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PCIntern

(25,656 posts)
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:10 PM Nov 2023

So I'm going to put this concept to rest...

I am 70 years old. I was raised in a household where my father was a four-year combat veteran and my mother worked for the Navy department during World War II. I watched countless movies, TV shows, panel discussions, and other historical documentaries about this war, and I did not once, not once hear the phrase “innocent German civilians” or “innocent Japanese civilians“ and all I ever did hear about was how my father’s platoon was nearly wiped out four separate times, and completely destroyed once and he would’ve been among the dead except that he was kept behind the type the battalion list of dead and wounded. After the war, I heard all these lying German bastards who lived around the concentration camps who loudly proclaimed that they had absolutely no idea what was going on inside. And then it turned out that they did know, of course they did. In those days, nobody was buying that bullshit. People in the neighborhood work there, and the overwhelming smell of the charred flesh was unmistakable.

And one more thing: I remember my father telling me that the decision to drop the atomic bombs on Japan was certainly debatable from a moral standpoint, but he said that he and his company were being prepared for the invasion of Japan, and were told that, almost certainly they would all be killed as the older troops were going to be sacrificed for the beach head landing. If not for the atomic bombs, he said, he wouldn’t be here. So the rule of war is that some must die in order that others may live.

Israel didn’t start this, OK? They did not cross the border and massacre women and children and babies and civilian males. it was done to them, and the miscreants who did this need to be rooted out and destroyed, utterly and totally. 6 million Jews died in those camps and in the surrounding countryside, and it just is not, repeat not going to happen again, while the world watches, and tut, tut and cluck cluck’s about every other issue under the sun.

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So I'm going to put this concept to rest... (Original Post) PCIntern Nov 2023 OP
We are plagued by tv watching moralists. Tomconroy Nov 2023 #1
Thank you. CincyDem Nov 2023 #2
I don't wish to argue, but you need to clarify that you do NOT mean Japanese in US internment hlthe2b Nov 2023 #3
Of course not PCIntern Nov 2023 #6
Regardless of whether... 2naSalit Nov 2023 #11
I worked with a gal from California back in the MOMFUDSKI Nov 2023 #12
My grandmother's sister lived with us after her husband died. wnylib Nov 2023 #104
Okay TheRealNorth Nov 2023 #4
You are mistaken PCIntern Nov 2023 #7
I disagree TheRealNorth Nov 2023 #8
Feel free to disagree PCIntern Nov 2023 #22
Come up to 21st century ethics. You're still thinking WWll, the winner defines... brush Nov 2023 #24
21st century ethics got 1400 Jewish citizens massacred calguy Nov 2023 #101
Who's trying to get around it. Israel has the right to defend itself... brush Nov 2023 #114
Blaming Bibi doesn't excuse Hamas from being barbarians calguy Nov 2023 #115
No one is disagreeing that Hamas needs to go. You do understand that, right? brush Nov 2023 #117
Hundreds killed (maybe) to get two men who've plotted to kill thousands calguy Nov 2023 #119
The bombings of refugee camps is turning public opinion against Israel. brush Nov 2023 #120
I agree. And it's my 1st Amendment right to call it ludicrous. calguy Nov 2023 #121
So instead Diraven Nov 2023 #34
Accidental collarteral damage happens. Intentional collateral damage is... brush Nov 2023 #37
Courageous statement by Senator Murphy Army Brat Nov 2023 #97
Courageous from his safe home in the US? wnylib Nov 2023 #108
Not at risk like the Palestinians, of course Army Brat Nov 2023 #113
And if a gov't - say the US - decides to build munitions factories in lower-class areas erronis Nov 2023 #48
This message was self-deleted by its author Avalon Sparks Nov 2023 #58
All I ForgedCrank Nov 2023 #90
Please note. The winners determine who is charge with war crimes. brush Nov 2023 #5
I don't know what intelligence they have EndlessWire Nov 2023 #13
Killing hundreds of innocent refugees to get two Hamas operatives doesn't seem... brush Nov 2023 #25
I am sorry to raise this question AloeVera Nov 2023 #106
My guess: by monitoring communications. nt intrepidity Nov 2023 #118
If the command HQ is in a residential facility PCIntern Nov 2023 #14
There are rows and rows of tents, and two refugee camps have been bombed now. brush Nov 2023 #19
If the prison camp were positioned over a rocket PCIntern Nov 2023 #20
You're hopeless. We should learn from mistakes. What was done in WWll... brush Nov 2023 #23
Change that around to say bombing revmclaren Nov 2023 #29
Look up the Geneva Conventions. brush Nov 2023 #38
The articles have been posted here revmclaren Nov 2023 #42
See this. brush Nov 2023 #43
Wonderful and sincere opinion... revmclaren Nov 2023 #50
Not purety, impartiality...from a fellow '60s activist. brush Nov 2023 #60
And as for Egypt warning bibi about the revmclaren Nov 2023 #44
See this. There's such a thing as over-compensating for colossal failures... brush Nov 2023 #47
Hes not talking to me. revmclaren Nov 2023 #55
Gladly. I'm just giving you information that's obvious to many others. brush Nov 2023 #56
... revmclaren Nov 2023 #57
Whatever. Keep up the killing then. You know bibi and Mossad fucked up. brush Nov 2023 #61
Also look up: Firebombing of Dresden 4nic8em Nov 2023 #85
I'm hopeless? PCIntern Nov 2023 #68
I'm an advocate of impartiality and fairness to both sides. brush Nov 2023 #69
International law requires proportionality Army Brat Nov 2023 #96
Jfc it is legally and morally a refugee camp obamanut2012 Nov 2023 #128
Intentionally increasing the radicalization of a region and the world is not going to help. LightBright Nov 2023 #9
Well, apparently you never read Slaughterhouse Five. Chainfire Nov 2023 #10
The first half of your post is revisionist nonsense. BannonsLiver Nov 2023 #15
Are you going to disagree with a point or just throw rocks and run away? Chainfire Nov 2023 #17
Yes, yes, yes. Very well said. brush Nov 2023 #21
There is an old saying; "when you seek revenge, dig two graves" maxrandb Nov 2023 #26
Yes, that is a great concept PatSeg Nov 2023 #36
This is not revenge PCIntern Nov 2023 #54
As PCintern has said.........."This is not revenge" Stuart G Nov 2023 #72
K&R onecaliberal Nov 2023 #102
If they want to do that then its possible without bombing civilians. Eko Nov 2023 #84
Hamas rockets laugh at your DMZ. nt yagotme Nov 2023 #86
Sure, thats a problem to tackle. Eko Nov 2023 #87
Or do you think the rockets made from plumbing pipes from Hamas are too good? Eko Nov 2023 #88
Not quite sure which post to reply to, so I'll do it here. yagotme Nov 2023 #89
Yeah, I know how it works pretty well. Prob more than most people. Eko Nov 2023 #92
Well, I was using this definition of counter battery, the one I learned: yagotme Nov 2023 #94
Slaughterhouse Five was the first thing that came into my mind when reading the OP. progressoid Nov 2023 #105
Yeah. "So it goes." AloeVera Nov 2023 #124
I think some of the problem snowybirdie Nov 2023 #16
There is some good coverage of the soldier to soldier revmclaren Nov 2023 #35
Thanks snowybirdie Nov 2023 #95
so Israel's military and intel weren't able to stop the terrorists on their own soil bigtree Nov 2023 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author BootinUp Nov 2023 #27
Important issues in life are rarely black and white, but varying shades of gray. Are you under the Chainfire Nov 2023 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author BootinUp Nov 2023 #33
Lol TheRealNorth Nov 2023 #67
This message was self-deleted by its author BootinUp Nov 2023 #70
that sentiment right there is the reason why this shit will NEVER end Skittles Nov 2023 #41
This message was self-deleted by its author BootinUp Nov 2023 #46
my way or the highway Skittles Nov 2023 #51
The retaliatory concept that all Palestinians are PatSeg Nov 2023 #39
Well said bigtree TheRealNorth Nov 2023 #65
My father, who fought Nazis in WWII would beg to differ. The children and mothers trapped do not deserve this onecaliberal Nov 2023 #28
Gross Prairie Gates Nov 2023 #31
It was in the '70's, Summit, N.J. She was, maybe about 50 and she worked in the local movie theater, 3Hotdogs Nov 2023 #32
Horrifying experience. Did she have a tattoo? In the early 1950s when I was a toddler... Hekate Nov 2023 #66
No. she was a German citizen. Probably 10 years old or so. 3Hotdogs Nov 2023 #79
Ah, your friend was very young then. Hekate Nov 2023 #81
It can be argued that they did start this Warpy Nov 2023 #40
It baffles me why seemingly intelligent people radicalleft Nov 2023 #53
A lot of people just don't do nuance Warpy Nov 2023 #80
Kicking this to the Moon and back to Earth Hekate Nov 2023 #45
German and Japanese people still exist today IronLionZion Nov 2023 #49
Well said! n/t RKP5637 Nov 2023 #52
Thank You for posting this. I totally agree with you, PCIntern. Stuart G Nov 2023 #59
Here's what I find incencere about posts like this... radicalleft Nov 2023 #62
Hiding your politics behind the uniform..... TheRealNorth Nov 2023 #71
Yes claudette Nov 2023 #63
Absolutely TheRealNorth Nov 2023 #76
Absolutely and I'm sure to the innocents being killed it doesn't matter at all who started it. AloeVera Nov 2023 #125
War is Hell and rarely do we get the entire conglomeration of stories. GreenWave Nov 2023 #64
But can we also unite against haters of Palestinians? Diraven Nov 2023 #103
Yes, we killed Nazis, yagotme Nov 2023 #109
If there are haters of arabs and want them all dead GreenWave Nov 2023 #116
Since those days, other things have come to light Warpy Nov 2023 #73
Hiroshima was a manufacturing center, yagotme Nov 2023 #98
With the war in Europe over, Stalin was shifting his army to the east Warpy Nov 2023 #112
IIRC, Japan and Russia fought for 2 more weeks AFTER yagotme Nov 2023 #123
Please, Please, Please, and Please read Post Number 72. I have tried to explain how historical events are..VERY, VERY Stuart G Nov 2023 #74
Read and Rec'd revmclaren Nov 2023 #77
Please correct me if i am wrong... TheRealNorth Nov 2023 #78
NO, That does not....sum it up. Stuart G Nov 2023 #82
So a few things.... TheRealNorth Nov 2023 #83
Rec. nt LexVegas Nov 2023 #75
You may have seen my father over there. He woke screaming a few times a month for Maru Kitteh Nov 2023 #91
K&R Arazi Nov 2023 #93
The people of Gaza need to realize that Hamas is their ENEMY. world wide wally Nov 2023 #99
You nailed it. republianmushroom Nov 2023 #100
Yeah, looks like you really put this to rest. progressoid Nov 2023 #107
"I did not once hear the phrase 'innocent German civilians' or 'innocent Japanese civilians'." WHAT? NCIndie Nov 2023 #110
Hitler ruled Germany legally and with consent of Germans, no honest person is saying the same for Hamas uponit7771 Nov 2023 #111
So your contention is that the rulers have PCIntern Nov 2023 #122
No, not my contention ... Terrorist groups usually don't have constituents maybe zealots uponit7771 Nov 2023 #126
Word games. PCIntern Nov 2023 #127
Reality uponit7771 Nov 2023 #130
My dad was one of those Tree Lady Nov 2023 #129
 

