Bill Clinton: 'I killed myself to give the Palestinians a state'

[lapucelle]

At a 2016 campaign event for HRC:

“They were human beings in Gaza,” the audience member said.

“Yes, they were,” Clinton said. “And Hamas is really smart. When they decide to rocket Israel, they insinuate themselves in the hospitals, in the schools, in the highly populous areas, and they are smart.”

“I killed myself to give the Palestinians a state. I had a deal they turned down that would have given them all of Gaza,” Clinton said.

You can watch the video here.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/bill-clinton-palestinians-israel-223176

[Just_Vote_Dem]

1. Thank you. Facts are important.

[tritsofme]

2. Exactly, this is further proof these Palestinian leaders never had any intention of taking yes for an answer.

Then and now they are committed to the abolishment of the Jewish state.

What they rejected in 1948 and every year since is what they reject today.

President Clinton delivered them a path to everything they claimed to want, but instead responded with the dastardly terror and suicide bombing campaign of the Second Intifada.

[Jedi Guy]

55. It boggles my mind that people can't grasp that the Palestinians don't want a two-state solution and never have.

Oh, I'm sure some of them do, because no group of people is a monolith in terms of opinion. But broadly speaking, they don't want a two-state solution and never have. They want a one-state solution, meaning the eradication of Israel and all the land reverting to them to form a Palestinian state. They want to turn back the clock and undo the Nakba. How else can one explain why they've walked away from negotiations that gave them nearly everything they supposedly wanted?

So what's Israel to do with that? If the Palestinians are sitting down at the table with that opening position, is Israel supposed to start with, "Okay, crazy idea, but what if we continue to exist? Is that acceptable?" It's by no means a reasonable starting position for any kind of fruitful negotiations.

The Palestinians as a whole have to accept the reality that Israel isn't going anywhere and they're not going to get back all the land from before its creation. They need to give up the dream of "from the river to the sea."

Israel in its turn needs to rein in its settlers and pull them out of the West Bank as a first step as that's a continuing flashpoint, along with giving up enough good land that the Palestinians have a shot at being self-sufficient.

[PBateman70]

57. Look at it this way

Hypothetical.

Palestinians = Ukrainians

Israel is created = Russia invading and taking over half of Ukraine.

UN and others step in and propose a ceasefire/peace agreement. Russia keeps what they've gained in the invasion. Ukraine keeps what's left.

Now would you accept that if you were Ukrainian? I wouldn't.

[Patton French]

3. And history repeats itself

And denials continue.

[Rhiannon12866]

4. I remember. Jimmy Carter worked for peace in the region, too.

[BeyondGeography]

5. Bill's efforts were monumental

So was the growth of Israeli settler population on the West Bank during his time in office. It doubled, from 100k to 200k. The current number is five times as high as the early 90s.

Until Israelis and Palestinians want peace as badly as he did we’ll be spinning our wheels.

[nycbos]

6. HOW DARE YOU.

How dare you bring facts into this conversation.

[thesquanderer]

7. This is why I thought the attacks on TFG for saying Hamas is smart were ridiculous.

There are a zillion legit reasons to say TFG is awful... it just weakens your case when you bring up nonsense. Simply calling an adversary smart is not, in itself, problematic. And it was often being presented that way in critiques of TFG's comments.

(I understand there can be additional context, that he always praises dictators, etc., which one could argue may also come into play here. But in a lot of coverage, he was being lambasted merely for calling them smart, period.)

[Mysterian]

8. I remember those events and it was the only time I ever thought there was a chance for peace

When Arafat said "no" I knew the Palestinians had no intention of co-existing peacefully.

[yardwork]

9. Thanks for posting this.

Propaganda has created a fashionable and performative "peace movement" that threatens to re-elect Trump, and is based on a complete lack of understanding of the region's history.

[Sympthsical]

19. "Fashionable and performative"

Yep.

I’m home in the Midwest this week, talking to nieces and nephews in the 14-24 range.

They know what they hear on Tik Tok and other social media. They know what the algorithm brings up. They know the slogans and words and what they’re supposed to say.

Scratch the surface, and there’s no underlying knowledge. After ten minutes of listening to a particularly opinionated niece, I glanced at her parents and asked, “How much are you paying that college?”

