Hundreds of mental health experts sign Dr. John Gartner's Trump dementia petition

[Bundbuster]

https://www.salon.com/2024/03/14/experts-are-desperate-to-warn-the-public-hundreds-sign-dr-john-gartners-dementia-petition/

*snip*

Since at least 2016, a brave, determined, and stalwart group of psychologists and other mental health professionals have been trying to warn the public about Donald Trump’s obvious unwellness and pathological behavior. Based on mountains of public evidence of Trump’s behavior and what he has encouraged in others, these mental health experts concluded that the corrupt twice-impeached ex-president, a sexual assaulter as confirmed by a court of law, aspiring dictator, and defendant who is now facing hundreds of years in prison appears to be a sociopath if not a full-on psychopath.

Our conversations are starting to feel like a weekly dementia round-up. Trump keeps proving my point. This week’s lowlights include more phonemic aphasias. Here are a few examples I have noted. “We have becrumb a nation.” “All comp-ply-ments” to Joe Biden. “I know Poten.” "He can’t cam-pay." He can’t campaign. “We will expel the wald-mongers.” We had more examples where Trump couldn’t complete a sentence and strung the fragments together incoherently. It’s worth noting that his demeanor changes dramatically at these moments. At one point, Trump was making nonsense sounds, struggling to form even a single word. At one of his events, he said “We’ll re-ve-du. Ohhhh..” At that moment, Trump took a long-defeated sigh, and looked up at the ceiling blankly, looking confused and de-energized. Finally, Trump is sometimes reduced to simply vocalizing nonsense sounds that are not words at all like an infant. For example, at a recent rally Trump said "Gang, boom. This is me. I hear bing". Trump is literally babbling nonsensically and his followers at these rallies, or interviewers on right-wing media, are nodding their heads in appreciation like he makes sense. This is deeply disturbing.

Trump’s a classic case of dementia. He ticks all the boxes. He’s shown a precipitous decline from his baseline—He once had a rich vocabulary and spoke in polished paragraphs. And he shows the classic disturbances in memory, language, behavior, and motor performance that we see in dementia patients. If Trump were their patient or my family member, they would urgently refer him for an emergency neuropsychiatric evaluation. And under no circumstances would a patient showing this level or organic cognitive decline be capable of being president.

We're not talking about a demented Ronald Reagan, who still loved America, and in the end wanted to do right for the country. Donald Trump has shown himself to be a traitor who will do anything he can to hurt the country for his own benefit. That is Trump's default position. Were Trump to become president again, how hard would it really be for our foreign adversaries to manipulate a president who can already be won over with simple ego-stroking and bribes, but is now also experiencing obvious cognitive decline?

[2naSalit]

2. Most of us can see it...

I'm glad professionals are speaking up.

[calimary]

3. We need to think our way around him.

What can we do to block and interfere? And start peeling away a few layers of his fans.

[Bundbuster]

5. Since Magats are not reality and reason-based

We need to round up the maximum number of thinking people, further enlighten them with facts like this, and Vote, vote, vote.

[calimary]

16. YES. THIS.

THIS, Dammit!!!

Vote Vote Vote!!!

[progressoid]

4. That's nice.

Won't make a dent in his support, but that's still nice.

[SpankMe]

6. It's about time

When the Orange Asshole ® was in office, no psychologists would diagnose him due to various ethics principles (i.e., you can't diagnose a patient without direct examination, etc.).

I guess now that the publicly available data on TFG is so voluminous, the psych sector is willing to step up to the plate.

[Bundbuster]

7. That professional silence was due to "The Goldwater Rule"

https://www.psychiatry.org/news-room/goldwater-rule#:~:text=The%20rule%20applies%20to%20public,statement%E2%80%9D%20(see%20sidebar).

*snip*

Restraint of psychiatrists’ comments on political candidates is grounded in APA’s response to an attempt to question Barry Goldwater’s mental health during the 1964 campaign for president.

