Half of us think Israel is bad. Half of us think Hamas and Palestinians

[Laura PourMeADrink]

Last edited Mon Dec 18, 2023, 11:33 PM - Edit history (2)

are bad.

BEST Third alternative.

NO WAR, NO KILLING, NOWHERE (& NO WAR in Ukraine, Russia!)

[RockRaven]

1. Most of us don't think in such simplistic terms: "A is bad!" or "B is bad!"

Those that do often are particularly loud and persistent posters, however.

[uponit7771]

4. This !!!👆🏿👆🏿👆🏿

[Laura PourMeADrink]

12. What???

[FHRRK]

53. I have not seen any defense of Hamas

I think they are evil gutless fucks.

The I/P conflicts are old and fucking annoying, both sides could do much better.

[3Hotdogs]

57. Then there is the general Palestinian people to consider. I look at it as, both sides are right and both sides are wrong

[applegrove]

5. Hamas is evil.

[RockRaven]

7. What is your point?

Are you declaring yourself to be of the caricature described by the OP -- which I was rejecting as a model which accurately describes DU -- where you are incapable of acknowledging wrongdoing by a non-Hamas party (i.e. Israel) now that you have done so for Hamas?

That's a weird flex if so, but okay then. Congrats on that, I guess.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

9. It would be great if you just spoke straight forward?. Just saying:(

[applegrove]

10. Nope. The OP equated Hamas and Palestinians. That is propaganda.

They were put on one side as equivalent. LIES!

[RockRaven]

14. Okay, I now see what you were saying. Thank you. nt

[applegrove]

15. We're good.

[Celerity]

54. +1000

[Laura PourMeADrink]

6. Wow how rude. But it IS a simple! A matter you

self-admittedly don't really understand?

Sometimes, in history, it is a simple idea. Both sides hate each other to the core of their beings. Both sides sadly kill and maim. And hatred runs deep. Including the next gen - their children!

Realistically, won't be solved in our life time.

[TwilightZone]

18. "self-admittedly don't really understand"

If you're conflating Hamas and Palestine, it would appear that you're the one who doesn't understand.

[elias7]

35. Wellllll, I'm not sure that they are as different from each other as many would like to believe

I’ve seen a bunch of interview vids and most of the Palestinians do seem rather sweet and down to earth, but they 1) absolutely believe tha land is theirs (guess they’ve never read the Bible, a historical or an archaeological test to realize that Jews had kingdoms BCE in this region, 2) believe the Jews should leave, especially the European ones, 3) believe Israel should not exist.

[Big Blue Marble]

40. The Bible is not the arbitrator of who has a right to claim lands in modern times.

The land was taken from the Palestinians much like the land was taken from tribal peoples of North
America. The Palestinians have lived under a brutal and increasing cruel Israeli occupation since
1967.

The Palestinian Liberation Organization signed the Oslo Agreement in 1993 acknowledging Israel's right to exist and were willing to settle for 22% Historical Palestine in exchange for a State in five years.

Israel never followed through with the plan and continued to add more and more settlements
to the Palestinian West Bank until now there are 800,000 illegal Israeli settlers living on their land
and attempting to drive them from their homes and land.

You show little.understanding of the complexities of this dreadful conflict.
It is wrong, racist and dehumanizing. to equivocate the Palestinian people with Hamas.

[elias7]

47. Right, I don't get. I'm only Jewish with family in a Israel. Could you be any more insulting?

Your understanding of the Oslo accords is unfortunately incorrect. That is not why the agreement fell through. The Palestinian narrative is that it was because of ongoing Israeli expansion in the West Bank, but Arafat never wanted peace and ultimately scuttled the process. You and I can disagree about this, but the Palestinians have been 6 time rejectionists of a two state solution since 1948. The Palestinians don’t want peace. They just want the land.

check out this video. I think they are much more aligned with Hamas than you might realize.

?si=s3hcXv22WzRW13kq

[brooklynite]

91. "The land was taken from the Palestinians"

No, it wasn't. Palestine was DIVIDED between the Palestinians and the Jews, both who lived there for centuries. The Palestinian land was then taken by the ARABS (Jordan and Egypt) who wouldn't allow a Palestinian State separate from Israel.

[Eko]

43. Its easy enough to logically flip that

and say the same about the Israelis and proof of that is easy enough to see. Not taking sides just saying.

[edisdead]

63. You decided to classify everyone in this community

You decided to classify everyone in this community and you are calling others rude?

