seriously it is time to talk about peace in the ukraine.

[rampartc]

this will have to be negotiated sooner or later , why not sooner?

here is my proposal to begin negotiations

the 4 state solution -



1. immediate cease fire in place

2 look down at the new zelensky-putin line, eastern boundary of of ukraine

3. ukraine full nato membership-

4.those areas between the "zelput line" (or maybe just the "z line&quot and the former western boundary of russia to be divided appropriately between 2 or 3 statelets. each state self governing with assistance from goldman sax or the world bank.

5, the statelets to be totally disarmed and protected by a contingent of blue helmeted bangla deshis, or sherpa or canadians. maybe assigning canadians not such a good idea? can only try.

6. after a generation or 2 allow the statelets to join alliances and such



move we immediately and unanimously agree to proposal 1 , and adjoin until tomorrow to begin negotiations on proposal 2.

those children in the trenches, on both sides, could use a warm fire and a cup of potato squeezins on what must be a chilly night on the steppes.

[brush]

1. Crimea stays with Ukraine, right? Rewarding Russian with any Ukrainian territory is loathsome...

but all bets are off if Russia keeps Crimea.

[rampartc]

6. i was thinking of crimea as a statelet

but sure, that should be on the table.

[brush]

10. That's rewarding Russia IMO. Russia will still just take it over if it's on the table.

Russia is greedy enough. Land spanning 11 time zones and they still want more. No.

[rampartc]

12. they do have a massive nuclear arsenal

i'm not sure i like pushing a rattlesnake into a corner.

[brush]

16. So does the West. No need to cower. Putin is greedy but not crazy. He thought he could just...

take over Ukraine and nothing would happen. He thought wrong.

[Arthur_Frain]

63. I think this fear is just a bridge we have to cross.

Are we forever to kowtow to bullies with nukes? Judging from the paper tiger that much of russias arsenal has turned out to be, I wonder if we aren’t better off dealing with it now. Could our technologies give us the edge in neutralizing much of this threat? Is whoever follows Putin going to be a more reasonable leader? Do we give them time to fix their weakness and upgrade their arsenal? I don’t have the answer to these questions, but Russia needs to be publicly dropkicked, or they won’t stop.

Impossible for me to know what the right course of action will be without creditable intelligence which I simply don’t have.

[womanofthehills]

37. Russia will never give up Crimea

Dream on!

[brush]

39. Why propose ending the war then? Why should Ukraine give up Crimea, it's their territory...

and their right to fight for it.

Fuck what Russia will never give up. It's not theirs.

[former9thward]

53. Russia took Crimea 10 years ago.

The West did nothing then. It is too late now. The only issue is the eastern section of Ukraine which Russia now holds.

[brush]

54. Maybe it's too late to you, not to Ukraine though.Why not root for them to reclaim their territory?

What's with the pro-Russia posts?

[former9thward]

58. I don't view posting as cheer leading.

Do you think that is the purpose of DU? To cheer lead for a side without regard for actual facts? I believe the site is for information and discussion. YMMD.

[brush]

60. I don't know about you, but I root for democracies around the world and don't just resignedly yield...

to Putun/Russian bullying and invading other countries.

[former9thward]

61. Well, anonymous posters on the internet posting from the safety of their keyboards,

don't have much effect on Putin or Russian bullying or anything else where actual people are fighting.

[brush]

64. Donations to Joe Biden's campaign help Biden and Biden is determined to keep helping Ukraine...

while in office. Maybe you should consider it.

Root for democracy, please.

[Prairie Gates]

71. It's always interesting to me that those who claim themselves to be contrarians

are only ever contrarians from the right. They never take a contrarian position from farther left.

Similarly, those who claim that they are here to provide information and facts never seem to ever support a single Democratic position. Honestly, not one. Remarkable!

[brush]

73. I noticed that too. They never seem to realize that Putin's goal is Russia from Vladivostok to Belfast.

[pwb]

79. Good fight.

We know who is who here.