APA’s formal response came in 1973 with the adoption of Section 7.3 in the Principles of Medical Ethics with Annotations Especially Applicable to Psychiatry, which became known as the Goldwater Rule.

The rule applies to public figures and states: “It is unethical for a psychiatrist to offer a professional opinion unless he or she has conducted an examination and has been granted proper authorization for such a statement.”

Personally, I think it's a crock of shit. If I'm allowed to run around the digital world calling Slobby a raging lunatic rapist, or Cheney a sadistic mass murdering war criminal (both of which I've done), why should a mental health professional be prevented from such?

[Model35mech]

10. Why? To protect their profession they must follow Proper Practice

Otherwise everyone, and I do mean everyone, will come to the conclusion that psychiatric dx's are 'shot from the hip' with little firsthand evidence.

That attitude in the general public is the reason that 25-30% of Americans experience symptoms of mental illness every year, but only 5%-10% of Americans seek therapy.

Such attitudes make Mental Health seem like something outside of necessary insurance to cover clinical assistance

I much prefer psychologists (MA's and PhDs) and psychiatrists (MD's with a mental health specialty) behaving ethically, and simultaneously protecting those of us who need therapy from ridicule because the profession lacks professionalism.

[NH Ethylene]

17. Every candidate would have a mental health expert calling them mentally ill or demented.

It's a good rule. In this instance, the evidence is so clear that a high school kid taking Intro to Psychology could diagnose Trump's cluster of mental issues. It seems right that professionals should be able to chime in. But if we turn it around politically so it's our person being diagnosed, and if we then take it to the extreme, we can see how problematic it would be.

Still, I feel this particular person is so dangerous and there is such a wealth of material to examine, that it merits an exception.

[happy feet]

19. Actually a book was produced by professionals - "Duty to Warn" during TFG's presidency

[H2O Man]

24. Also

Dr. Bandy Lee wrote & edited "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump," with a number of other top professionals. They recognized that the duty to warn trumps the Goldwater Rule -- which originated after Mrs. Goldwater told a women's magazine that Barry had been hospitalized for "nervous breakdowns." This was during his campaign for president, and resulted in both informed and uninformed speculation.

Dr. Lee did meet with several Democrats in Congress at the time, and was initially a frequent guest on the news. However, she would become blacklisted by the owners of media. Older DUers will be familiar with the series of three interviews I did with Bandy in 2020 for this forum.

[Bundbuster]

30. Exactly. Thanks for reminding us

I feel that in certain dire scenarios, it is not only the right but the duty of trained professionals to warn the citizenry of dangerously "unbalanced" politicians or advisors whose mental afflictions pose a serious danger to the country, and even the world. In my lifetime, tRump is by far the most obvious example of such a danger.

Others might nominate Dick Cheney or Henry Kissinger, megalomaniacal sadists in my book, but not nearly so obviously sociopathic and paranoid as the defendant.

[H2O Man]

32. Yet

one should never go duck hunting with Dick Cheney.

[Bundbuster]

34. Not on your life

[Prairie Gates]

8. Old enough to remember when this board roasted Sen. Frist for diagnosis at a distance

[niyad]

25. Cat killer frist? who "diagnosed" braindead Terry Schiavo based on a few

minutes of video? Do you think there might be a tiny bit of difference?

[keithbvadu2]

33. Yes. Frist LOUDLY said Schiavo was alert and later quietly covered his but with a disclaimer.

[returnee]

44. Presence or absence of neurological activity...

…in the brain is not generally considered a psychiatric issue. More for the ICU/neurology team. There is also a difference between psychiatric diagnosis and commentary. When legal experts opine on a publicly reported legal concern, they are not generally accused of convicting the person in question, and their commentary is generally appreciated. Should be no different for mental health experts. The public is not given enough information from mental health experts for good decision-making about people in or running for office.

[Elessar Zappa]

36. Not the same thing and you know it.

[usaf-vet]

9. Years ago, I was involved in co-authoring a book that would be used in public high school computer classes.

I sent in the first draft and received a returned marked-up copy from the editor, who told me that it needed to be written for a fifth-grade reading level.