Tomconroy

(7,611 posts)
1. We are plagued by tv watching moralists.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:15 PM
Nov 2023

They grew up never having their lives or their homes threatened by evil. They can sit at home in front of their computers and think how just they are, tut tutting about people defending their country. Just what the world needs: computer monitor moralists.

CincyDem

(6,419 posts)
2. Thank you.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:19 PM
Nov 2023

I'm only a few years behind you. My father spent his WWII time in the US Navy and before that the British Merchant Marine. Sounds like the old guys would have gotten along famously. Maybe they're somewhere playing cards as we speak.

When we say Never Again...so many folks today have no real appreciation for what that means. The statistic that always shocks me is that there are fewer Jews globally today than in 1940 at the start of Hitler's final solution. And still - that ain't good enough for Hamas. Amazing that a group that openly promotes genocide in their charter with a stated goal to eradicate all Jews - globally - still finds support.

Anyway I digress.

To our fathers...

hlthe2b

(102,560 posts)
3. I don't wish to argue, but you need to clarify that you do NOT mean Japanese in US internment
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:22 PM
Nov 2023

camps. Living as I am not all that distant from Camp Amache in SE Colorado--as well as several smaller ones-- that I assisted in petitioning (successfully) for NPS recognition, this is a very important point to me.

Just want you to be clear... I understand where you are going, but there are innocents in every conflict. War and the deadly consequences, however justified, do not change that.

And yes, my father and four deceased uncles all fought in WWII--split between Europe and the Pacific. Those who survived the war refused to talk about it. The last told me right before he died that there was one reason for that and one reason only and it was not humility, it was guilt for those they killed. Whether that included civilians is a question that I spared him from answering, but he was a bomber pilot, and undoubtedly the answer was yes.

PCIntern

(25,656 posts)
6. Of course not
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:30 PM
Nov 2023

They were Americans and as loyal as anyone here, or more so if you want to allow for the American Nazis

MOMFUDSKI

(5,811 posts)
12. I worked with a gal from California back in the
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:49 PM
Nov 2023

mid eighties. She was white and married to a Japanese man. She told me how poorly treated they were in California! Had to quit a bowling league due to being shunned. This was 40 years after the War! Old prejudices die hard or don’t die at all.

wnylib

(21,795 posts)
104. My grandmother's sister lived with us after her husband died.
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 01:00 PM
Nov 2023

She was 6 when her family came to the US from Germany 24 years before the first World War. During WWI, she was a US citizen, married, with 2 young American born children. She was fluent in English, but had a slight German accent since it was her first language.

During WWI, when she tried to take her toddler sons to a park, she and the children had rocks thrown at them and were spit on. After that, she kept the children home, but experienced the same kind of treatment when she went shopping by herself, so her American born Scottish-American husband went with her whenever she was in public or shopped for her from a list that she gave him.



TheRealNorth

(9,500 posts)
4. Okay
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:24 PM
Nov 2023

But what you are advocating now is "collective punishment". That is today now widely regarded as a War Crime.

