Gaza Civilians Are Being Killed At Historic Rate

[RainWalker]

Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace
In less than two months, more than twice as many women and children have been reported killed in Gaza than in Ukraine after two years of war.

[link:https://archive.ph/oQULH|]

Israel has cast the deaths of civilians in the Gaza Strip as a regrettable but unavoidable part of modern conflict, pointing to the heavy human toll from military campaigns the United States itself once waged in Iraq and Syria.

But a review of past conflicts and interviews with casualty and weapons experts suggest that Israel’s assault is different.

While wartime death tolls will never be exact, experts say that even a conservative reading of the casualty figures reported from Gaza show that the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century.

People are being killed in Gaza more quickly, they say, than in even the deadliest moments of U.S.-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, which were themselves widely criticized by human rights groups.

[Arazi]

1. Hamas is forcing civilians to stay on the battlefront (at gunpoint)

It’s a war.

Civilians die in war.

Hamas are pathological monsters who believe innocents who get killed are righteous “martyrs”.

Furthermore the dead people serve Hamas/Kremlin propaganda purposes for useful idiots who somehow want to spin this as Israel’s fault.

[RainWalker]

8. I don't understand the Kremlin connection

Hamas is awful. Israel is awful.
It's always the innocent who suffer in war. Always. This has to stop.

[yardwork]

14. You don't understand the Kremlin connection?

Let me connect the dots.

Putin and every other authoritarian on Earth would prefer to have Trump as the American president. Trump is a narcissist fool who is highly compromised and easily manipulated.

Hamas launched not just a terrorist strike but a global propaganda campaign in October. Emotionally riled up people call for Biden to "do something," threatening to withdraw their vote if he doesn't solve this right now. Right now.

Democrats are divided against one another. Who does this help? Trump. Who does Trump as president help? Putin, every other dictator, and most billionaires.

[hay rick]

38. Thanks for including billionaires in your list.

An outstanding, but little mentioned alliance within the anti-democracy cabal, is oil industry interests. They are united by their desires to regulate supply to assure maximum profit, to claim expansive extraction rights with minimal environmental responsibility, and to use the atmosphere as a dumping ground for particulates, carbon dioxide, methane, etc. without accountability.

[yardwork]

41. I agree! They're the biggest players. They have the money.

And a lot of Putin's motivation is from his role as an oil billionaire.

[TeamProg]

40. It may have turned out that way, but I doubt your conspiracy theory. Putin has no credibility

left. And what does Xi, KIm Jong-Il, or other non-M.E. dictators have do with this war, anyway?

[yardwork]

42. Every authoritarian and most billionaires benefit by having a fool in the White House.

The U.S. is a powerful nation and owning the U.S. president is a powerful tool. We know that Trump is compromised and owes Russia and China.

This propaganda has Russian troll farm fingerprints all over it.

[TeamProg]

48. That is short term thinking. Economies THRIVE when people are free and democracy is the norm. Look around!

Dictatorships are most often poor, look around! Look at China's failing economy. Corporations do not want that, they are FLEEING China as I type this.

Don't believe that B.S.

[yardwork]

50. What in the world?

You are SERIOUSLY misreading my posts.

[TeamProg]

58. I got ya, you were referring to a "fool" like Trump as POTUS - not some other authoritarian. You are right

about that.

I read your post to mean putting any (smart) dictator in office.

[yardwork]

71. Right. Putin and others want Trump back in the White House.

He owes Russia and China a lot of money, apparently. He also is easy to manipulate because he has narcissistic personality disorder so if threats don't work, flattery will. He's a moron who doesn't know anything. He's putty in their hands. He gives them things. He brags like a child and shows off top secret documents. For dictators all over the world he's a gift that keeps on giving.

Biden is smart, tough and savvy. He doesn't fall for their bullshit. Of course they want Trump back. So they need to peel off some Democratic voters. Make Democrats mad at one another. Get Democratic base groups mad at Biden because something something Israel. Depress the vote. Hey it worked in 2016.

