No! There are not two sides: Not when terrorists enter rooms full of people and, yes

[question everything]

terrorize them and killing them one by one and then taking babies and elderly in wheelchairs hostage.

Israel has never done this! On the Israel/Palestinian page we are forbidden from using the term terrorist but what they did in these rooms ware acts of terror.

Yes, individual civilians were killed in Israel. They were in a middle of war and, yes, ended as collateral damage. This happens in wars.

How can people here compare these horrible reports to anything really boggles my mind.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/emergency-group-says-260-were-slain-by-terrorists-at-rave-as-families-seek-answers/


Some 260 people were mowed down by Hamas gunmen who invaded an outdoor music festival in southern Israel during their deadly assault on the country over the weekend, an emergency group said Sunday

[hlthe2b]

1. The answer: THEY AREN'T. You intentionally conflate a discussion of 50 plus year of conflict with

a horrific terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas (and likely others)--which no one can defend in any way, shape or form. Hamas deserves everything coming to them, but innocent civilians held as human shields--both Israeli captives and Palestinian civilians alike, do not deserve any of the violence to come.

But NO ONE IS saying this HAMAS terrorist attack on Israel equates to ANYTHING. Like Al Qaida's 911 attack on the US, this is a singularly indefensible event. PERIOD.

[question everything]

2. Some here do, and praised.

[leftstreet]

3. "praised?" I haven't seen that here n/t

[question everything]

16. Sending it to the 'greatest page"

[hlthe2b]

5. You seem to see and reframe/reinterpret everything through the lense of what you want to see.

If you are saying that some DUers feel this way, I have neither seen it nor believe it. So, I'm left to wonder, do you really detest your fellow DUers so much?

[Hekate]

9. I just tuned in to DU, and in scanning the threads I actually did see such statements ...

Maybe it’s not having my first cup of coffee yet. Or maybe my brain is numb from the strain of trying to find a space in it where I don’t have to stare at the realization that while the planet is dying, everywhere segments of the human race are planning and starting all-out wars.

Maybe that’s why those both-sider posts jumped out at me so painfully. I don’t “detest my fellow DUers” — but I saw what I saw this morning.

Now I’ll go away and let DU duke it out without me.

[hlthe2b]

32. And I have seen those justifying genocide against the Palestinian people (not just HAMAS) because

(as they see it), "the Palestinians voted Hamas in,"-- ignoring that Netanyahu chose to ignore the Palestinian Authority and others to interact/"negotiate" only with Hamas throughout his time in office... (Likewise ignoring the parallels between a populace being at the mercy of a terrorist group supposedly voted into power and on some level with 60% of Americans who never voted for authoritarian Trump, his Magats, 3 Percenters, Proud Boys--yet having been subject to their whims and excess--something the world saw as horrifying and which might happen again).

I have no problem laying the blame where it belongs and calling for the defeat/total decimation of Hamas (and if Hezbollah is involved, them as well). But that said, the language of extermination/genocide for a people that have been exploited in the role of human shields at the hands of Hamas --especially by those who know better, is just beyond the pale. Don't believe me? Send me a PM and I will provide you the links.

[redqueen]

34. You would think so

"the language of extermination/genocide for a people that have been exploited in the role of human shields at the hands of Hamas --especially by those who know better, is just beyond the pale."

Unfortunately, it seems to be acceptable

[ripcord]

4. We keep coming back to the fact that Hamas is embedded in the population

Hamas will continue their terror attack, this time on the Palestinian people.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

23. What I've seen

is posters unable or unwilling to differentiate between Palestinians and Hamas.

[Mosby]

47. Hamas won a legislative election in 2006

So a great many Palestinians support their views.

Just saying.

[Igel]

25. The problem is that the discussions and claims are often

slippery with wiggle room.

[milestogo]

6. There is only one side if your history only goes back 4 days.

But if you take a larger view of history, there are two sides: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

[BuddhaGirl]

12. +1

thanks for the link

[Beastly Boy]

14. The context IS four days old.

If you want to go back in history, you have to do better than Amnesty, which, if your link is any indication, is not much concerned with accurate depiction of recent history.

[Sneederbunk]

7. Unfortunately doing what Palestinians and Israelis do.

[Bonx]

8. Oh there are definitely two sides. And it's an easy and obvious choice which one I support.

[SCantiGOP]

10. Ask yourself one question

Would you view this differently had you emigrated from a Palestinian enclave 10 years ago, and most of your family remained in Gaza?

[question everything]

19. Thousands of Gazans have been working in Israel. A lot of supplies as well as millions

of money from Qatar were flowing into Gaza.

Most Gazans prefer to be left alone and we have heard, yes on these pages, how Hamas arrested and tortured many opponents.

Yes, I would worry about them being subjected to such harsh living conditions that are not caused by Israel. And, of course the way Hamas use so many as human shield.

