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[cab67]

This message was self-deleted by its author (cab67) on Mon Oct 9, 2023, 12:21 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[tritsofme]

1. It is certainly possible. It's also clearly possible to use anti-Israel rhetoric to mask

what is clearly anti-Semitic sentiment.

[cab67]

2. Fair enough.

But I've been accused of anti-semitism merely for thinking Netanyahu is a dangerous fool. And I've been called that here on DU.

For what it's worth (which is probably nothing), the most hard-right people I met in Israel (or saw on Israeli TV) were mostly American expats. But again, I'm referring to political positions with which I disagree - not the millions who adhere to traditions that have persisted for two or three thousand years in the face of neverending persecution and genocide.

[Elessar Zappa]

7. I don't think anyone here likes Netanyahu.

But it has nothing to do with yesterday’s terrorist attacks. All Hamas has done is make life much harder for the Palestinian people they claim to represent.

[lostnfound]

15. He has been in power for 16 years and failed to stop it. If he were liberal...

If he was a liberal, they’d blame the liberal prime minister for having appeased the terrorists.

[calimary]

22. Excellent point.

[soldierant]

86. Bingo.

[burrowowl]

12. Amen!

[Lonestarblue]

3. I agree with you. Criticizing government policies is not criticizing a whole religion.

I equate the hard right in Israel to our own hard right who use their religious beliefs to try to deny rights to others who do not believe as they do. Plus, Trump and Netanyahu are soul mates—corrupt, greedy, and lusting for power. Both are worth criticizing.

[MOMFUDSKI]

4. There should be no religion involved

in politics.

[Marthe48]

5. Very true

When there is no separation of church and state, the church is the state. It never ends well, no matter what religion, in what location.

[Rebl2]

6. I agree

but unfortunately there is

[Ocelot II]

9. True, but there often is, both in the US and elsewhere.

I don't know how to change that, since religion is so intertwined with so many cultures.

[Ace Rothstein]

10. Good luck with that in that part of the world.

[wnylib]

24. But for Israel, it is inescapable. It is part of their identity as a people.

It is where their cultural customs and traditions come from. It is possible to have a secular government for people who are religious. But modern Israel was founded as a refuge and nation for people of a specific religion who needed a place of their own in a world that tried to exterminate them.

Want to blame someone for Israel being a nation of one predominant culture and religion? Start with Europeans who tried to obliterate them - expulsion edicts and pogroms throughout Medieval times and the Holocaust in modern times.

When nations like England and Spain expelled Jews, Muslim ruled nations welcomed Jews to join them in the Middle East, where there were still Jews who had been living there since Roman times. Culturally (even linguistically), Jews and Muslims had more on common with each other than either had with Christians. Plus, Muslims were also expelled from Spain and went to ME nations to live.

[JI7]

88. Jewish people originally came from the middle east but where are they now ?

apart from Israel.

[Celerity]

28. Israel is literally a nation founded for one religion, so it isn't possible to remove religion from

its politics.

https://pluralism.org/israel-jewish-nationhood

[Sky Jewels]

42. I'll go one step father. There should be no religion. Period.

It's a cancer on the planet.

If I could wave a magic wand I would erase it all and reset all humans to "reverence for nature and human cooperation" as the basic belief system.

But, magic isn't real (which contradicts what religious people believe). Seems we're stuck with these stupid supernatural mythologies that have been causing untold misery and bloodshed for thousands of years.

[MayReasonRule]

90. Religion Rejects Doubt As Anathema - Reason Embraces Doubt As Essential

Religion deceives and obscures.
Reason informs and reveals.

Here’s to reason’s rule!

[rampartc]

97. hey . may

off topic but we vote for governor saturday. who ya like?

i'm seeing a disastrous term of jindal part 2 wth landry (or any of the repubs) . lundy is an enigma who could be worse but his ads are great. . i don't figure wilson as a winner in the statewide race but he appears to be the leading dem.

[housecat]

61. and Yahoo likes Putin.

