Just a little lesson to ponder in this climate of religious hatred

[Jilly_in_VA]

There is an old tale where the rabbi was asked by one of his students “Why did God create atheists?”
After a long pause, the rabbi finally responded with a soft but sincere voice. “God created atheists” he said, “to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his actions are based on his sense of morality. Look at the kindness he bestows on others simply because he feels it to be right.
When someone reaches out to you for help. You should never say ‘I’ll pray that God will help you.’ Instead, for that moment, you should become an atheist – imagine there is no God who could help, and say ‘I will help you’.”

-courtesy of Marginal Mennonite Facebook group

[rickford66]

1. If fear of punishment or expectation of reward drives your actions towards others, you missed something there.

That story says a lot.

[soldierant]

9. Yes. It does

.I am a believer, and I believe that the whole point of doing good is to become a good person. And the point of becomeing a good berson is to be able tostand being in the presence of ultimatr goodness. For eternity.

I do not believe that there is so much as one MAGA "Chrostoan" who could bear being int the presence of unlitame good ness for ten minutes.

[edisdead]

10. Weird.

I believe i being a good person and being good towards other because it feels good. Now. Right now, to do so. It feels good to know that others are feeling good. And that if others have the same feeling the that strengthens the social contract between all of is.

[Raine]

13. Feeling good is the reward. nt

[edisdead]

18. yep what I said.

[Sky Jewels]

38. I believe in doing good because

that honors our evolution as social primates, specifically great apes. We need to cooperate to thrive and survive. This notion precedes Bronze Age tales by hundreds of thousands of years.

[raging moderate]

2. The New Testament Book of James says real religion IS helping people in need.

It says there is no good in just telling people in need that you will pray for them: Giving them what they need IS real faith, and prayer with no actions is dead faith. (James 2:14-18)

[surfered]

11. Exactly...

…many Christians today proclaim their faith, but it is a faith without works, which is meaningless.

[slightlv]

14. That's because they're taught since Sunday School

that by faith alone will you be saved - not works. No amount of good works will get you into heaven. You only get there if you believe the way they believe.

[ShazzieB]

19. Yes, that's exactly that I was taught, growing up Southern Baptist!

Word for word. As a child, it didn't occur to me to question it. But by the time I graduated high school, I had become quite uncomfortable with the whole "everyone who doesn’t believe exactly what I believe is going to be tortured in hell forever." It took me a while to get there, but my mind eventually reached the point where it rejected that whole concept. Now, I have a hard time understanding how anyone can believe that and actually be okay with it.

I'm still not an atheist, but to me that's an entirely separate issue.

[slightlv]

21. For me, it was the verse where Jesus

stated "My Father's house has many rooms." To me, that answered the question of faith, works, and whether or not you call God "God" "Allah" or "Goddess"... and for me, the narrow path that takes you there is thru works and your own sense of ethics and morality. If I get tossed this "woke" thing as a derogatory (as has happened to me more than once), I proudly state right back, "you're damned right! And I'm in excellent company. You might try asking Jesus, if you believe in Him."

[ShazzieB]

24. I like that!

[raging moderate]

33. Jesus said those who give the needy food, drink, clothing, shelter, and care will enter Heaven.

Matthew 25:40: "Whenever you did this for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it for me!" Your wonderful verse comes from John 14:2: "In my Father's house, there are many mansions."

[Think. Again.]

3. Beautiful, thank you...

...I believe that's the basis of the Humanist thought to be "Good Without God".

[brewens]

4. Years ago, a friend of mine said something like, "If I didn't believe, why wouldn't I go out and rape and kill?"

It's closely related to this post.

You should not want to do bad things regardless. Nothing that ever hurts anyone if you can help it. You shouldn't ever want to inflict terror and pain on anyone. I don't want to be hated or feared, I want to be liked. I got all that from good parents by example. We'll never run out of examples of people that failed to learn that from their religion.

Here's some confirmation bias for ya. I went looking for something to tell me atheists are more law abiding and found it. I admit I didn't search much harder.

It does not surprise me that they claim people that believe in a forgiving God are more likely to commit crimes. I always thought that too. Look at the Crusaders? They were promised absolution so they could commit horrific acts even sometimes against other Christians.

To turn it around on my buddy, if I believed I only need to go git me some JAYUSUS and be forgiven, why wouldn't I go out and rape and kill?

https://visual.ly/community/Infographics/lifestyle/religion-and-crime-there-correlation

[Silent3]

27. One take on that idea I really like...

"If the only reason you don't rape and kill and plunder is that you fear punishment from God, you aren't a moral person, you're merely a monster on a leash."

[calimary]

41. Ooooooooooh, that's a GOOD one!

"If the only reason you don't rape and kill and plunder is that you fear punishment from God, you aren't a moral person, you're merely a monster on a leash."

[NNadir]

5. I like that Rabbi. Thanks.

[GenThePerservering]

6. The line "You won't be saved by doing good works

you can only be saved if you believe in "The Lord Jesus Christ"" always seemed to me to be more of a get out of jail free card.

And a lot of Xians seem to think the same thing. It's like the old time scam of buying pardons.

[ancianita]

15. Now that yo put it that way, I see why this is called "general" discussion.

What I could say about this would take too long.

[Solomon]

7. This is the way I've always felt and its expressed perfectly. Couldn't have said it any better.

Hits the nail on the head. Perfectly expressed.

Thank you. This one is a keeper.

[bigmonk]

8. Who's the rabbi?

Surely, this story should have the name of rabbi? Is it in the Talmud?

[Jilly_in_VA]

12. Does it matter?

Why would it?

