Narcissists who avoid treatment

[BeyondGeography]

Per Scientific American:

The unwillingness to seek therapy is especially true of “malignant narcissists,” who, in addition to the usual characteristics, exhibit antisocial and psychopathic features such as lying chronically or enjoying inflicting pain or suffering on others.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-narcissism-science-confronts-a-widely-misunderstood-phenomenon/

[calimary]

1. You wouldn't be describing that orange guy, by any chance?

[BeyondGeography]

3. I'm out of ideas at this point

I’ve turned to trained professionals.

And furthermore :

Malignant narcissists often pose the greatest challenge for therapists—and they may be particularly dangerous in leadership positions, Diamond notes. They can have deficient moral functioning while exerting an enormous amount of influence on followers. “I think this is something that's going on right now, with the rise of authoritarianism worldwide,” she adds.

[leftstreet]

2. Excellent article. Well worth the read

Thanks for posting

[Ocelot II]

4. If you're a narcissist you don't think anything is wrong with you

(or it's too painful to contemplate that something might be), so of course you don't seek treatment. You are wonderful; it's all the other people who have problems.

[debm55]

5. From personal experience, I know this to be so true, Ocelot II

[Unwind Your Mind]

6. My understanding too

Also from personal experience

[BeyondGeography]

8. The article is basically a debate about grandiosity and vulnerability

One school of thought maintains these are the two faces of narcissism, the other says these two traits don’t overlap.

From the link:

Most psychologists who treat patients say that grandiosity and vulnerability coexist in the same individual, showing up in different situations. Among academic psychologists, however, many contend that these two traits do not always overlap. This debate has raged for decades without resolution, most likely because of a conundrum: vulnerability is almost always present in a therapist's office, but individuals high in grandiosity are unlikely to show up for treatment. Psychologist Mary Trump deduces, from family history and close observation, that her uncle, Donald Trump, meets the criteria for narcissistic as well as, probably, antisocial personality disorder, at the extreme end of which is sociopathy. But “coming up with an accurate and comprehensive diagnosis would require a full battery of psychological and neuropsychological tests that he'll never sit for,” she notes in her book on the former president.

Now brain science is contributing to a better understanding of narcissism. It's unlikely to resolve the debate, but preliminary studies are coming down on the side of the clinicians: vulnerability indeed seems to be the hidden underside of grandiosity.

[Ocelot II]

10. I read the article, and while it may be true that grandiose narcissists

suffer from some sort of repressed vulnerability, so far nobody seems to know what to do with them. They usually don't seek treatment, and it's not clear that any treatment works. What do we do with destructive narcissists like TFG who achieve positions of power? So far it seems like all that can be done is prosecute them for crimes after the fact.

[BeyondGeography]

11. Of course

Every era has its Hindenburg rides; we’re on one and it won’t end well. That doesn’t make diagnosing the problem pointless. If science can help us better deal with recurring nightmares in the future so much the better.

[LiberalFighter]

9. Narcissist definitely don't think anything is wrong with them.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

12. Sums up every single one of them I've dealt with

nt

[Turbineguy]

18. From what I learned,

once the narcissism takes over, treatment is percieved as a mortal threat.

[hlthe2b]

7. Not only do NPD refuse to engage with treatment---there is no accepted treatment that has

undergone any level of comparative validation for efficacy, much less clinical trials. The field has made significant strides in diagnosing and differentiating, for sure, but recognizing the disorder and effectively treating it are worlds away. And then there is the issue of how best to intervene against the harm to others--those influenced and indoctrinated-- as we see right now-- and not only in the US.

If we survive Trump and his like, I hope priority is given by those in many many disciplines to learning how to effectively prevent this phenomenon in the future.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

14. Since they don't and won't seek help

Last edited Sun Aug 27, 2023, 12:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Because they think nothing is wrong with them, the chances of finding a way to treat them is effectively nil. It falls on everyone else to "police" them.

Take it from someone who knows, dealing with them can take only these forms:

1. Sever them from your life without mercy. No phone calls, emails, texts, family dinners--nothing. It's really the only sure-fire way to stop them from making your life miserable.

2. If you can't avoid them because you weren't aware of what you were getting into (it happens even to the most careful people), then your only recourse is to get away as much and as far as you can, then deal with them in the coldest, most dispassionate way imaginable. Learn to let voice mail take all calls from the narcissist's number, or that of any stranger (they ALL attempt to use phone contact as an opening salvo to get claws back into you). Don't respond to their letters or voice mail or texts unless you absolutely must.