[Alice Kramden]

8. K&R n/t

[keithbvadu2]

11. It gets confusing, eh?

[czarjak]

63. Conundrums Matter

Good luck being Pro-Russia & Pro-Israel,. Jesus!

[czarjak]

64. Conundrums Matter

Good luck being Pro-Russia & Pro-Israel. Jesus!

[Bayard]

13. Thank you,

For a thoughtful and informed post.

[JustAnotherGen]

14. One of my best friends

Has a daughter, son in law, and ten month old whose town was hit yesterday.

I've known her daughter since she was in middle school.

I want Israel to finish what Hamas started. Hamas took private citizens as hostages.

I don't care what Israel does to defend itself. Ditto Ukraine.

He who throws the first missile is the one at fault.

[DENVERPOPS]

16. Agree JAG............

Israel needs to be able to defend itself against aggression just like Ukraine.
The U.S. has supplied them with advanced military equipment, technology and planes for some time.
ANYONE of the mideastern countries that takes them on would be making a tragic mistake.....
Israel just needs to get rid of their equivalent of Trump: Totally Corrupt Netanyahoo and his band of merry far right flunkies....

[moonshinegnomie]

17. hamas is going to demand prisoner releases

israel should get the names of th eprisoners hamas wants. then give hamas 24 hours to release every hostage they hold
and if they refuse start executing teh prisoners hamas wants.

I release this will mean the death of the hostages but it will put in end to it Then israel should make it so hamas can never stegthen themself. If it can be proved Iran is involved take out Irans leadership.

Its time to put an end to terrorists

[Duncan Grant]

50. You're endorsing atrocities. Can you hear yourself?

I’m glad it’s not my family members you’re so eager to sacrifice.

[moonshinegnomie]

55. i dont feel one bit of remorse

thats they way to end this one and for all. show the terrorists that taking hostages wont work. Hamas just went in and killed 100's of innocents intentionally at a music festival. kidnapped over 100 others. they plan on using them as a bargaining chip,probably to free their members in israeli jails like they have done before. Israel needs to show them that wont work anymore. the days of 1/2 efforts are over. israel needs to elminate hamas and all their members.

[Duncan Grant]

56. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. - (Google it)

Hamas is evil but sacrificing more innocent lives - when we know that it’s wrong? That’s evil compounded. Inexcusable, absolutely inexcusable.

[moonshinegnomie]

58. you dont negotiate with terrorists

you act as ruthless as they do.

[Martin68]

20. I don't endorse violence by either side, but Israel has placed unsupportable pressure on the

Palestinians by continually building more settlements on their land. Something had to give...

[wnylib]

25. This is, unfortunately true.

I support Israel's self defense. But I do not support Israel's provocative expansion. Neither do I support terrorism as a reaction to the settlements.

[electric_blue68]

72. Agree on both.

Ibcreased illegal settlements have made things increasing worse over the decades!

And resistance should not be slaughter, and kidnapping!


Argggg!

[wnylib]

78. Also, instead of targeting civilians in return,

in a tit for tat response, I wish Israel would target Hamas and wipe them out. Retaliating against civilians only puts them more solidly in favor of Hamas for their own defense.

[electric_blue68]

83. That makes sense.

[Martin68]

101. Hamas lives among civilians in urbanized areas. Israel does bomb the places they live, but many

civilians are also killed and maimed in the process. The US military blithely calls this "collateral damage." It is estimated over 100,000 Iraqi civilians were killed by bombs and missiles during the invasion of Iraq.

[HUAJIAO]

35. The FIRST missile???

I am no ME historian, but I think it is a little more complicated than that.

[Martin68]

102. Yes, there have been missiles and other attacks by both sides since 1948.

[totodeinhere]

18. What do you think about the terrosit attacks carried out by Hama against innocent Jewish civilians?

Not a word from you about that.

[cab67]

30. I've said this elsewhere on DU today -

Israel has a right to defend itself. Hamas started this. Hamas has to accept that Israel isn't going anywhere; that, or the Palestinian people should change their leadership.

