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Mr. Scorpio

(73,631 posts)
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 06:53 PM Jun 2023

A different perspective about the submersible incident, if you don't mind...

It's not as if I'm willing to make light of those tragic deaths, because I'm not.

However, in my own perspective as a Black man living in America, I have gone through life understanding that... Well, there are some things that only white people will do... Especially, some rich white people who were willing to pay an exorbitant amount of money to invoke an entitlement to cheat death inside of a carbon fibre death trap 20,000 feet under the sea. All for what, to brag about the experience of taking a gander a murky, century old shipwreck on a flat screen TV? Frankly, I can't help but to regard that as pure hubris and a level of selfishness that's utterly inconceivable.

To me, their fate is not just a cautious tale of having more money than sense. It's a tableau to the intersection of basic white entitlement and excessive wealth.

And what was it not? It wasn't an exercise of existential imperative, like those poor refugees who were lead to their tragic deaths on Mediterranean.

Most people, without either the sense of entitlement or access to great and disposable wealth find much more reasonable pursuits to escape the endemic boredom of existence... They fly to Vegas and blow the mortgage money and the inheritance of their progeny, they go white water rafting on the Colorado River while NOT regarding the dynamic nature of the water levels at any given time, they attempt to play tag with an annoyed bison in Yellowstone Park for Instagram clout. And after all that, most go home to resume their not as freaking loaded humdrum existence. They don't think about the giddy fun of blowing the equivalent of a two bedroom ranch house in the midwest to look at a hole in the ground on flat screen TV at the bottom of the freaking ocean.

Again, as a Black man living in America, the level of excessive risk taking by those poor souls currently communing with Davy Jones is clearly a white people's thing. Setting the aside the notion of how whiteness is centered, especially the aspirational nature of rich, privileged whiteness, one must understand that traveling to the bottom of the ocean in a windowless death trap isn't a universal desire.

Rich white people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.

The late submersible crew and passengers may have paid a quarter million each for the privilege of becoming deep sea fish food, but considering the unnecessary rescue operation that ensued, we all as taxpayers have had to foot a bill. If these same rich and whiter-than-white captains of run away capitalism went up into the stratosphere inside of a chartered spacecraft that would have had the bad taste to explode like a Roman candle over a vast swath of populated areas, we all as taxpayers would have had to foot the bill. If Peter Thiel actually built his proposed floating ode to libertarian delusional thinking in the Pacific and it sank, taking more rich white people down with it, we all as taxpayers would have to foot the bill.

It doesn't take much to extrapolate that the risk taking of bored, rich white people can easily elevate to the level of a public menace.

And it's not going to stop... It's only going to get more risky, due to the persistence of rich white aspirational idealism. Elon Musk wants to rely on a portion of taxpayer funds and resources to strand bored rich white people on the Planet Mars.

Doesn't anyone see the problem with all of this? Again, I'm merely speaking outside of the centeredness of whiteness and outside of frames of reference of vast, unencumbered wealth.

I wouldn't know how to stop the problem from becoming bigger, because like of all of you, I'm merely a spectator. Despite that, to me, it's a presents the clear and imperative necessity of the vast white majority to get the white, privileged few under control. The romanticism of gazing lovingly at a corroded shipwreck will not do any of us any favors in the long run.

Anyway... May all the poor souls, rich and poor alike, rest in eternal peace.








