I just had a very loud discussion with my son. It was very disconcerting.

[flashman13]

According to him, the U.S. economy is terrible, on the verge of a major collapse. Under Trump things were great beyond belief (notice my Trumpian take). Full disclosure, he is working in a commodities related industry and is earning far more than he has ever made in his life. Demand for his companies products are down, prices are down and he is worried about layoffs. I tried to explain that that is the curse of commodities. When they are hot they are hot and when they are not they are not. It's all Joe Biden's fault. The true genius of right wing media is the ability to tie every individual's personal bad outcome to Biden and a promise that Trump will make things all more wonderful than anyone has ever seen before.

I quickly rattled off a dozen statistics showing the excellent condition of the economy. His comeback is, that's not true. I'm being lied to. I am a retired engineer and I think I know how to read and analyze numbers, but he thinks I'm too stupid to tell the difference between fact and fiction. In our town McDonalds, Dairy Queen and the local lumber yard are begging for help at $20 an hour. That's a fact. You all are familiar with the rest of the numbers and I won't go on.

Oh, and BTW, Trump is the peace candidate. WTF?

I do not understand why a person that I know to be of above average intelligence can be so easily led around by right wing nonsense. All I can do is shake my head and hope he comes to his senses sometime soon. I do my best to avoid these loud conversations but it always deteriorates into a shouting match.

[SharonClark]

1. I'm sorry you have to deal with a trumper son.

"The true genius of right wing media is the ability to tie every individual's personal bad outcome to Biden" is so true.

[pwb]

2. Politics and family rarely mix well.

My sisters and I are estranged forever. It is always them making the demands and finding differences so fuck them. Their loss.

[deurbano]

21. I'm estranged from my sister (my only sibling), too. After the 2016 election, she gave up any veneer of civility, and

seemed so excited and proud to be able to reveal what a reactionary asshole she always must have been. Even before that, she was the kind of loon who'd attend Rush Limbaugh's short-lived TV show... but she didn't seem so personally invested. (I always thought she was largely influenced by her husband's politics, but now she comes off as the more radical one.)

[MOMFUDSKI]

77. My sentiments exactly. People showed us

who they were with the MAGA cult. Dropped every last one. Not interested in being friends or family with such ignorant people.

[getagrip_already]

3. yeah, haven't you heard - biden started 2 wars....

That is an actual rw talking point.

Never mind that it was putin who invaded Ukraine and the US has no troops involved there.

Never mind Hamas/Iran started the war in Gaza and the US has no troops on the ground there.

But logic has nothing to do with it.

[BootinUp]

4. Give him a link to one of those list of Trump lies sites. nt

[Prof. Toru Tanaka]

39. He might brush those off as "fake news".

Trump and his supporters have built-in excuses for any information or circumstances they don’t like.

[BootinUp]

40. Yes...sigh. But it could be his last chance.

Other than that he needs to be convinced by some personal circumstances involving himself or someone he knows.

[Dan]

6. He is your son, you love it - that I understand

So, don't argue about statistics with him - just inquire if he agrees with the the morality aspect of things under the Trump/GOP plan?

Assassinating his political rivals?
Throwing millions of people out of the Country?
Marriage equality?
Eliminating Dept of Education, DOJ, ...
Consolidating all powers under the President...
Ignoring the Courts and laws you don't like...
Internment Camps for the homeless...and ...
Insurrection act on the first days of his presidency and putting troops in major cities (Blue)...
Assuming the powers of a dictator on day one?
Getting rid of a Free Press...
And question him about Germany, at the beginning of Hitler's rule.
Inquire is it okay to rape , steal, cheap ...
Does he have respect for woman? POC, the non-straight..
Should the nation only have respect for one religion?
and is he willing to die for that which he believes, cause if Trump wins - there is the chance of war.
And then, you will know what type of son you raised.

[blm]

7. Covid spending kept the economy going artificially. So it felt great

for those spending their stimulus checks, unemployment add-ons, and the PPP loans that were forgiven.

But, back in 2019 there were warnings about the economy tanking from Trump’s tax and economic policies.