This was 20 years ago, and I would hate to venture a guess at what reading level it would need to be written for now.

My point is these explanations about Trump's cognitive decline are likely written at a level above the comprehension level of any cult member if they were to read about his mental health state.

I have long ago lost the links to the online software to evaluate a sample of a paragraph for it's reading level.

I'm just making this point considering the current cultist's ability to understand or care to understand warnings from experts.

[billh58]

23. MS Word

Microsoft Word has the built in capability to evaluate a document's reading level (school grade level). It's in Options/Proofing/Show Readability Statistics. It needs to be enabled to work.

[Joinfortmill]

45. Sadly, this has been true for a very long time.

[Kablooie]

11. Republicans would deny this even if Trump were mumbling and bumping into things on stage.

They have given their whole party over to Trump and there's no way they will ever admit to being wrong.
Some day, when he dies, they will probably pickle his body and keep it on display for decades so they can continuously bow down and worship him.

[Pacifist Patriot]

12. Okay, I'm going to be pedantic about this. Because it is a pet peeve of mine, I know.

sociopath if not a full-on psychopath

This statement is meaningless to the general public and not well-defined in the DSM or by mental health professionals. The man has a serious antisocial personality disorder that renders him unfit for the presidency - or for local dog catcher, full stop. He is a dangerous criminal who should never be in a position of authority over anyone. Anyone with a modicum of critical thinking skills can discern this!

[keithbvadu2]

40. We had a previous discussion on psychopath, sociopath, and narcissism. Many similarities.

Had to look them up. The differences seem minute.

They seem to do pretty much the same behaviors/actions but the psychopath seems to be slightly more deliberative and self-controlling.

Psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits. It is sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy.

Psychopaths tend to be more manipulative, can be seen by others as more charming, lead a semblance of a normal life, and minimize risk in criminal activities. Sociopaths tend to be more erratic, rage-prone, and unable to lead as much of a normal life.

sociopath - a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213270897

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217445003#post34
w/youtube video

[Pacifist Patriot]

50. That's my point.

The differences are so minute, the sentence is meaningless to most people.

[Ping Tung]

13. Which is the equivalent of reporting that the Sahara desert is sandy.

They could have added, narcissistic, sociopathic, psychotic, neurotic, and obviously an asshole.

[niyad]

26. Exactly!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

14. I am glad to read about this development among mental health experts! Thank you, my dear Bundbuster, for posting it. nt

[Warpy]

15. Not ion the dementia bandwagon quite yet

since the same symptoms can be produced by extreme stress with or without the drug abuse which has been reported. If the familial dementia is kicking in, it's in the very early stages.

He is a malignant narcissist, he might as well have a flashing neon sign attached to his big gut. For that reason, he should be absolutely disqualified from holding any governmental position.

I want him OUT. This petition won't do it, unfortunately. Maybe shoving a rocket up Garland's ass will get him moving on this stuff.

[dchill]

18. Dementia: the only progressive thing about Trump.

[niyad]

28. Snicker!

[ShazzieB]

20. I posted about this petition recently!

Here's the link to my post: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218766988

I'm really glad to see this getting some media attention, even if only on the internet so far. I hope this is just the beginning!

[lindysalsagal]

21. The entire GQP is crazy to put up a candidate that's likely to be jailed a criminal

and one who's already violated his oath of office numerous times, not forgetting the insurrection and alternate electors.

[bigtime]

22. I disagree with the assertion that he once had a "rich vocabulary"

Clearly he has gotten worse, but he’s always been pretty limited.

[Attilatheblond]

48. Yep, he used to be able to string enough words together to con investors & bankers, but the words were not complicated.

Flattery and basic appeals to people's greed do not require a lot of language skills. He relied on swarm in place of real charm. His one talent seems to have been to be able to pick marks well.