220 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A different perspective about the submersible incident, if you don't mind... (Original Post) Mr. Scorpio Jun 2023 OP
Ironically, the CEO of OceanGate (now RIP) said "We don't want old white guys piloting our sub" WarGamer Jun 2023 #1
This message was self-deleted by its author DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #60
The pilot was 77 yrs old known as Mr Titanic. Historic NY Jun 2023 #153
Old white guys would have cost too much. shrike3 Jun 2023 #166
He must not have had any mirrors in his house. eom littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #189
Why bother with mirrors when one doesn't soldierant Jun 2023 #198
It's not that I disagree with your entire premise senseandsensibility Jun 2023 #2
Definitely leans wealthy MALE. I'd consider sky-diving, but never something like that... hlthe2b Jun 2023 #16
Considering there were no females in that dive....... nt LiberalFighter Jun 2023 #19
There have been on others. CBS Sunday mornning did a piece on it some time back... hlthe2b Jun 2023 #22
I totally agree!!!! EOM Scottie Mom Jun 2023 #47
Agree nt spooky3 Jun 2023 #53
I would confess to Jimmy Hoffa's burial location DBoon Jun 2023 #112
Thank you montanacowboy Jun 2023 #3
Kicking. MontanaMama Jun 2023 #4
K&R brer cat Jun 2023 #5
very well put Recycle_Guru Jun 2023 #6
It was indeed a "vanity" excursion, plain and simple..... anciano Jun 2023 #7
Yes! It was also macabre. Who spends $200,000 plus to go to a graveyard? littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #36
Yes rebe303 Jun 2023 #58
❤️ littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #73
This. calimary Jun 2023 #76
Thank you. I got started & had couldn't quit. It has been an emotionally charging experience. ❤️ littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #79
3d mapping DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #96
That was a lie. They were a bare bones operation. littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #102
The boast about breaking the rules will ALWAYS bother me. calimary Jun 2023 #116
During the coverage of this incident... Hugin Jun 2023 #126
ROV? COTS? KPN Jun 2023 #168
Remotely Operated Vehicle & Commercial Off The Shelf. n/t Hugin Jun 2023 #171
Moreover, the OGate operators lied to prospective customers. Several articles reveal that people allegorical oracle Jun 2023 #216
As it turns out, it was scientific - no carbon fiber subs with off-the-shelf parts. hatrack Jun 2023 #136
... Hugin Jun 2023 #140
Hi, Hugin. littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #180
Humans have a propensity... Hugin Jun 2023 #183
Thanks! ❤️ littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #188
hatrack, I wish I understood what you mean but this phrase doesn't make sense to me. littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #177
That is a hypothesis grantcart Jun 2023 #203
... markie Jun 2023 #8
Preach brother HAB911 Jun 2023 #9
Two of them were Pakistani, but I take your point. meadowlander Jun 2023 #10
Yes, I was going to say the same thing. Not all were white. Sky Jewels Jun 2023 #74
was that being reported? i only heard the family wanted privacy nt orleans Jun 2023 #105
There have been some reports like this one: Sky Jewels Jun 2023 #152
I linked to the BBC's report in post 10. There's profiles and pics on all the people who died. meadowlander Jun 2023 #173
I keep thinking of the woman who cried because after saving up for 30 years, her ride down tblue37 Jun 2023 #11
She is on the one someone else has in a video link here. BlackSkimmer Jun 2023 #155
Spot on analysis, I think BunnyMcGee Jun 2023 #12
Male, Mr. Scorpio. Overwhelmingly male. OTT, spot on observations. Hekate Jun 2023 #13
+1 spooky3 Jun 2023 #52
If a black man had the money, he might do it treestar Jun 2023 #14
Maybe Clarence and Ginny Thomas will do it? LiberalFighter Jun 2023 #20
Don't forget Kanye AwakeAtLast Jun 2023 #104
He has lost much of his money. tblue37 Jun 2023 #157
Is he still eating? We should start a Go Fund Me for the poor fellow Bucky Jun 2023 #194
that would be so sad. jcgoldie Jun 2023 #120
Hmm NJCher Jun 2023 #123
Perhaps black people face so much risk in their everyday lives that they don't need to pay for it. barbaraann Jun 2023 #21
as much risk as going down in that submersible treestar Jun 2023 #23
Not that much for sure, but way more than white people, IMHO. n/t barbaraann Jun 2023 #26
Yes, that much....for sure. Sogo Jun 2023 #65
Risk of Death by Accident is orders of magnitude higher DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #70
Black billionaires probably don't have much more risk that other colors DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #71
I would guess that there are so few black billionaires that the risk couldn't be assessed. barbaraann Jun 2023 #97
Black people directly experience the results of risks that fail DBoon Jun 2023 #114
Like when banks fail and the taxpayers bail them out. barbaraann Jun 2023 #117
or when some crazy business idea fails ... DBoon Jun 2023 #118
Seriously, go to an ER some evening. The racial diversity will warm your heart. Bucky Jun 2023 #195