I urge you to turn from this dark path and step into the light.

PCIntern

(25,656 posts)
7. You are mistaken
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:32 PM
Nov 2023

If a governmental entity build a war plant in a residential area, that area become susceptible to harm. That is why it is called war. It is a war, not a boxing match.

brush

(53,978 posts)
24. Come up to 21st century ethics. You're still thinking WWll, the winner defines...
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 03:48 PM
Nov 2023

Last edited Fri Nov 3, 2023, 02:10 PM - Edit history (1)

who is tried for war crimes. Thank God most have moved past that and regard bombing refugee camps as inhumane. If enemy operations are suspected it's up to the opposing forces to figure out how to neutralize them, and it's certainly not bombing the shit out of the camp no matter how many innocent refugees are killed.

Israel's Mossad is supposed to be great. They should have operatives there to recon where the Hamas operations are so as to let ground forces/special forces know where they are. Air striking civilians should absolutely be off limits.

I say Mossad should have operatives there but they completely blew Oct. 7 all together. Bibi was warned by Egypt but disregarded/ignored it. Now it seems they're overcompensating for their colossal failure by doing this overkill bombing.

brush

(53,978 posts)
114. Who's trying to get around it. Israel has the right to defend itself...
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 02:16 PM
Nov 2023

but 8000+ innocent civilian Palestininan lives in retaliation seems to be Bibi and Likud overkill because they fucked up colossally by not detecting the Oct. 7 attacks before hand and doing what was needed to stop it.

calguy

(5,351 posts)
115. Blaming Bibi doesn't excuse Hamas from being barbarians
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 02:25 PM
Nov 2023

They need to be eliminated. Then they can deal with Bibi.
It's kind of ludicrous, in my opinion, for us sitting halfway around the world with barely a basic knowledge of all the factors involved, and tell the Jewish people what they should or should not do after 1400 of their people were massacred for no other reason than they were Jews.
That being said, I can understand why you and others might disagree with me. We're all free to express our opinions on the DU boards, as we should. But let's not lose sight of the fact that all we have are opinions, which are as worthless as trump crypto currency.

brush

(53,978 posts)
117. No one is disagreeing that Hamas needs to go. You do understand that, right?
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 02:40 PM
Nov 2023

But bombing of two refugee camps is grossly inhumane. They're in refugees camps because they're seeking safety from the war, and then the get bombed? How is that any less inhumane than what Hamas did on Oct. 7?

An Israeli spokesman conceded that they killed two Hamas operatives in the two bombings. But hundreds of civilian casualties resulted. That of course is hugely out of balance. Hundreds killed/injured to get two men?

Do the math, that's nothing but inhumane too, and will resulted in a recycling of violence as the victims whose parents or relatives were killed, will become radicalized to hate Israel for the killings.

It makes no sense for the over-retaliation as it just assures cycle of violence will continue into the future.

calguy

(5,351 posts)
119. Hundreds killed (maybe) to get two men who've plotted to kill thousands
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 03:19 PM
Nov 2023

And will plot to kill thousands more. Don't ask me to justify it, this is war.
I'll repeat my previous statement that it's ludicrous for us to be sitting halfway around the world with limited knowledge and tell these people what to do.
And by the way, I do respect your opinion.

brush

(53,978 posts)
120. The bombings of refugee camps is turning public opinion against Israel.
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 03:39 PM
Nov 2023

It's a poor decision by IDF commanders as way to ferret out Hamas...as witnessed by the demonstrations against them going on in cities around the world.

Protesting against grievances is a long-held way to voice opinions against injustice, it's not ludicrous. In fact, it's part of our First Amendment.

calguy

(5,351 posts)
121. I agree. And it's my 1st Amendment right to call it ludicrous.
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 03:55 PM
Nov 2023

We all have our options. In the end, that's all they are, opinions. Worth less than a trump university degree.
I have no beef with you, I'm just expressing my First Amendment right to disagree with you.
Have a wonderful day.

brush

(53,978 posts)
37. Accidental collarteral damage happens. Intentional collateral damage is...
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:44 PM
Nov 2023

that can be avoided is war crime-adjacent, it not it all together. The Geneva Conventions ratified in 1949 protect non-combatants.

Also this:
Sen. Chris Murphy with a newsy statement on Israel —

“It's time for Israel's friends to recognize that the current operational approach is causing an unacceptable level of civilian harm and does not appear likely to achieve the goal of permanently ending the threat from Hamas.”

wnylib

(21,795 posts)
108. Courageous from his safe home in the US?
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 01:08 PM
Nov 2023

You might agree with him. You might believe that his position is a moral one. But I don't think that courageous applies.

 

Army Brat

(151 posts)
113. Not at risk like the Palestinians, of course
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 02:11 PM
Nov 2023

But I don't see why he shouldn't be credited for taking a position on their behalf with some political risk for himself.

erronis

(15,470 posts)
48. And if a gov't - say the US - decides to build munitions factories in lower-class areas
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:04 PM
Nov 2023

Is that a fault?

And if we allow industrial corporations to build important energy infrastructure in areas that aren't high-class, predominately white, then when these infrastructures are targeted by enemy attacks - shouldn't that bere considered as harming the residents of these areas?

Wonder if that is what's motivating a lot of wealthy folks to buy land in the less-populated and mountainous areas. Even huge enclaves in New Zealand. They know when their policies of denying climate disaster, pollution, over-population come to fruition, they'll have a fairly secure place - perhaps for a few years or decades. On The Beach.

Response to erronis (Reply #48)

ForgedCrank

(1,787 posts)
90. All I
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 11:20 PM
Nov 2023

have to say is that if Hamas took control of the area I live in, knowing the consequences, I'd much rather die trying to eliminate them myself than from the bombs that I knew were coming from those with the means to do so.
Israel has an absolute duty to it's citizens, and the path is not always pretty when one is in their situation.
Quite frankly, there should be a full-on civil war in Gaza right now, and Hamas operatives should be far too busy dealing with a local uprising than to even be concerned with the response from Israel. Those bastards should be afraid to come out of the shadows in their own neighborhoods right about now. But I see nothing on that front. Zero.
And yes, I know there are surely at least some innocent people, that is what makes war so ugly, and it is why Hamas should have been far more interested in avoiding it instead of instigating it, AGAIN

brush

(53,978 posts)
5. Please note. The winners determine who is charge with war crimes.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:27 PM
Nov 2023

German losers were the ones tried at Nuremberg. If the allies had lost, things would most likely have been reversed.

What's so out of balance here is blatant, and I'll be frank, the obvious over-retaliation. Israel should of course retaliate/defend itself against Hamas' attacks, but come on...bombling refugee camps...?

Where are war refugees supposed to go but refugee camps. Bombing them is war crime-adjacent, if not there.

EndlessWire

(6,578 posts)
13. I don't know what intelligence they have
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:51 PM
Nov 2023

or whether it's true (no one here does,) but they said they bombed the camp to kill one Hamas guy, which they did. And then they came back to bomb another guy, which also killed that one. These were guys who were leaders.

Maybe Hamas should not shelter with the civilian population. But, I dunno. I also think that Hamas should let the hostages go.