That said, I think one of the steps the Israeli government has taken - turning off power to Gaza - will backfire.

[totodeinhere]

52. OK thanks. n/t

[Martin68]

19. Those who can't accept valid criticism are doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes.

The same goes for every country, of course.

[twodogsbarking]

21. I got nothin'. I have never trusted the news about the middle east, going back to the 1960s.

[ShazzieB]

23. "It's entirely possible to be critical of Israel without being antisemitic."

Last edited Sun Oct 8, 2023, 06:27 PM - Edit history (1)

I agree. I am strongly oppposed to antisemitism, and I have always supported Israel's right to exist. That doesn't mean I have to agree with every policy of the Israeli government or with its treatment of the Palestinians. Likewise, I can be concerned about the welfare of the Palestinians while being appalled by Hamas' actions.

[wnylib]

27. I think you speak for most if us with your post.

I certainly agree with it.

[Celerity]

29. +1

[allegorical oracle]

92. Absolutely agree with you. As many here have said it's a conundrum...a vicious cycle. As Israel

restricts Palestinian rights, uprisings occur. In turn, Israel clamps down harder and further restricts almost every aspect of Palestinians' lives. I once advocated for a two-state solution, but now believe that is impossible.

[citizen blues]

26. President Carter's Take on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

I never really knew what to make of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. After hearing things from both sides, what really impacted my view was an interview with President Jimmy Carter. It was about 8 years ago during a time when tensions were high.

The interviewier asked President Carter who was at fault for the ongoing conflict. Carter didn't even miss a beat; he immediately said, "Israel is." He went on to explain that the Camp David Accord between Israel, Palestine, and Egypt that he brokered was absolutely fair. Each party gave up something, and each party gained something.

The interviewer asked a follow up question about what happened that has led to ongoing and often escalating tensions. Carter pointedly said Israel went back on its word. They broke the Camp David Accord. He added that the U.S. needs to re-evaluate the "special relationship" it has with Israel.

I'm not saying Hamas are a bunch of innocents or that they don't have a lot to answer for with the attack on Israeli citizens. But I still have to agree with President Carter. This "ride or die" policy the U.S. has with Israel needs to seriously be reconsidered. On the other hand, I also really hope the Isaelis get a handle on their right-wing extremists just like we need to here in the U.S.

[cab67]

32. And therein lies the problem.

The proportions of the Israeli and Palestinian populations that oppose compromise keep growing.

I take a full-on Realpolitik approach to this. Whatever we might aspire to in the future, we have to deal with realities on the ground.

There are around 7 million people living within the 1967 borders of Israel. They're mostly Jewish, and they're not going anywhere.

There are between 4 and 5 million people - mostly Muslim - living within the Palestinian territories (West Bank and Gaza). They're not going anywhere, either.

(As an aside - this means Israel would face an existential crisis if it were to annex Gaza and the West Bank, which some in Israel want to do. Right now, because a large majority of the population within the 1967 borders is Jewish, it can be a democracy and a Jewish state. But that percentage would drop below 70 percent if the occupied territories are unilaterally annexed. Under those conditions, it would be much harder to be both a democracy and a Jewish state.)

[roamer65]

80. I stand with President Carter.

A brave and smart man. He’s right.

[roamer65]

81. The problem is Hamas Wahhabi extremists and Israeli Zionist extremists.

Too bad both couldn’t be taken out of the picture.

[MOMFUDSKI]

89. There it is!!

Those 4 paragraphs say it all. Thanks.

[gotham]

31. Stop pearl clutching

Of course you can be critical of Israel without being anti semitic.

What a baby. Are all those people protesting in Israel against the rightist agenda antisemitic? Of course not. Sheesh.

That's all.

[cab67]

33. I was responding to actual accusations I've received.

I get sick of people accusing me of a hatred I do not share.

In fact, I take great exception to it. I was raised Catholic, but my wife is Jewish and we're raising our daughter in that tradition. There are living Holocaust survivors in my wife's extended family.

And like I've said, I've been to Israel. I have friends over there, most of whom are Jewish.

