What is Zionism

[yardwork]

There seems to be widespread misunderstanding about the meaning of the word Zionism.

Joe Biden said that he is a Zionist. Now people are asking what that means, exactly.

I am not Jewish. So I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by posting this thread. I am eager to learn more and open to corrections!

From the Anti-Defamation League, the definition of Zionism:

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/zionism

Excerpts:

Today, with a Jewish sovereign state a reality, Zionists believe in and support the right of the democratic State of Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland. Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. Being a Zionist is distinct from supporting the policies of the government of Israel.
....

....There are Zionists who are critical of Israeli policies, just as there are Zionists who rarely voice disagreement with the Israeli government. There are diverse views among Zionists about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, about how to promote peace, whether to support a two-state solution, and about approaches to Israeli settlements. Being critical of Israeli policies is no more anti-Zionist than being critical of American policies is anti-American.

Zionism does not preclude support for Palestinian self-determination and statehood. For some Zionists, support for a two-state solution is the realization of self-determination for Jews and Palestinians alike.

There are also millions of non-Jews who consider themselves Zionists and supporters of the Jewish state, who are motivated by factors including religion, history, security or politics.

[bdamomma]

1. Nationalism

https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/zionism


just an addendum to add to the original post.

[yardwork]

2. Nationalism? What are you saying?

[WarGamer]

36. the definition?

Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”). Though Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the latter part of the 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient attachment of the Jews and of the Jewish religion to the historical region of Palestine, where one of the hills of ancient Jerusalem was called Zion.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism

[yardwork]

75. I was just a little confused by the poster's brief message.

Wasn't sure what they meant.

[Oopsie Daisy]

27. History Channel... LOL!

Please.

The network was originally focused on history-based, social/science documentaries as well as the news. During the late 2000s, History pivoted into reality television programming. In addition to this change in format, the network has been criticized by many scientists, historians, and skeptics for broadcasting pseudo-documentaries and pseudoscientific, unsubstantiated, sensational investigative programming.

[sheshe2]

71. Lol...I am so loving your user name.

[Nanjeanne]

3. From Encyclopedia Britannica - a history and in depth discourse

[link:https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism|] -

And if you are really interested in Zionism and those Jewish people who do not consider themselves Zionists - this is a fascinating article by Rabbi Morris S. Lazaron. It's from The Jewish Museum of Maryland - and gives some context to political considerations now - for anyone interested in reading an alternative description of what is and isn't Zionism. Why I was a Zionist and Why I Am Not [link:https://jewishmuseummd.org/why-i-was-a-zionist-and-why-i-now-am-not/|]

A fascinating conversation - Zionism has many different meaning to many different Jews and isn't a simple statement. The ADL presents their take on what Zionism is. But it's not the definitive answer - it's their political modern take. For many Jews - myself included - the ADL has a checkered past - from the 1970s when they partnered with the rise of right-wing politicians in Israel, 1980s when they worked to mask Israel’s ties to the apartheid regime in South Africa to the more recent history including defending the US government’s program of domestic spying on Muslim communities and joining in the frenzied opposition to the construction of a mosque near Ground Zero.

So yes - read the ADL's statement on what is Zionism - and then explore other definitions and thoughts on it. It's not one-size-fits-all. At least not for this Jew.

[yardwork]

4. Thank you.

What do think of the History.com source posted below my OP?

[Nanjeanne]

8. I'm no scholar - but it seems pretty straight forward. It gives some history and then explains how Zionism

can be reflected differently. There are certainly Zionist lefts and Zionist rights as described but I've never heard anyone describe themselves as a Zionist left or right. And it's certainly true that people who are "anti-Zionists" aren't exactly people who don't want Israel to exist (now that it does exist) but more theoretical about the idea that there should be a national homeland as an essential part of the religion.

*I deleted the post above since I replied in the wrong place!

[Beastly Boy]

30. Considering the extraordinary diversity within the inclusive umbrella of Zionism, it is interesting to note

Last edited Tue Dec 12, 2023, 08:43 PM - Edit history (1)

how uniformly and indiscriminately the term "Zionist entity" has been used by Israel's enemies as a slur:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_entity

I had also noticed attempts to apply similar usage of the term, as well as "Zionist" as its abridged version, here on DU.