[Arazi]

55. Strongmen don't give a shit about anything but their power, their riches

It’s laughable you think strongmen authoritarians care about anything like whether their people are poor (or starving) but themselves. MBS, Putin, Xi, Bolsonaro, Kim Jong Un etc

[TeamProg]

57. I don't, corporations in a free economy do though. I do not worry about the USA becomming

a full blown authoritarion state b/c the big corporations will never let it happen. They have too much to lose.

[yardwork]

72. I don't know. They might push it too far, though.

They're not very organized or forward thinking. The CEOs and boards are in it for themselves. Short term gains, take the money and run.

[Arazi]

15. Putin is shitstirring all over the planet

His goal is to wear down the US with attacks anywhere he can stir it up, that will consume US resources anywhere he can (and draw attention, $$, and weapons away from Ukraine).

By falling for the lie that Israel is the baddie in this conflict, folks are literally spreading Kremlin propaganda. It’s nauseating. Putin’s hand is directly influencing Hamas (in partnership with other bad actors like Iran, Qatar etc)

Some articles outlining Putin’s strategy:

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/90841

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/world/middleeast/hamas-russia-moscow.html

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/russias-relationship-hamas-and-putins-global-calculations

[RainWalker]

19. Both are the bad guys

And opposing Israel's atrocities alongside the atrocities Hamas has committed isn't championing talking points from the Kremlin. That's literally the exact same argument that was made against people who protested the Viet Nam war. It's red scare v2.0

[Arazi]

21. You didn't even take one minute to read the links did you?

Tsk tsk.

Outed as operating in bad faith

[TeamProg]

43. NY Times is pay-walled. The NY Times helped BushCo get us ito the War On Irag. 'nuff said. nt

[Arazi]

47. Then take the time to read ANY other foreign policy outlet

I posted two other sources for this.

But sure, latch onto the one…

Again, bad faith discussions happening all over this

[herding cats]

83. Gifted link below.

It's worth the read.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/world/middleeast/hamas-russia-moscow.html?unlocked_article_code=1.BU0.npYN.V3ML2zenke2T&smid=url-share

[David__77]

22. That's right. Why is it only "division" to oppose mass killing in Gaza?

Perhaps it is “division” to give Israel unconditional support.

[Beastly Boy]

36. It is only division when you divisively placce the blame

for the massacre of civilians on Israel alone, when the blame in fact belongs to Hamas.

For example: nowhere in this article is Hamas'role in the killing of civilians acknowledged, and the default presumption of culpability is, exlplicitly and implicitly, placed at Israel's feet alone.

That's divisive, no?

[David__77]

52. The article is "divisive" in the sense that some will disagree with its asserted facts or assumed premises.

[Beastly Boy]

60. The article's assumed premises are divisive regardless of any disagreements.

They are demonstrably so. It is evident from the text that the article presumes, as a default position requiring no further elaboration, that Israel is the sole cause of the civilian deaths. The article literally states so. By definition, this is divisive.

The effect of this divisive presumtion is that it ppermits the authors to leave some fundamentally significant facts unasserted. This too is divisive. Or prejudicious, if you prefer.

[yardwork]

49. Simple. Support President Biden.

As a Democrat, express public support for President Biden's handling of the situation. Express sadness for all who are suffering and state publicly that President Biden is doing a good job and you'll support his reelection.

This neutralizes the anti-Biden propaganda.

[LeftInTX]

66. I think we're being infiltrated by the Green Party or Party for Liberation and Socialism

They thrive on division.
They want to take down the Democratic Party.

[yardwork]

46. Thanks for posting those links.

[herding cats]

59. Here's a connect the dots primer for Putin's involvement.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4250708-putins-fingerprints-are-on-hamas/

There was only one real winner last Saturday when war broke out in Israel — Russian President Vladimir Putin.

........

Russia has fomented discord, violence and division throughout the Sahel, the Black Sea, the Middle East, the Balkans and the Baltic States. It has done so by sowing disinformation through social media platforms, by direct interventions and by funding and training insurgents to overthrow governments through the use of mercenaries such as PMC Wagner.