One example that might indicate more cautious behavior by the victims of racism. barbaraann Jun 2023 #219
Right on Ways Jun 2023 #25
No, he wouldn't. NotVeryImportant Jun 2023 #33
Greed and avarice elias7 Jun 2023 #15
+1 appalachiablue Jun 2023 #212
The last thing the captain said was, jaxexpat Jun 2023 #17
link? nt (or are you joking?) nt orleans Jun 2023 #108
The arrogance of rich white men. Murphyb849 Jun 2023 #18
Risk taking is hardly a white man's game Zeitghost Jun 2023 #24
American Psychological Assn guidelines for counseling men and boys spooky3 Jun 2023 #55
Men are certainly more risk seeking Zeitghost Jun 2023 #56
This kind of stupidity is different. People have always wondered what it Wonder Why Jun 2023 #100
I think the bulk of this tragedy LuvLoogie Jun 2023 #27
I'm not sure how you can draw that conclusion regarding the son Zeitghost Jun 2023 #31
I read a blurb where the sister said he LuvLoogie Jun 2023 #34
Okay Zeitghost Jun 2023 #41
According to his aunt, he didn't want to go... PunkinPi Jun 2023 #133
Well, at least 2 of the tourists were Pakistani, so we don't know... getagrip_already Jun 2023 #28
Shahzada Dawood, 48, and Suleman Dawood, 19 meadowlander Jun 2023 #67
Suleman's mother is white JI7 Jun 2023 #145
Who cares? BlackSkimmer Jun 2023 #156
Follow the conversation JI7 Jun 2023 #162
Again, I see race having nothing to do with this. BlackSkimmer Jun 2023 #165
I didn't say race had anything to do with them going on that thing JI7 Jun 2023 #167
But that's the premise of the OP and what I was responding to. meadowlander Jun 2023 #174
The person you replied to made some comments about racial traits JI7 Jun 2023 #209
Rich idiots come in every skin tone. meadowlander Jun 2023 #210
My comment has nothing to do with rich people JI7 Jun 2023 #211
Barack Obama's mother is white. nt LexVegas Jun 2023 #175
We used to celebrate adventurous risk taking Zeitghost Jun 2023 #29
Adventure versus Commercial Venture Random Boomer Jun 2023 #82
I'm not sure if you noticed Zeitghost Jun 2023 #111
Culture or economics? NJCher Jun 2023 #125
You're right. American Experience tells the story this way... littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #191
It's an anti-rich sentiment. NH Ethylene Jun 2023 #143
We still do, just not blindly and for reasons of vanity. Caliman73 Jun 2023 #179
That's just it Zeitghost Jun 2023 #182
...on second thought, watching Peter Thiel's project sink beneath the waves might be most intriguing calimary Jun 2023 #30
K&R ismnotwasm Jun 2023 #32
Rich White Man Voodoo Beetwasher. Jun 2023 #35
❤️ littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #37
The Navy knew they popped, but didn't want to divulge secrets? Nice Shanti Shanti Shanti Jun 2023 #38
The Navy shared the info Zeitghost Jun 2023 #44
So what's the theory on the banging noises being heard now? Orcas banging pots n pans? Shanti Shanti Shanti Jun 2023 #122
nature is full of noise Bucky Jun 2023 #196
Explorers explore, but I'd ride with boring old white guys like Bob Ballard and James Cameron Shanti Shanti Shanti Jun 2023 #39
Same here Zeitghost Jun 2023 #46
👍👍👍 Rebl2 Jun 2023 #80
They actually crashed into the Titanic and Scrivener7 Jun 2023 #124
James Cameron has been down 3x deeper, to 35,787 fucking feet , that's some wild shit, he rules Shanti Shanti Shanti Jun 2023 #207
That's nice. But he did crash into the Titanic and damage it and his submersible. Scrivener7 Jun 2023 #217
Thank you for your well thought out post, Mr Scorpio. debm55 Jun 2023 #40
I'm sure the departed had secret Swiss bank account numbers to give to St Peter. Beakybird Jun 2023 #42
Lordy, not everything has to be framed in terms of black and white Goodheart Jun 2023 #43
The man is just giving us his thought's and perspective as a non billionaire black person. Ligyron Jun 2023 #77
It's definitely a pampered rich people problem, but 40% of the people onboard weren't white Bucky Jun 2023 #107
Race inthewind21 Jun 2023 #161
This! All. Day. Long. Forever! !!! Higherarky Jun 2023 #170
Interesting. Yes, race is a social construct. But... Bucky Jun 2023 #192
Agree 💯% evemac Jun 2023 #45
This is an amazingly good post! Scottie Mom Jun 2023 #48
Is it white male or just male. 3Hotdogs Jun 2023 #49
Yusaku Maezawa says 'Hold my beer' Red Mountain Jun 2023 #50
+1 betsuni Jun 2023 #64
Can I just point out what a stupid insignia this company has? Bucky Jun 2023 #193
Thank You... Thank You My Brother djacq Jun 2023 #51
I spoke to my dad and he too was angry at the "selfishness" ecstatic Jun 2023 #54
It is a tragedy, with some strange details. love_katz Jun 2023 #57
I have been fascinated by Titanic all my life Maeve Jun 2023 #59
Maybe this obsession with the Titanic is an issue in itself. LisaM Jun 2023 #66
It's the hubris I find so fascinating Maeve Jun 2023 #72
Your words feel racist DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #61
Not racist - RevBrotherThomas Jun 2023 #141
How so? ismnotwasm Jun 2023 #185
You are right to question this point DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #205
Not racist. I think it's clear the OP meant it's a cultural phenomenon, But... Bucky Jun 2023 #197
