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rgbecker

(4,834 posts)
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 10:14 AM Dec 2023

Israel vs. Hamas by the numbers.

Herzog last night on PBS Newshour said they had killed 7000 Hamas terrorists.

21,000 (14,000 Women and children) have died in Gaza so far.

Herzog says there are 30,000 Hamas terrorists to go.

I guess we should prepare to learn of 60,000 more women and children being killed in Gaza before Israel is satisfied it has achieved revenge and it's victory of defending Israel.

42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Israel vs. Hamas by the numbers. (Original Post) rgbecker Dec 2023 OP
Independent sources are unable to confirm how many Hamas fighters have been killed. Lonestarblue Dec 2023 #1
"indigenous people off land they and their ancestors had lived on for thousands of years to give that land to other" lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #2
Centuries good enough for you? Eko Dec 2023 #6
they didn't just "live in the area" lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #8
Seems like you are doing the exact same thing. Eko Dec 2023 #10
no.. I am not. lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #12
No, the Bible is a very poor source for history. Eko Dec 2023 #13
and I have read scholarly works that demonstrate lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #14
You didn't answer my question. Eko Dec 2023 #15
Palestinians? lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #17
This was cool. Eko Dec 2023 #19
There is this as well. Eko Dec 2023 #16
however, genetics only account for the who beget who lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #18
That in no way changes that they were there for a long long time. Eko Dec 2023 #20
and that depends on who "they" are or consider themselves to be. lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #22
I showed you this. Eko Dec 2023 #23
Here is more. Eko Dec 2023 #24
And more. Eko Dec 2023 #25
My Mom was a Christian. Eko Dec 2023 #21
I do not belong to any religion lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #33
? Eko Dec 2023 #34
johnny come lately was a relative term lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #38
It is a no win for both sides under the current prevalent thoughts. Eko Dec 2023 #37
I have suggested nearly the same thing... but it should not be us lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #39
That's not bad. Eko Dec 2023 #40
I don't want to be a target of assassination lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #41
If only we could be the negotiators. Eko Dec 2023 #42
Actually, both lived in this area at the same time and were collectively called Canaanites. Lunabell Dec 2023 #29
The PLO was offered a two state solution years ago lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #32
I would. Lunabell Dec 2023 #35
Jews were the occupants of the land before Islam was a religion. AZLD4Candidate Dec 2023 #3
I didnt know Palestinian was a religion. Eko Dec 2023 #4
I think that's why they said islam? edisdead Dec 2023 #27
Are we talking about the Islamic religion or Eko Dec 2023 #28
Dunno edisdead Dec 2023 #30
Original poster they were replying to did not mention Islam at all. Eko Dec 2023 #31
Native Americans lived on the land that currently SocialDemocrat61 Dec 2023 #5
My mother's Mohawk. Yes, I'm all for that. AZLD4Candidate Dec 2023 #7
Well at least you're consistent SocialDemocrat61 Dec 2023 #9
mother was half blood Cherokee, father was 1/4th Blackfoot, with English, Dutch, and Irish.so lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #11
Weird edisdead Dec 2023 #26
I do not rely on anyone's casualty numbers. lapfog_1 Dec 2023 #36

Lonestarblue

(10,101 posts)
1. Independent sources are unable to confirm how many Hamas fighters have been killed.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 10:32 AM
Dec 2023

I doubt that the IDF has killed 7,000 because they hide in the tunnels. Several reputable news organizations have reported that the total number of Hamas fighters was only 30,000 to start. I think it’s safe to posit that the Hamas leaders are either no longer in Gaza or in a place where they can escape easily. They know, as does the world, that the IDF has a larger fighting force and US armaments to turn all of Gaza into dust, which seems to be Israel’s intent.

The very premise of the 1900s Zionists and UK leaders that you could force an indigenous people off land they and their ancestors had lived on for thousands of years to give that land to other people without any reprisals was a callous and inhumane action toward the Palestinians. Ben Gurion openly approved of ethnic cleansing, which is nothing less than murdering Palestinians to take their lands. And 75 years later, they are still doing the same. If Israel wants peace, they need to recognize the rights of the indigenous people, which they refuse to do.