Interesting take.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

68. Ok should have added that there's a portion who loves everyone

[obamanut2012]

89. Why are you conflating Palestinians and Hamas?

[stopdiggin]

20. Got that right!

And some of us are even capable of readjusting, refining or recalibrating our opinion - given a certain amount of credible facts and evidence.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Initech]

2. My opinion is that Hamas is the real bad guy and they're playing both Israel and Palestine for chumps.

And I have a good feeling that they're using a page straight from Putin's playbook and using weaponized propaganda on social media to pull it off.

[lpbk2713]

22. This is what I have been thinking

Hamas is playing in a high stakes game and they don't have the money or resources to play on their own. This is where Putin comes in. For one thing it takes the media's focus away from Ukraine.

[applegrove]

3. I doubt half put Hamas and Palestinians in the same

category.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

8. Didn't Palestinians vote for Hamas to lead them?

[RockRaven]

11. Given the age demographics of Gaza, most Palestinians in Gaza as of Oct 7

had never voted in their lives -- and now many never will.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

16. Ok then. Per you. All will be great after next election

[RockRaven]

17. Of course it won't, because widespread killing creates implacable enemies.

THAT fact doesn't impinge upon the judgment that excusing killing Palestinians in Gaza on the grounds that a long ago election justifies doing so is a morally monstrous position AND one which ignores the demographic realities of who voted for what.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

30. Nowhere do i say that what Palestinians voted for

justifies Hamas horror. Nor do Israelis want all this horror either

Not your enemy. Just trying to grasp it all

Gather you think that it is the leader/party of both countries that is to blame? Personally, I think its a deep hatred -- generations of hatred. SO deep and strong Our world can not fix.




.

[applegrove]

13. They voted in 2008 or 2007. Therre has not been a Democracy there since.

They are not the same and that is propaganda.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

23. Not sure agree on dates but point taken. We have to

be more sympathetic toward real PalestinIans. And not conflate Hamas with Palestinians

[applegrove]

33. Dates could be off. Got them off the top of my head.

But that is around when Hamas became authoritarian and Palestinians had no say in how Gaza developed. Hamas diverted cement to reinforce tunnels instead of creating more housing for example.

Right you are. Since 2007 it has functioned as a one party state.

"SNIP........

Since 2007, the Gaza Strip has functioned as a de facto one-party state under Hamas rule, although smaller parties—including the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), and a faction of Fatah that opposes President Abbas—are tolerated to varying ...0000

........SNIP"

https://freedomhouse.org/country/gaza-strip/freedom-world/2023#:~:text=Since%202007%2C%20the%20Gaza%20Strip,Abbas%E2%80%94are%20tolerated%20to%20varying

[brush]

78. Pls change the headline of your OP then, to be fair. Palestinian does not equal Hamas terrorists...

which is what your headline infers.

[Big Blue Marble]

42. Due to split factions and multiple candidates on the Palestinian Authority's ballot in 2007.

Hamas won with 40% only in Gaza, not the West Bank which is governed by the PA.

In Gaza, the majority of the population have never voted for any party. Any one under
voting age at the time and all who were born in the last 16 years have never had an opportunity
to vote. Do the math, a small minority of current people living in Gaza voted for Hamas.

[Celerity]

56. please do an OP on this

[brush]

77. Wasn't the last election over a decade ago? I doubt results would be the same today.

[obamanut2012]

90. 17 years ago

[Disaffected]

19. Except for the ones who think

they are both bad.

BTW, didn't Barack Obama say something along those lines?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

24. Barack refused to pick sides.

[Disaffected]

27. Case in point then?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

31. That both sides kill?. And he knows we cant solve this

In our lifetime. Course speaking for him.

Who knows what he was thinking?

[Disaffected]

60. More a counterpoint to your OP. nt

[brush]

79. As there were/are innocent non-combatants killed/being killed on both sides, impartiality is a wise course.

President Obama obviously knows this.

[LeftInTX]

21. Hamas is super evil. Israel is corrupt and above the law

Wish we weren't funding their war.

[Oneironaut]

67. Exactly! I find it impossible to support either side in good conscience.

I can only hope that the war stops entirely and permanently, and, that both sides learn to live together.

However, I also wish I had a billion dollars too.

[brush]

80. Absolutely.

[stopdiggin]

25. Neither side is blameless - but by no stretch does that make for equivalency -(nt)-

and I don't think the majority of DU - slice this up into anywhere near such simplistic black/white, left/right scenarios.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

32. But what is one supposed to do? BLAME is too

complex to assign. Cease fire now is all weve got!