The heads of Hamas don't live in Palestine. They call the shots from Qatar, and other places outside of Gaza. So, they don't care about the Palestinians, and they have nothing to lose. MFers.

brush

(53,978 posts)
25. Killing hundreds of innocent refugees to get two Hamas operatives doesn't seem...
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 03:53 PM
Nov 2023

overkill and over-retaliation for colossal intel failures to you?

We are now officially in bizarro world. Sounds like war crimes to me though.

How about we try being impartial and fair to each side? You know, being humane.

AloeVera

(1,045 posts)
106. I am sorry to raise this question
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 01:04 PM
Nov 2023

I'm not familiar with the sophisticated level of intelligence that Israel has, maybe others have more insight.

But how does the IDF know, and claim with certainty, the senior Hamas leader(s) were killed in the bombings on the refugee camp?

I mean just the logistics of determining that seems a little farfetched or dubious given the situation on the ground.

PCIntern

(25,656 posts)
14. If the command HQ is in a residential facility
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:53 PM
Nov 2023

Then it’s a target and you can blame the builders

And those are permanent structures, not tents. I am tired of hearing this being described as a “refugee camp” those are concrete buildings that blew up. Where I come from a refugee camp is a bunch of lean-to’s and tents.

brush

(53,978 posts)
19. There are rows and rows of tents, and two refugee camps have been bombed now.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 03:18 PM
Nov 2023

I don't care who they think is in the refugee camps besides the multitudes of refugees, it's up to the IDF to figure out another way to get suspected Hamas oferatives...special forces, ground troops, I don't care, but air strikes into innocent refugees...you can't be serious.

That would be like bombing prison camps in WWll...it just was not done. There are rules of war...you treat prisoners and refugees humanely.

Like I said, the winners determine who gets charged with war crimes. This war isn't over yet but it's easy to tell where you stand. The worldwide protests against the over-retaliation with the bombings tells another story.

How about some impartiality, being fair to both side.?

PCIntern

(25,656 posts)
20. If the prison camp were positioned over a rocket
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 03:22 PM
Nov 2023

Manufacturing facility, oh it would be bombed. The alternative would be that dozens of rockets would fall on your civilian population with no hope of stopping their production. Which, by the way, is exactly what Hamas does and that’s also why if you send fuel to Gaza, much of it will probably be placed into rocket motors. It’s enough.

brush

(53,978 posts)
23. You're hopeless. We should learn from mistakes. What was done in WWll...
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 03:35 PM
Nov 2023

Japan, even Vietnam (my lai) against civilian areas is not accepted now. Bombing civilians in refugee camps? Come on...there are/will be negative consequences. The worldwide protest againt it should tell you that.

It's blatant over-retaliation.

revmclaren

(2,579 posts)
29. Change that around to say bombing
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:21 PM
Nov 2023

Hamas military targets using innocent Palestinians as human shields and your meme changes meaning.

Military targets will be attacked. Innocents will die, this can be immediately remedied by Hamas evacuating civilians from their bases.

My prediction... after the ground offensive winds down and independent inspectors examine the aftermath and Hamas' destroyed infrastructure, and after they interview hundreds if not thousands of civilians, the truth will come to light.

It may be the supporters of Israel were right in their judgement, it may be the antiwar people who will be proven right or it may be a combination of both.

It may be debated for decades to come. But what is a fact is Hamas has stated publicly on various media outlets that it will continue to attack Israel as long as Israel exists and that they cannot be trusted with any ceasefire since they are the ones who broke a ceasefire to brutality torture and murder innocent children, women and men.

'Never again' is part of Israel's doctrine and is deeply ingrained in their culture. Millions of dead over the centuries will do that to a culture.

They didn't initiate this, but sure as hell will finish it.

My eldest daughter and her husband are Jewish, so I understand the fear and anger they feel now because of the extremists world wide.

I stand with Israel. I stand with my daughter, and I stand with the families of the victims of Hamas.


brush

(53,978 posts)
38. Look up the Geneva Conventions.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:47 PM
Nov 2023

Over-retaliation because of colossal intel failures/and or Bibi ignoring warnings from Egypt is pretty obvious here.

revmclaren

(2,579 posts)
42. The articles have been posted here
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:56 PM
Nov 2023

many times.

Legitimate military targets where civilians lose their lives is not a war crime.

Using civilians as human shields or building military bases imbeded in civilian population or hospitals is a war crime.

But you know this by now.

brush

(53,978 posts)
43. See this.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:57 PM
Nov 2023

Sen. Chris Murphy with a newsy statement on Israel —

“It's time for Israel's friends to recognize that the current operational approach is causing an unacceptable level of civilian harm and does not appear likely to achieve the goal of permanently ending the threat from Hamas.”

revmclaren

(2,579 posts)
50. Wonderful and sincere opinion...
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:07 PM
Nov 2023

Has no sway in another's government military operation.

My heart aches for the innocent.

Hamas can only be destroyed through force, not flowers in gun barrels.

And I was a peace sign carrying, bell bottom anti war teen.

So dont lecture me on purity.



brush

(53,978 posts)
60. Not purety, impartiality...from a fellow '60s activist.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:21 PM
Nov 2023

It's time to stop bombing. Try special forces/land forces to get Hamas operatives. Too many innocent, non-combatants being killed.

revmclaren

(2,579 posts)
44. And as for Egypt warning bibi about the
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:59 PM
Nov 2023

coming attack, is not get out of jail card for Hamas.

And not listening to the warning was incredibly stupid and or inept...not a war crime.

brush

(53,978 posts)
47. See this. There's such a thing as over-compensating for colossal failures...
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:04 PM
Nov 2023

talking to you Mossad and Bibi.

Sen. Chris Murphy with a newsy statement on Israel —

“It's time for Israel's friends to recognize that the current operational approach is causing an unacceptable level of civilian harm and does not appear likely to achieve the goal of permanently ending the threat from Hamas.”

revmclaren

(2,579 posts)
55. Hes not talking to me.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:14 PM
Nov 2023

You are talking to me. And find it truly offensive for you to equate me with bibi.
How appalling.

Do not interact with me again.

If you do, I'll only reply with

You'll know what it means.

brush

(53,978 posts)
56. Gladly. I'm just giving you information that's obvious to many others.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:17 PM
Nov 2023

It's time to stop the overkill.

brush

(53,978 posts)
61. Whatever. Keep up the killing then. You know bibi and Mossad fucked up.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:25 PM
Nov 2023

Retaliate for Oct. 7, yes. Blatant overkill, no.

PCIntern

(25,656 posts)
68. I'm hopeless?
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:45 PM
Nov 2023

I deleted my response to you because you would undoubtedly alert on it. I don’t feel like getting into that.

obamanut2012

(26,188 posts)
128. Jfc it is legally and morally a refugee camp
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 11:54 PM
Nov 2023

Refugees don't have to be walled with canvas.

This new talking point some of y'all have on here lately that these actual refugee camps aren't refugee camps is a bad look. It isn't the flex you think it is.

They are refugee camps.

 

LightBright

(71 posts)
9. Intentionally increasing the radicalization of a region and the world is not going to help.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:35 PM
Nov 2023

No side of this is going to be a victor. No side of this conflict will be eliminated. All involved will be hated more from one place or another. More and lasting death is guaranteed.