So, yeah - maybe I clutch at my pearls when "You just hate Jewish people" is thrown in my face, but I'd like to think I have a good reason for my pique.

[gotham]

34. not her responsibility

The only hatred I've ever encountered at here at DU is when I speak about or defend Israel.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how you or other people try to justify providing electricity to gaza. Hopefully they finally wake up and Israel shuts it off permanently.

Let them burn their own s**t. Its is NOT incumbent on Israel to provide arab terrorists with electrical power.

[gotham]

36. btw

I have certainly never accused you of hatred but I respectfully disagree with your position.

Again, your comments are salient, none hates on you. Please reread post.

Why the Hebrews should provide electricity to the arabs is absurd. There is no collective guilt right now by the Israelis.

[cab67]

38. I appreciate that.

I didn't think you were accusing me of anything beyond holding an opinion different from yours!

I have, however, run into others who have.

[cab67]

39. moreover -

My reason for opposing the power cutoff isn't drawn entirely from a humanitarian concern. It also arises from knowing how conflicts such as this often go. Efforts by a more powerful country to suppress guerilla forces (and that's essentially what the Palestinians launching missiles against Israel are) generally backfire if they alienate the population from which the guerillas are drawn.

I absolutely support Israel's efforts to defend itself - I just think this one aspect of it won't work.

[gotham]

40. family can disagree

In retrospect that decision may or may not work. However you would be hard pressed to tell Israelis today that somehow they owe the arabs of gaza anything.

Keep posting. Keep motivated. Keep a good thought for all the good people. Everywhere

[Snackshack]

41. No it does not.

“I thus know from first-hand that the reactionary behavior of the right wing in that country doesn't represent the country as a whole.” Same as here.

The right-wing in both countries has been exploiting a problem both have and that is not knowing how to deal with a minority group that bullies, threatens and follows thru with violence, kill its citizens from positions in elected offices.

Israel also has a corrupt narcissist leader that is STILL in charge (somehow) and this one thinks he has divine destiny if you listen to his father. As long as religion is alive this will never end between the Arabs and Jews. BIBI has already said "No" to the 2 party state and the government continues the stranglehold of a population similar to Warsaw several decades ago.

Everybody has a "right" to the life given to them by birth. In this day and age we should/must be agree on this or the violence that we live with over and over is never going to stop. Violence we have volumes and volumes or history of that in essence is the same today as it was then.

[Elessar Zappa]

43. It's not religion vs religion.

It’s radical adherents from one religion (Islam) against an entire ethnic group (Jews). Many Jews are atheists, agnostics, and otherwise secular in their thinking. Judaism has little to do with this.

[gotham]

45. No arab ever

Just can't imagine anyone from Isis, hamas, hezbollah et al ever differentiating the nuances of someone else's religion.

[cab67]

46. I agree that Hamas doesn't make a distinction -

But there are also Jewish extremist groups as well. They tend to focus their efforts at colonizing the West Bank and don’t launch rockets into Palestinian territory, so I’m not saying they’re equivalent, but there’s a wide range of attitudes toward Palestinians in Israel.

[gotham]

44. stranglehold?

Bibi is the freely elected leader of a democratic country. I don't like it but there it is. Are you suggesting an arab style dictatorship/autocracy?

Rights? What rights to arabs living in gaza have from hamas. What rights do women have in Afghanistan. What rights do Pakistanis have to not be blown up in mosques. What rights do Chinese Uighurs have to not be enslaved in camps by the millions. Rights? Go back to eating potato chips on your bean bag.

Obviously there is no stranglehold on arabs in the terrorist enclave called the gaza strip. Egypt shares a border with this enclave. Israel provides electricity, jobs, has a border crossing with gaza for goods and services, so what else does Israel owe this arab terrorist enclave?

[Behind the Aegis]

47. Oh for fuck's sake!

I am so SICK of this bullshit argument.