Maybe not racist Zeitghost Jun 2023 #204
It is hard to talk about things truthfully without being accused of being racist DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #206
This message was self-deleted by its author Bucky Jun 2023 #213
Nicely stated and true to the point. Thanks Firestorm49 Jun 2023 #62
Speaking for yourself . . . OneBro Jun 2023 #63
You are defining these people according to some nasty stereotypes. milestogo Jun 2023 #68
+1 Takket Jun 2023 #88
It seems the "company" thought the sub could do it! DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #92
Well, he was not objective. milestogo Jun 2023 #93
That was a very enlightening foray Higherarky Jun 2023 #178
An unfortunate exercise in 'eisocentric' logic grantcart Jun 2023 #69
"We live in a sea of stupidity." Haggard Celine Jun 2023 #91
When you explain it like this, of course, employ the phrase "eisocentric" Bucky Jun 2023 #199
POST 200: Your comment is the best post in this thread Bucky Jun 2023 #200
Excellent post. BlackSkimmer Jun 2023 #220
Well said. I've had similar thoughts. byronius Jun 2023 #75
Similar DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #86
I believe your words, as extremely well written as they are, Sogo Jun 2023 #78
+1 betsuni Jun 2023 #84
Here's my take; karma's a bitch Tarc Jun 2023 #81
This ain't karma Bucky Jun 2023 #201
That is...exactly what I said Tarc Jun 2023 #208
I agree... Pototan Jun 2023 #83
I see the problem with it -- It's called stupidity vlyons Jun 2023 #85
It's one thing to go down to do science... Kablooie Jun 2023 #87
k&r Tom Yossarian Joad Jun 2023 #89
Thank you.. well said. mountain grammy Jun 2023 #90
The sub was controlled by a video game controller. The Jungle 1 Jun 2023 #94
Recommended. H2O Man Jun 2023 #95
My reaction- and my perspective - were very similar. I have no pity or sympathy for wealthy people Martin68 Jun 2023 #98
I am surprised at the depth of anger here concerning this tragic event. Jack-o-Lantern Jun 2023 #99
Some may feel that the victims brought it on themselves. mwb970 Jun 2023 #138
Everything is warped to feed grievance by those taken over by it. Hortensis Jun 2023 #218
Thank you. May they all rest in peace. That said, most media promote views of whose deaths are more ancianita Jun 2023 #101
Safety be damned? Never go there! czarjak Jun 2023 #103
We think alike. Bluethroughu Jun 2023 #106
Stupid overconfidence comes in every color of humanity. This is NOT a 'white people' thing Bucky Jun 2023 #109
Agree NowISeetheLight Jun 2023 #127
This was not a good analogy. NotVeryImportant Jun 2023 #163
Yes, indeed Wild blueberry Jun 2023 #110
Wow! I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you said. CaptainTruth Jun 2023 #113
Truth is, I really don't give a rat's ass about some assholes going... TreasonousBastard Jun 2023 #115
In the original Titanic disaster orangecrush Jun 2023 #119
Not really . . . . hatrack Jun 2023 #137
Thanks orangecrush Jun 2023 #150
With climate change kaotikross Jun 2023 #121
FASCINATING thread. I don't agree with you on all points, Mr. Scorpio Scrivener7 Jun 2023 #128
What I find the most striking... Hugin Jun 2023 #142
That's a point. Scrivener7 Jun 2023 #149
Let's not forget NJCher Jun 2023 #129
Reminded me of this. retread Jun 2023 #130
Beautifully put. 100% agree Goddessartist Jun 2023 #131
Brilliant bit of writing, Mr. Scorpio. It belongs in a national publication! Vinca Jun 2023 #132
"Get the rich white priviliged few under control". lark Jun 2023 #134
Seeing the Titanic would fill me with awe. So would the view from atop Mt. Everest. BUT....... Siwsan Jun 2023 #135
Excellent post. I think there should be an Obscenely Wealthy Tax on everyone making more than LaMouffette Jun 2023 #139
I always enjoy your writing. you have laid out exactly what's been ruminating in my brain. Javaman Jun 2023 #144
Spot on IbogaProject Jun 2023 #146
People die trying to get selfies JI7 Jun 2023 #147
Absolutely! kooth Jun 2023 #148
A great OP malaise Jun 2023 #151
Two thumbs way up. PelicanScot_V3 Jun 2023 #154
Amen DonCoquixote Jun 2023 #158
Let's not forget about all the unburied corpses littering the mountain as well... Mr. Scorpio Jun 2023 #176
I hate to break it to you Zeitghost Jun 2023 #184
Actually Snackshack Jun 2023 #159
Great piece. Thanks. SpankMe Jun 2023 #160
Two of the passengers were Pakistani. Or does being "rich" shift them into the White category? question everything Jun 2023 #164
I appreciated this very much. Thank you. shrike3 Jun 2023 #169
another perspective maliaSmith Jun 2023 #172
+1 DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #215
One of the best discussions we've had here in a long time. Excellent OP! littlemissmartypants Jun 2023 #181
judge not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character Dorn Jun 2023 #186
I think the racial characterization of what drove these people Red Mountain Jun 2023 #187
It's also a cautionary tale to all rich men Warpy Jun 2023 #190
No!! Don't tell rich people not to do this Bucky Jun 2023 #202
You just want it to be in your home country so that many of your family & friends will all be there DontBelieveEastisEas Jun 2023 #214

