Should US keep arming Israel? Poll finds most Americans want weapon shipments to stop

[DemocraticPatriot]

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article286584265.html


Most Americans want the U.S. government to stop supplying weapons to Israel, according to new polling.

A narrow majority of U.S. adults, 52%, said American arms shipments should be stopped until Israel ends its attacks in Gaza, according to a YouGov poll released on March 11.

Less than one-third of respondents, 27%, said the shipments should not be halted, and 21% were unsure.

The poll, commissioned by the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) — a think tank in Washington, D.C. — sampled 1,000 U.S. adults, and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points. The question over additional military aid revealed a strong partisan divide among respondents.

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article286584265.html#storylink=cpy



Count me among the majority! --- and the vast majority of Democrats, according to this poll....

[TexasDem69]

1. So the margin of error is pretty big

And you might be among the minority. I firmly support President Biden on this issue, along with Israel’s right to defend its citizens against rapists, child murderers and kidnappers. Do you support the rapists and child murderers or our ally Israel?

[DemocraticPatriot]

2. 3.5 percentage points is not a "pretty big" margin of error,

it is more or less average--- and it was not as if this poll was even close....


As for the rest of your bullshit, you can shove it.

I don't support "child murders",
whether they are committed by Hamas,
or by our long-time ally Israel, IN GAZA... using our bombs.


President Biden would be wise to shift on this issue,
but I will of course be voting for him in November.

[TexasDem69]

3. We both intend on voting for President Biden

And we both support Israel. That’ll do.

[DemocraticPatriot]

15. I do NOT support what Israel is doing now.

And in the words of President Biden, it is "over the top"

Enough is enough.

I have grown weary of the Israeli October 7th "get out of jail free" card




If they want to continue their atrocity on Gaza, they can do it without my tax dollars.

President Biden was quite right when he said that what they are doing
is diminishing their support over the entire world.

It is certainly 'diminishing their support' with me.

[Butterflylady]

28. Bibi is not our alli.

He is a big supporter of the con. I'm with you on terminating support.

[Mossfern]

53. Netanyahu is not loved in Israel

Before October 7th there were protests and marches against him and his cronies. He was being brought up on charges (gotta look that up). Punishing Israel by not supporting it's defense because of Bibi is like punishing all Americans because of Trump.

It IS the intent of Hamas to kill every Jewish person and eradicate Israel.
The bombing and attacks will end when the hostages are released or their bodies returned
and Hamas surrenders. Hamas has specifically stated that they don't care about Gazans and that their deaths and suffering is a benefit to Hamas and it's goals.

To demand a cease fire of Israel unilaterally is a death sentence. Hamas broke the cease fire that was in place on October 7th. Do you really think they will honor another one?

on edit: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/04/world/netanyahu-corruption-trial-resumes/index.html

[DemocraticPatriot]

56. Whatever the 'intent' of Hamas, they do not have the ability

"to kill every Jewish person and eradicate Israel" by any stretch of the imagination. Your talk of a 'death sentence' against Israel is a fantastic hyperbole.


Israel, on the other hand, DOES have the ability to completely level the Gaza strip,
and they are roughly half-way there, already...

[Mossfern]

59. If it were the intent of Israel to level Gaza

it would have been done months ago.

If you look at the broader view, consider the marked increase of antisemitism in the US and Europe. Hamas doesn't have to personally kill Jews, they are doing it by proxy through social media and the press.

Again, all that needs to happen for the bombings to stop is for the hostages to be returned and Hamas to surrender. The fate of innocent Gazans in in the hands of Hamas, not Israel.

[Delmette2.0]

50. I agree with what you wrote.

[lapfog_1]

10. two things

1. Lets say we somehow stop shipping weapons to Israel... what will we do to stop Hamas from continuing to attack Israel? and 2. Why do you think stopping weapons to Israel will make them stop? Other than Iron dome anti-missile missiles.. is there any evidence that Israel is running out of bullets or grenades or tank shells? And even if they are short some weapons, do you think the lack of US made weapons will make them stop?

My feeling is that if we cut off all military and money support for Israel... Israel attacks Gaza harder and faster with the remaining weapons they have... with even more civilian casualties. and we lose any leverage we have to try to force a cease fire.