 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
10. Well, apparently you never read Slaughterhouse Five.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:43 PM
Nov 2023

The bombing campaigns in Europe were horrible, targeting city centers was wrong then; it was terrorism on an industrial scale. Carpet bombing cities wasn't effective in curtailing the war effort until the last few months of the war after the armies had been beaten. Production in Germany rose until the final few months of the war when Russia was knocking on the back gate and the other allies on the front. First of all, we bombed the wrong damn targets! Of course, the winners want to forget all of that, and there aren't many Americans alive to day who knows the truth or gives a rats ass; but some of us do. We should try to learn from our past mistakes and not use them to justify unhumane activities today.

No rational person would ever justify what Hamas did and the people who planned and executed the action should have to pay the ultimate penalty. However their barbarous actions do not give license for repayment in the same coin. Atrocity in revenge is still atrocity. No amount of history or politics will ever convince me that there is justification for targeting, or ignoring the presence civilians, carpet bombing of their homes, destruction of the life sustaining infastructure or murdering children. None of those actions will lead to peace, but it will gurantee that Hamas or their successor will be able to recruit terrorist for the next 100 years.







 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
17. Are you going to disagree with a point or just throw rocks and run away?
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 03:01 PM
Nov 2023

Apparently you haven't read extensively on the subject; I am up for a challenge, but not to name calling.

maxrandb

(15,401 posts)
26. There is an old saying; "when you seek revenge, dig two graves"
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 03:54 PM
Nov 2023

I am sure I didn't get it quite right, but it seems pretty relevant.

PatSeg

(47,768 posts)
36. Yes, that is a great concept
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:41 PM
Nov 2023

that apparently too few people get. Seeking justice is one thing, but revenge will only create more of the cruelty and hardships.

Another great quote was from Gandhi: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

We still have so much to learn as a species.

PCIntern

(25,656 posts)
54. This is not revenge
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:13 PM
Nov 2023

This is to ensure that this doesn’t happen again WHICH HAMAS HAS SWORN TO DO.

if it were to happen again, then what? “Measured response”??

Stuart G

(38,458 posts)
72. As PCintern has said.........."This is not revenge"
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:57 PM
Nov 2023

Israel didn’t start this, OK? They did not cross the border and massacre women and children and babies and civilian males. it was done to them, and the miscreants who did this need to be rooted out and destroyed, utterly and totally.

"ISREAL DIDN'T START THIS"............YES....ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY TRUE......................
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is far more complicated than the start of this.............................So, If someone doesn't know the start of
something, then that someone needs to read and understand some more information........................................

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Let us say that someone doesn't know about World War 2, and that someone says..
.Great Britain & Russia started that war and Japan had nothing to do with World War 2.
And that same person knows nothing about Adolph Hitler.


So how do you inform that person that there was a complicated start to World War 2, and you have to read a whole lot
about the beginning of World War 2, to understand it all. .......................................................

IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE ISREAL WAR, YOU HAVE TO READ A ....WHOLE LOT ABOUT THE CREATION OF
ISREAL....AND THE PREVIOUS HISTORY OF ISREAL, AND THE WARS IT FOUGHT IN.........................

HERE IS WHY.......YOU CANNOT KNOW TODAY'S EVENTS, AND CAUSES FOR TODAY'S EVENTS,.........WITHOUT KNOWING
THE HISTORY AND THE EVENTS LEADING UP TO TODAY.

..........THE MIDDLE EAST, ISREAL, AND ALL OF THE ARAB STATES, HAVE A VERY COMPLICATED AND EXTENSIVE
HISTORY LEADING UP TO THIS PRESENT WAR............................................IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS SOMEONE
SAYING THAT GREAT BRITAIN AND RUSSIA PURPOSELY STARTED WORLD WAR 2, WITHOUT KNOWING ANYTHING AT
ALL ABOUT ADOLPH HITLER AND WHAT GERMANY DID TO START THE WAR.......................................................

...............................................I'VE STUDIED HISTORY AND TAUGHT IT FOR 28 YEARS IN THE CHICAGO PUBLIC
..............................................SCHOOLS, AND LET ME TELL YOU, THAT KNOWING ABOUT THIS AND TEACHING
...............................................THIS IS VERY COMPLICATED AND DIFFICULT. ...SO,,,,,,,,,,,.............................

IF YOU THINK YOU CAN KNOW THE WHOLE STORY OF THE CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST INVOLVING ISREAL
AND ARAB STATES IN JUST AN HOUR, THEN YOU ARE AS STUPID AS........................ .DONALD TRUMP...........
AND NOT WILLING TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT A VERY SERIOUS ISSUE GOING ON TODAY...IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

Eko

(7,423 posts)
84. If they want to do that then its possible without bombing civilians.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 08:09 PM
Nov 2023

Just create a DMZ (demilitarized zone) just like in Korea. Gaza is 41 km, the Korean border is 250 km. Its totally doable. We would help them do it, the UN would help them do it, probably some Arab countries would help do it. Why are they not doing that to stop it from happening again?
Eko.

Eko

(7,423 posts)
87. Sure, thats a problem to tackle.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 11:03 PM
Nov 2023

An easy way to take care of that is to increase the iron dome which would be included in creating the DMZ. Those are dumb rockets and the only reason they are hitting is not enough counter batteries. Easy fix buddy.

yagotme

(3,037 posts)
89. Not quite sure which post to reply to, so I'll do it here.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 11:18 PM
Nov 2023

Know how Iron Dome works? Radar picks up missile launch, fires a missile at it. Which means, you need a missile for every Hamas missile. I'm sure the price point alone is/would be staggering. And, every missile has to hit it's target (doesn't always happen). Counter battery? That's what Israel HAS been doing. Hamas launches missiles from residential areas, Israel responds, the world blames Israel for bombing residential areas. Quality of Hamas missiles? Poor. That's why some of them land in Gaza, and gets blamed on Israel. And, when Israel DOES knock down a missile, it doesn't just magically disappear. Parts/large sections can fall to earth, landing in Gaza or Israel, causing damage/death. Again, Israel is blamed.

Eko

(7,423 posts)
92. Yeah, I know how it works pretty well. Prob more than most people.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 11:30 PM
Nov 2023

Would the price point be more staggering than the loss of Israel and Palestinian life? Do you know what the hit rate of a AIM120? .82. So almost 1 to 1. A counter battery as I am talking about is stopping the missiles fired from Hamas, not hitting the launch site. That is a different type of missile. Ive yet to see the world blame Israel for bombing missile sites, feel free to provide that. Yes, some misfired missiles from Hamas misfire and fall on Gaza and people blame them on Israel, so what? In what world do you think missile misfires and or debris would equal what is happening now? Are you serious? Let me know how many people have died from that. What? 500? According to Hamas? Are you now taking their word for it? Be sensible.

yagotme

(3,037 posts)
94. Well, I was using this definition of counter battery, the one I learned:
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 12:03 AM
Nov 2023
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-battery_fire

Counter-battery fire (sometimes called counter-fire) is a battlefield tactic employed to defeat the enemy's indirect fire elements (multiple rocket launchers, artillery and mortars), including their target acquisition, as well as their command and control components. Counter-battery arrangements and responsibilities vary between nations but involve target acquisition, planning and control, and counter-fire. Counter-battery fire rose to prominence in World War I.