[Hekate]

20. It's a parable & doesn't really require names as such. It's a teaching.

[Beastly Boy]

22. It is usually attrubuted to Rabbi Moses Leib of Sassov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Leib_of_Sassov

He is one of the early Hassidic Rabbis of central Europe.

[3Hotdogs]

29. If I told you it was Bernie who works at the candy store near the entrance of the Williamsburg bridge,

would it matter? Bernie has a lot of good advice for people.

Yeah. I know, you're looking for a citation.

[kozar]

16. Im not a believer, but,

I'm the guy, that will go to Wallymart, walk from where I parked, see someone who just emptied their cart, and stop.And say"let me take your cart". It serves 3 purposes, 1, I have a cart, that doesn't have bad wheels. 2. That person doesn't have to leave the cart in an empty parking spot,cutz they may be a lazy person. And won't find the cart park.
3. I get to see the astonishment in the their eyes, how , I didnt go out of my way, make any extra effort, I just simply spoke, to another human being.
After all, aren't we all humans first?
Great post Jilly

[Permanut]

26. Had that happen the other day..

I don't know if that was you, Kozar, but it made my day.

[PatrickforB]

17. This is very nice. So nice, in fact, that I have bookmarked it. Thank you! n/t

[KPN]

30. Me too.

This is a great thread. Itgets to the core of everything.

[calimary]

42. Totally!

Happy to kick it. Maybe more than once!

[multigraincracker]

23. Picking the correct religion has turned

me away. I am a member and past President of a UU Church. It is a Progressive Secular Humanist org that accept all beliefs. We like to say “we can’t answer your question, but we can question your answers”.
I’ve always been a big fan of the study of comparative religions. When any religion acts in an authoritarian way, they’ve lost me. So I petted much pick and choose what I like from all of them.
All most all of them say, in some way, treat others as you would like to be treated. I buy that. I went to a talk by the Dahlia Lama. During the question and answer part, someone said all the Darmas and such are very complicated, can you make easier for me? He said it boils down to one thing Be Nice.
I also like a verse in of the Tao Te Ching “The Tao that is spoken of is not the eternal Tao”.
Anyway, it’s all very interesting. I also heard someone say “Religion is like a penis, I’m glad you have one, but if you wave it in my face, we have a problem.

[calimary]

43. OMG! Outstanding!!!

WOW, multigraincracker!!!

“Religion is like a penis, I’m glad you have one, but if you wave it in my face, we have a problem.”

There aren’t enough positive adjectives to describe, in full, how much I love this one!


Aw hell - I LOVE this whole thread!!!

[Earth-shine]

25. Exactly. My morality comes from societal mores and personal common sense.

Do unto others, ya know?

The beliefs of people are spread all over the spectrum, sometimes not even on a spectrum.

I don't care so much what people believe as long as there's love, kindness, and forgiveness in their hearts.

Years ago, as a confirmed atheist, I had a very significant relationship with an orthodox Jewish woman. We just accepted what the other believed as sincere and then got on with the business of loving each other.

[Skittles]

28. so tired of the idea that religion is needed to do good

I do good because it's the right thing to do, not because I expect some kind of reward in the end.

[KPN]

31. Awesome thread. Thanks Jilly!

[usedtobedemgurl]

32. Look up .....

NPR/This I believe/Penn Gillette. It is about his belief system and how you have to try to be nice the first time around, because this is it. It is smart and funny. Penn Gillette is a gem.

[Icanthinkformyself]

34. Nice sentiment

But, I don't believe that a Rabbi, or any other religious leader, would recommend acting like an atheist. More likely they would claim the atheist was overcome by 'god' when doing what many religious people would not, acting humanely to other humans. It's why they make excuses and rationalizations for their behavior.

[nuxvomica]

35. I think that we do good out of instinct

Most of myth and literature, since Gilgamesh at least, addresses the "hero's journey" in one way or another. I think there's an instinctive impulse at play here and that these writings are instructions for living a meaningful life by taking on the role of hero as part of the normal process of becoming an adult. We need such stories because the call to heroism can go unanswered. A key aspect of the hero's journey is that the hero takes on this non-transactional sacrifice reluctantly so we have to be encouraged to do so by a subconsciously influenced literary tradition. This is all because of a biological fact that human offspring need to be taken care of, without reward, for nearly two decades before they can care for themselves. So we are drawn to caring for the innocent and the powerless because of this impulse, and the benefit is to the survival of the species. When someone fails to answer that call, they become preoccupied with their own appetites, which never adequately satisfy the need for meaning.

[Sky Jewels]

36. So why did this god create the Holocaust?

I mean, if it creates humans to teach lessons, it must be omnipotent. So it caused or allowed the Holocaust.

I’m glad deities, wizards, ghosts and other supernatural beings don’t actually exist.

[Hotler]

37. You don't need religon or a church to be a nice person. nt

[calimary]

44. THIS!!!!!

[intrepidity]

39. I wonder how many religious sociopaths rein in their impulses

and whether that is the true purpose of religion: to provide guardrails to those few who otherwise would have none?

I think most "normal" people have an internal moral compass.

If I were tasked with solving the problem of controlling sociopaths, religion would be the first thing I'd invent. And part of the religion would be that you can't question it.

[Red Raider 85]

40. I don't have to "imagine" there are no gods.

I'm rather convinced they are as real as goblins, ghosts, pixies, werewolves and demons.

[calimary]

45. I love this whole thread!

Thanks so much, Jilly_in_VA!

You sure “earned your wings” today! But on second thought, the very fact that you cared enough to get this conversation started suggests you probably “earned your wings” a long time ago.

[twodogsbarking]

46. We are having hot dogs for dinner, on the grill. Thought that might be more interesting.