" I can't believe this has to be said again, but...." supporting Israel doesn't mean supporting EVERY and ALL actions. Some criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic and should be called out when it is. Some people just can't help themselves to CONSTANTLY claim "victimization" when they aren't; like the ones who pop into ANY thread about Israel and, in some cases, the first (or first few comments), feel the need to claiming they aren't anti-Semitic, when NO ONE has said ANYTHING.

So, "I can't believe this has to be said again, but...." being pro-Israel isn't the same as being racist or Islamophobic. Calling Hamas and its supporters terrorists, ISN'T indicative of lack of support for the Palestinian people. Just because someone is related to or once encountered a Jew is nothing more than a "some of my best friends" argument, and if that is already being spun out, well, ask yourself why.

Oh and here is something crazy, how's about NOT telling Jews what is and isn't anti-Semitic, ESPECIALLY if you (general use) are one of those who bellow about "mansplaining" and "whitesplaining". Maybe try not to "gentilesplain'".

[NCIndie]

48. Wow.

There is so much offensive language in that post that it is hard to fathom.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. Uh-huh. Two profane words and you can't fathom the point.

[NCIndie]

51. LOL!!! You think it was the FUCKING profanity?

This place can be so insular that it has become perfectly acceptable to show extreme intolerance to a broad spectrum of groups.

[Behind the Aegis]

54. LOL! Quite the insight from just a month.

Talk about insular.

[JustAnotherGen]

57. Thank you BTA

I'm going to have to back away from DU.

I'm seeing red today - and this is non-negotiable.

Hamas is running Palestine. If there are reasonable people there - they need to turn their guns on Hamas and bring them to heel.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67045138

Hamas gunmen cut through the heavily fortified fence that lines Gaza's perimeter and crossed into southern Israel on motorbikes, paragliders and by sea.

An Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesman said the militants numbered in the high hundreds, while more than 3,000 rockets were fired towards cities and towns across Israel throughout the day.

"They attacked dozens of Israeli communities and IDF bases and went door to door," Lt Col Jonathan Conricus said Saturday night. "They executed Israeli civilians in cold blood in their homes and then continued to drag into Gaza Israeli civilians and military personnel."

Folks need to stop twisting themselves in knots to defend Hamas.

They are in the wrong. I'm not going to cry. I don't cry when Russians get killed in Ukraine either.

[cab67]

67. I don't think anyone here is defending Hamas.

I’m absolutely not.

[cab67]

59. Bullshit?

For someone like me - not Jewish, but married into a Jewish family whom I love - inferring antisemitism on my part I’d almost a slur itself.

[Behind the Aegis]

60. and there it is...

[cab67]

65. You know ...

…you’d have had a point if my initial post had been directed at Jewish people.

In fact, the majority of those who’ve labeled me an ant-semite are ether (a) people whose religious backgrounds I do not know or (b) gentiles.

At no point did I say a lot of Jewish people were denouncing people.

So please don’t accuse me of ‘gentile/spraining’ anything. The claim is offensive.

[Behind the Aegis]

73. Oh please. You are NOT the victim, so just STOP!

Seriously...STOP!

I would say you are purposely misconstruing my objection, but I think you really didn't comprehend what I said or how fucking offensive your initial post was!

I don't need to hear about "your best friends", I also don't need to hear how you are so misunderstood and put upon just trying to spread the word about Israel and you are so put upon because before ANYONE can say ANYTHING, they have already called you or implied you are anti-Semitic.

Your need to PRE EMPTIVELY claim nothing you say is anti-Semitic is just stupid. Say what you have to say and if someone calls it anti-Semitic, then ask for an explanation.

"At no point did I say a lot of Jewish people were denouncing people." Nor did I say or even imply any such nonsense. What a fucking bizarre strawman?!

"So please don’t accuse me of ‘gentile/spraining’ anything. The claim is offensive." WAAAAH! Again! I didn't say you did! READ IT AGAIN....

"Oh and here is something crazy, how's about NOT telling Jews what is and isn't anti-Semitic, ESPECIALLY if you (general use) are one of those who bellow about "mansplaining" and "whitesplaining". Maybe try not to "gentilesplain'"."