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
2. "indigenous people off land they and their ancestors had lived on for thousands of years to give that land to other"
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 02:54 PM
Dec 2023

you really need to study a little history.

You understand that Jews lived in this area (and controlled it for the most part) for those thousands of years, right? Not the Johnny come lately occupiers that call themselves "Palestinians". Even the word Palestine is the ROMAN word for the area when it was conquered by the Roman Empire... and who did they leave in charge for day to day administration... the Jews. The Muslim religions was still centuries away from being founded. So... who are the illegal colonizers?

Do we only look at 100 years of history or 1000 or 10,000?

BTW, my ancestors, some of them, have lived in North America for those thousands of years... why don't all you "white people" ( and the Spanish ) go back to Europe.

Look up the term Diaspora.

Eko

(7,369 posts)
6. Centuries good enough for you?
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 05:46 PM
Dec 2023
The Arab population is descended from Arabs who lived in the area during the mandate period and, in most cases, for centuries before that time. Encyclopaedia Britannica

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
8. they didn't just "live in the area"
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 06:00 PM
Dec 2023

they killed and slaughtered the Jews (and the Christians). The Christians, being organized in the West after colonizing the fuck our of the druids that lived in far western Europe before them, and before the Romans... actually organized armies to go "reclaim the holy lands". Perhaps you have heard of it...

You can't pick an arbitrary point in history and say "everyone that is here are now NOT colonists and anyone that comes after are, by definition, colonists".

And you can't pick and choose that point and change it for this bit of land or that bit of land. if we only went back a few centuries, all the whites and Hispanics that live in either North or South American need to leave and either die or go back to Europe. I don't see anyone calling for that to happen.

So, no, in fact, centuries are not long enough.

But, in point of fact, the current Palestinians have been offered a state of their own... and they rejected it. They continue to oppose a two state solution, even one with shared control over Jerusalem. To be fair, the current Israeli government also rejects the two state solution.

Just out of curiosity, if you were to give all of Israel to the Palestinians, where would you want the people that live in Israel to go? Do you have a place in mind or are you advocating genocide? If the go someplace, would they be colonizers of the place you have picked for them... Or do you want them to go to Greenland or Antarctica?

Eko

(7,369 posts)
10. Seems like you are doing the exact same thing.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 06:13 PM
Dec 2023
You can't pick an arbitrary point in history and say "everyone that is here are now NOT colonists and anyone that comes after are, by definition, colonists"

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
12. no.. I am not.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 06:30 PM
Dec 2023

If you think there is history in the bible... then the Israelites escaped slavery from Egypt and settled in an unoccupied bit of land call Canaan. Or the "promised land".

But that was 4000 years ago.

Tell me who lived in this bit of land before Israel (hint, it was NOT the Arabs or Palestinians) and I would be all for making some sort of restitution for Jewish people taking their lands.

And even though my ancestors lived in what is now Georgia and Florida for centuries, possibly as many as a thousand years or more, I am pretty sure someone lived there before the Cherokees. possibly the mound builders.

Everyone is a colonist, everyone lived someplace else. Maybe some people did live in what is now Israel before the Jews arrived and declared it the promised land. I don't know. What I do know is that Jews have as much right to the land they call Israel now as anyone else, perhaps more right because of what was done to them by the places they escaped to AFTER they Arabs forced them to leave centuries ago.

Eko

(7,369 posts)
13. No, the Bible is a very poor source for history.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 06:35 PM
Dec 2023

When did the people who are now called Palestinians get there and where did they come from?
Here is some histiory.
Over the centuries, Jews, Muslims and Christians and followers of other religions have all claimed special connections to the region. The Hebrew Bible contains narratives of ancient Israelites' presence in the land, including the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, established by King David and his descendants around 1000 B.C. Those kingdoms' rivals included other Canaanite groups like the Philistines, whose territory encompassed the ancient city of Gaza. https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
14. and I have read scholarly works that demonstrate
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 06:55 PM
Dec 2023

the Philistines are not the genetic ancestors of today's Palestinians.

And, how did the Israelites get to the land of Israel and Judah? Before there was a King David.

Did they all just appear one day?