[Prairie Gates]

86. Yes, it comes clear fairly quickly, I have to say

I've always been amazed by this phenomenon, though. For as long as I've been on message boards, I've been amazed by these people who troll an "opponent" site for year - YEARS! - racking up thousands of posts. Who finds satisfaction in these things? Even if you "win" every argument, it's still very losery, if not deranged. You almost have to feel sorry for these folks.

[GrapesOfWrath]

80. I've noticed that too

Interesting

[getagrip_already]

2. Lidten closely. this is important.

It isn't up to you. It is up to Ukraine.

Get it?

It is THEIR decision. Not yours. Not trumps. It is their decision.

If Putin wants peace, he can withdraw his troops and go home.

Until Ukraine decides it is time to negotiate, it isn't. It is their blood. It is their country.

[Calculating]

8. It's our weapons and money

if we decide that this is going nowhere it's our right to try and call for Peace. Without western help Ukraine will lose to Russia, so we do have some power here.

[getagrip_already]

13. It is our common interest to support them - they are protecting us

Who do you think putin will come for next? And after that?

No. It stops here. As long as they need and want our support we are in our best interests to support them with every last bullet we have.

Because at some point, it will be our blood flowing.

Your argument is hollow tsnkie talk. Sorry, I don't buy a word of it. If they fall, Europe will be at risk, and then we will be.

[rampartc]

18. i'm on team ukraine

and completely agree that we are buying time with ukraine blood. i just want to slow down the bleeding.

[getagrip_already]

25. Then give them what they need.....

The uaf loses fewer troops and fewer civilians are injured when we give them weopon systems that work.

I can't say the same for Russian troops, but the uaf isn't sending them into battle either.

[rampartc]

14. as much responsibility as power.

[RubyRose]

83. It's in our best interests to limit this to Ukraine.

[rampartc]

11. of course. i'd hope they want peace as well .

unless you think that the russians are like covid, and will go away on their own in april.

only one guy in the world would surrender on behalf of the afghans without even inviting them to the talks. he is very likely to win, in which case ukraine's goose is cooked "in 24 hours"

[getagrip_already]

17. Say what?

Are you advocating for a trump victory?

[rampartc]

23. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!

but a trump victory is a big win for russia.. who knows how much aid we'll be sending putin. if he wins.

[brush]

20. trump is not likely to win. He's more likely to be in jail. Biden will beat his stinkin' ass again.

[rampartc]

28. you are an optimist

do you really think he needs to win an election?

there is a finite chance, somewhere very near 50/50 that trump47 will be sworn in next year.

no sane person desires that outcome, just as no one who has experienced war wishes it upon anyone else.

[brush]

44. You keep thinking your way and so will I. I feel the nation has had enough of trump and his...

big lie and chaos and insurrection and 91 felonies and 6 trials and will defeat him again in Nov.

But you carry on.

[EndlessWire]

46. If Trump gets convicted

there are plenty of voters who will not vote for him, even though they are Repubs. This will help us to win. More and more people are feeling like perhaps they don't want a Pres making policies from prison. Maybe they are tired of his posturing as a victim.

Keep your chin up. Eyes on the prize. Vote, vote, vote.

[pwb]

32. I feel pretty good about American weapons killing Russians

for a change. Russian weapons have been killing Americans since the Vietnam war. Payback feels good to this veteran. Fuck little man Putin and his Russia.

[EX500rider]

62. Actually since the Korean War

[Aristus]

3. A negotiated cease-fire is "Russia, throw down your weapons and take your asses back to Russia."

Ukraine does not surrender a single foot of land. Or Putin will re-arm and come back for the rest of it.

Every Russian soldier goes back to Russia, or every Russian soldier gets buried in Ukraine.

[EndlessWire]

48. Yeah, I agree

with no surrender unless it's from Putin.

This war isn't just about Ukraine. If Ukraine falls, the Balkans are scared that they will be next. They will probably be right, despite the fact that they belong to NATO. So, what difference does it make, fight them in Ukraine or get pulled in to fight in Europe?