The "general use" meant the "you" was a group tern., not a singular (referring to YOU directly) term.

Your post was offensive to me and I laid out why. And since strawmen are all the rage in this thread, "Why can't I have an opinion contrary to yours?" See, you never said nor claimed anything of the like, but now here we are, if I were serious, with an accusation you would likely feel to rail against, despite never saying nor claiming it.

[cab67]

74. Perhaps we're both talking past each other.

I'm not playing the victim here.

You used the term "gentile-splaining" and said i shouldn't be telling Jewish people what is and isn't antisemitism. That looked, to me, like a claim that I was directing my comments toward Jewish readers. If I was wrong about that (and it's likely I was), I withdraw my complaint and apologize.

I do, however, stand by my claim that accusing me of "gentile-splaining" is offensive. Again, I'm not being a victim here. I was reacting to actual accusations leveled against me, here and elsewhere. I've encountered them for years (mostly, so far as I know, from gentiles), and I'm tired of it and want it to stop. I realize you weren't the one leveling the accusations. But likewise, neither was I trying to explain anything to the Jewish community (which you did, indeed, seemed to accuse me of doing).

Also - I wasn't referring to best friends. I was referring to my wife and daughter.

Hopefully, we really are all on the same side. We both support Israel, and want to see it defeat Hamas, even if we disagree on how that defeat should be brought about. I was only reacting to real accusations leveled against me by others.

[leftstreet]

62. +1

Oh and here is something crazy, how's about NOT telling Jews what is and isn't anti-Semitic, ESPECIALLY if you (general use) are one of those who bellow about "mansplaining" and "whitesplaining". Maybe try not to "gentilesplain'".

[cab67]

68. The person who made this comment completely missed my intent.

As I said above - most of those who’ve implied I’m an antisemite are either gentiles or people whose religious background I don’t know.

I wasn’t directing my comment (which I stand by) toward Jewish people. At all.

[redgreenandblue]

98. "NO ONE has said ANYTHING"

https://democraticunderground.com/100218343086#post38

[Iggo]

53. Thanks for trying.

[cab67]

66. And for succeeding? You're welcome!

[kimbutgar]

69. My biggest criticism of Israel is Bibi's leadership.

[treestar]

70. Indeed, very tired of the resort to that

neither side is reasonable or even tries objectivity or empathy for the other, none of them have any intent whatsoever to live with the other.

[malaise]

71. Great post

Rec

[Beastly Boy]

75. I've been trying to stay away from this thread, but my self-control ain't what it used to be.

So here it goes:

"Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but..." is a trigger phrase. There is no or's if's or but's about self-defense - its a fundamental and unconditional human right. Qualifying this right with any condition is not "kosher" when it comes to antisemitism, especially if the qualifier makes this human right conditional on how Israel chooses to defend itself.

I am sure you didn't intend this to be offensive, but... please understand that the Jews' right of self defense is routinely challenged and has been denied throughout history, leading to countless tragedies. The phrase itself may not be antisemitic, but it certainly raises red flags among those who have come across it one time too often. And believe me, when you are a Jew or an Israeli, you encounter the instances of such phraseology far too often.

[cab67]

76. I've never challenged Israel's right to defend itself.

I happen to think that one of the strategies Israel is currently taking is foolish. That's all. I say it not as a "but..." claim, but because I want to see Hamas defeated, and I worry that cutting power to Gaza might work against that goal.

I do understand how many Jewish people react to the "they have the right, but...." But the quasi-anti-Israeli implication of that is actually the opposite of the point I was trying (perhaps clumsily) to make.

[Beastly Boy]

77. Perhaps not intentionally, but

"Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but..." is a challenge in itself. The "but" in your statement is a challenge to the basic, unequivocal and universal nature of the right to self defense.

Take it as you wish. I am not here to each you a lesson. I just wanted you to know why someone would interpret your post as offensive. What you make of it is up to you.

[cab67]

82. I take it as a misinterpretation.

I'm sorry, but I do.

Any time I've criticized Israel, I've been very specific about the policy or action I criticized.