My point is... shit happens. Time to make the best future for yourselves that you can... look forward and not backward. Make peace with your enemies... and you might find you have a lot in common. I do not feel any hatred of totally white people, even though my parents suffered from some discrimination because of my mother's ancestry.

The people who carried out October 7 must be arrested and brought to justice. No matter how oppressed you feel, you cannot murder unarmed civilians ( including children and babies ) with knives, guns, and fire just because you feel anger at some group over what was done decades before you were born.

We wouldn't allow the terrorists to get away with that here. In fact we didn't. And we killed a lot more innocent civilians in a war that I didn't support as a result of a terrorist attack. We didn't end the terrorists, but we certainly killed a lot of them too.

Eko

(7,369 posts)
15. You didn't answer my question.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 07:00 PM
Dec 2023

If you are sure they weren't there before then where did they come from? When was this migration?

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
17. Palestinians?
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 07:31 PM
Dec 2023

There was one source that claims they are the descendants of the "Sea People"... a group of raiders that caused issues for the end of the Egyptian dynasties ( I think before the Greeks and Cleopatra ) and who may be related to Carthage. But there is no proof of that. That theory goes on to claim that the "Sea People" are likely from Cypress and thus have both Greek and Turkish ancestry, along with Iranian ancestry from the Persian Empire.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about the jews leaving Israel.

In terms of the Hebrew Bible, the term "Exile" denotes the fate of the Israelites who were taken into exile from the Kingdom of Israel during the 8th century BCE, and the Judahites from the Kingdom of Judah who were taken into exile during the 6th century BCE. While in exile, the Judahites became known as "Jews" (יְהוּדִים, or Yehudim), "Mordecai the Jew" from the Book of Esther being the first biblical mention of the term.

The first exile was the Assyrian exile, the expulsion from the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) begun by Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria in 733 BCE. This process was completed by Sargon II with the destruction of the kingdom in 722 BCE, concluding a three-year siege of Samaria begun by Shalmaneser V. The next experience of exile was the Babylonian captivity, in which portions of the population of the Kingdom of Judah were deported in 597 BCE and again in 586 BCE by the Neo-Babylonian Empire under the rule of Nebuchadnezzar II.

---

Here is what is written about Palestinians

The origin of the Palestinians, an ethnonational group residing in the Southern Levant, has been the focus of studies in history, linguistics and genetics, as well as nationalistic ideology. The Palestinian population, despite being predominantly Arab and Muslim, is not a homogeneous entity, and there is diversity within the population in terms of religious, linguistic, and cultural practices.[1][2][3]

The demographic history of Palestine is complex and has been shaped by various historical events and migrations. Throughout history, the region has been subject to the influence and control of various imperial powers, leading to political, social, and economic changes that have affected the demographic composition of the region. Wars, revolts and religious developments have also played a significant demographic role in encouraging immigration, emigration and conversion. Between the 4th and 5th century, the region had become a Christian majority and would remain so until 11th century, however, with the Muslim conquest of the Byzantine Levant in the 7th century, the region gradually began to be Arabized and Islamized as a result of local conversion and acculturation combined with Muslim settlement.[4] This ultimately led to the creation of an Arab Muslim population, which, despite being considerably smaller than the area's population in late antiquity, would go on to become the region's main religious group beginning in the Middle Ages and lasting until the 20th century.

Many Palestinian villagers claim ancestral ties to Arab tribes that settled in Palestine during or after the Arab conquest,[5] while others trace their roots to Turkish, North African, Kurdish, Egyptian, and Turkman origins. Some claim Jewish[6] or Samaritan[7][8] ancestry based on oral traditions. Genetic studies reveal that modern Palestinians share genetic continuity with Bronze Age Levantine populations and exhibit similarity with both contemporary Jewish and Arab-speaking Levantine groups.