[Nanjeanne]

32. Ive never heard that expression. I must not be reading those DU threads! Glad I've missed them!

[Beastly Boy]

39. I wish I missed them too. My bad luck, I guess.

[Nanjeanne]

40. Hang in there. Lots of passion on every side. I'd like to think although we have very different opinions

on things we believe our opinions come from a place of empathy and hope.

[Beastly Boy]

42. Actually, DU helps me cope when things seem hopeless.

It is as much of a welcome relief to hear reasonable voices that agree and disagree with my views as it is a great disappointment to hear the voices that express views similar or contrary to mine for no reason.

I do thank you for the thread.

[bdamomma]

11. Thank you.

nt

[redqueen]

12. This part:

I wish I understood why the ADL is the go-to when they are so clearly right wing

the ADL has a checkered past - from the 1970s when they partnered with the rise of right-wing politicians in Israel, 1980s when they worked to mask Israel’s ties to the apartheid regime in South Africa to the more recent history including defending the US government’s program of domestic spying on Muslim communities and joining in the frenzied opposition to the construction of a mosque near Ground Zero.

[Nanjeanne]

13. I think people are essentially lazy. PR works. And the ADL has been right on some issues but they

a definitely take anti Muslim and Palestinian sides and are extra hyper pro Israeli. Even more so since Jonathan Greenblatt has taken the helm.

[yardwork]

17. Are you saying I am lazy because I cited the ADL?

I noted in my OP that I'm not Jewish and not an expert, and am open to additional information.
I think I've indicated that openness here. I haven't questioned your criticisms of the ADL. I don't think I deserve to be called "lazy" for citing what I thought was an authoritative source.

[Nanjeanne]

18. Not at all. Someone asked me why the ADL seems to be the sole arbiter of things Jewish.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. The ADL is a good source.

It is "right-wing" because it advocates for Jews. While I certainly don't agree with everything they have done (nor do I with the ACLU and several other organizations), what they have done, for the most part is good and just.

[Nanjeanne]

20. I'd never consider anyone right wing because they advocate for Jews. Strange.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Didn't say YOU did. So, not strange.

[Nanjeanne]

22. My mistake. You replied to me so...

[Behind the Aegis]

66. No, I didn't. I replied to yardwork.

[Nanjeanne]

70. Oh ooops.

[yardwork]

23. That was my understanding. Thanks.

I posted this OP because it became apparent in the DU response to Biden's announcement that he is a Zionist that many of us don't really know what that means.

I'm very open to correction and clarification. My goal is to help share knowledge.

[mcar]

62. Honestly, does anyone agree 100% with any organization?

I like that you site the ACLU - they are a wonderful organization doing great work for democracy. Yet, they have defended, at times, TFG's rights to free speech.

I'm not going to throw them under the bus because of that. They are true to their mission.

[Mosby]

25. People on the right think the exact opposite about the ADL.

They think the ADL and Greenblatt have gone "woke".

[LetMyPeopleVote]

35. My Temple and the ADL personnel regularly have Muslim clergy attend our services

My temple which has a good number of board members who are active in the ADL regularly have Muslim clerics attend our services and our Rabbis regularly attend their services.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

34. One of my law partners is a past president of our ADL chapter and I donate to ADL regularly

I am a strong supporter of the ADL and seen actions taken by the ADL. For example, there is a SCOTUS decision on the Santa Fe school district where a group of parents sued the school in a Sundown community between Houston and Galveston on the issue of prayer at football games. Sundown communities are communities where non-whites need to be out of the town by sundown or risk death or bodily injury.

The plaintiffs in that lawsuit were all "John Does" and "Jane Does" who were actually a bunch of non-Jews. The one Jewish family in that little town was of course blamed for the lawsuit simply because they were Jewish. The ADL stepped in and helped protect these innocent people. Another example is that a fellow member of the board of my Temple attended a school that formed a christian club dedicated to further the second coming by forcing the conversion of Jews. This club was an official school club and had a couple of teachers who were sponsors. This group targeted my friend's daughter and told her that she was selfish for not converting to christianity. The ADL visited that school and that club was quickly disbanded and the teachers experience the joy of nearly being sued.

The ADL does great work and the source cited by you is pure BS. I was amused that there were no source cited by this crap. I am not surprised.

The sad post just caused me to double my ADL contribution this year.

[redqueen]

50. I can see why they're perceived as left leaning.

But then they do stuff like compliment Elon musk for his "leadership in fighting hate" after he agreed to ban anyone for antisemitism - so apparently they're ok with everything else he allows on that hellsite.