Response to WarGamer (Reply #1)

shrike3

(3,800 posts)
166. Old white guys would have cost too much.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 12:02 PM
Jun 2023

Old guys of any color tend to have expertise, and you pay for expertise. I

senseandsensibility

(17,138 posts)
2. It's not that I disagree with your entire premise
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 06:57 PM
Jun 2023

but I would include male. I am a white female and this afternoon I told my husband that I would give up everything I own to NOT go on such an excursion.

hlthe2b

(102,374 posts)
16. Definitely leans wealthy MALE. I'd consider sky-diving, but never something like that...
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:30 PM
Jun 2023

Claustrophobia and submerged--my two biggest nightmares combined.

But yeah, these guys were definitely highly privileged, but if I understand their thinking, they really believe their exploration to be the ultimate courageous act--and with some benefit to the future. While I don't doubt that the desire was based on self-aggrandizing, I'm sure the aspect that could lead to scientific advances was a good bit of their self-justification.

And while there are many women who are risk-takers, explorers, and even adrenaline junkies, I do think this is overwhelmingly a male thing--especially where such tremendous expense is incurred.

hlthe2b

(102,374 posts)
22. There have been on others. CBS Sunday mornning did a piece on it some time back...
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:40 PM
Jun 2023

David Pough (spelling?) interviewed a woman executive who had gone multiple times only to have weather or other issues cause postponements. She was just obsessed.

DBoon

(22,397 posts)
112. I would confess to Jimmy Hoffa's burial location
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 12:00 AM
Jun 2023

if threatened with such an expedition.

Not that I have a clue where Mr. Hoffa is buried, but I would say anything to get out of it

anciano

(1,003 posts)
7. It was indeed a "vanity" excursion, plain and simple.....
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:14 PM
Jun 2023

you can view the Titanic wreckage on YouTube for free!

littlemissmartypants

(22,805 posts)
36. Yes! It was also macabre. Who spends $200,000 plus to go to a graveyard?
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:59 PM
Jun 2023

It's grotesque in every sense of the word. What is the point?

It wasn't research. It wasn't a sacred display of reverence. It was exactly a handful of rich white dudes gawking through a tiny window from a space they couldn't turn around in without passing gas on one another.

For that money I want a cushy pillow and a foot rest and I won't be relishing the thought of seeing a place were a huge tragedy and emmense human suffering took place. I want blue sky, butterflies and rainbows.

Many men, at least as I've been privileged to learn, appear to be more stupid and self centered than ever. Single mindedness combined with my way or the highway. Talk too much, like everyone wants to hear what they think, while having petty sophomoric thoughts. Spare me.