Counter-battery radar detects incoming indirect fire and calculates its point of origin. That location data can be sent by a communications link to friendly forces, who can then fire on the enemy positions, hopefully before they can reposition (the "scoot" part of shoot-and-scoot tactics). Counter-RAM systems track incoming rocket, artillery, and mortar fire and attempt to intercept and destroy the projectiles or provide early warning to the target are


YOUR definition, IS Iron Dome.

Hit ratio of .82 for AIM120. Iron Dome missile, 2012, rated at .9. That means for every 100 Hamas missiles, 10 gets through. How many missiles does Hamas fire in a week? EVERY week?

Ive yet to see the world blame Israel for bombing missile sites

Hamas/friends launch rockets from civilian areas, disappear into their tunnels, Israel bombs site, and Israel is blamed for bombing civilian area. This board has been going back and forth on this general topic since the 7th. Did you miss all that?

Yes, some misfired missiles from Hamas misfire and fall on Gaza and people blame them on Israel, so what?

So what? Other than blaming Israel for genocide/civilian deaths/bombing hospitals? World opinion started taking a dive after the hospital event, until it was found that it wasn't an Israeli device. Must have missed that one, too.

In what world do you think missile misfires and or debris would equal what is happening now? Are you serious?

Yes, I'm serious. Tell Hamas to quit launching missiles, attacking Israeli civilians, let the hostages go, and then we'll see what happens. If that happens, then Israel has no real reason to invade/bomb Gaza now, do they. Like a drunk in a bar fight, they keep swinging, even when they don't have a chance, and keep getting knocked to the ground, because, reasons, masculinity, dogma, whatever. Hamas has vowed to destroy Israel, at ALL costs. Including their civilian population. If you haven't figured that out by now, I don't know what else to say.

snowybirdie

(5,252 posts)
16. I think some of the problem
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 02:59 PM
Nov 2023

is we're not seeing soldiers fight soldiers. That's acceptable war. But when it looks like one side has all the weapons and using them against civilians, it colors perceptions. One side looks like the bully. Of course, this conflict is so much more complicated and Hamas uses propaganda to its advantage. I hate it and feel so helpless as innocents on both sides bear the brunt of the hate between both parties. So very sad.

revmclaren

(2,579 posts)
35. There is some good coverage of the soldier to soldier
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:38 PM
Nov 2023

Battles broadcast on YouTube.

I listened to some coverage yesterday and the battle between Hamas and Israel Is brutal.

Edit...

Heavy fighting visible in Gaza.

https://www.youtube.com/live/9xOcL1bODmw?si=RPy7GAJigrQ2VvRd

Sky News...

?si=HksJgKMMm71Ht6_6



bigtree

(86,020 posts)
18. so Israel's military and intel weren't able to stop the terrorists on their own soil
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 03:09 PM
Nov 2023

...mass murderers who wantonly massacred civilians.

But, in this analogy of yours, Palestinian refugees, half of them children, had knowledge and ability that made them complicit and able to affect them like you've intimated German citizens surrounding the concentration camps were complicit in those atrocities.

I'm always perplexed by arguments which regard citizens living under a dictatorial rule as complicit or to be considered collateral casualties in any reprisal against that oppressive rule.

Here in the U.S., we're not strangers, as you recalled, to retaliatory violence against civilian populations, including our dropping of nukes on cities to persuade the nation of Japan to surrender.

But this conflict is more analogous to how we bombed the civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan into the Middle Ages as retaliation against 9-11 terrorists who also hid in caves and tunnels for years as we reduced the cities to shards with our catapults and fostered new generations of myriad numbers of individuals aggravated to resistant violence against the U.S. and our allies and interests.

Let's make clear what Pres. Biden has expressed is in OUR nation's interest in this conflict:

to summarize the WH positions:


-Israel has a responsibility to protect the lives of innocent people in Gaza

-Even as Hamas is hiding behind civilians, Israel has a responsibility under international humanitarian law and the laws in war to do all in their power to protect the civilian population.

-Israel has a right – indeed a duty – to defend itself against terrorists. Israel also has a responsibility to distinguish between terrorists and ordinary civilians.

-The Israeli Government has a responsibility to “rein in” extremist Jewish settlers in the occupied West Bank.

-It is totally unacceptable to have extremist settler violence against innocent people in the West Bank.



...no where in that is an insinuation that Palestinian citizens are complicit in what Hamas is doing or has done.

Moreover, there are few people who would argue that the U.S. or anyone else would take the same posture toward foreign conflicts that we did when we dropped the bomb.

Indeed, much of our military posture is directed away from those collateral consequences BECAUSE of the questions and controversy that came out of periods of war, in WWll, as well as in Vietnam, Cambodia and Korea.

I get that some believe the U.S. should acquiesce whatever means necessary to fight Hamas, but this isn't a zero sum conflict FOR THE U.S.. Never has been.

Response to bigtree (Reply #18)

 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
30. Important issues in life are rarely black and white, but varying shades of gray. Are you under the
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:25 PM
Nov 2023

impression that we are obligated to believe everything the OP is saying or nothing? The purpose of a discussion forum is not to cheerlead but to discuss. Why would you want to eliminate that?

Response to Chainfire (Reply #30)

TheRealNorth

(9,500 posts)
67. Lol
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:39 PM
Nov 2023

I always try to use the /sarcasm emojii. Sometimes, without that verbal tone we often associate with a sarcastic comment, it gets lost when put to print. Similar situation happened to me a while back.

Response to TheRealNorth (Reply #67)

Response to Skittles (Reply #41)

Skittles

(153,310 posts)
51. my way or the highway
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:07 PM
Nov 2023

love it or leave it

you're either with us or against us

yup........it will never end

PatSeg

(47,768 posts)
39. The retaliatory concept that all Palestinians are
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:51 PM
Nov 2023

responsible for the actions of Hamas, would make all of us responsible for the actions of the Bush/Cheney administration during the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. That would even include torture, Gitmo, and black sites. In the meantime, bombing innocent civilians only creates more terrorists.

onecaliberal

(33,003 posts)
28. My father, who fought Nazis in WWII would beg to differ. The children and mothers trapped do not deserve this
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:08 PM
Nov 2023

any more than the Americans working at the World Trade Center deserved what happened to them on 9-11. You don't get to kill innocent people for vengeance.

This country learned NOTHING from the Iraq war. It was okay to kill them too.

3Hotdogs

(12,467 posts)
32. It was in the '70's, Summit, N.J. She was, maybe about 50 and she worked in the local movie theater,
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:30 PM
Nov 2023

She collected tickets and whatever else the job entailed. She had an accent and when I asked, said she was born in Germany. She immigrated here after the war.

There is a certain kind of smile a person has when they are telling a tale that is too horrible, too sad to tell without a smile because they will cry if they are not selling --- as she told about living in Dresden during the war.


As to how this pertains to today? All I can figure is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong.

3H

Hekate

(91,035 posts)
66. Horrifying experience. Did she have a tattoo? In the early 1950s when I was a toddler...
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:37 PM
Nov 2023

… there were two European women in the neighborhood: one German and one Austrian. Because I was a pre-schooler, the story of the interactions was my Mom’s.