Russia got away with firing on a couple of NATO countries, a couple of NATO associated ships. Those countries have shown remarkable restraint. Won't be so much next time around.

We should have given Ukraine planes, trains, and automobiles the second we realized what Russia is doing. "Special Military Operation" my ass. At any rate, Russia can't be allowed to control the Black Sea. This fact alone should motivate us to shove Putin back to his own borders. He just can't be allowed to control those sea lanes. It isn't just Europe. It's a lot of poor countries who still need help to make it.

And we can't let Trump win anything but a jail cell.

[stopdiggin]

4. when Ukraine is ready

As long as they're willing to continue bloodying Putin and Russian troops - they get as much support as is at my disposal.

[Nictuku]

5. So...

If Mexico attacked us (with the help of China and Russia supplying weapons), and (somehow?) we were unable to beat them back, and the world was telling us to negotiate.. Do you think for a minute that we would just let Mexico have California and Texas back?

Somehow I don't think that would be the sentiment of Americans.

This fight is not like the Viet Nam war. Ukraine has been invaded and forcibly bombed and had their land stolen from them by a violent neighbor. The Ukrainians are not calling for this. It really is up to them whether or not to negotiate away their land - or - to fight until they have no more fight. This is existential for them.

Russia won't stop at Ukraine. The Baltics (Estonia, Latvia), they realize this and are giving .25 of their GDP to Ukraine. They know what is next. If this is not stopped in Ukraine, it will only encourage Russia to keep doing what they are doing, because it will have worked.

This is my point of view (please don't read it as an attack on the OP)

Slava Ukraini!

[Calculating]

7. Agreed

The war is at a hard stalemate and people are just dying for nothing at this point. Time to end this pointless war as well as possible.

[getagrip_already]

19. Nope, not even remotely close to reality

Nor is it up to you.

It is only up to ukraine. We need to give them 200% of what they need to fight this war so it doesn't repeat itself over and over.

[qazplm135]

47. Here's where you are wrong

The entirety of your idea involves the idea that Russia will be done. They will say, yep, we agree, and stop.

If that were true, maybe your idea would have merit, but it's not.

Russia will simply rest, rearm, and try again for more territory in 10-15 years.
Or they will incite and mettle in Ukraine politics until a "revolution" happens and they can get a puppet in there.

Russia's never going to sign on to any part of Ukraine joining NATO.
Russia doesn't care about their own people so they don't care about people dying. They don't care about kids dying. From their perspective, they have more bodies, they have greater will to toss away those bodies, so they think they can outlast Ukraine.

Their idea of ceasefire would be Ukraine as a neutral state, no NATO. And when folks like you say, ok, fine that's not too bad, they chuckle and make plans for the next invasion.

This was is existential for Ukraine as a state. And Moldova. And Georgia. At a minimum. Because if Russia rewarded here, then it just tells them they can move on other small nations in their sphere because we don't have the guts.

[mcar]

9. No. Ukraine has the right to fight for its

own sovereignty. Us random folks on social media have no say in the matter.

Also, Russia is the aggressor here. Why would anyone cede them land?

[likesmountains 52]

15. Please, Ukraine..not the ukraine

[rampartc]

33. thanks, my bad

i don't guess you'd believe my spell checker threw that in?

[neverforget]

21. F@#k Russia. They started this war. They can go the f@#k back to Russia.

Putin will just rearm and look to his Baltic neighbors or back to Ukraine.

[Red Mountain]

22. Immediate cease fire along the current lines

Benefits Russia.

Solidifies their gains as a negotiating position.

Immediate cease fire will allow Russia to reequip and train more troops.......given their much larger population, very helpful.

Eh, comrade?

[rampartc]

34. wishing for peace on a cold winter night makes no one a komrade

if i get your meaning.

[Crunchy Frog]

55. It wouldn't be peace. If you had any idea of what russia is doing to the people under occupation

you would understand that it's not peace that you're advocating.