And then there's the history with South Africa.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

54. Do you have a source for the amusing but wrong material cited?

In the real world, one needs to provide a source for the material cited. Your material appears to be from a RWNJ site

[redqueen]

72. Sure let me Google that for you

Link to tweet

There's plenty about the history of Israel and apartheid south Africa - here's a few

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/24/us/anti-defamation-league-accused-of-spying.html

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/08/israeli-diplomat-bard-college-apartheid-debate


Y'know what, on edit, I'm sick of all this nasty shit from some people on this site. Fuck this

[sheshe2]

57. Please link to those twitter threads. I would like to read them.

Like here at DU, no one has to read posts or posters they dislike or disagree with. You can just ignore them.

I am still on twitter, yes there are people there that make it a hell site. However there are posters that I love to follow. Our Reps for one, also, Hillary, Biden and Harris. Victor Shi and David Hogg, amazing young men and a guy named Human that refutes every damn talking point with a focused precision and the facts. None of them post here on DU.

Where do you read these people? All social media like FB etc has its issues. So where do you go? At DU, we don't create the news we bring in the news from many, many sources and then we discuss it.

[yardwork]

60. Well said, sheshe!

[redqueen]

73. All this was recently reported in The Nation

It's cute how nasty some people are

See post 72 if Google doesn't work for you either

[sheshe2]

74. Why are you insulting me?

Why are you calling me nasty for asking for a link? There is nothing "cute" about it. You can DU better than that, redqueen.

I don't need google, you need to post your links. That is on you.

[mcar]

63. This is great information about the work of ADL

I'm getting the vibe that they are being smeared like the Southern Poverty Law Center gets smeared. I appreciate this, LMPV.

[yardwork]

67. I'm getting that vibe, too. Ditto ACLU.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

69. I also donate to the SPLC

[sheshe2]

26. This is also some fascinating history of Rabbi Morris S. Lazaron.

Lazaron was a founder and co-president of the anti-Zionist American Council for Judaism. Lazaron's anti-Zionism was uncontroversial until after the Holocaust and the creation of the State of Israel, which lead to the severing of ties between Lazaron and Baltimore Hebrew and his resignation as rabbi emeritus in 1946*.

Lazaron was forced to resign after refusing to comply with a request from the synagogue's board of directors to refrain from attacking Zionism in his sermons. While opposing Jewish nationalism, political Zionism, and the establishment of a Jewish state...

...he began to critique Zionism after visiting Nazi Germany during the 1930s. (!!)

*1946 was two years before the actual creation of the state of Israel.

And also this:

In 1934, Lazaron wrote a letter defending the use of Jewish quotas in American universities. He claimed that "Too many of our Jewish students are going into medicine" and felt it necessary to "to divert, if possible, the increasing flow of Jewish students into this profession.."

This article also goes into some of his opinions of "Zionism" and "Nationalism", which like other things are only excuses....

Not exactly the guy you want to speak for the Jewish people or Israel.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Lazaro

.............................


It's not one-size-fits-all. No, I am not Jewish.

[Cha]

29. REC.. TY, she, for gving us a Different Prospective on Rabbi Morris S. Lazaron.

[sheshe2]

31. The full story should be told.

Yes, both sides now, Cha.

[Cha]

33. Yes.. it's Fascinating.

[Cha]

48. Pres Biden calls himself a "Zionist"..

Link to tweet

Per LMPV's post down thread.

:

[mcar]

64. Holy shite!

[2naSalit]

5. Mormons call themselves zionists.

[yardwork]

6. I'm not very familiar with that, although I've been to Zion National Park in Utah.

Do you have more info on Mormons and Zionism?

[2naSalit]

9. Here's how they describe it...

From the official website:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/06/come-follow-me/what-is-zion?lang=eng

[yardwork]

24. Interesting! Thanks.

[mcar]

65. OT: We were in Zion early November

An amazing place.

[yardwork]

68. So beautiful!

[yorkster]

10. So a Zionist can support the State of Israel

and also support an independent Palestinian state. Also, they can be critical of certain Israeli government figures and policies.
For some reason, I had a general impression that Zionism meant support for Israel at any cost, which is not the case.

This is an important article. Thanks ADL and yardwork for sharing this.

[yardwork]

14. You're welcome!

I'm far from an expert myself!