The Austrian woman was very young when her family left Vienna ahead of the Anschluss. By the time they reached France they were enemy aliens, and the family was put into a French internment camp and split up. The mother and her kids didn’t see her husband again until they were aboard a postwar ship to America, and frankly just bumped into him.

The German woman was older — she came over as a war bride. There’s no problem with that, per se. But her story shook my Mom. She was a court reporter for the Nazis during the war. She sat in court as Jew after Jew and anyone who aided them were sentenced to concentration camps or death outright. When my young mother expressed horror and asked what this woman had thought of that experience, that job, the woman said in all sincerity, “But they were criminals!”

Dresden was terrible — no doubt another city could have been chosen and it would have been just as awful for them, yes? But at first and last, Germany started that war in the name of the German people, and therein lies an eternal dilemma.


Warpy

(111,464 posts)
40. It can be argued that they did start this
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 04:54 PM
Nov 2023

by allowing scum like Netanyahu to wall those people up, deprive them of things they needed to enjoy life, creating the conditions for a bunch of murderous thugs who promised revenge to grow and flourish.

This didn't come out of nowhere, conditions in Gaza have been appalling for a long time, and young men have grown up with absolutely no hope of anything better. They were suckers for evil men who promised paradise in exchange for committing atrocities against the people who built the walls around them..

None of this makes any sense. It didn't have to happen. Wretchedly bad leadership on both sides did this. Arab states that refused refugees made it worse. It all brought us to where we are now.

radicalleft

(482 posts)
53. It baffles me why seemingly intelligent people
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:12 PM
Nov 2023

can't understand this and really believe that these incidents are simply chalked up to "one side good, the other side is bad"

Warpy

(111,464 posts)
80. A lot of people just don't do nuance
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 06:49 PM
Nov 2023

and it's especially tempting to do the good vs. evil thing when atrocities are committed against women and children.

I have the advantage, having been aware of what's going on for a long lifetime and knowing people from both sides who weren't monsters, at all, having fled the area to escape the people who are.

IronLionZion

(45,666 posts)
49. German and Japanese people still exist today
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:05 PM
Nov 2023

the plan was never to kill all of them to make sure the bad ones died.

radicalleft

(482 posts)
62. Here's what I find incencere about posts like this...
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:25 PM
Nov 2023

"My dad did this or my Mom did that"

As if that gives you some kind of a moral pass to justify blowing BABIES to pieces in the hopes that we hit a bad guy. If you are so hell bent on fighting Hamas and "putting this to rest" lace up them boots and pick up a weapon and stand a post...don't stand on your fathers shoulders and act like that gives you the right to comdem others to death.

claudette

(3,640 posts)
63. Yes
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:27 PM
Nov 2023

Hamas started it but that is NO excuse for Israel to use collective punishment and KILL 3000 children and innocent adults who had nothing to do with 10/7. Ceasefire and find another way to “get” Hamas. Please 🥲

TheRealNorth

(9,500 posts)
76. Absolutely
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 06:16 PM
Nov 2023

My stance is that there doesn't even have to be a ceasefire, just don't drop a bunker-buster bomb without any regard to the number of civilians that get killed.

But no, the justification is that they will kill any number of civilians because there is a bad guy there also (we think).

GreenWave

(6,829 posts)
64. War is Hell and rarely do we get the entire conglomeration of stories.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:33 PM
Nov 2023

My grandfather (WWII vet) told of how the American people loved their soldiers so much they overproduced! So there was talk he heard in the military of how and where to ditch the surplus, but keep the people busy at the factories.

It is only when I grew up the horror comes full fold. Atomic waste was collected and a part of it was cruelly dumped in the ventilation system of the Pruitt Igo section of St. Louis. Many people died rather quickly, including my grandfather, grandmother and aunts.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/-experimented-victims-secret-cold-war-testing-st-louis-demand-compensa-rcna117149

This is the same USA that did inject soldiers with syphilis, subject others to being witnesses to atomic blasts, etc.

And the Japanese Americans were put into concentration camps as others have said without the slightest shred of evidence. It was pure and evil racism. Many German Americans and Italian Americans outwardly wanted the Nazis to win but I don't think they went to those camps. Businesses colluded with the Nazis and they did not face charges of treason.

To be fair to the war and not Hollywood Russia bore the major attack by the Nazis who wanted to take Russia and turn it into an amusement park for Germans and even try to bring back feral breeds of dangerous cows. Part of their plan was to say the Russians did the Holocaust, just look where the murders took place, but the people around them fought them tooth and nail and we know the truth. The Nazis killed many. We should note as William Jefferson Clinton said to Yeltsin, (1995) if I recall correctly over 57,000,000 people in the Soviet Union died as a result of the war either in battle or from having their food supplies bombed so they would starve.

So all people must unite against Nazis and against haters of Jewish people. We are all in this together.

Diraven

(552 posts)
103. But can we also unite against haters of Palestinians?
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 12:53 PM
Nov 2023

There seems to be a few of those in here. The ones who say Israel should be free to kill every last Hamas member even if it kills hundreds of innocent Palestinians for each one. The ones who invoke WW2 and equate Hamas with Nazis. You know what we didn't do in WW2? Kill every last Nazi. We made peace with them.

yagotme

(3,037 posts)
109. Yes, we killed Nazis,
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 01:15 PM
Nov 2023

until they laid down their arms and quit attacking. We didn't bomb after the surrender, either. Hamas hasn't reached that stage yet.

GreenWave

(6,829 posts)
116. If there are haters of arabs and want them all dead
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 02:30 PM
Nov 2023

we should oppose them as well.

The bizarre thing is I am an atheist and I oppose theocracies.

Warpy

(111,464 posts)
73. Since those days, other things have come to light
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 06:00 PM
Nov 2023

o nce the principals were safely dead and buried and it was safe to release the paperwork. There is a good case to be made that the bombs were dropped to bring a quick close to the war without allowing Stalin into the region, and we all know if that buzzard's army had gotten into the region, they wouldn't have ceded any land they occupied and the US saw this as a blunder.

I don't think this contradicts to the conventional wisdom about what an invasion would have cost us and the Japanese. It adds to it, another reason to use doomsday weapons to end a war more quickly.

I have never doubted why the bombs were dropped. My objection has always been where they were dropped, the military insisting on "pristine" targets that weren't already destroyed. You know, non military targets "for science." That is what has always stuck in my craw. YMMV.

yagotme

(3,037 posts)
98. Hiroshima was a manufacturing center,
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 10:09 AM
Nov 2023

and Nagasaki was a seaport. Both cities were lower on the "to be bombed" list, and didn't have as much tonnage dropped on them as other cities. Nagasaki wasn't even the original target, but the original target was socked in by weather, and Nagasaki was the secondary. Death tolls were far less with the A-bomb drops than what a full scale invasion would have been. The US estimated 1 million casualties (ours) on an invasion, and had a whole crapload of Purple Hearts made. IIRC, we are STILL currently using out of that stock, or were, until recently.

Warpy

(111,464 posts)
112. With the war in Europe over, Stalin was shifting his army to the east
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 02:06 PM
Nov 2023

as the Allies prepared to finish Japan's imperial ambitions off. As it was, Russia managed to grab a few of the northernmost islands, largely unpopulated and without significant resources.