Donald Trump Built a National Debt So Big (Even Before the Pandemic) That It’ll Weigh Down the Economy for Years
https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump

Even if the Fed cuts rates to zero, market bear David Rosenberg predicts a recession is less than 12 months away
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/22/recession-will-hit-the-us-within-12-months-david-rosenberg-warns.html

[GreenWave]

8. You could ask him what is Trump's platform?

(Obviously that is not good that he has none.)
Don't accept that border crap. Remind him Trump had 4 years to get something done and 2 with control.
Ask him if Trump is smarter than our best doctors and scientists.
Why is Trump so in love with Russia? GOP were vehemently anti-Russia for 70 years. Why did those folks immediately change from hate to tolerance? What was the reason?

ETC...

[CrispyQ]

12. Don't forget the tax cuts he got for himself & his rich friends, but ours expire in a few years.

Probably during a dem term so people like this kid will blame Biden.

[All Mixed Up]

9. Who did he vote for in 2020?

[Pisces]

10. My cousin is the same right now albeit she's not brilliant. She doesn't follow politics but has told me she

Is voting for Trump because she can’t afford her rent and groceries which she blames on Biden. She said she has never struggled as much under any other President for the basics and knows it was better under Trump. She doesn’t care about Covid, the stock market etc. She and her husband are blue collar workers and I have to think this is why people keep saying the economy is bad.

I think we are deluding ourselves that these people will understands facts and reason.

[Nasruddin]

38. There will be a lot of that

It's kind of like single-issue voting. We can hope there are a lot of people moving in the other direction that don't get reported on.
But see my other comment about main character syndrome. I wonder if the COVID stimulus checks had enough of an effect that
she doesn't remember what it was like before? It's certainly true that food is a lot more expensive than 5 years ago.

I recall in 2016 a woman wrote an article in a national level journal that she was voting for Trump because she was really angry how expensive Obamacare was and it needed to be fixed and made better for her. She was an immigrant I think - tech field. Curiously, the article was unfindable a few months later - link dead.

[cilla4progress]

11. Crosspost of interesting Atlantic article

about trumpers as nihilists.

Maybe sound familiar?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218717577

[Liberal In Texas]

13. I'm going to guess he gets his "news" from Fox or OAN or one of the other RW propaganda sites.

Maybe even TikTok. His pals and guys he hangs with are also commodities types and from what I've heard about it, it's worse than sitting at a poker table in Las Vegas. He and his pals have to blame their losses on somebody. Might as well be Democrats and President Biden. I can imagine that his attitude is reinforced by all of these things.

And that "loud discussion" is pretty normal talking with trumpers. They can't make a rational point or have a difference of opinion without t hem t ryiing t to shout you down.

Good luck. Some day he may reprogram himself.

[flashman13]

15. Your analysis is spot on. I think AM radio is a big part too.

And there is a vast sea of right wing blogger/screamers out there. It's a full court press.

[mike_c]

14. as a rule, I don't discuss politics with anyone but my wife...

...and DUers, although even here I'm pretty circumspect. Same with religion.

[richdj25]

16. If anything, those t-shirts

are pure comedic gold.

[babylonsister]

44. Gratuitously mean.

I have two brothers, both trumpers. One I haven't spoken to in years, don't discuss politics with the other. Neither are idiots.

[Abolishinist]

53. "It is disconcerting when you realized you've raised an idiot"

What a totally disgusting comment.

[yonder]

18. This comes to mind:

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair

Perhaps it applies in your son's case?

[CousinIT]

19. He sounds like my entire family. n/t

[mountain grammy]

20. I'm so sorry you have to deal with that..

I honestly don't know what I'd do if my sons turned on me, and that's exactly how I'd see it.
My daughter has many problems but at least that's not one of them.

[Johnny2X2X]

22. Economy is strong right now

Better than any year under Trump.

[Chicagogrl1]

24. Sorry you are going through this

The common denominator always seems to be money. Anyone w/ half a brain can tell the economy is good; restaurants are full, stores are full, planes are full. Unemployment rate is 3.7% which means there are more jobs than there are candidates to fill them. When presented with these truths, they deny them just like tRump. It is completely perplexing. Truth is no longer truth, facts are no longer facts. This is what he has done. It’s like he is their dog whistle & they can not be reached. They will even support him if he’s convicted. I guess all we can do is keep gently presenting the facts until they wake up. Hope your son comes around.