[Nanjeanne]

16. It's taken on that slant. But things are nuanced. It's why Jews can be anti Zionist as well. For

me, Israel has the right to exist exist. It does exist. But if it didn’t - I’ve never thought a country should exist as a national homeland tied to a religion. I was asked about an article and I was quoting the article. I’ve never heard the terms left Zionist or right Zionist so there’s that. I am not a Zionist in the original idea of Zionism. But I have family in Israel. Of course it has a right to exist As I believe a Palestinian state does. Do I wish there could be one state for Israelis and Palestinians and lots of other religions? With all my heart. But that’s not going to happen. Two states is the best I can see. There are Arab citizens of Israel. But while they have some of the same rights they don’t have others. In Israel, your nationality is determined by your ethnicity and it cannot be changed or challenged and many of the rights accorded in Israel stem from your nationality not your citizenship. Meaning an “Arab” Israeli citizen and a Jewish Israeli citizen, while both citizens, enjoy different rights and privileges determined by their “nationality”.

Things are usually quite complex when not relegated to sound bites.

[TheKentuckian]

38. Of course not. That wouldn't make work. Governments

change and have a variety of policies that Israelis will agree and disagree with.

Israel criticizes itself from all directions, all the time just like any other free or significantly free society.

No way anyone is going to 100% agree 100% of the time or even close so it is impossible there would be any way to support Israel completely any more than anyone can support The United States completely but Israel as a Jewish state is the key link.

[yorkster]

53. I realize my comment may have sounded

naive/simplistic. It was more a comment on a general feeling about what is meant by Zionism. I'm not Jewish, but strongly believe in the existence of a Jewish State and a Palestinian State, though at this moment that seems a remote possibility.
So perhaps now I can say that I too am a Zionist.

[yardwork]

58. I appreciated your post!

This is exactly why I made the OP - so that we can learn from one another.

[lapucelle]

47. What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel

What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel

Summary

Arabs comprise just over 20 percent of Israel’s population. The vast majority are citizens, while those in Jerusalem, which Israel claims as its capital, are considered “permanent residents.”

Arab citizens have the same legal rights as Jewish Israelis, but they tend to live in poorer cities, have less formal education, and face other challenges that some experts attribute to structural discrimination.

Arab political parties have long struggled to gain representation in Israel’s government, and many Arabs have expressed alarm at the leadership of right-wing Jewish politicians, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

More information at the link:

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

[yardwork]

51. A lot of people don't know that Arabs make up 20% of Israel's population.

There are a lot of misconceptions. Just today on DU I've heard people post that they thought Zionism means that Palestine can't exist as a self-determining nation, that Zionism requires a Jewish theocratic state, that all Israelis are Jews, etc. Each of those beliefs is false.

Those of us expressing opinions about the Gaza conflict need to become educated on basic facts

[lapucelle]

52. A lot of the misinformation you read on social media consists of unsourced assertions. N/T

[yardwork]

59. I have no doubt that is true.

Unfortunately, a lot of people are taking falsehoods as facts.

[LexVegas]

28. Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland. nt

[LetMyPeopleVote]

37. "You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist and I am a Zionist."

Link to tweet

[TheKentuckian]

41. I'm with you, a great grandfather aside.

[Cha]

45. Pres Biden "You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist and I am a Zionist."

Mahalo, LMPV

Link to tweet

I bet POTUS knows the True meaning of Zionist.

[Sneederbunk]

43. To be a Zionist you must support a Jewish theocratic state.

[yardwork]

44. I'm not seeing that in these definitions.

Several different sources are offered in this thread and none of them state that the definition of Zionism is supporting a Jewish theocratic state. If you have a source, please cite it.

Judaism is much more than a religion. It is an ethnic and cultural identity.

Edited to add: I believe that Israel is considered a secular nation. In fact, I think it's the only secular nation in the Middle East, although I might be wrong about that.

Edited: Wiki has demographics of Israel. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Israel, as it is worldwide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

[Cha]

46. TY Rec

[lapucelle]

49. Do you have a source for that claim? N/T

[Beastly Boy]

55. Where is this coming from?

Did you know that Zionism started out as a secular movement started by a secular liberal Jewish journalist?

Ever heard of Christian Zionism?

[mcar]

56. Thank you for posting this

There seems to be a lot of disinformation about this term.

[yardwork]

61. You're welcome!