Eko

(7,369 posts)
19. This was cool.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 07:37 PM
Dec 2023

According to historical records part, or perhaps the ma-
jority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended
from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who
had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh
century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981).
These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the
core population that had lived in the area for several cen-
turies, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992). On
the other hand, the ancestors of the great majority of pre-
sent-day Jews lived outside this region for almost two
millennia. Thus, our findings are in good agreement with
historical evidence and suggest genetic continuity in both
populations despite their long separation and the wide ge-
ographic dispersal of Jews.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf

Eko

(7,369 posts)
16. There is this as well.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 07:05 PM
Dec 2023
Genetic studies reveal that modern Palestinians share genetic continuity with Bronze Age Levantine populations and exhibit similarity with both contemporary Jewish and Arab-speaking Levantine groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
18. however, genetics only account for the who beget who
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 07:35 PM
Dec 2023

and not when they considered themselves a different ethnic group.

I think that started after they converted to Islam as the page you cite, which I included more fully, also states.

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
22. and that depends on who "they" are or consider themselves to be.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 08:02 PM
Dec 2023

"Many Palestinian villagers claim ancestral ties to Arab tribes that settled in Palestine during or after the Arab conquest"

so the Palestinians, if you ask them, consider themselves to be descendants of the Arab conquest. I.E. after the 6th century CE. Long after the Jewish people established the kingdom of Israel ( King David and all that ) which was 1000 years before the Arab conquest.

In any event, after 1946, the state of Israel was established because

a) the rest of the world, while horrified at the holocaust, did NOT want the Jews in their country.

and

b) It was believed the only way Jews could live and be free was if they lived in a majority Jewish state... so that the power the state would not discriminate against them because of their religion.

like it or not, that is the history.

Of course, it would have been much better if they ( the British that controlled the region after WW1 and WW2 ) had gone to the Palestinian people and said "How much do you want for your land?" and paid them whatever was demanded. Instead, as has been the practice over the thousands of years in that land, the British had no thought of paying Palestinians for the "worthless desert" and left as soon as was expedient having "done their duty". The UN concurred (again without the consent of the Palestinians ).

Now we are almost 80 years past that time and how many wars and skirmishes? How many terrorist attacks?

And every time there is a war the Arabs have lost ( yes because the USA and others help Israel with money and military hardware, but also because Israel, up until now, has been very smart in their war efforts ). Now almost all of the Arab nations recognize Israel right to exist, and while sympathetic to the Palestinians, not one surrounding nation has offered the Palestinians sanctuary... even while Gaza is being bombed. It is almost as if the Palestinians are now the Jews of the Muslim world... like the way the Christian nations of the west treated the Jews when they were fleeing the holocaust.

Eko

(7,369 posts)
23. I showed you this.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 08:08 PM
Dec 2023

Genetic studies reveal that modern Palestinians share genetic continuity with Bronze Age Levantine populations and exhibit similarity with both contemporary Jewish and Arab-speaking Levantine groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians.

That is what genetics says.

Eko

(7,369 posts)
24. Here is more.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 08:14 PM
Dec 2023

Besides Southern European groups, the closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish populations are the Palestinians, Bedouins, and Druze. The observed differentiation of these groups reflects their histories of within-group endogamy.39 Yet, their genetic proximity to one another and to European and Syrian Jews suggests a shared genetic history of related Middle Eastern and non-Semitic Mediterranean ancestors who chose different religious and tribal affiliations. These observations are supported by the significant overlap of Y chromosomal haplogroups between Israeli and Palestinian Arabs with Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jewish populations that has been described previously.37 Likewise, a study comparing 20 microsatellite markers in Israeli Jewish, Palestinian, and Druze populations demonstrated the proximity of these two non-Jewish populations to Ashkenazi and Iraqi Jews.40
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3032072/

Eko

(7,369 posts)
25. And more.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 08:17 PM
Dec 2023

Who came first?

Both Israeli and Palestinian politicians claim the region of Israel and the Palestinian territories is the ancestral home of their people, and maintain that the other group was a late arrival. “We are the Canaanites,” asserted Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas last year. “This land is for its people…who were here 5,000 years ago.” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, meanwhile, said recently that the ancestors of modern Palestinians “came from the Arabian peninsula to the Land of Israel thousands of years” after the Israelites.

The new study suggests that despite tumultuous changes in the area since the Bronze Age, “the present-day inhabitants of the region are, to a large extent, descended from its ancient residents,” concludes Schwartz—although Carmel adds that there are hints of later demographic shifts.