Never be alone with them, never mind within physical reach. If real-time contact is necessary, do it by phone, or in a public place, if it must be face to face. When you're in contact, you cannot get angry or lose your cool, and you can't let them use all their usual tricks of distraction and manipulation to take everything off them and put it on you. You have to stay laser-focused on your goal in a discussion with them. "We can discuss that later. Right now, I need to know when you will do X." Learn that phrase, because you'll be using it a whole lot with a narcissist you've broken free of, but must remain in contact with (shared child custody is the big one).

3. Whether you fall under #1 or #2, you may need to consider going semi-off-the-grid (moving/changing e-contact methods/changing where you shop and when, etc), and upping your physical security--everything from taking self-defense classes to getting or upgrading your home alarm and surveillance system. You want to make it as hard for the narcissist to find you and get to you as possible. Do no underestimate the things they will do to try to insinuate themselves back into your life again. Because there's nothing they won't do, if they want something. You have to keep that in mind, always. I had a malignant narcissist who was manipulating, or attempting to manipulate, every member in my family to force me to be in contact with him again. That's how low they will go--they will use and abuse anyone, even little old ladies, if they think it will get them what they want.

I had to learn all of this, the hard way.

[BlueIn_W_Pa]

21. I had to do this against my ex

3 years ago when the court finally removed my sons from her custody. They are so much more happy now that they live with me and don't have to deal with the constant abuse.

[Irish_Dem]

13. Trump is not a narcissist with antisocial features.

He is a full blown sociopath as well as a narcissist.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

17. It's been my understanding

From therapists, that anti-social + narcissist = Psychopath.

Here's but one who defines it that way:

[Irish_Dem]

20. Psychopath is not a diagnosis.

It is thought to be a subset of sociopathy, but either not enough research
or agreement about it yet.

Currently Trump meets the criteria for two personality disorders:

Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
The definition of NPD states that it comprises of a persistent manner of grandiosity, a continuous desire for admiration, along with a lack of empathy. It starts by early adulthood and occurs in a range of situations, as signified by the existence of any 5 of the next 9 standards below. A person needs to exhibit 5 of the criterial to be diagnosed with the disorder.

-A grandiose logic of self-importance
-A fixation with fantasies of infinite success, control, brilliance, beauty, or idyllic love
-A credence that he or she is extraordinary and exceptional and can only be understood by, or should connect with, other extraordinary or important people or institutions
-A desire for unwarranted admiration
-A sense of entitlement
-Interpersonally oppressive behavior
-No form of empathy
-Resentment of others or a conviction that others are resentful of him or her
-A display of egotistical and conceited behaviors or attitudes

Symptoms & Criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder

A. Disregard for and violation of others rights since age 15, as indicated by one of the seven features:

-Failure to obey laws and norms by engaging in behavior which results in criminal arrest, or would warrant criminal arrest
-Lying, deception, and manipulation, for profit or self-amusement
-Impulsive behavior
-Irritability and aggression, manifested as frequently assaults others, or engages in fighting
-Blatantly disregards safety of self and others,
-A pattern of irresponsibility and
-Lack of remorse for actions

B. The person is at least age 18,

C. Conduct disorder was present by history before age 15

[milestogo]

15. I knew a guy who said he was a narcissist.

He figured it out because every one of his relationships with women ended the same way. Although he could be quite charming and fun he was very self-centered and lacked empathy. Women would dump him within a year. He didn't think it was something he could change, so he anticipated that his whole life would be a series of relationships that end badly.

[KentuckyWoman]

16. Is it actually treatable?

Really I think the only way to deal with that is to wipe them out of your life if at all possible. And if not, refuse to come out and play.

[BlueIn_W_Pa]

22. From personal experience and multiple court battles against the ex-wife with doctors

there are ways that might help to mitigate it, but there is NO CURE. The drugs only hide what was readily seen before without them.

There's a lot of correlation between Bipolar and narcissists, and that's not treatable either.

[nolabear]

19. As a former therapist I can safely say

I don’t think I ever saw a malignant narcissist successfully. They were either there because they were ordered to be, because they didn’t want to lose something, like a job or relationship, because their actions had gotten them into some kind of trouble they wanted out of, etc. Treating them was torture, though I tried, and tried to respect them. It was often really for the protection of someone else. The feeling wasn’t mutual. I was clearly stupid, deluded, incompetent, or else they tried to manipulate me until I poked at the broken spot, then things went south.

The investment they have in maintaining the narcissistic defense is total. The most deluded person is them—if they allowed themselves to think about their perceived flaws those flaws would destroy them. That’s the belief. I honestly felt for whomever they’d been before they had to create this seamless, unyielding facade to “protect” them. Nothing goes in or out, really, bad or good.