[DemocraticPatriot]

54. I never claimed it would make them 'stop'....

but it'll make them stop doing it with weapons which were paid for by my tax dollars.


We would not 'lose leverage' over them---

After the assistance is cut off, the 'leverage' will be
if they want to get that aid back...

[lapfog_1]

61. or they align with someone else... possibly Russia

Russia might well trade their support for Iran for Israel... or play the global peace maker between the two sides, stepping into the role of supporting Netanyahu while also solving Syria and Hamas. Leaving us as "outsider looking in" and, creating even more division here as those who want to see Israel "cease fire" might now call for Russia to "win" and divide the nation of Ukraine.

[Chautauquas]

5. So anyone who doesn't support Israel

supports rapists and child murderers? I just want to be clear on what you're saying here.

[TexasDem69]

6. It's not a complicated post

Hamas is comprised of child murderers, rapists, and kidnappers. Wouldn’t you agree?

[Chautauquas]

7. I would agree with what you said about Hamas

but saying that anyone who doesn't support Israel supports child murderers and rapists sounds like something Trump would say.

[emulatorloo]

14. Trump is a rapist, so I doubt he would say that.

[DemocraticPatriot]

16. And the IDF is comprised of child and women murderers,

and soldiers who gun down unarmed civilians who are frantically rushing towards food trucks....

Wouldn't you agree ?
(I'm sure you don't--- but the question is asked in the same spirit in which you asked yours.)

There are no good guys in that war.

Israel started out with the moral high ground,
and they have squandered it by trying to bomb Gaza into oblivion
and killing a much vaster number of women and children
than were victims of the Oct. 7 attacks against Israel

The time for them to stop is
A COUPLE MONTHS AGO

[TheKentuckian]

34. Hamas was not broken a couple months ago so why

would they have randomly stopped and just leave the same threat in place?

If the issue was some artificial time limit then the casualties would have swelled far higher.

I don't follow what the imagined objective was supposed to be in minds bent in this sort of direction.

[Butterflylady]

29. Have you ever seen what starvation does to a body. Especially a child.

It's not a pretty site. All children should have happy memories of their childhood. But these children will not have that. They no doubt will have traumatic lives and will make them terrorists to avenge their families death. This will go on and on just as has before because this is the Middle East and that is life there. Hatred on is both sides.

[Act_of_Reparation]

36. True. It was very a uncomplicated attempt to poison the well.

Lately, this place has been giving me lots of politics-circa-2001 vibes, and not in a good way.

[TexasDem69]

40. It was not

And I’ll accept your apology in advance.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

42. Nice false dichotomy?

It's not support Israel or support rapists, for fuck's sake. I can hate Hamas, hate Bibi, support citizens of Israel to be free from terrorist attack, and want Israel to stop killing civilians in Gaza. All at one time.

How about, Do you support the right-wing fascist leader of Israel or support stopping the killing of innocent children?

[TexasDem69]

46. I support Israel's right of self defense

And it’s efforts to eliminate Hamas and prevent 10/7 from ever happening again. The children dying in Gaza are dying because Hamas is led by and filled with individuals who are rapists and murderers who hide in schools and homes and hospitals to avoid justice for the murders, rapes and kidnappings that occurred on 10/7. Hamas then criticizes Israel for attacking those hospitals or schools in an effort to stamp out Hamas and some in the U.S. are naive enough to buy into Hamas’ lies. But Hamas is no different than the Nazi in 1942 who put Jews, or gypsies, or handicapped in the gas chambers. Hamas can’t be reasoned with and can’t be trusted and must be eliminated.

As for Netanyahu, he should have been removed years ago, but Israeli’s are stuck with him just like we might be stuck with Trump if he wins in November.

[DemocraticPatriot]

57. Leveling Gaza is NOT "self-defense". It is ATROCITY....

It seems to me that Netanyahoo and the majority of the Israeli government
"can't be reasoned with and can't be trusted" either.

Must they also be "eliminated" ???

