I'm a little confused. What does the author think of events after the mount.

My recollection is there was a lot of fighting for land. I think the author is openly sharing her own struggles with the current situation, but it sure seems to miss some importance details. From what residence does the author write? What do you tell the people living in Israel? Leave?

I don’t pretend to grasp the complexity of this centuries old conflict. I don’t support Netanyahu. I just think there are some holes in this particular argument.

[Mosby]

59. The International Jew Add. 1 - by Naomi Klein

[jg10003]

61. 4 claims about "our Judaism", all of them wrong.

Our Judaism cannot be contained by an ethnostate, for our Judaism is internationalist by nature.

Judaism is international because we were expelled from our homeland by the Romans. Afterwards we were constantly expelled from one country after another. Spain,France, England, Germanic states, Russia, and many more forced us to seek refuge elsewhere. Judaism is internationalist due to persecution, not nature.

Our Judaism cannot be protected by the rampaging military of that state, for all that military does is sow sorrow and reap hatred – including against us as Jews.

Israel is fighting a war against Hamas. Hamas hides behind civilians. Civilians get killed. Civilians always suffer when their government starts a war. Berlin, Dresden, The fire-bombing of Tokyo, and of course Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Every war is tragic. The only thing different about Gaza is that modern technology makes the horror of war a lot more visible now than in the past. As for reaping hatred, since when does hatred of the Jews need a reason to exist.

Our Judaism is not threatened by people raising their voices in solidarity with Palestine across lines of race, ethnicity, physical ability, gender identity and generations.

Hateful words lead to hateful acts. Violence against Jews is increasing. The slogan "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" is a direct threat to the existence of Israel.

Our Judaism is one of those voices and knows that in that chorus lies both our safety and our collective liberation.

Cooperating with those who hate us will not make us safe.

[madaboutharry]

81. A simple google search reveals that Naomi Klein has been the Queen of self-hating Jews since she was 12 years old.

She boasts that her bat mitzvah speech was about how Jews are racists. Apparently, she arrived at this conclusion because of how she viewed her classmates at the Jewish school she attended in Montreal.

As the years passed, her hatred for Israel has only intensified and become more irrational. She does not engage in legitimate criticism of government policy or Israeli leadership. She is a hater. She has denigrated and demonized the Israeli people. She is exhibit 1A of Jews whose "Jewishness" serves one purpose: To take out as an entry ticket that bestows an imagined greater authority and moral high ground when demonizing Israel.

Naomi Klein is not this "good Jew" she seeks to present to the world. That is some conjured up image in the minds of antisemites, both Jewish and non-Jewish ones.

Naomi Klein is a Shanda to the Jewish people. She makes me want to throw up.

[True Blue American]

82. Agree!

[IronLionZion]

83. She doesn't make her point very clearly

I've seen similar opinion pieces on whether Israel's future is to be a Jewish state or a democracy. Because demographics make it a conflict to try to be a Jewish democracy for people there who are not Jewish.

If it was easy, it would have been resolved long ago. The world only has one Jewish state so the argument could be made to keep Israel Jewish. But what to do about the Palestinian people in the occupied territories? The prospect of leave or die shouldn't sit well with liberals. Many conservatives would like liberals to leave the USA, for example, or for immigrants/minorities to leave. So I don't like talk of forcing Gaza people to cross the border to Egypt. That feels biblical.

[moniss]

87. I think there is an issue

that the Israeli public in general is going to have to resolve regarding their leadership and political parties. If you look at the ideology of some of the coalition parties it is not a recipe for going forward away from extremism. But will the public reject Likud and the fringe in large enough numbers so that something more centrist can take over? No success in that so far.

Most people in the US only know a little about Likud but not much about the others in the coalition. Right now the coalition doesn't just lean radical right it is firmly in that territory. It is a legacy in some ways of the types of old leaders of Haganah, Irgun, Lehi. Stern Gang etc. having been embraced as political leaders and major figures in political parties. The anti-Arab, Jewish Supremacy/nationalist factions in some of those coalition partners is dogma.

So as Hamas/Hezbollah and others use the lives of the average Palestinian citizen as a thing they use to hide behind and justify their actions and extreme views so too do various political parties, leaders and groups in Israel do likewise with the average Israeli citizen.

So what will improve this awful situation? I don't know that it will be improved because I do not see anybody in the parties/factions on either side of the matter who is strong enough to stand up and make radical change in the direction of peace. Unfortunately there is no shortage of political cowards on all sides who find waging violence against each other and claiming revenge to be a much easier thing to do.

If Hamas and all the others disappeared tomorrow there will not be a separate Palestinian State agreed to because the radical right parties, including Likud, have said they will not allow it under any circumstances. Likud has said previously that all land between the river and the sea is to be Israel.

If all of the far right in Israel suddenly disappeared and Israel offered to remove all settlements, grant right of return, compensate for land etc. taken and to agree to a separate Palestinian state it would not mean Hamas, Hezbollah etc. is going to suddenly go away. They will likely in fact tighten their grip.

I can only observe and say that the "Gordian knot" here has been tied and constructed by many hands, acts and twists over time. Unlike Alexander there is no application of a sword available to cut through the knot. We see the knot drawn tighter with every move and it's riddle more complex. A knot that cannot be undone because all of the parties do not want it undone. The existence of the knot is used to justify their existence in power, their propaganda and their hollow promises to their people about how they care about them.