[Eliot Rosewater]

26. l am not surprised, not even a little, nor am I surprised that CNN has trump leading.

we are broken...

[orleans]

27. my girl is more left than me

(thank god!) and i consider myself pretty left

while i tend to view things with an emotional bent (such as vitriol or anger - lol) my kid sails through political disagreements calmly and rationally and then mops the floor with those who disagree. (she had a handful of very good friends who were republicans/conservatives like their parents. that was back when they were in 8th grade? 9th grade? i'd hear her talking george bush era politics with them and i was so proud of her! i used to tell her she should go into politics. she did not. not yet. )

sorry your son is a trump fan.

[SWBTATTReg]

28. So, the son in commodities himself traded against the market (they were wrong) and are losing/lost money,

and he's blaming Pres. Biden?

The labor market is hot, and I don't know how the son ever missed this detail, the help wanted ads are everywhere! No wonder the son lost money.

[ProudMNDemocrat]

29. I sm dorry you are hoing through this.

It is difficult when facts get in the way.

[JohnSJ]

30. Sorry but your son doesn't agree with every reputable financial analyst

or the actual economic numbers

I will hold my tongue because he is your son, and not say what I really think

[SupportSanity]

31. Hard to understand, but....

"I do not understand why a person that I know to be of above average intelligence can be so easily led around by right wing nonsense."

From the movie "Deja Vu"; Denzel Washington speaking to a group of ivy league scientists:

"Alright. I’ll tell you what. I’ll speak slow so those of you with PhD’s in the room can understand."

[Silent Type]

32. Honestly, it's difficult going from tens of millions of people are living paycheck to paycheck

to the economy is great for everyone. I’m reasonably satisfied and don’t blame anything on Biden, but that’s what we are up against.

It’s gonna be a fight over military too. trump will say there were no major military actions under his term. We’ll counter with it was trump’s mismanagement and policies that caused trump’s buddy to invade Ukraine, and he’ll try to blame October 7th on Biden. Hopefully, he won’t be successful, but guess how many youngsters will believe that crud.

Gonna be a tough 10 months.

[Aussie105]

33. Son fears for his job . . .

It is Joe's fault!

Trump promised (vaguely) . . .

Couple of questions:
Does Trump deliver what he promises?
How are the coal miners doing? They all got their jobs back?

Tell sonny boy there is no magic wand, and to disbelieve anyone who says he has one.
Real life isn't Harry Potter.

Son should write Trump a letter outlining his concerns, and ask for a guarantee he will keep his job if #45 gets voted back in.
He will feel better, if nothing else.

[Nasruddin]

34. main character syndrome

Some of this is the main character syndrome perhaps.
I see it working in me & also think it is quite common.

If things are going great for me, obviously I am very competent & master of the universe &c.
If things are NOT going great for me, obviously I am very competent but those other people or the president or the Bolsheviks or something are really messing things up, and should be disabled and punished.

I don't think this is narcissism exactly more like a built-in distortion of viewpoint.

[Aussie105]

36. We all do it.

Externalise our fears, and blame someone else. And expect them to answer with a fix.

Part of being an adult is to accept things as they are, and do your best despite difficult current or imagined circumstances.

It takes some people a long time to get to that point.

[viva la]

35. My son is also arguing that, but from a socialist angle!

LOL.

I remind myself these kids were fortunate enough not to grow up (as I did) with constant 7% inflation, miniscule minimum wage, unemployment rate over 12% in my state when I graduated from college. Oh, and my first mortgage-- a discounted 'first-time homebuyer rate!'- was 11.8%. Not to mention cancer was still usually a death sentence, and every kid got measles and chicken pox. I could go on... women getting fired when they got married or pregnant... black people in the south still dealing with "whites only" signs....

And, of course, phones wired to the wall!

I think there's always a tendency for young people to get gloomy. I was positively certain that Social Security would not be there for me, and here I am collecting $ every month. I thought we'd never be able to afford a new car or a house, and then we did.

Now I think the upside for young people now-- much higher wages than even a decade ago, a brilliant job market, more legal equality-- is there. But there's also a downside in the extreme housing prices (rent and own) and the pernicious student loan issue, where so many end up paying multiples of what they borrowed. And things are so frenetic and stressful these days.