She, quite literally, knows nothing about the situation or the history. Nothing. But she’ll tell you all about it, even if you didn’t ask. Sometimes especially if you didn’t ask.

I worry what this country will look like in the next 10-30 years with what social media are doing to us.

[yardwork]

22. My experience exactly with my youngest.

I don't want to sound like an old geezer, but wow. He doesn't read any print materials of any kind. No papers, no magazines, no books. He never watches the news, documentaries, or any kind of informational programming. He "learns" - if you can call it that - everything online, mostly on YouTube and his gaming sites.

He is a sitting duck for propaganda. I hear it in the offhand, casual "information" he mentions as gospel. Much of it is objectively false. He's gotten used to my challenging his statements and then doing a quick google, which usually refutes what he's said but is also a highly limited example of "research." He cares so little about the truth or falsity of his statements, he just shrugs and moves o to the next sound bite.

It makes me want to run screaming from the room. How can any democracy survive this?

[Sympthsical]

24. And they absorb it very, very easily

I was having lunch with my 14 year old niece, and I mentioned I might go to Starbucks after. Then she let loose with something about how they're boycotting Starbucks, because Starbucks supports the bad guys, and we can only support the good guys in the war in that other country.

What country is the war in? She has no idea. She literally could not say the word "Gaza" because she doesn't know it. Who are the good guys? Palestinians who attacked for freedom. Israel and Jews are using the Holocaust for sympathy.

She's four-fucking-teen.

That's what TikTok is doing. And that's on top of the skincare obsession, the eating disorder - oh yeah, they have to watch her eat now - and a host of other problems. I cannot believe they allow her on it. However, her entire social life and friends revolve around it. Cutting her out would be socially debilitating (my sister-in-law's logic).

Like, what the fuck is going on?!

So when I see these, "Youth think this about X! Take it seriously!"

No. I'll listen about student loans, economic problems, housing, discrimination, and a host of other things. But I absolutely will not listen to know-nothings about foreign policy. Non-starter. The minute I see, "Well, on TikTok, so and so said . . ." I've stopped listening.

So glad I'm childless.

[Jedi Guy]

56. Social media supports and amplifies the herd, or worse, the mob mentality.

That's how you end up with these crowds of teenagers who are super passionate about "the war in that other country" without being able to name it, let alone describe who the combatants are or why they're fighting. But by golly, all their friends sure are passionate about it and if they want to fit in, they'd better be as or more passionate. No one wants to be the outcast.

Humans are susceptible to peer pressure at any age, but children, teenagers, and young adults are incredibly susceptible to it. Having the strength of will and the courage of conviction to stand against the herd and say, "No, I disagree" is daunting for anyone, but especially for them.

It's even more daunting because they know as well as anyone that the person who stands their ground and says "No, I disagree" is instantly painted as the target for the mob. That person, as you've pointed out above, is an oppressor and must be destroyed, no matter the cost. They know this because they themselves have been part of the mob and felt the warm, smug glow of destroying those bad old oppressors.

Say what you will about his comedy or his beliefs, but when Dave Chappelle said, "I don't care, Twitter isn't a real place" I was glad someone finally had the stones to say it. It's equally applicable to TikTok.

[Rebl2]

29. I said basically

same thing the other day. They don’t read any newspapers (I started reading the paper in my teens-not just comics) watch the news, or as you say, informational programming. Heard recently (on the news) they get news from Tic toc and facebook.

[EllieBC]

10. Thanks for the reminder that none of

what Hamas has been pulling is new at all.

[Autumn]

11. Still breathing Bill. You can't come up with a solution to other nations problems when the leaders

of those two nations don't want a solution. Their hatred runs too deep. Obama thought he could do it Nuttyahoo shit all over him. Hate needs hate.

[wyldwolf]

12. Bill Clinton is usually the smartest person in the room, and he's right again.

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want the total eradication of Israel. Anyone defending Hamas is a party to that. If you're a progressive who will condemn neo-nazis one day but sympathize with Hamas the next, you're no better than they are.