[stopdiggin]

61. I don't oppose a call for cease fire

I will however point to the fact that there have been calls (and mouthpieces) for 'cease fire' - since around roughly Oct. 8 or 9.

Will also offer that 'cease fire' covers a lot of ground - some of which might not be applicable, or agreeable. It is probably per force necessary that someone continues to clean the rats out of the tunnels, etc., etc. If you've got a murderous blood thirsty rapist hiding in your basement ...

(you also utterly and completely lost me with a call for "NO to Ukraine/Russia" - IMO that is truly head in the sand nonsense)
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[Laura PourMeADrink]

76. Tough crowd ready to pounce tonight. No war in Ukraine, Russia!

[lapfog_1]

26. sounds good... but

take Israel / Hamas war. you want Israel to simply stop with the Gaza invasion, withdraw the IDF and stop bombing. OK. The military and political leaders of Hamas have vowed to repeat the actions of Oct 7th. Their stated intention is actual Genocide against Israel. And the Palestinian supporters that chant "From the River to the Sea, Palestine shall be free" are joining with Hamas in that sentiment. No two state solution but a single state of Palestine... with all of Israel given to Palestinians and the Jewish people there "gone" (either killed or removed).

So, what happens when Hamas launches the next rocket or stages the next invasion? Also would you allow the people that killed and raped over a 1000 innocent Jewish people to go free?

As for Ukraine / Russia... again, nice to hope for peace. But would you allow Russia to keep all of the territory it annexed from Ukraine in the invasion? What will you do when Russia attacks again even if "peace" is established. In the last 2 days Putin has stated that his goals ( whatever they are ) have not yet been achieved in Ukraine. Will you tell the people of Ukraine in the conquered territory that "too bad, you are now part of Russia"... and what about the 1000s of children of Ukraine kidnapped by Russians and sent to orphanages or forced into adoption by Russians. Too bad, your children are just gone now? Do you think Putin will just return them, no problem?

Some wars are worth fighting. WW1 and WW2 are good examples. Other good examples are The Civil War and The Revolutionary War. and the War of 1812 (really a continuation of the Revolutionary War).

I'm on the fence about the Korean War and the Gulf War.

Totally against the Spanish American War, the Vietnam War, and the Iraq War.

As bad as they are, the Ukraine Freedom War and the destroy Hamas war are worth fighting because declaring "peace" is not likely to stop the war and is unfair to the two combatants trying to stop the other side from killing all of its citizens ( Israel and Ukraine ).

[TwilightZone]

28. It's not a binary choice.

It's significantly more complicated than you're trying to make it, and there's already a third alternative.

It's quite possible to condemn Hamas and understand that they are a terrorist organization, not dissimilar to Al Qaeda, etc., who uses tactics that intentionally put civilians in harm's way, while also believing that Israel has a right to defend itself, and also wishing that they would minimize civilian casualties as much as possible in their response, with the understanding that collateral damage is a part of war.

Meanwhile, we should acknowledge that Hamas ended a ceasefire when they started this on October 7th and another that was negotiated when hostages were released, so the simplistic demands of an immediate ceasefire may not be the magic solution many seem to believe. It's going to take more than just waving a few banners and posting bumper sticker slogans online.

[stopdiggin]

65. that pretty much covers it - (or at least makes a darned good start) -(nt)-

[JT45242]

29. I don't think Israel or Palestinians are bad...I think bibi and the leaders of Hamas are bad

When elephants fight, the ground weeps.

My guess is that most of us on DU feel the same way. The civilian Israeli and Palestinians are simply pawns in the evil machinations of others.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

37. Took a month or two but perhaps DU got there?

[EX500rider]

50. "I think bibi and the leaders of Hamas are bad"

So the Hamas fighters who crossed the border on a murderous invasion of torture & rape are OK guys who were "simply pawns"?

[JT45242]

82. No...not what I meant.

But the leaders who ordered them to commit war crimes are more culpable.

Civilian victims on both sides are being used as pawns.

[brush]

81. This right here.

[Xolodno]

34. This isn't binary and far more complicated.

You have Israeli Jews literally armed and defending Palestinian farms from settlers in the West Bank. Bibi has boasted about keeping Hamas afloat to make sure Fatah can never take control (it obviously blew up in his face) and there are worse groups than Hamas in Gaza. And given Bibi has neutered Fatah so much, many Palestinians don't think they are capable of governing or providing security. And then you have settlers in the West Bank who look at Palestinians as less than animals and don't think genocide applies to them...despite genetic research showing the two peoples as being cousins.