[appleannie1]

4. I can understand going after Hamas, but

outright killing thousands of innocent children first with bombs, then with bullets and now by starving them to death makes them a mirror image of Hamas. They all should stop. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[TexasDem69]

8. Do you really believe that has happened?

That Israel has killed thousands of children with bullets? And do you really think that Israel and Hamas are a mirror image of each other? How would you propose that Israel eliminate Hamas without any civilian casualties?

[patphil]

9. A combination of bullets, bombs, artillery fire, and collapsing buildings killed many ...

thousands of women and children.
I seriously doubt that more than 1/3 of the dead are Hamas.
Fighting wars in cities will kill civilians, but leveling cities guarantees large numbers of civilian casualties.
From my point of view, both sides bear responsibility for the pain, suffering, death and destruction that has occurred in both Israel and Gaza.
As for eliminating Hamas, the scenes of carnage in Gaza are the best recruitment videos Hamas could ever hope for. These same scenes are seriously damaging Israel's image as the injured party, and it is looking more and more like revenge each day.

I see no end to this 75+ year blood feud, since neither side appears to be interested in ending it.

[TheKentuckian]

20. Your "As for eliminating Hamas" includes no actual

elimination of Hamas.

They had tens of thousands of operatives when this started so recruiting doesn't seem to be much of a challenge.

The main competition seems to be other flavors of terrorism based on religious sect not a peace movement.

[patphil]

26. That's my point exactly.

The current actions of Israel won't eliminate Hamas.
All it ensures is that Hamas will have all the new recruits it needs to keep going indefinitely.
Hate is driving this war forward on both sides.
Each new atrocity fans the fires of that hate, and keeps that fire raging throughout the region.

[DemocraticPatriot]

17. No, not with bullets--- with AMERICAN BOMBS.

I propose that there has been ENOUGH killing.

The Israeli invasion of Gaza is not 'defense'--- it is now a war ofAGGRESSION

(which is a 'war crime' as well as a 'crime against humanity',
according to the trials in Nuremburg...)

[Butterflylady]

32. Do you not realize where this is happening?

It's the Middle lEast. This is way of life and has been for thousands of years. You can't expect it to ever happen. Why can't people understand that? Netanyahu knows this and uses this to get what he wants. The land is more important to him then people. This war is now doing damage to both Israel and the Palestinian people.

[DemocraticPatriot]

58. NO, Israel did not kill thousands of children with bullets... BIG BOMBS

are so much more efficient, especially when they are dropped on apartment blocks...

[Mosby]

11. It's a fairly clever push poll.

"Do you think that the US should stop weapons shipments to Israel until Israel discontinues it's attacks on the people of Gaza?"

You see what they did?

Israel is fighting a war with Hamas, not the "people of Gaza".

They set up this question with a flawed statement:

"Experts have said that Israel would not be able to continue these attacks on the people of Gaza..."

That primed the respondent to frame the conflict in a distorted way, which led to the results they wanted.

[DemocraticPatriot]

19. Israel may think they are fighting a war with Hamas, and I suppose they are---

but in my judgement they are killing many more civilians in Gaza than Hamas fighters,
and it is in no way inaccurate that they are
"attacking the people of Gaza",
and the aims of the far-right Israeli politicians,
may indeed equal the definitions of 'Genocide'.


It doesn't matter whom the Israelis are 'presumably' aiming their bombs at,
when the bombs are falling on your head

and then when you go try to get food, the Israeli soldiers gun you down....

I'm done with it.

[Sympthsical]

12. The poll question is extremely pushy

"Experts have said that Israel would not be able to continue these attacks on the people of Gaza without continued shipments of weapons from the United States . . ."

That question doesn't even feign neutrality. And notice it starts with "These attacks" which means there was framing preceding the question that they've deliberately left out of their press release.

I imagine Americans are fairly split, but that question and the fact they're not being open with either their question framing, data, and demographics is . . . interesting.

I'd be interested to see a transparent version of the poll with the demographic data.

[Beastly Boy]

13. A GIGO poll

The question in the poll was: "Do you think that the US should stop weapons shipments to Israel until Israel discontinues its attacks on the people of Gaza?"
https://cepr.net/press-release/poll-majority-of-americans-say-biden-should-halt-weapons-shipments-to-israel/

Israel doesn't attack the people of Gaza.

[DemocraticPatriot]

18. No, of course, they only drop big bombs on their heads

while aiming very poorly at other people, and killing women and children in the process.