Bill Clinton: "I killed myself trying to give the Palestinians a state. I had a deal they turned down. It would have given them all of Gaza, between 96 and 97% of the West Bank, compensating land in Israel... we had all the Muslim countries willing to normalize relations with Israel if they'd recognize the Palestinian state..."

Hamas and the Palestinians torpedoed it.

"And Hamas is really smart. When they decide to rocket Israel, they insinuate themselves in the hospitals, in the schools, in the highly populous areas, and they are smart. They said they try to put the Israelis in a position of either not defending themselves or killing innocents. They’re good at it. They’re smart. They’ve been doing this a long time.”

[Cha]

16. Welcome back, Wyldwolf

[wyldwolf]

21. why, thank you.

I grew tired of battling all the racist sexist incels in nerd groups.

[CincyDem]

27. Great history lesson - and let's not forget WHY Arafat torpedoed it...

...it would have required the Palestinians to abandon one of their founding core principles...elimination of the State of Israel and annihilation of all Jews worldwide. Hard to negotiate with a group when their singular goal is the Final Solution reincarnated.

Thanks for pulling up the full quotes.

[Cha]

34. Good we need you.

[wyldwolf]

39. Is this still a taboo subject on DU?

[Cha]

40. Don't know what subject

you mean?

But I guess you wouldn't want to take a chance and say it?

[wyldwolf]

41. Used to be...

the Israel-Palestine subject was forbidden except in a dedicated group.

[Cha]

42. Oh that subject.. It's allowed now since

the Hamas Murdering Rampage on Israelis on Oct 7th and the Israeli Hamas War began.

[yardwork]

30. This time, Hamas found fertile ground for their lies on social media.

It's much easier to dupe millions of people in minutes now.

[Camaromjr]

58. My Life

I strongly recommend that My Life by Bill Clinton be on everyone's reading list. These were some of the very best years for me personally and professionally. This read gives clarity to the memories and illustrates what a real President can accomplish. A generational mind.

[JudyM]

13. This alone would be a useful response to many condemning comments

[eissa]

14. This was a turning point for me

My sympathies had long sided with the Palestinians. I still do to some extent, and I still support a two-state solution. But Arafat’s all-or-nothing approach and constant moving of the goalposts showed that he wasn’t serious about an end to the conflict. And again, another chance for peace fell through.

“The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”

[MichMan]

35. Yet Arafat was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize

Anytime they announce the current recipients, that is the first thing I think of. They should have taken it back

[Happy Hoosier]

51. Plenty of people are anxious

To blame (((them))) for anything and everything.

[Cha]

15. Mahlao, lapucelle..

You are the best researcher. ::candle

[Raine]

17. Thanks for posting this. nt

[ecstatic]

18. I believe him, but the problem is what occurred prior to that

Imagine a similar scenario in this country -- the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people, and in response, the displaced Americans were offered a "great" consolation prize. Would that solve everything? Of course not.

[yardwork]

23. That is an oversimplification of what occurred in the past, though.

People keep trying to compare this situation to European conquest of the New World, which absolutely involved genocide, enslavement, and displacement. There are clear good guys and bad guys in that history.

The history of the Middle East is much more complicated. It's actually an example of Western hegemony to be imposing our history of bad behavior onto another part of the world. There's a lot of propaganda on social media promoting this over-simplified, inherently false interpretation.

[Sympthsical]

37. There is off the charts ethnocentrism

Part of the reductiveness of the ideology. Complicated situations surrounding different ethnicities, religions, and divisions in those religions get reduced to treating it like American racial problems. As if they're interchangeable things. Just plug in the groups. In this case, Jews are the white people and Palestinians are the non-white people.

And people say this upfront. Note how many times people will say the problem with Palestine is that it's "brown people" so no one cares. It's like, they do know Jews are similarly semitic yeah? You cannot reduce that conflict to white vs. brown, because such a dynamic does not exist in this case. These are not Americans.

It's like people who call AAPI "white-adjacent" and you almost break your own nose from the facepalm.

Although, I'll be honest. Watching the ethnocentric vision people keep putting out is kind of entertaining. Watching an ideology step on its own dick is always just the best.

[yardwork]

38. That cheered me up!

A bunch of masks have been removed and there's quite a bit more clarity now, I will say that. Ok, you made my day!