People who don't read, and we are told he doesn't, do not grow decent vocabularies. Now, as limited as his words were, he is losing them, confusing them, and abusing them. The only people he can con now are those who either see him as a way for themselves to get power and money, and those who are language limited and unable to do basic logic.

In business operation, when swarm failed, it sure looks like he went the bully route. A lot (if not most) bullies are intimidating but not real bright. That might have been what caught Putin's eye.

[angrychair]

27. This is unprofessional

And medically unethical. Just because they want to do this to our guy, it doesn't make it right to do to him. It is not moral or ethical to diagnose from a distance. This means nothing and gets us nothing. It's not a path we want to go down.

[Bonx]

29. True. The good thing is no one is paying any attention to this.

Outside of the fringes.

[Bundbuster]

35. Would you consider these unprofessional decisions?

- In the years between 1923 and 1938, a group of German psychiatrists announce to the populace that in their diagnostic opinion Adolph Hitler is a psychotic, narcissistic meglomaniac, capable of genocidal actions.

- Same is done by Soviet psychiatrists regarding Joseph Stalin during his rise to power.

Sure, those psychiatrists would have no doubt been executed. But I maintain that there are exceptions to The Goldwater Rule, and in the above cases such exceptions could have saved tens of millions of lives, and spared the world 6 years of death & destruction.

[NanaCat]

31. He was this way in 2015, too.

Few in our tabloid media dared to point it out.

And he was never a polished speaker. He may have been slightly less chaotic, but he was still a fumbling, bumbling, incoherent and bloody stupid wazzock.

[Mr.Bill]

37. I strongly disagree with the

first sentence in the last paragraph of the OP.

Ronald Reagan was a fucking monster.

[Bundbuster]

38. You got that right - a monster on so many levels

- Listened to his advisors in the early years of the AIDS crisis, telling him "Wait, look at who it's taking out - f*gs, n***ers, drug addicts, whores. Let it go." And Saint Ronnie never even mentioned AIDS in a speech until 1987. Deaths on his hands to rival tRump's COVID toll.

- Launched his 1980 general election campaign with a speech lauding “states’ rights” outside Philadelphia, Mississippi — the site of the notorious “Mississippi Burning” murder of three civil rights workers in 1964. The loudest possible dog whistle to his racist base.

- Exploded the national deficit and enshrined trickle down economics.

- Iran Contra...and so much more.

The author here goes overboard trying to totally isolate tRump from other repub cretins. However, Reagan never showed the degree of mental damage that Slobby has.

[Mr.Bill]

39. As far as con men go, Reagan makes Trump look like an amateur.

Trump lost his bid for a second term. Reagan won 49 states in 1984. Some Democratic media people still speak well of Reagan. Notably Chris Matthews.

[SupportSanity]

41. A group of psychiatrists tried to warn us about Trump and wrote a book:

"The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President" Hardcover – October 3, 2017

https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Case-Donald-Trump-Psychiatrists/dp/1250179459

They tried to warn us. Some of the authors were interviewed in the media and promptly ignored and belittled.

They tried to warn us and they were scolded by their own organization for attempting to diagnose from a distance.

But, they did try to warn us back then.

[Aussie105]

42. No need to dig deep into what is wrong with Trump.

Beyond knowing he is useless as a President, and more than that, dangerously destructive.

There are no consequences attached to any diagnosis from a distance.

Good reason to not let him back into the White House though. Last time was messy enough.

[frogstar0]

43. Has anyone found a video of either the quoted

Has anyone found a video of "Gang, boom. This is me. I hear bing". Or the super cut?

[Conjuay]

46. when did trump have a "rich" vocabulary?

when he talked about all his money and properties?

He’s been Duffus Deluxe his entire existence.

[Firestorm49]

47. Literally hundreds of psychologists signed a similar paper before the goof got into office the first time.

[DC77]

49. "He once had a rich vocabulary and spoke in polished paragraphs"

Bhahahaha. Never. Not even at the “top” of his game. 😝😝😝