[Johnny2X2X]

22. Human Shields

I never understood this depiction. Hamas are people living in Palestine, they have families, they have neighbors. If they go home to their wives and children, are they using them as human shields? Are they supposed to leave their families when they join Hamas? And Hamas buildings, are they supposed to label them as such and move them away from other parts of the city?

Now Hamas has used basements of hospitals and schools to build bombs. That's using human shields and I get it. But mostly, taking out Hamas means finding them and killing them wherever they are, the people they are with are usually no more human shields than if Israeli government officials sleep in their own homes at night.

[claudette]

11. Yes it was

Horrific and should never have happened. Remember that Israel will bombard Gaza with weapons so terrible that cause much death and destruction even to innocents who have no means of defense.

[Marius25]

21. And Hamas just announced they will execute a hostage for each strike on Gaza

and they will record and release the executions. Hamas is literally behaving exactly like ISIS. There is already video of them brutally torturing hostages.

The US leveled entire cities to eliminate ISIS. Israel will do the same to Hamas.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

24. Link?

I saw that suggestion posted here yesterday, by a DUer.

You, maybe?

[Marius25]

27. Was just on MSNBC chyron

https://www.kiro7.com/news/world/hamas-threatens-kill/IAPVF23RSVGGVCCTGU4USW7MA4/

They just interviewed a father on MSNBC. His wife and 2 daughters were kidnapped - the kids are like 3 and 5 years old.

[claudette]

29. Again, as I said

It is HORRIBLE what terrorists do to others. Comparing Hamas' war tactics to Israel's use of much more sophisticated weapons is a futile way to view this war. This could have been settled YEARS ago with a two-state solution where both sides could live in freedom. Dump's making Jerusalem the capital of Israel did not help matters either.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

36. How could Benedict make Jerusalem the capital of Israel?

He was the US pres., not the Israeli PM.
Benedict backed the Israeli Govt. decision, but he most certainly did not make Jerusalem the capital.

It helps your case when you get your facts right.

[claudette]

37. Here are the facts

"President Donald Trump announced Wednesday that the U.S. would officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, breaking with decades of precedent, sparking an uproar among world leaders, and further jeopardizing the prospects of Middle East peace.

"I have determined that it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel," Trump said from the Diplomatic Reception Room in the White House. "I have judged this course of action to be in the best interests of the United States of America and the pursuit of peace between Israel and the Palestinians."

"Today we finally acknowledge the obvious: That Jerusalem is Israel's capital. This is nothing more or less than a recognition of reality. It is also the right thing to do. It's something that has to be done," he added.,,,

Trump also said he was putting in motion a move of the U.S. embassy to the holy city from Tel Aviv — a process that aides have said could take several years — by "directing State Department to begin preparations" for the move.

That includes "hiring architects, engineers and planners, so that a new embassy, when completed would be a magnificent tribute to peace," he said. The move marked a follow-through by Trump on a major campaign promise he'd made that had been closely followed by Israel and by evangelical Christians in the U.S...."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-recognizes-jerusalem-israel-s-capital-n827096/

[MarineCombatEngineer]

38. Where in there does it say that Benedict made Jerusalem the capital?

Benedict had no authority to make Jerusalem the capital, that was up to the Israeli govt., not the US govt.

[claudette]

39. Here is part of it....

"...Since the 1979 Camp David Accords, U.S. presidents have refused to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel or move the U.S. embassy. The U.S. approach has been that Jerusalem's status should be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinians.

The Palestinians have sought the city's eastern sector, captured by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war, as the capital of a future independent state. They fear Trump's declaration essentially imposes on them a disastrous solution for one of the core issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict...."

[MarineCombatEngineer]

40. Your own post says it all,

Benedict recognized Jerusalem as the capital, he didn't make it the capital, again, he was the US pres., not the Israeli PM, he only recognized it.

[claudette]

41. The fact is

there IS NO capital of Israel. The U.S. Embassy was in Tel Aviv. Dump "made it" the capital by moving the embassy there. The Israeli PM didn't make Jerusalem the capital. He had no authority to move OUR embassy there. Please check it out. It's a side argument to the horrible war now, but I'm betting this idiotic move by Dump didn't sit well with Palestinians who have religious shrines in Jerusalem, as does Israel and Christianity.

[Mosby]

51. Israel decides their capital.

And it's Jerusalem.

Every country has a right to choose their capital.

[SCantiGOP]

13. Over the past decade

The civilian death toll has been 20:1 Palestinian.
This does not justify Hamas actions, but it certainly explains it.

[Beastly Boy]

15. This doesn't explain anything other than

Hamas doing its best to even the score.

Which is a practically impossible task considering how little concern Hamas has for Palestinian lives.