There was also an official statement from russia, just in the last couple of days that they will continue to fight, no matter what, until Ukraine ceases to exist.

https://x.com/fermerzpolissia/status/1747557600223232113?s=20

russia has signed all kinds of agreements with Ukraine over the decades, as well as international agreements like the United Nations Charter and the Geneva Conventions, and none of them are worth the paper they're written on in terms of what russia actually does.

What Ukraine needs is much larger quantities of much better weapons. To support anything else is to support the eventual complete destruction of Ukraine and all the violence and death that will accompany that destruction. And that still won't end the fighting because russia will forcibly conscript Ukrainian men to fight its further wars of conquest.

[Crunchy Frog]

56. For anyone who can't read the tweet, this is a translation of the text.

‘The existence of Ukraine is deadly dangerous for Ukrainians. And I don’t mean the current government, this banderite political regime. I am talking about any, absolutely any kind of Ukraine as a state. Why? Because the existence of an independent Ukrainian state on historically russian soil will be a constant reason for military action [on our part]’.

[Emile]

24. Russia needs to hand over Putin and the war will end.

It's that fucking simple.

[getagrip_already]

30. Sadly, putin is but one fool among many....

Though he may be the biggest one. It's entirely possible that whoever emerges as number 2 decides they need to double down on the war.

Russian politics make my head hurt. I'll leave it for others. I'll just enjoy the ballet when it plays.

[Autumn]

26. The time to talk peace in the Ukraine is when Ukraine says it's time to talk peace.

[Hekate]

27. Cut to the chase: "peace" means Russia is rewarded for invading another nation , reducing it to rubble,...

…kidnapping thousands of its children, raping and torturing everybody they could catch?

No one jumped in to protect Ukraine from this murderous assault. All Putin knows how to do is kill people — including his own army.

This is what you call peace? I don’t think so.

🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻

[Ocelot II]

29. It's over when Ukraine says it's over.

[3825-87867]

31. How about we just parcel out one third of your property

to your neighbor? And he gets to pick which third!

[Fla Dem]

35. Putin won't negotiate until after the election.

If Biden wins, he know Biden will continue to support Ukraine. He'll probably then negotiate with Zelenskyy to end the war.

If Trump wins, he knows Trump won't continue to support Ukraine allowing Putin to takeover Ukraine.

So I don't expect any major change until after the election.

[Fiendish Thingy]

36. Fuck that shit- no negotiations

There must be not a single Russian soldier on Ukrainian soil.

The solution is to give Ukraine all the weaponry they need and ask for, and enforce sanctions aggressively.

The war would end, and Putin would be removed from power in two years tops.

And then the war crimes trials could begin.

Ukraine is suffering, but Russia is losing.

You don’t surrender when you’re winning.

[former9thward]

57. The war is at a stalemate.

Russia is not losing or winning. Ukraine is certainly not winning. They are almost out of troops. They have 40-year-olds on the front lines.

[Fiendish Thingy]

67. Calling it a stalemate is tankie talk

It’s winter.

This is a war of attrition, not land seized, and Russia is losing more troops and equipment than Ukraine is.

Continuing to supply Ukraine with the equipment they need will enable them to outlast Russia, and they will win without any needless concessions.

[Mysterian]

78. Russia has failed to accomplish its main objectives

which were to conquer Ukraine and install a puppet government. Russia has already lost and finds itself in a war of attrition it never wanted.

[Kaleva]

84. Russia is recruiting from its prisons

and promising large bonuses to prospects in impoverished rural areas

[AlienAsparagus]

85. Meat Grinder

This is my main concern as well. We can provide all the bullets, missiles, rockets in the world to Ukraine.
But what happens when they run out of soldiers? They are already having issues with recruitment, as noted above they now have 40 year olds on the front lines. Soon, it'll be 50 year olds.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/15/world/europe/ukraine-military-recruitment.html

Russia in content to let this devolve into a meat grinder; a horrible war of attrition. Even with a mountain of supplies, who will be left to pull the triggers? Drive the tanks? Deliver fuel, food and munitions? NYT reported in August that Ukraine has lost 500,000 men so far - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html#:~:text=The%20total%20number%20of%20Ukrainian,tries%20to%20seize%20more%20territory.