“One could analyze ‘Canaanite’ as opposed to ‘Israelite’ individuals,” adds archaeologist Mary Ellen Buck, who wrote a book on the Canaanites. “The Bible claims that these are distinct and mutually antagonistic groups, yet there's reason to believe that they were very closely related.”

https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/history/2020/05/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews

Eko

(7,369 posts)
21. My Mom was a Christian.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 07:42 PM
Dec 2023

I am not. Does that mean that I no longer come from where I did before? That my ancestors are no longer my ancestors?

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
33. I do not belong to any religion
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 10:14 PM
Dec 2023

but the current Palestinians... the ones committing atrocities in Israel, are Islamic first and foremost.

I am not denying that they have the same DNA as some other groups in the region. DNA is spread around. I doubt there are ANY pure DNA bloodlines going back thousand of years, where every person in the ancestry was born, mostly lived, and probably died in a piece of land. Possibly some Native Americans... but in the middle east? in the "crossroads of civilizations"? Impossible. you could pick a random person in the middle east, analyze their DNA, and find ancestors from Africa ( Egypt for sure ), Greek, Turkey, Arabs, Persians, and likely Mongolian ( they at one time had the largest empire the planet has ever seen, far bigger than Roman or British ).

So Jews are not colonizers. Good news.

Now, how does one stop this current war and settle it so that Palestinians and Jews can live in N states (1,2,3 whatever it takes). How does each state respect the others and how do they keep from stealing land or killing each other. Leaving behind the issue of colonization and who's land was it whenever, which has little to do with what is happening now... and is only brought up when people HERE in the USA and EU want to excuse the atrocity of Oct 7, 2023 and blame Israel for the resulting horrific bombing campaign.

Israel is losing the propaganda war. It is doing exactly what Hamas wanted.

I saw one idiot TV commentator asking "the tunnels under Gaza, why were they built if Hamas was not going to use them to attack Israel?"

I wanted to scream at her "Because they were needed not for the attack, but after when they KNEW the IDF would respond by bombing... where do you hide 10,000 fighters or 30,000 fighters when the opposition bombs you...you hide deep underground. Leaving 2 million people on the surface to suffer the bombs... just so you can send the counts and the pictures to the world that is horrified by pictures of dead women and children ( men always seem to get the short shrift in the sympathy department ). Hamas has stated they need thousands of civilian casualties... not of Jews in Israel but of Palestinians in Gaza. And Israel fell into the trap."

But Israel couldn't do nothing. And sending in 100,000 ground troops to find and kill Hamas in the tunnels, while better optics, would likely result in 10s of thousands of dead IDF soldiers too.

It is a no win situation for Israel.

On the other hand, I think Hamas did not expect the totality of the strikes by the IDF... and I think they thought the Arab world, especially Hezbollah, would join the fight.

It is a no win for both sides. Israel will not commit Genocide (by the actual definition). I don't think Hamas will get the wider war they seek. At most they will get a delay of the Saudi's in recognizing Israel.

Eko

(7,369 posts)
34. ?
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 10:24 PM
Dec 2023
I am not denying that they have the same DNA as some other groups in the region. DNA is spread around. I doubt there are ANY pure DNA bloodlines going back thousand of years, where every person in the ancestry was born, mostly lived, and probably died in a piece of land.
They have the same DNA as most people in the region. They also have the same DNA from ancient people that lived there and ancient people that emigrated there in even more ancient times. This proves that they have been there for a very, very, very long time. We can talk about anything else you want to but your claim that they were "Johnny come lately occupiers" is just not true.

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
38. johnny come lately was a relative term
Fri Dec 29, 2023, 12:37 AM
Dec 2023

As I have copied here in previous threads...

Many Palestinian villagers claim ancestral ties to Arab tribes that settled in Palestine during or after the Arab conquest

Which means, despite any DNA, when you ask the average Palestinian, they believe they arrived in and founded "Palestine" after the Arab conquest in 7th century CE.

but none of this matters... the Jews were there many thousands of years ago. Whether that number of 2000 or 4000... doesn't matter. And the Palestinians have been there either 1400 years or 4000 years by DNA.. this also doesn't matter. What matters is the land now belongs to the Jews in Israel. You don't like it... too bad. I don't like that my great great grandfather died on the trail of tears either.