I know how the "but..." bit can be triggering. I've seen people in my own circle (including my in-laws) react as such. Often, it's merited. But not always - I hoped that, by specifying the particular act or policy to which I objected, my comment could be taken at face value, as a critique of a particular act done by the government of Israel and not a put-down of Israel as a nation.

I just wish people would read the entire context of what someone is saying. In my case, the words are coming from an informed perspective.

Honest to whatever deity or deities might or might not exist, nothing I wrote was intended to be like "I've got friends who are black, but..."

[Beastly Boy]

84. Have yo ever been offended?

In your estimation, who is the better judge of whether the offence took place, the offender or the offended?

Mind you, I am not offended by your remarks, so you don't have to justify your actions to me. I am giving you what I hope is useful information that may explain why people may be offended by your remarks. It's information. It is not meant to be judgemental. Use it or dismiss it, it's your choice.

[cab67]

85. Understood and honestly appreciated.

[Happy Hoosier]

96. What CAN be said?

I fully support Israel’s right to self defense… i do not consider the colonization of the occupied territories self-defense. Neither do I consider Nutandyahoo any kind of champion for Israeli democracy… he is a self-interested autocrat. I work with partners in Israel almost every week. I am worried for them. I know that at least one has been called up.

It IS important that we not conflate criticism of the Israeli government with criticism of Israel or Jews in general. In this country at least Jews are largely my allies!

[Beastly Boy]

99. Anything can be said. And anything said can be objected to.

My point was that Israel's right to self defense is not conditional. Period. End of argument.

i do not consider the colonization of the occupied territories self-defense either. And I never suggested it is. My objection to the OP is on completely different grounds: the OP's affirmation of Israel's absolute right to self defense is undermined when it is followed by comments questioning Israel's actions in self defense.

Imagine someone saying "Yes, Joe has the right to self-identify as Jane, but Joe's gender affirming surgery is a blunder." A bit of an awkward analogy but it illustrates the principle: the latter part of the sentence undermine the initial premise. Joe's rights become hypothetical rather than unconditional.

[Happy Hoosier]

100. Not conditional is a pretty broad term

You do not mean that Israel can take whatever action it wishes in the name of “self defense.” But what you said can be interpreted that way.

I do not think your analogy works. Joe’s gender affirmation had no effect on anyone else. Israel’s activities can and do constitute activities that affect others.

Having said that, there is nothing that justifies Hamas’ atrocities, and now is not the time to both sides it.

[Beastly Boy]

103. I mean Israel may take any actions necessary and available to defend itself.

When the threat is existential (Hamas wants to destroy Israel), the unconditional nature of self-defense, like the natufre of self-preservation, become evident. Not what Israel wishes, but what Israel is required to do to defend itself, no more, no less.

I did warn that my analogy is awkward, but that it illustrates the principle, the principle being that a latter part of the statement undermines the initial affirmation. It is the principle, not the circumstances that I was trying to convey.

[Texasgal]

79. I wish I could say what I really

feel about this situation here on DU. But, to be honest... I simply do not need the online pile on or criticism. I'm feeling quite emotional about this anyway. I refuse to make it make it worse.

I applaud you and respect your thoughts on this. You are very brave.

[The_Casual_Observer]

87. This forum is leaning in the direction of leveling

Gaza and letting God sort it out. I'm out.

[Celerity]

93. Don't leave. Push back.

[Bettie]

91. Thanks for this

glad someone said it. I try not to wade into this, because even suggesting that the people in Gaza and the West Bank are, well, people is often seen as an attack on Israel.

[Joinfortmill]

94. I agree. People are people and why they vote for who they do is a mystery to me..

Netanyahu sucks, but he's been hanging onto to power in Israel for a long time now. Like us, they got what they voted for. It's a cautionary tale for us all.

[randr]

95. Constructive criticism is a positive force for change

The situation in Israel is very similar to the one we are in with relationship to Russia. We both have enemies we have been dealing with for more than half a century. And in that time our leaders have not found a way out of these conflicts.