I no longer have any admiration for the presumed abilities of the Israeli military,
because they obviously have no clue about what the fuck they are doing....


and when they get bored, they gun down unarmed civilians who are frantic to receive food

[Beastly Boy]

21. Your reply does nothing to justify the garbage in the phrasing of that poll question.

Notwithstanding your snark and opinions, which I don't entirely buy into, do you have anything to say in defense of a garbage question that the poll participants were compelled to reply to?

Do you think the poll results would be different if the question would have been differently phrased? For instance:
""Do you think that the US should stop weapons shipments to Israel while Hamas continues using the people of Gaza as human shields?"

[BuddhaGirl]

31. +1

Israel knows exactly what it's doing. Such a disingenuous statement from the poster you were replying to.

[Oneironaut]

22. Yes.

They can supply themselves.

[sarisataka]

23. I wonder how many would respond positively

if the question was "should the US arm Palestinians"

[PufPuf23]

39. No one at DU would say arm Palestinians. nt

[Ping Tung]

24. The USA is already the biggest arms dealer in the world.

And, there are stacks of money to be made in the Middle East. And a lot of civilians need to be killed by both sides for whatever their noble "Cause" is.

Yes. We should stop supplying arms to Israel and all the rest of the people who are determined to murder others.

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? Gandhi[/b]

[Mosby]

30. So you're a pacifist?

Should Ukraine hand over part of their country to Russia?

Israel shouldn't defend themselves?

What about the girls kidnapped in Nigeria? Oh well?

How about Haiti? Just let the gangs take over because someone might get hurt it the government fights back?

[Ping Tung]

33. I am a pacifist.

Tell me how killing civilians is working out for Ukraine, Israel, Nigeria, Haiti, or anywhere?

[TheKentuckian]

35. What is the attraction for pacifists for the aggressors

and why must the strongmen, terrorists, theocrats, and dictators get preferred status in the supposed pursuit of peace about everytime?

[Ping Tung]

38. What "preferred status"?

As a pacifist I'm against violence against anyone. Strong men, terrorists, etc indulge in violence which I'm against.

Are Palestinian civilians terrorists, dictators, etc? Or are they just "collateral damage" of the killers?

No cause justifies the deaths of innocent people.
Albert Camus

[TheKentuckian]

47. Letting them run amok in the name of pacifism

seems very preferred.

They do as they will and the demand for the attacked and subjugated to fold to their whims seems absolutely stupicidal to me.

[Ping Tung]

49. How do you intend to seperate the killers and oppressors from the ordinary folks?

What's the difference between some killer "running amok" and some other killer dropping bombs by "just following orders" killing civilians? Was the bombardier on the Enola Gay "running amok" or just some stooge "doing his duty"? Did the Hamas killers think they were just "doing their duty" by butchering Israelis?

I have no sympathy for anyone who kills the innocents no matter the what the rationale or cause is.

How many people died in Iraq to save us from Saddam's WMD's? Or Asians to protect us from the "falling dominoes"?

Patriots like to talk about dying for their country. They seldom talk about killing for their country.
Bertrand Russell

[Chakaconcarne]

25. Yep.. they should be funding their own endeavors...

Let the Israeli people feel the pinch and in turn put more pressure on their dicktator.

[Happy Hoosier]

27. I am in favor of withholding aid unless some conditions are met....

... but let's be clear, we cannot make Israel stop anything. They will press on with or without our aid. The best we can hope for is to influence, or just withdraw what infleunce we have and just look on.

[LeftInTX]

37. Our military aid to Israel is a 10 year commitment. It was renewed for FY 2019-2028

In 2016, the U.S. and Israeli governments signed their third 10-year Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on military aid,
covering FY2019 to FY2028. Under the terms of the MOU, the United States pledged to provide—subject to congressional
appropriation—$38 billion in military aid ($33 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants plus $5 billion in missile
defense appropriations) to Israel

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

_______________

I know Biden supplied further aid and extra aid can stop.
But it would it take an act of Congress to eliminate the 10 year commitment. Not gonna happen.

People can have opinions, but the polls show a lack of understanding of how military aid to Israel works.