Watching the ethnocentric vision people keep putting out is kind of entertaining. Watching an ideology step on its own dick is always just the best.

[betsuni]

45. "Just plug in the groups. ... Jews are the white people and Palestinians are the non-white people."

Exactly, thank you! Bad. Good. The end.

[yardwork]

50. I thought of something else, too.

Another poster accused me of being American-centric, and I repeatedly stated that I am indeed American-centric about this, as my number one priority is to help re-elect President Biden.

I'm far from being an expert on middle eastern politics. I'm an American, living in the U.S., focused on helping to prevent a sick monster from being elected president again. It is the height of ethnocentrism to pretend that we know fuck-all about what's going on in Palestine and that it's somehow our job to "fix" it.

It's like calling the cops and health department on the neighbor down the street for his overgrown bushes while our house is on fire.

[Sympthsical]

54. But at least you're aware of it, you know?

I'll get along with anyone who is at least honest about their motivations in their thinking. But self-awareness is just not a thing in our culture.

I take the approach I do, because I do know the history, and I know the larger arc of European colonialism and Islamic history in the region that got us to where we are today. And my read of things remains the same - a genocide of Jews is always in the cards. Israel is going to go full ham defending themselves, and I don't blame them. The Arab states around them have been trying to genocide them from the word go.

That doesn't mean I support everything they do, and I acknowledge all of the problems of Netanyahu, Likud, West Bank settlers, etc. We gotta be honest about these things.

But putting an American read on the situation is terrible. And American racial issues are deceptively simple. Europeans showed up and fucked over all non-Europeans. Sometimes even other Europeans. There's no, "Well, Black people did bad things, too!" in our history. It was all European Americans. It is literally a very black and white problem we're still working through.

That is not that region. But the human brain loves patterns and applying lived experience. We see what American ethnic division is like, and our brain wants to see other ethnic conflicts in those terms. But our brains mislead us. When you get too used to seeing nails, you're always going to see nails and keep swinging a hammer at them, even if what you're actually looking at is a screw.

We all see things based on our experience and motivations. You're honest about yours. I think I'm pretty honest about mine. That's all one can ask. That self-awareness and keeping an eye out for the possibility our thinking or lens is slanted in some way. But there's no way that's going to happen writ large with people in general on this issue.

(Funny aside. I've long been one of those Biden for one term only people. Now with all this, I'm looking around and thinking, "I honestly do not know who I'd trust other than Biden with this issue right now." I just don't trust a lot of other options to not give in to the left-wing pressure we're seeing. I think a lot of lesser politicians would collapse out of simplistic political calculus)

[ecstatic]

44. I really want to understand. I really do

I agree that Israel's beginning wasn't as violent and disgusting as the USA's, but let's be clear, they did conquer Palestine with assistance from Britain and the UN, and Palestinians were displaced and forced into a small area that has continued to get smaller and smaller over the years.

The wonderful deal that Clinton cooked up was offered roughly 45 years in. Many of the people alive during the conquering/displacement were still alive. It's possible they were still angry and honestly, who wouldn't be?

Again, imagine if it were you being forced out, even if the ultimate intentions and reasons were noble, you're still going to feel some way about a violent eviction.

The past is the past and we can't change it, but in order to move forward and achieve stable peace--REAL peace in that region, there has to be an acknowledgement of how things began.

I've never heard anyone voice my solution but I really do think a one state, integrated solution is the only option left. There's not enough land left for Palestinians to live on with dignity and forcing them out again, in 2023, is unethical and inhumane. And, of course, reparations will need to be paid as well.

[yardwork]

49. It sounds like you are ready to hear more details.

I'm not the right person to provide details, but there are excellent books on the subject.

There is justifiable anger, grief and loss on all sides of this conflict. Neither Israel nor Palestine has always behaved wisely. But it's much more nuanced than one side "conquering" the other.

I urge you to read a reputable book on the history and not draw conclusions only from essays and posts you read online. There's a lot of propaganda out there and many people are unwittingly perpetuating it.

[JI7]

62. The area got smaller because they declared war on Israel multiple times

because they do not want any Jewish state to exist but Israel ended up winning those wars where they gained territory.