Moscow has brutally suppressed uprisings in Chechnya and Syria, supported insurrections in Niger and Sudan, illegally annexed “Russian-speaking” territories in Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine and Crimea, and, in February 2022, launched its “special military operation” in Ukraine — so far a failure that threatens Putin’s aspirations.
He needed a distraction, and last weekend he got it.

.......

Russia’s relationship with Iran — a principal supporter of Hamas — suggests a more nefarious relationship.

Hamas leaders traveled to Moscow in March 2023, where according to the Russian Foreign Ministry, their meeting “touched on Russia’s unchanged position in support of a just solution to the Palestinian problem.” More recently, Hamas politburo chief Ismail Haniyeh was in Moscow on Sept. 10. At the time, Hillel Frisch, a senior fellow at the Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security, thought the purpose of the meeting was “to signal [Moscow’s] displeasure with Israel, perhaps in relation to Ukraine.”

Given the events of Oct. 7, a more likely explanation would be that he back-briefed the Kremlin on Hamas’s final preparations for the attack timed to take place on Putin’s 71st birthday — a quid pro quo.
Other activities suggest Russian support and organization.
According to the Ukrainian Center of National Resistance, members of PMC Wagner, who left Belarus for Africa, allegedly participated in the training of Hamas militants on “assault tactics and the use of small unmanned aerial vehicles to drop explosive devices onto vehicles and other targets.”

Israeli government and media websites were repeatedly targeted with distributed denial-of-service attacks — “a type of cyberattack that floods websites with traffic and forces them offline” — by hacking groups associated with Russia and allied with Hamas. Killnet and Anonymous Sudan claimed they had brought down multiple Israeli websites, including those of Israel’s security agency, Shin Bet and the Jerusalem Post.
A Russian disinformation campaign was launched immediately trying to associate weapons found in Gaza, used by Hamas to slaughter innocent civilians in Israel, with “Western-donated weapons” to Ukraine, implying that they had been sold on the black market to Hamas, in an attempt to “erode support for Ukraine.”

You can't even begin to assume you know what's transpiring currently in that region without at least a rudimentary understanding of the geopolitical situation.

[yardwork]

73. Thank you for posting this.

[herding cats]

84. I'm all about helping people learn about the plans of Putin

His grubby little paws are all over the ME, Israel and Palestine relations. It surprises me how quickly people forgot about his influence in Syria with Assad. Then there's how Iran has been supplying him with the drones he's using against the Ukrainian people. There's definitely quid pro quo for that in his involvement with training Hamas. The timing makes it obvious.

[claudette]

27. And you know this how?

Babies are forced to stay on the “battlefield?” What battlefield? Homes and apartment houses are being bombed.

[Beastly Boy]

35. It was up to Hamas to make it a battlefield or not. And thet did. They are not making it a secret.

By placing their military assets near or under homes and apartments, they turned them into battlefields. They are not shy to admit that this was their intention since way before the war started.

Somehow I suspect you knew this before you posted. And if you didn't, you should have. And if you are still pleading ignorance, well you can't anymore.

[Arazi]

37. Northern Gaza - a place Israel told the world was going to be the front in their war

Against Hamas.

There are literally thousands of stories on this - I dont believe anyone here on DU missed it but as a reminder:

1.Israel told Palestinians to evacuate south of the river. Gave civilians weeks to move (at most) 12 miles to get out of the way.

2. Hamas told their civilian population to stay

3. Hamas actually has fired on evacuating civilians as they tried to leave the “battlefield” - ie the northern part of Gaza.

Weirdly enough, urban warfare is a thing - whereby the enemy hides in population centers and the war literally happens in civilian areas with homes, apartments etc.

Did you see the destruction of Aleppo? (Hundreds of thousands of trapped Muslim babies and women killed there)

Or Mariupol?

Or virtually every big-ish town in the Sudan.

Your selective knowledge about where babies are during wars, AND alternatively, your specificity on where you’re outraged about urban warfare (only Israel unless you can point me to your posts condemning the slaughter in Aleppo for ex) is noted

[claudette]

61. ok

blah blah blah - NOTHING there proves what you said about what Hamas told their civilian, especially if it's coming from an Israeli source.