A divided Germany was a mess and a flashpoint for decades. A divided Japan would have been the same.

yagotme

(3,037 posts)
123. IIRC, Japan and Russia fought for 2 more weeks AFTER
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 04:51 PM
Nov 2023

we signed the treaty. Russia was after more property, and fought to gain as much as possible.

Stuart G

(38,458 posts)
74. Please, Please, Please, and Please read Post Number 72. I have tried to explain how historical events are..VERY, VERY
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 06:08 PM
Nov 2023
COMPLICATED AND OFTEN CANNOT BE EXPLAINED SIMPLY.....................

..............................and Thank You for reading this, and perhaps reading all these posts, and post number 72...................

TheRealNorth

(9,500 posts)
78. Please correct me if i am wrong...
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 06:28 PM
Nov 2023

But it sounds like you are saying that unless you are some sort of expert in Middle Eastern history (or maybe only in Israeli history) you have no right to judge how Israel is waging this war? And if you do, you are as stupid as Donald Trump.

Does that about sum it up?

Stuart G

(38,458 posts)
82. NO, That does not....sum it up.
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 07:18 PM
Nov 2023

You have a right to judge Middle Eastern history, of course. And you have the right to judge how Israel is waging this war.
What I am saying is that to judge a complicated situation accurately and completely, you need to understand the entire
picture, and whatever the picture is. To judge it correctly, a person needs to know as much as a person can know.
George Washington did not fight the American Revolution alone, and Abe Lincoln did not fight the Civil War alone. If an
individual tries to make those events simple, that individual fails to understand what caused the events. I compared the
current situation to people who do not know the history of World War 2.. And those people who do not know how World
War 2 started. Often, those people who do not know the total facts about something, do not get the situation correct.
......You can study what you want, and say what you want, but to get a situation correct you often have to know all the facts
behind the situation that has taken place. You do not need to be an expert in World History to know who Adolph Hitler was.

......Adolph Hitler is a well known figure. As well known as any historical figure. Do people who are not historical experts
know about Hitler and what he was and did? To know about Hitler does not require a person to be an expert in anything.
....Therefore, in order to know how the North won the Civil War it is not enough to know that the North had more troops
than the South. It certainly is not as simple as that. Where was the war fought, and how was it fought is just as
important as anything. And knowing about those events (where and how the war was fought) takes a lot of knowledge.
.....That is enough for this one. Current life is not simple. How do you explain a ....Stick Shift Auto..? ...............
...............Some people don't even know what that is. To know about cars you do not need to be an expert on cars.
But to know a lot about cars, you should know what a ....Stick Shift Are is. Yes, you can still buy a stick shift auto.

TheRealNorth

(9,500 posts)
83. So a few things....
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 07:57 PM
Nov 2023

I don't dispute that knowledge of history can help someone make a better informed decision.

HOWEVER

1. I think the real issue at hand is not only a question of history but of morality - and that question essentially boils down to, when is it just to accept civilian losses when pursuing an enemy target, and what are the limits as to when those civilian losses morally outweigh the benefits (if any) of taking military action at that time.

2. You don't know me, what I know, or my credentials. You only know what I write and try to communicate here. I try to be transparent in my intentions and with my rationale. I would also like to point out that much PCInterns' post referred to was World War 2. And I think my knowledge about World War 2 is quite extensive. I don't know what gives you the right to judge that my knowledge, or anyone else posting in this thread , is not as well informed as PCInterns. I mean, do you have any knowledge that PCIntern has a PhD in history with a thesis on the root causes or conduct of WW2? I am going to assume you do not, but please correct me if I am wrong.

3. Who makes the decision that me or anyone else has a sufficient base of knowledge to make an informed decision, in your mind? And what credentials, or what areas of historical knowledge? I would consider myself somewhat of an amateur military historian, so I know a lot about how wars have been fought throughout history, and that moral justifications and how what is generally considered "acceptable" in the terms of how military acts or conducts itself, has changed throughout history. But I am willing to admit I don't know it all. I know that what was considered "acceptable" military conduct in Aztec culture was very different from what was acceptable in Spanish culture, and vice versa, as an example. But I accept that there are holes in my knowledge when it comes to the breadth of how wars are fought across the millennia. What was considered acceptable military conduct in 1945 has also evolved - the Geneva Conventions and its accompanying protocols have attempted to codify that. I don't know if any one person could know everything about such a vast topic. And I am willing to say that there others here in DU that know more, or at least know more in certain areas.

4. I think your argument is based on the desire to call into question the opinions of those that do not reaffirm your pre-existing biases, and not on the basis of any sort of superior historical insight.

Maru Kitteh

(28,348 posts)
91. You may have seen my father over there. He woke screaming a few times a month for
Thu Nov 2, 2023, 11:27 PM
Nov 2023

the rest of his life. He was 50 when I was born, 23 years after he came home. It was hard to get him to talk about anything that happened there but while other schoolchildren were prohibited from watching "The Holocaust" on television, my father made sure I watched every minute of it. He told me at that tender age "Never forget, it can happen here" and I took his words to heart. I know one of his duties was to help clean at least one of the camps.

I never imagined the forgetting would happen in my lifetime.

world wide wally

(21,762 posts)
99. The people of Gaza need to realize that Hamas is their ENEMY.
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 12:23 PM
Nov 2023

Hamas are basically the little brat kid who kicks someone and hides behind someone else while they continue to berate the person as the victim takes out his anger on an innocent (or not) bystander.

progressoid

(50,020 posts)
107. Yeah, looks like you really put this to rest.
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 01:06 PM
Nov 2023

Everyone is in agreement. Time to move on to the next problem.

NCIndie

(556 posts)
110. "I did not once hear the phrase 'innocent German civilians' or 'innocent Japanese civilians'." WHAT?
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 01:37 PM
Nov 2023

In what context? Dresden? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? The U.S did not start the WWII, but they sure as hell killed a lot of innocent civilians.

"And one more thing: I remember my father telling me that the decision to drop the atomic bombs on Japan was certainly debatable from a moral standpoint, but he said that he and his company were being prepared for the invasion of Japan, and were told that, almost certainly they would all be killed as the older troops were going to be sacrificed for the beach head landing. If not for the atomic bombs, he said, he wouldn’t be here. So the rule of war is that some must die in order that others may live." Oh, the moral compromises we make when it comes to slaughtering innocent civilians.

uponit7771

(90,371 posts)
111. Hitler ruled Germany legally and with consent of Germans, no honest person is saying the same for Hamas
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 01:56 PM
Nov 2023

PCIntern

(25,656 posts)
122. So your contention is that the rulers have
Fri Nov 3, 2023, 04:11 PM
Nov 2023

Virtually no support among their “constituents”. I somehow doubt that but you’re entitled to your opinion.

Tree Lady

(11,538 posts)
129. My dad was one of those
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:04 AM
Nov 2023

he was a gunner in Japan in the army aircore before they had Airforce. He was preparing for a large scale battle right before the bomb, so I probably wouldn't be alive if he got killed. He watched his best friend the other gunner on airplane die few weeks before that. He never talked about it my whole life until right before he died in 2000.

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