[SCantiGOP]

33. 6,400 to 300

These are all people. And the numbers will go up now, dramatically.
These figures are from the UN.

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

[redqueen]

35. They were* all people

Now they are gone, and it seems few have learned very much at all from history.

[Beastly Boy]

42. Tragic. Do you have any reason to believe that the efforts of Hamas and PA to protect their people

Last edited Mon Oct 9, 2023, 04:15 PM - Edit history (1)

matches or even comes close to Israel's effort to protect theirs?

If not, playing the ratios game out of context is a travesty.

[SCantiGOP]

44. Were our Founding Fathers

looking to protect Americans when they took the colonies into a war of independence?
Or were they reacting to an intolerable tyranny being imposed on them by a superior power?

[Beastly Boy]

45. This has absolutely nothing to do with my post, but I will reply anyway.

Our founding fathers took us into a war. They never took us into a campaign of terror and indiscriminate slaughter. They fought soldiers, not civilians. They wanted independdence from Britin. They never wanted a complete takeover of Britain. They wanted a representative democracy, not an oppressive autocracy. They were enlightened thinkers, not religious fanatics out for blood.

I could go on, but this should be enough for now. Comparing our founding fathers to war criminals is a ridiculous proposition.

[Beastly Boy]

53. You are free to fabricate your own.

Oh wait, you already did just that. Did regular militias routinely and indiscriminately slaughter civilians? Even according to your selective recollections of the war for independence, they did not.

No need to hear from me what you already know, though.

[Torchlight]

49. Rationalizing it I'd think, rather than explaining it.

[GenXer47]

17. sorry but they've been at war since 1967 - hence the occupied territories

If Israel doesn't want to be at war then it should end the war.
No reasonable person would contend that there are two equal parties here. Israel has all the power, always has.
"Racism" is always defined based on which group has the power. An American Black man's resentment of white cops, for example, isn't racist.
Israel is a modern-day colonialist power in an age when we seem to finally be awakening to the evil of colonialism. Alliance with them is actually holding back our own national healing. Instead, a huge segment of our population want to emulate them with border walls, a militarized police force just like the IDF, and even "bombing Mexico". A white, christian ethnostate in the model of Israel. NO THANKS.

[PCIntern]

26. Ummm...

There are so many falsehoods in your post that I don't know where to begin.

OK...The Israelis rescued thousands of Ethiopians, more than 14,000 if memory serves me correctly in Operation Solomon, and that was not exactly a mission to save WHITE people now, was it? There were great challenges in assisting these people and this mission of mercy was extremely difficult and costly for the host country.

The IDF has shown greater restraint than any other police force in the world - there would have been calls after all those bombings in the 80's and 90's that in any other country including the USA to annihilate the areas from whence these individuals came.

There's two....

[sarisataka]

28. 1967?

When Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia attacked Israel. That war? Isn't that akin to saying if Ukraine doesn't want to be at war then they should end the war?

No I do not approve of the treatment of Palestinians. I do think they should be able to live in peace on land they can call their own. However, I also believe Israel has a right to exist which is not compatible with Hamas stated goals.

Maybe Palestinians need to end Hamas.

[Torchlight]

50. I think its immediate genesis lies further back, found within the Sykes-Picot Accords.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

18. Right. And Israel has never evicted Palestinians,

confiscated their land and property, and move their own citizens into those places.

Oh, wait. That's exactly what they've been doing since 1948.

[question everything]

20. About 600,000 Jews escaped Arab countries after 1948. They were absorbed in the new

Israeli society. A similar number of Arabs escaped Israel into the West Bank - then part of Jordan - were placed in refugees camps to be used and manipulated by Arab countries to divert any domestic unrest.

[claudette]

30. Saying there are

"two sides" does not, in any way, justify EITHER side's behavior. There are ALWAYS two side to any conflict. That doesn't mean one is justified and the other isn't. In my view - BOTH sides can be wrong in a war.

[roamer65]

31. Bingo.

I refuse to buy into either poison.

[krawhitham]

43. "Israel has never done this!" ???

You might want to search harder

[Marius25]

46. Israel has never done what Hamas has.

Israel has never mass murdered a concert of international tourists and civilians.

Israel has never mass raped women, kids, and the elderly.

Israel has never cut hostages open and set them on fire.

Israel has never beheaded people, recorded it, and played for the world to see their savagery.

Israel has never taken Holocaust survivors hostage.

[Marius25]

48. People who both sides this are no better than those who supported Osama Bin Laden

OBL had justification for 9/11 and his attack on America, reasons very similar to Palestinians opposition to Israel.

Same with Al Qaeda.

Same with ISIS.

Yet we viewed everyone who cheered those groups on as murderous, barbaric savages. In fact people who side with ISIS are often kicked out of European countries and have their citizenship stripped.