But I am not going to launch rockets at the crackers that occupy those lands in south georgia.

The Palestinians should follow Gandhi. Peaceful protest and negotiate for more land, for better land. Co-exist side by side with Israel... but killing and raping is not the way to get what they want.

It's not worth it.

You can tie yourself up over past sins of people that oppressed you.

Or you can move on.

Eko

(7,369 posts)
37. It is a no win for both sides under the current prevalent thoughts.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 11:13 PM
Dec 2023

I personally think the Arabs got the by far worse end of a deal. Western civilization gave less a shit about them they they did even the Jewish population so no one cared if they got the raw end of the deal. They had a majority of the population and a majority of the land and were given a minority of the land in the deal. I dont see how anyone would be happy with that at all. With hindsight they should have just taken the deal but I can understand not doing it and starting a war over it. Later proposals were even more unfavorable and for the major Arab powers it just became a land grab for them and not justice for the people living there so they were quick to abandon them when it was more convenient and use them to stoke tensions against Israel. Pretty much no government out there really gives a shit about them and hasn't for a long time. Of course, this in no way excuses their absolutely atrocious behavior recently but a people who feel they are fighting for their freedom will do a lot and sometimes go way overboard and commit atrocious acts. As of right now they are stuck with a government that promises them much but fails to deliver them more than just revenge and getting people out of jail while a lot of their civilians are dying. I think offering them an alternative would be the best thing by having a major power take over, one that can take Hamas off their pedestal and show a path toward freedom while improving their lives. I think it should be us as we have Palestinians in high places in our government and actually have the ability to do so. Unfortunately the politics in our country at this time would not allow it. The UN? Without the backing of the US I don't think they would have much of a chance. So its just going to be a shitshow for a while. After a bit though the Arab world is not going to stand for this if things keep going as they are, they are already creating problems for the world over it by attacking shipping and I think its going to get much worse. If things dont change I believe we will see terror attacks in Israel as well as the world powers that support them even if and maybe especially if Israel manages to wipe out Hamas and take over Gaza. What do I know though? Hopefully I am wrong.

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
39. I have suggested nearly the same thing... but it should not be us
Fri Dec 29, 2023, 12:49 AM
Dec 2023

or the UN.

It should be a coalition of Arab (Sunni) armies. Egypt, Jordan, possibly Saudi Arabia (but I think the princes want to fly the fighter jets and not get their hands dirty and actually risk their lives).

Turn Gaza over the Arab League (what was called that after WW1). And possibly the West bank. Return the hostages. Then demand talks sponsored by US and, idk EU... China... where we collectively pressure Israel to give some land back in return for all identified Hamas leaders for trial by Israel. In return for the land and for recognizing Israel, Israel must open it's borders to Palestinians to find work and to travel to other countries. Palestinians must assure that they will never again mount an attack on Israel after the border of Gaza and of the West Bank is modified to give Palestinians more land. Israel will hate that. But this is the way to peace ( I think, but what do I know ).

Eko

(7,369 posts)
40. That's not bad.
Fri Dec 29, 2023, 12:58 AM
Dec 2023

I'd say it's a pretty good counter offer. I would say that having Palestinians assuring they will never attack Israel is a bit too much. One must always give a people the right to defend themselves. Might as well as say Israel can never attack Gaza. Its just a bit too much. That being said I would vote for you and I to take over negotiations to decide this lol. Adding it should not be trial by Israel but by the UN or the US or another country that can be seen to be impartial.

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
41. I don't want to be a target of assassination
Fri Dec 29, 2023, 01:14 AM
Dec 2023

which would be the case from both sides. Even if we were to strike a deal that is fair to both sides.

If either is attacked by a military, of course they can defend themselves.

What I am suggesting is a non-aggression pact. And should someone not sponsored by a government break the peace, that person should be treated as a terrorist by both Palestine and Israel, no matter if they are a fanatical Israeli settler or a aggrieved Palestinian who's grandfathers orchard is now in Israel.


BTW, I forgot one more thing. Any Palestinian that can show that their family had land in what is now the new Israel... should be compensated at fair market value, minus any improvements made since the land was confiscated by Israel.

much like reparations for African Americans here, it won't undo the past... but it will make it more palatable.