But... well, it goes without saying that Trump would make it all much, much worse.
And my kid's chosen candidate is even older than Biden!

[Freethinker65]

37. Does this son have a wife or girlfriend?

[NBachers]

41. Bet on the wrong horses and came home broke. It's all Biden's fault. Sorry!

On edit – I just tapped the Google app on my phone, hit the microphone button and said “What is the unemployment rate in the United States right now?“ The reply I got was 3.70%.

I then hit the microphone on my Google app again and said “What is the rate of inflation in the United States right now?“ The answer I got was 3.1%

If he doesn’t wanna believe what comes out of your mouth, he’s welcome to disprove the statistics of people more authoritative than yourself or himself.

[JI7]

42. Is the industry he is in deal with environmental regulations ?

He could be opposed to regulations in his industry .

[Aussie105]

43. The very young get disheartened easily.

Life is meant to be a bed of roses, right?

At the first stumbling block you realise your life is sh#t and not worth living, right?

And it is everyone else's fault, right?

And they should do something about it, right?

And they don't - nobody cares, right?

Meanwhile, the very young will complain loudly, or sulk quietly. Or destroy something.
(Phone boxes were popular when they were around.)

But getting off the pity train and doing something positive yourself to make things better takes a very long time to appear as an option.

Maturity - time to bottle the maturity of a 50 year old and sell it to the very young.

If only!

[griffi94]

45. Putting on my therapist hat.

Yer son believes those things because he wants to believe them.
From yer post, it also seems that yer son has at least bit of a persecution complex and victimhood
mentality. Biden is going to cost him his job. He's the victim.

I'm no contact with two elderly parents who have gone full nazi. They believe what Trump says because they want it to be true.
My parents are white, successful, and wealthy, but they've also been very unhappy their entire lives.
No amount of wealth, success, or expensive toys will fill that void. Trump tells them, or at least implies, that their unhappiness
is someone else's fault. RW media has been telling them that for 30 years.

No amount of facts or logic or reality will pierce that bubble, so explaining it using facts is, sadly, probably a waste of time.

[John1956PA]

76. Putin's Troll farms are feeding web propaganda . . .

. . . which intensifies the persecution complex suffered by many young males who are INCELs. (This may not be the situation of the son mentioned in the OP, since few details of his personal life are offered.) I have seesn Putin's trolls warp the minds of INCELs by presenting propaganda which holds that liberal messaging in all aspects of society has stripped males of their masculine identity and ability to function in their naturally intended mode. The trolls masquerade as authors, philosophers, poets and other types of web influencers. Putin knows the psychology of the many facets of our country's demographics, and he has trolls working to brainwash each segment. Sadly, too many Americans in the targeted groups have drank the Kooaid.

[jmbar2]

46. Honestly, at a macro level things look good, but...

The stock market is being lifted by a handful of high flyer stocks in AI. It is due for a pretty sharp pullback - totally normal - but likely to fuel economic anxiety.

In addition, there are a LOT of layoffs going on, and they are not finding new jobs quickly. For many younger workers, it is their first experience going through mass layoffs, so their anxiety is understandable.

A good stock market does not necessarily lift all boats.

[Elessar Zappa]

73. But it's not just the stock market.

Wages have gone up in nearly every industry, at every level. We’re at full employment. We’re objectively doing much better than we’ve done in a long time.

[jmbar2]

78. Wages are not keeping up with rents in many jobs and areas. Particularly hits young folks.

[MOMFUDSKI]

47. It will be the young people with their heads

up their asses that will vote for a lousy life. We are fighting on 2 fronts.

[AkFemDem]

59. Nah, it'll mostly be middle aged people

And above who vote that way. Original posters son is not in the majority for his age group. The worry with young people is they won’t vote at all. The MAGA base is older though.

[Mariana]

70. Older people are much more likely to vote Republican than young people.

[wolfie001]

48. That's sad. Best of luck!!!

I'm sure many of his co-workers are riling each other up with the usual anti LGBTQ stuff. They become a stirred-up hive of bees looking to sting and hurt people. Heavens to Betsy, if anyone shows a little empathy and kindness. Scary times.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

49. "Our country is the laughing stock of the world."