Sorry, you can name lots of civilians killed in other conflicts. I am just as appalled at that as of Gaza.

You call it "urban warfare?" There is not one military fighting against another military in an urban area. It is Israel bombing places where civilians LIVE - many of those who could NOT evacuate because they were too old, too sick or had no way to go.

Please - NOTHING justifies what Hamas did to Israel and what they did to Israel does NOT justify the bombardment and death of thousands of innocents that Israel is causing. Period. There has to be a ceasefire and Nuttyahoo doesn't want it. I'm really done with this. I have never in my life seen the feeble attempts to justify the destruction of Gaza and its citizens. bye

[Arazi]

62. Please educate yourself on the details. They matter

That you’re ignorant of Hamas leadership forcing their human shields to stay in Northern Gaza indicates you aren’t getting any diversity of sources.

Here’s a Reuters article on Hamas telling its civilians to stay:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-tells-gaza-residents-stay-home-israel-ground-offensive-looms-2023-10-13/#:~:text=“We%20tell%20the%20people%20of,he%20told%20a%20news%20conference.

Here’s another where Hamas is actively blocking civilians/human shields who try to leave:
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/hamas-blocking-mass-evacuation-in-gaza-as-idf-urges-civilians-to-move-south/amp/

And fighting in a city is called “urban warfare”. No matter how much you want to ignore the fact that fighting is happening in civilian areas BECAUSE HAMAS WANTS THE FIGHT TO HAPPEN THERE, I promise you Israel doesn’t want that fight. No military chooses that unless there’s no other way to kill terrorists.

Lastly, it’s noted that your singular outrage is only aimed at Jews/Israel for what’s happening there and you have no record or posts expressing outrage at FAR WORSE deliberate massive slaughters of innocent civilians in cities like Aleppo, Darfur, Grozny etc.

Just Israel….

Just when Jews have to fight in urban areas….

[EX500rider]

2. Historic rate?

The amount of dead civilians in Gaza, a unknown number since Hamas reports their dead terrorists as "civilian's"
would be a rounding error on a bad day in the strategic bombing of Japan.

Just one raid on one day:

.....on the afternoon of 9 March 346 B-29s left the Marianas bound for Tokyo. They began to arrive over the city at 2:00 am Guam time on 10 March, and 279 bombers dropped 1,665 tons of bombs.[105] The raid caused a massive conflagration that overwhelmed Tokyo's civil defenses and destroyed 16 square miles (41 km2) of buildings, representing seven percent of the city's urban area.[106] The Tokyo police force and fire department estimated that 83,793 people were killed during the air raid, another 40,918 were injured and just over a million lost their homes; postwar estimates of deaths in this attack have ranged from 80,000 to 100,000

[RainWalker]

4. I think maybe you missed this part

While wartime death tolls will never be exact, experts say that even a conservative reading of the casualty figures reported from Gaza show that the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century.

[malaise]

12. Rec

Nothing justifies this response

[RainWalker]

13. Absolutely correct

[EX500rider]

51. A rounding error in this century also:

At least 940,000 people have been killed by direct war violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, and Pakistan. The number of people who have been wounded or have fallen ill as a result of the conflicts is far higher, as is the number of civilians who have died indirectly as a result of the destruction of hospitals and infrastructure and environmental contamination, among other war-related problems

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human

[Arazi]

7. Their lies just expose their anti-Israel bias

(anti-semitism?)

They know the younger Pro-Palestinian college idiots don’t know any better, while older idiots are happy to ignore the lies in their zeal to perpetuate their bullshit disinfo

[RainWalker]

16. Blaming young people isn't going to win us elections

[Arazi]

18. Where have I "blamed" young people?

I specifically said useful idiots falling for Kremlin propaganda are found in young and older populations

[RainWalker]

20. Here

Pro-Palestinian college idiots don’t know any better

[Arazi]

23. Oh look, you've selectively edited my post

The entire quote…

They know the younger Pro-Palestinian college idiots don’t know any better, while older idiots are happy to ignore the lies in their zeal to perpetuate their bullshit disinfo

[RainWalker]

29. No call for that

None.