Eko

(7,369 posts)
42. If only we could be the negotiators.
Fri Dec 29, 2023, 01:19 AM
Dec 2023

I feel like we have both come at this in a honest and true way and I appreciate it immensely. I don't say this much and only to people that I respect and that is a hard thing to come across on the net.
Keep on keeponing.
Eko.
PS, please keep up the dialogue with me when you can and thanks!

Lunabell

(6,117 posts)
29. Actually, both lived in this area at the same time and were collectively called Canaanites.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 08:28 PM
Dec 2023

Native Israelis and Palestinians are closely genetically related. So basically it's just another religious war created by Abrahamic religions.

Nobody wins until both have a homeland.

https://english.m.tau.ac.il/news/canaanites#:~:text=The%20researchers%20also%20determined%20that,region%20or%20modern%2Dday%20Iran.

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
32. The PLO was offered a two state solution years ago
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 09:35 PM
Dec 2023

and multiple times... by Presidents of both parties and with the agreement of the Israeli government.

The PLO rejected it out of hand.

an Israeli prime minister was assassinated over it.

Now neither side wants it. I love Biden to death, but I don't believe he will be successful at getting either side to agree to a two state solution.

As for genetics, this is true... and likely true of any groups within hundreds of miles of Israel.

The difference is how the Palestinians view their own origin...

From the wiki on the origin of Palestinians.
"Many Palestinian villagers claim ancestral ties to Arab tribes that settled in Palestine during or after the Arab conquest"

In other words, I wouldn't go up to a member of Hamas and tell them "the Jews are your cousins, why do you make war on your cousins?"

Eko

(7,369 posts)
28. Are we talking about the Islamic religion or
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 08:27 PM
Dec 2023

about the people in Gaza? Why did they even bring up Islam? Are all Islamic's terrorists?

Eko

(7,369 posts)
31. Original poster they were replying to did not mention Islam at all.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 08:32 PM
Dec 2023

They were talking about Palestinians and they commented back about Islam.

SocialDemocrat61

(679 posts)
5. Native Americans lived on the land that currently
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 05:46 PM
Dec 2023

constitutes the United States centuries before Columbus was born. Should we dissolve the U.S. and return the land to Native Americans? Will gift all the land you own in the Americas and return to wherever your ancestors came from?

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
11. mother was half blood Cherokee, father was 1/4th Blackfoot, with English, Dutch, and Irish.so
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 06:20 PM
Dec 2023

I was offered a scholarship to attend Haskell. Didn't go. I look white. My mother... she looked Cherokee... and my cousins live on a reservation.
And you bet my father and mother suffered from discrimination and snide remarks.

So... if I get counted as White... I disagree with the expel the colonists idea, but if I get counted as native American, then hell yah, all you white people get the fuck off my land! But I still don't feel the need to launch rockets at the suburbs or travel in paragliders with machine guns to kill a bunch of unarmed 20 somethings at a music festival.



edisdead

(1,959 posts)
26. Weird
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 08:17 PM
Dec 2023

So of the 21000 the remaining 7000 were all hamas? None of the 21k were just regular males?

Also it is conceivable that (like in most wars) after the softening of targets (bombing) that there is more infantry involved and less bombing.

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
36. I do not rely on anyone's casualty numbers.
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 10:27 PM
Dec 2023

with the exception of the massacre on Oct 7th.

That number is known by many of first responders to the sites of the attacks. And since they mostly happened with gun fire, the bodies were left where they died. They might be off by a dozen or so either way... for example one person was reported today as killed on Oct 7 but Hamas took her body into Gaza ( she might have died on the way ) and kept her body there.

As for deaths since then reported by Hamas or the doctors in Hamas... without seeing actual photo evidence of every body, I don't think we can conclude the number as accurate. Nor do I believe the IDF when they estimate the number as 10 percent or 20 percent of the Hamas reported number.

I do believe the IDF on their own casualties... but the variance in the accuracy might be even higher than that of Oct 7th. Depends.

We likely will never have a full and accurate accounting of Palestinians deaths or what percentage are Hamas.

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