[Happy Hoosier]

52. And before that!?

The Palestinians could have had half of what is now modern Israel… the better half truth be told. They refused it, and attacked the Jewish villages, with the stated intent of wiping them out. They lost.

[Polybius]

25. Love Clinton to infinity, but I dunno about calling Hamas "smart" though

Trump got heat for calling Hezbollah that last month, and rightfully so.

White House condemns Trump for calling Hezbollah 'very smart' amid Israel-Hamas war

[yagotme]

26. One can call an evil entity "smart", without siding with them.

The Japanese were "smart" in WW2 when they tried to take out our entire Pacific fleet Dec 7. If our carriers had been sitting at Pearl, we would have been in a long, serious, world of hurt. The Germans were "smart" in 1940 when they bypassed the Maginot line in France, attacking through Belgium. The above statements don't mean I was on the side of the Axis.

[lapucelle]

28. I think the difference is that Clinton seemed to mean "smart" in a cunning, devious way

whereas Trump meant it in an admiring way.

Be that as it may, the Clinton video confirms that it has been long known that Hamas uses the people of Gaza as human shields by headquartering in and launching attacks from hospitals and schools, yet the media has largely played dumb about this for the past month.

Who benefits from the media playing dumb about the facts concerning Hamas's history and tactics?

Cui bono?

===================================

Top Secret Hamas Command Bunker in Gaza Revealed
And why reporters won’t talk about it
July 29, 2014

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed

===================================

Sources: Hamas leaders hiding in basement of Israel-built hospital in Gaza
Last update - 14:17 12/01/2009

https://web.archive.org/web/20090313095323/http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054569.html

====================================

While Israel held its fire, the militant group Hamas did not
By William Booth
July 15, 2014 at 6:31 p.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html

======================================

Hamas’ use of human shields in Gaza
TIME PERIOD: 2008 – 2014
THEMATIC AREA: Lawfare

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

[Happy Hoosier]

53. Well... their strategy is working..

… plenty of people on this board and across the country are now blaming Israel for a conflict Hamas started and for attacking locations Hamas picked precisely because they would result in heavy civilian casualties.

[Silent Type]

31. Don't think I'll ever understand all the dynamics involved over the decades. There are so many opinions.

. . . . . .U.S. President Bill Clinton brought Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) leader Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin together in 1993 to negotiate the agreement that came to be known as the Oslo Accords. In it, Israel officially recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and a partner in future negotiations, and the PLO renounced terrorism and recognized Israel's right to exist.

The deal raised expectations for a two-state solution. But it quickly began to unravel after a series of events, including a 1994 attack on a mosque in Hebron by an American Jewish settler and Rabin's assassination in 1995 by an Israeli settler opposed to the agreement. Almost immediately after the Oslo Accords were signed, Israel enhanced its policy of fragmenting Gaza from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, says Atalia Omer, a professor of religion, conflict and peace studies at the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame.

At the same time, Israeli settlements continued to proliferate in the West Bank — on occupied land that the Palestinians hoped would be part of their state.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/27/1208694837/two-state-solution-israeli-palestinian-conflict

[lapucelle]

32. Clinton's involvement (and the ongoing talks) went well beyond the Oslo Accords.

I think the deal he is talking about in the video concerns the Camp David summit.

[Silent Type]

33. Could be. But it's hard to finish an agreement when a citizen so opposed to the deal assasinates the leader.

[Darwins_Retriever]

36. Give them Texas

and create an agreement on supplying the US with oil at market prices.

[roamer65]

43. The deal died with Yitzhak Rabin, sadly.

[sjr2323]

47. Yes

People seem to forget when the killer is not an enemy.

[Camaromjr]

59. Rabin's Death Impacted the Clintons

Both Bill and Hillary were close friends to the Rabins. Clinton writes with wonderful emotion regarding this event and its impact on him, personally.

[betsuni]

46. K&R

[LeftInTX]

48. Hamas is MS-13 smart

[NotVeryImportant]

60. I beat you up, steal your land, feel a little bad about it, so I offer you a small portion back...

Then I act surprised, upset and indignant that you don't accept that "great deal."

LMAO!!!! People are crazy.

Racism really addles the brain.

[former9thward]

61. "People are crazy"

As is your version of history.