Do better.

[Cha]

75. Take your own advice.

[RainWalker]

26. No I was simply illustrating

what I meant.
No reason to be snarky. We're friends here ❤️

[Sal_NV]

25. Why did you selectivly edit the post?

[RainWalker]

28. Illustrating what I saw

and what I meant.

[Sal_NV]

34. So you misrepresented what was actually posted?

That is selective editing of someone's words, which is dishonest on the face of it.

[Tomconroy]

3. If Hamas surrendered and freed that hostages

The killing would stop.

[RainWalker]

6. I'm not so sure

Given the violence and fighting we're seeing in the West Bank. I just want this to end completely, there's too many innocent lives being taken and it's very sad...

[Igel]

31. Not just surrendered.

Surrendered and turned themselves in.

Then there could be possible grounds for a 2-state solution.

[elias7]

86. Which Palestinians have rejected over and over and over and over and over

But at least they could surrender instead of maintaining a state of war. I guess when you’re winning the PR battle, what’s a few thousand lives?

[Beastly Boy]

5. Predictably, the article doesn't concern itself with identifying the nature of these casualties.

One of the belligerent parties in this conflict has declared as their strategic objective to cause as many casualties as possible among their own civilians. They used all the resources at their disposal to facilitate this objective.

The nature of this monstrous strategy implies unprecedented casualties among civilians, especially women and children.

Because of this, the conflict is, as far as I am aware, unique in the history of warfare. There is nothing to compare it to. Yet, I fully anticipate the mass media to keep making ridiculous attempts at comparative analysis of this conflict, with full awareness of the fundamental absurdity of their efforts.

[Eko]

74. And Israel then said

sure, we will help you with your strategic objective to cause as many casualties as possible among civilians.

[Beastly Boy]

78. Nobody consulted Israel.

For some reason, I suspect that Israel's preference would have been for Hamas to not invade Israel, not brutally rape, murder and mutilate 1700 Israelis and not take 260 of them hostage.

But you appear to disagree. Judging from your response, you probably think that Israel was a buddy-buddy partner with Hamas in planning and committing these atrocities. You must have reasons to think this. I wonder what they are. What could have possibly made you say such preposterous thing?

[Eko]

85. 1st

For some reason, I suspect that Israel's preference would have been for Hamas to not invade Israel, not brutally rape, murder and mutilate 1700 Israelis and not take 260 of them hostage.
I suspect the exact same thing.

But you appear to disagree. Judging from your response, you probably think that Israel was a buddy-buddy partner with Hamas in planning and committing these atrocities. You must have reasons to think this. I wonder what they are. What could have possibly made you say such preposterous thing?
I just agreed with you. You could try asking questions on what someone believes before guessing.
Like this. What could have possibly made you say such preposterous thing?
What preposterous thing that I said are you talking about?

2nd, you never really talked about my actual response.
One of the belligerent parties in this conflict has declared as their strategic objective to cause as many casualties as possible among their own civilians. and then I said Israel helped them achieve this strategic objective by killing a lot of civilians.
Do you disagree with this?

[David__77]

9. That's the basic strategy.

[RainWalker]

10. It sure is

[JustAnotherGen]

11. The pogrom in Israel

On October 7th was a historic act of terrorism.

Showdown at Big Sky.

[RainWalker]

17. It certainly was

[Goddessartist]

33. It's just horrific!

Nothing, absolutely nothing justifies this. It needs to stop.

[Lonestarblue]

39. Israel is killing more civilians than necessary because of the bombs they choose to use.

Here are three key paragraphs from the Times article that highlight Israel’s deliberate choice of 2,000 pound bombs compared with the 500 pound bombs that the US thought far too powerful to use in Iraq and other urban areas. It’s hard not to conclude that Israel is deliberately killing as many civilians as possible and destroying building in Gaza, perhaps with the aim of driving all Palestinians out, when they have lesser weapons available. That seems to be the plan for Netanyahu and his hard-right government.