[PufPuf23]

41. Try reading the document you linked.

Aid Restrictions and Possible Violations

U.S. aid and arms sales to Israel, like those to other foreign recipients, are subject to U.S. law.
Some U.S. citizens and interest groups periodically call upon Congress to ensure that U.S.
military assistance to Israel complies with applicable U.S. laws and policies and with
international humanitarian law.

from page 21 followed by several pages of specifics.

[LeftInTX]

43. Yes, it takes congress to invalidate like I said, "Groups call upon Congress"

It would take an act of Congress. It's not gonna happen. The senate would filibuster. House is GOP.

[PufPuf23]

45. "There is no statutory requirement for the executive branch to notify Congress" page 32

Section 502B of the Foreign Assistance Act

Section 502B(a)(2) of the FAA (22 U.S.C. §2304(a)(2)) stipulates that, absent the exercise of
certain presidential waivers due to extraordinary circumstances, “no security assistance may be
provided to any country the government of which engages in a consistent pattern of gross
violations of internationally recognized human rights.”

158 For the purposes of Section 502B,
“security assistance” is defined broadly to include sales of defense articles or services, extensions
of credits, and guaranties of loans under the AECA, licenses for exports to foreign government
military or security forces, and certain categories of assistance authorized under the FAA. The
term “gross violations of internationally recognized human rights” is defined to include 1)
“torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment”; 2) “prolonged detention
without charges and trial”; 3) forced disappearance; and 4) “other flagrant denial of the right to
life, liberty, or the security of person.” Pursuant to this provision, the executive branch may make
a determination that a foreign government has engaged in “a consistent pattern of gross violations
of internationally recognized human rights” and is therefore ineligible for security assistance. As
a general matter, the executive branch appears to have rarely restricted assistance pursuant to this
provision. There is no statutory requirement for the executive branch to notify Congress when it
chooses to unilaterally invoke 502B.

from page 32

[PufPuf23]

48. Are you going to correct yourself or tell me I am wrong again?

What I post is directly from that link.

Excellent and informative link.

Executive branch can act independent of Congress, yet you say otherwise.

[DemocraticPatriot]

60. Well, thanks to the Republicans, Israel isn't getting extra aid

for the moment.

[GuppyGal]

44. I stand with our allies nt

[Takket]

51. Putting aside how people feel about the war..........

Do they NEED our weapons? I mean, Israel seems like a pretty well off country with a decent economy. Why can't they budget for weapons and buy them from a MIC supplier like everyone else does?

[Mosby]

63. They do, Israel's defense budget is 24 billion per year

3.8 billion comes from the US, which is entirely spent on US products. The dollar amount of sales recently is unknown, but the US administration has approved 100 or so purchases, without congressional approval.

Some of Israel's defensive systems like Arrow 3, Iron Dome and David's sling were developed in Israel but are co-produced with US defense contractors, so I think those sales are handled differently.

[David__77]

52. Stop the shipments now.

If for some legal reason there's trouble with doing so, then create as many slowdowns and roadblocks as possible, like Israel is doing with food and water for people in Gaza.

[TexasDem69]

55. A little context goes a long way

It seems like some folks are confused about what war and genocide look like. Go to this link for a refresher on the 6 MILLION Jews killed in the Holocaust. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/introduction-to-the-holocaust. In some countries the entire Jewish population was effectively eradicated. This didn’t happen in Germany alone but across Europe. 435,000 Jews in Hungary—half of all—were sent to the death camps in three short months between May and July 1944. Men, women and children rounded up, crammed in trains and transported across Europe then gassed. This is the exact same outcome that Hamas promotes.

[DemocraticPatriot]

62. Whatever Hamas "promotes", does not excuse Israeli actions NOW....

Hamas does not have the means to re-enact the Holocaust, so their 'intent' is of little consequence.


Israel, on the other hand, is enacting a Holocaust in the Gaza strip NOW.

There's your "context".

I am growing weary of pro-Israeli posters who invoke the Holocaust
to excuse another Holocaust...

[Mosby]

64. So you think the Israelis are like the Nazis?

I am growing weary of pro-Israeli posters who invoke the Holocaust
to excuse another Holocaust...

Care to expound on that?