[marble falls]

38. You lose me at "cease fire in place". Putin would like that for the jumping off point when he starts up again.

[Demsrule86]

40. No, you can't let Russia have Ukraine...it will empower Putin to continue trying to put

the old USSR back together.

[NickB79]

41. 40 replies, zero DU recs

Think about that.

[ret5hd]

59. 50+ replies, 700+ views, and still 0 recs.

[Tommy Carcetti]

42. Russia should not be given one square inch of Ukrainian territory.

Period.

End of discussion.

[NickB79]

43. Do you trust Putin even a little?

I don't. No one with half a brain should. He's a calculating murderer, and that's not even exaggerating a little bit.

If he tells you he won't invade again, Scout's honor, on his mother's grave, you better start buying weapons fast.

[greatauntoftriplets]

45. So you want to negotiate with a terrorist state?

Give Ukraine to Putin and he'll want Poland next. Then Germany and soon. Those are NATO members, so say hello to World War III.

[BootinUp]

50. +1

[BootinUp]

49. Giving anything to Putin will not stop him from his goal

of recreating a Russian Empire. You have not been paying attention.

[elleng]

51. Sure it is, but there are a few other things going on at the moment.

[Efilroft Sul]

52. No. Just no.

Saying anything more would get me banned from yet another site.

[LakeArenal]

65. I don't think our European allies would agree with your post.

Sounds very previous administration to me. Just my opinion.

As you are entitled to yours.

[NoRethugFriends]

66. There's no The Ukraine, there's Ukraine, and

you might want to check out how this worked out for Neville Chamberlain

[Laura PourMeADrink]

68. Hmmmm

At least 10,000 civilians, including more than 560 children, have been killed and over 18,500 have been injured since Russia launched its a full-scale armed attack against Ukraine on 24 February 2022, the United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU) said today.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

69. Wow!!!!

68 replies so far and only 1 Recommend, think that says something about your proposal?

[Kennah]

70. I say not one inch

Putin will be empowered by a negotiated settlement and Xi will feel empowered to act

[Coventina]

72. I can't believe this shit is on DU

[Voltaire2]

74. Ukraine is not going to accept partition.

Nor should they. Their best option is, quite unfortunately for them, to continue the war of attrition, the bloody stalemate reminiscent of WWI, and hope that Ukraine can survive longer than Putin’s regime. It is not a given that they will succeed.

[Jose Garcia]

75. Any peace deal at time would result in Russia gaining

territory from the before the war, which is essentially a reward for thieir evil behavior.

[Model35mech]

76. Yes, Putinists would believe aggressive territorial seizure works

And we'll be looking at just a few years as Russia re-arms before it's several of the Baltic states, Moldova, and possibly Poland

This re-empirialist move could also be claimed by many countries. Little Lithuania could even claim much of western Russia, because back around 1610 that territory was occuppied by them in the Polish-Russian war.

[bif]

77. Isn't it time you started calling it "Ukraine?"

Instead of "the ukraine?" JHC!

[Happy Hoosier]

81. So much WTF

Russia cannot be permitted to take territory by force.

Not to mention, Russia won’t accept Ukraine joining NATO, because if they are permitted to profit by their invasion, they will rebuild and come back to finish the rest in a few years.

[rso]

82. TSO

Only if Russia withdraws to their internationally recognized borders.

[WarGamer]

87. Noam Chomsky has an opinion

"Washington's position now is to fight to the last Ukrainian," he said. "Not my words, I'm quoting one of the most astute and respected members of the diplomatic service, former ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Chas Freeman.

"He has described in some detail US strategy, and in his words, it's fight to the last Ukraine but don't have a negotiated settlement. Don't offer a way out — that's US policy."