I heard TFG spew that gem during one of his 90 minute wanna-be-dictator screeds. If that were true, how was Biden able to rally the NATO members together to help non-member Ukraine fight Russia? And why are they dreading the possibility of T***p regaining power?

[marble falls]

50. My youngest brother. His son has no MAGA at all about him. But Mikes nuts and just will not listen ...

... I'm about a month late calling him to meet for dinner. Love when the kid shows up, but my bro has a hair trigger temper. And it's a guess whether he will remember the agreement to not discuss politics or covid (the kid is vaxxed).

Love him, don't like him so much sometimes.

[Pepsidog]

51. Been there and done that. It's like talking to a rock. We now agree to disagree. 3 other kids solid Dems.

[KS Toronado]

52. There's a lot of college educated MAGAts out there.

Boggles the mind of us that have critical thinking skills or plain ole common sense.

[Sky Jewels]

57. Greed trumps all.

Pun intended.

[Jimbo S]

65. I've heard it said

the educated are better at rationalizing their beliefs.

[Mariana]

69. Intelligence and education doesn't make someone immune to propaganda.

[LoisB]

54. That is sad and I am sorry.

I guess the apple can fall far from the tree.

[jaxexpat]

55. Commodities people are jerks. It's part of their job description.

I have a son in law who is a LEO. With him, "It's just common sense that liberals are too stupid to do anything but lie and believe lies."

[Groundhawg]

56. I think we all know someone like this. Keep heart.

[Melon]

58. I am happy for my children to participate in our democracy

and vote. They also don’t see the world as I do, but I accept that. They are entitled to their opinion, but they need to excercise their rights.

[Ferrets are Cool]

60. It boggles the mind.

[Polybius]

61. The economy and crime can be tricky

States show good news, but the majority believe bad news.

[Pisces]

62. The government is suing to stop grocery merger because food prices are so high. People look at their

Bank balance and judge for themselves how the economy is going. High rent and high groceries tell them the economy is bad no matter what the news says. It doesn’t seem that boggling to me.

[mopinko]

63. commodities trades r fueled by chaos. what's good for traders is bad for pretty much everyone else.

whether it’s high prices or low. if traders r making money, someone is losing it. consumers r paying more or producers r making less. and instability makes everything harder.

my ex worked at cboe. used to always say- the only threat to our business model is a long stretch of peace and prosperity.

[Emile]

64. Sounds like he is in a cult. You need to deprogram him

before the election.

Some of them are flying flags that say Trump or Death.

[Mariana]

68. How exactly is the OP supposed to deprogram him?

[Tree Lady]

66. I feel your pain both of my kids

make good money, smart women, one is a CPA other top manager over 300 employees. Both going to vote republican and if I dare to mention women's rights or anything else in the news I am being negative, don't you have anything positive to say mom? Both started out voting dem and turned recently WTF!

I am very worried about this election.

[SharonClark]

71. Do your daughters say why they'll vote GQP?

[Tree Lady]

74. With both its economy issues

lower taxes.

[SharonClark]

75. Thanks for responding.

[Mariana]

67. Treat it as if he's in a cult.

These are essentially religious beliefs. You can't reason him out of them.

[LiberalFighter]

72. Trump's trade policies have cost thousands of U.S. manufacturing jobs

Trump’s trade policies have cost thousands of U.S. manufacturing jobs

“The Trump administration has taken credit for ‘reshoring’ manufacturing jobs, but the data show that isn’t true. Nearly 1,800 factories have disappeared under Trump between 2016 and 2018,” said Scott. “Additionally, the U.S. trade deficit in manufactured goods rose significantly between 2016 and 2019. In fact, the real U.S. trade deficit has increased in every year since 2016, reducing GDP growth by roughly 0.25% annually over the past three years. Compounded with the devastation left by the coronavirus pandemic, the blue collar manufacturing workers need serious help from policymakers.”

Overall, the U.S. has lost more than 91,000 manufacturing plants and nearly 5 million manufacturing jobs since 1997. The U.S. did gain roughly 500,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs from 2016 to 2019, but much of that was due to increased domestic purchasing spurred by tax cuts and heavy federal spending. Further, these gains are exactly on par with gains across the entire period from 2010 to 2019, during which 166,000 manufacturing jobs were added each year, on average.