“Israel’s liberal use of very large weapons in dense urban areas, including U.S.-made 2,000-pound bombs that can flatten an apartment tower, is surprising, some experts say.

“It’s beyond anything that I’ve seen in my career,” said Marc Garlasco, a military adviser for the Dutch organization PAX and a former senior intelligence analyst at the Pentagon. To find a historical comparison for so many large bombs in such a small area, he said, we may “have to go back to Vietnam, or the Second World War.”

In fighting during this century, by contrast, U.S. military officials often believed that the most common American aerial bomb — a 500-pound weapon — was far too large for most targets when battling the Islamic State in urban areas like Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria.”

[Arazi]

45. They're trying to collapse tunnels Hamas built under apartments

Hospitals, schools etc

But you know that 😒

[questionseverything]

77. The hostages are in the tunnels so collapsing them seems like a mistake

[Arazi]

79. Hamas is illegally using hostages as human shields

That seems like the “mistake”.

Defeating Hamas permanently is Israel’s primary goal. They’ve said that over and over.

I believe them.

Hamas needs to release ALL of the hostages and stop hiding in amongst innocent civilians and then the hostages and all other innocents would be safe(r)

[David__77]

80. It's not just the bomb size. It's also the penning in of non-combatants, allowing no way out.

It’s also the strategy of attacking housing, medical facilities, schools, and civilian infrastructure generally.

[Basic LA]

44. The more brutal the Occupation...

...the more brutal the Resistance. It's a never-ending horror cycle of tit-for-tat atrocities and fruitless historic blame games.
President Biden is right. The long-delayed two-state solution is our only hope.
Let's work toward a future when the only conflict between the independent nations of Israel and Palestine will be on the soccer pitch.

[EX500rider]

54. Of course the only force "occupying" Gaza since the Israeli's withdraw in 2005 is Hamas

But I agree Hamas is a brutal occupying force.

[Basic LA]

64. The rage is still very raw, with good reason.

We blame the effects rather than the cause. And the atrocities go on.

[rso]

53. Gaza

In spite of all the previous history of conflict and the tragedy befalling the people of Gaza, it is also undeniable that Israel’s reaction would not be taking place had Oct. 7 not taken place.

[William769]

56. They should rise up against Hamas.

Problem solved.

[Mountainguy]

63. Taking any numbers reported by Hamas with a huge grain of salt

Also nevermind that Hamas has never really had any problems with using women and children as suicide bombers.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

68. And here we have a new born member telling us how to behave. Welcome to DU, I hope. . . nt

[William769]

69. Don't hope to hard.

[W_HAMILTON]

67. Historic rate? Approximately 1,200 died in Israel in just one day.

October 7th, 2023, when Hamas started this war.

[Tomconroy]

76. This story has been widely debunked. It takes

Unverified casualty claims from hamas and compares them to UN verified civilian casualties in Ukraine which the UN admits are vastly undercounted. They are unable to get an accurate count in places like Mauripol.
and other occupied territories.

[Iggo]

81. But they're being killed by the good guys, so it doesn't count. (n/t)

[Crunchy Frog]

87. The real death toll in Ukraine is very different than the reported death toll.

Since there is no access to the occupied areas. In Mariupol, contact was lost within the first weeks, and no way to track real casualty numbers, but it's estimated that tens of thousands were killed in 3 months of russian bombing. That includes a theater that was being used as a bomb shelter by mainly women and children that was marked with the words "children" in russian, and was deliberately targeted. There's also no way to know how many civilians have been executed or tortured to death.

In the Chechen wars it's estimated that russia may have killed as many as 100,000 Chechens. So this level of killing is definitely not unprecedented in this century.

I have a problem with using the number of *documented* deaths in Ukraine, when most of the deaths there can't be documented, to try to downplay it in comparison with the deaths in Gaza, which are able to be documented reasonably accurately. I'm not trying to downplay the horrors in Gaza, I just don't want it to be used to downplay other horrors.