The owners were deceptive, dumb, reckless, greedy and selfish braggarts. They deserve every bit of the hell that's likely about to rain down and ruin them.

The women who loved these men are probably saying things like "I told him not to go." The women who didn't, but were joined to these men by necessity, wouldn't admit it but they're probably thinking "Thank God, I thought he'd never leave me be."

Thoughts no less bizarre than those had by someone who believed it was a good idea to ride an uncertified underwater coffin to a graveyard and expected to resurface unscathed.

calimary

(81,487 posts)
76. This.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:21 PM
Jun 2023

Definitely this.

Especially since we can drive to several local graveyards, breathing comfortably all the way.

96. 3d mapping
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:19 PM
Jun 2023

"It wasn't research"?

I believe I read an article where one of the expeditioners was excited that he was part of a mission that would be helping to create some 3d something or other.

littlemissmartypants

(22,805 posts)
102. That was a lie. They were a bare bones operation.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:43 PM
Jun 2023

They decided NOT to install a beacon for safety to save weight and "complexity" which probably wouldn't have helped them anyway. Not with a catastrophic implosion.

One has to wonder if the jackass owner might have even been suicidal. He was mentally deficient without doubt. Bragging about doing construction on the cheap like it was something admirable. Sounds cuckoo to me.

He knew the risks compounded exponentially with each dive but cut corners on safety. Numerous experts in submersible development wrote letters trying to discourage his recklessness but they were IGNORED. The experts!

So, NO, it wasn't research. Not unless they took their three ring binders in their trapper keepers. It barely deserves to be compared to a school science project. I've seen some of those that were better planned an executed than what these wannabes conjured up.

calimary

(81,487 posts)
116. The boast about breaking the rules will ALWAYS bother me.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 12:12 AM
Jun 2023

But then again, I’ve never been much of a rule-breaker to begin with. And if I ever was, I sure didn’t want to brag about it.

Hugin

(33,207 posts)
126. During the coverage of this incident...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 07:16 AM
Jun 2023

I kept being reminded of an episode of a reality show I had watched years ago. Two technician/engineers were challenged to build a deep sea tethered ROV. It was the only episode shown where they failed.

Even though they were only sending their device down to a few thousand feet they discovered that the properties of materials that they took for granted on the surface took on catastrophic consequences at those depths. During their last attempt the insulation of the COTS cable they were using for their tether became porous at the pressures. They pulled up a snapped cable and lost their ROV.

No, there was nothing learned from this dive of the OceanGate vessel other than to re-enforce FAFO. I am surprised it lasted as long as it was claimed.

allegorical oracle

(2,357 posts)
216. Moreover, the OGate operators lied to prospective customers. Several articles reveal that people
Sat Jun 24, 2023, 07:36 AM
Jun 2023

were told by Rush that the dive excursion is "safer than crossing the street."

hatrack

(59,592 posts)
136. As it turns out, it was scientific - no carbon fiber subs with off-the-shelf parts.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 08:34 AM
Jun 2023

See, we learned something!

littlemissmartypants

(22,805 posts)
180. Hi, Hugin.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 01:46 PM
Jun 2023


I did a search, not including scholarly articles, for the phrase "bless the chimps" to try and understand your meaning. The results led me back to the reply on DU. It wasn't intended for me anyway. So I'm just going to leave it at that.

❤️

Hugin

(33,207 posts)
183. Humans have a propensity...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 01:55 PM
Jun 2023

to send chimps into dangerous situations they wouldn't put themselves in.

I feel like we owe them a word of gratitude and praise for their involuntary involvement.

On, hatrack's post... I believe the theme is along the lines of "... play stupid games, win stupid prizes... ". But, that's only a guess.



❤️

littlemissmartypants

(22,805 posts)
177. hatrack, I wish I understood what you mean but this phrase doesn't make sense to me.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 01:33 PM
Jun 2023
no carbon fiber subs with off-the-shelf parts


No carbon fiber subs with off-the-shelf parts, what?

...should be used for tourism?

...have remained structurally sound underwater after __________ excursions?

...have been designed with the intention of being certified as meeting scientifically, previously established, structural safety specifications?

... as an isolated quote is just a fragment of an incomplete null hypothesis?

...currently exist intact on the planet?

...should be considered as more than expensive playtoys?

...have ever been designed by competent and thoughtful scientists but only by cavalier men with no reverence for human life?