We have a tendency to look at things in neat buckets that are clearly defined, the world doesn't operate that way. We give aid to Egypt, but when my tour van passed their version of West Point, murals of El Sisi of course, but also of him shaking hands with Xi and Putin, not one single one of a western leader.

When I was in Paris, walked past a statue of Jefferson...then shortly later a street named after Stalin.

And don't get me started on Ukraine.

Can't apply our values and thinking to the rest of the world, it doesn't work that way.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

38. Exactly! Way too complex. Hundreds of years

Of complexity. So to automatically pick a side is absurd. IMHO

[Kaleva]

36. Where did you get the info the DU is split 50/50?

On this issue?

I don't comment either way as I trust Biden and his team to do the best they can to achieve the best possible outcome. My opinion would have no impact at all so I haven't formed one. Whatever Biden can achieve is fine with me .

[Laura PourMeADrink]

39. What? Have no idea how DU is split. 1/2 and 1/2

Is just a general term for disagreement. Was a definitely not like that 6 weeks ago.

Just curious....have you always thought that? Whatever our Dem prez says/does is ok? Must be nice to think that way

[Kaleva]

41. I don't concern myself with matters I can do nothing about

I see no value in getting into a pissing contest over matters none of us can do anything about.

I concentrate on what I can do such as preparing for catastrophic climate change. I can't prevent it but I can prepare for it

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

[electric_blue68]

86. No, I think it's a sloppy term for often more complex takes on this awful situation.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

95. Have at it!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

69. Its a general term. Half and half. Not scientific at all!

[Eko]

44. Sometimes, two things can be right at the same time.

[JustAnotherGen]

45. No to Ukraine, Russia?

Whoa. So we should ignore Ukraine and let Russia roll over Europe?

[betsuni]

46. Was wondering about that too.

[JustAnotherGen]

59. Stunning

I sometimes wonder if people have connections with others globally?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

74. What???

[Laura PourMeADrink]

75. Yikes thats absurd. NO WAR NO KILLING in Ukraine ! Russia! Geez

Tough crowd.

[Chainfire]

48. I think that some people believe that all of the dead Palestinian women and children are Hamas rapists and murderers.

That makes it easier to put their humanity into park. There is evil on both sides of this war.

[ananda]

49. And some of us think war is just hell for everyone!

!

[Happy Hoosier]

51. No to Ukraine!? WTAF!? NT

[Laura PourMeADrink]

70. No killing in the Ukraine.

[Happy Hoosier]

72. There wouldn't be killing in Ukraine....

If the Russians hadn’t invaded.

[Calculating]

52. Some wars are worth fighting

Ukraine vs Russia is, it's about putting a permanent end to Russian imperialism. Russia needs to understand that it isn't acceptable to invade and anex parts of your neighbors in this day and age.

Hamas vs Israel... yeah that war kinda sucks. Hamas needs to be wiped from existence, but they hide among civilians.

[DavidDvorkin]

55. Please correct the spelling of "Israel".

[Laura PourMeADrink]

71. Done...thanks

[Pisces]

58. Wrong, No one thinks Hamas is good, and No one thinks Isreal is bad. Asking for a ceasefire

Does not confirm your false statements.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

87. After i saw the interview clips

Of children over there, both sides....it became apparent that this situation would last for a lifetime if not more.

[edisdead]

62. Yeah no

But nice attempt at dividing the community into camps.

[BannonsLiver]

64. Bumper sticker slogans don't mean much.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

73. Ok course some do !!!! NO WAR. NO KILLING!

[BannonsLiver]

94. Cool. You've said that. Now what?

[misanthrope]

66. I think humans stick with the familiar

and when hatred becomes their raison d'etre, then the resulting mess is completely foreseeable.

[Kennah]

83. Which half of us? Top? Bottom? Left? Right? Inside? Outside?

[Kennah]

84. No war ever? Sounds good. What's your plan?

There have been plenty of wars over time that were nothing more than prick-waving, colonialism, or something worse.

Assuming we could eliminate those, through whatever method, what do we do about Putin invading Ukraine? Just let it happen? Or Hitler? How about the US fighting the Confederacy?

[MyNameIsJonas]

85. I would hope all of us think Hamas is bad.

[obamanut2012]

88. Why are you equating Palestinians with Hamas?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

93. Would be great to focus on the gist and not nuanced wordsmithing?