...will ever make sense and should never be built again?

...have been anything more than a FAFO meme?

...your explanation here __________

If your intention was nothing more than to be cryptic, I apologize for asking for clarification.


Also, the something learned is a lesson as old as time and is going to be a "something" as long as humans fail to comprehend that...stupidity can kill you.

Rock on!
❤️pants


grantcart

(53,061 posts)
203. That is a hypothesis
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 07:27 PM
Jun 2023

To check the hypothesis I propose an identical trip filled with SC justices who take seats on commercial transport because they would otherwise be empty to test it.

Sky Jewels

(7,140 posts)
74. Yes, I was going to say the same thing. Not all were white.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:16 PM
Jun 2023

The poor 19-year-old kid didn't even want to go, but went along with it for Father's Day.

tblue37

(65,488 posts)
11. I keep thinking of the woman who cried because after saving up for 30 years, her ride down
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:21 PM
Jun 2023

kept getting cancelled because of weather. She finally got to go, on the same ride as that reporter, I think. But I wonder what she is thinking now.

 

BlackSkimmer

(51,308 posts)
155. She is on the one someone else has in a video link here.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 11:03 AM
Jun 2023

Where they were trying to find out how to work the controllers. She seemed nervous, but sure got over it fast.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
14. If a black man had the money, he might do it
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:26 PM
Jun 2023

This is human behavior. When there are enough black billionaires, one will do something like this. The astronauts roll is quite diverse now.

Because of skin color we have to get them under control? We all need to get the billionaires under control, regardless of our skin color or theirs.

AwakeAtLast

(14,134 posts)
104. Don't forget Kanye
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:59 PM
Jun 2023

He was the first person of color to come to my mind as a person who is flagrant with his money.

Sogo

(4,993 posts)
65. Yes, that much....for sure.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:52 PM
Jun 2023

The risk is death. That could be the fate of many/most young black males driving a car and getting stopped at any time for some "traffic violation."

barbaraann

(9,163 posts)
97. I would guess that there are so few black billionaires that the risk couldn't be assessed.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:21 PM
Jun 2023

But probably wealth would indeed trump skin color for the top tier.

DBoon

(22,397 posts)
114. Black people directly experience the results of risks that fail
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 12:06 AM
Jun 2023

Privileged white men manage to reap the benefits of taking risk while ensuring others take the downfall.

When you worldview involves shifting risk to the poorer and less powerful, risk taking feels like a powerful drug.

DBoon

(22,397 posts)
118. or when some crazy business idea fails ...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 12:30 AM
Jun 2023

... and the employees all lose their jobs but the CEO gets a golden parachute and gets to move on to his next spectacular fail

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
195. Seriously, go to an ER some evening. The racial diversity will warm your heart.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 06:57 PM
Jun 2023

People do stupid, reckless things all the time. Melatonin is not a variable. Not having money is only a variable in which form of stupidity people have the options to demonstrate. Having or not having police or bank loan officers target you for unfair treatment doesn't automatically gift humans with wisdom or cautious behavior.

barbaraann

(9,163 posts)
219. One example that might indicate more cautious behavior by the victims of racism.
Sat Jun 24, 2023, 04:16 PM
Jun 2023

"The talk."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_talk_(racism_in_the_United_States)

Perhaps I'm just basing my thoughts on my many years living in the South and how I think I would act if I were black. I think I'd have a constant elevated level of fear and caution.

Ways

(20 posts)
25. Right on
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:45 PM
Jun 2023

You nailed it! There is this thing called free will. It doesn’t matter what your skin color is .

 

NotVeryImportant

(578 posts)
33. No, he wouldn't.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:56 PM
Jun 2023

One key point you're missing in the OP is the point that "Rich white people are built differently."

Did you miss that? If you did, now that you're aware of it, what do you think that means?

elias7

(4,027 posts)
15. Greed and avarice
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:30 PM
Jun 2023

Wife and I talking about this at dinner tonight. No sympathy from me. Big money bypassing regulations in search of bigger money. They are invulnerable because of their wealth, they think.

And all that money for rescue. Would have solved the homeless problem in some major city or gone for some good cause elsewhere.

jaxexpat

(6,849 posts)
17. The last thing the captain said was,
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:31 PM
Jun 2023

"For the last time, do not touch the valves. Keep your hands off the valves or you'll get us all ki....."

Zeitghost

(3,869 posts)
24. Risk taking is hardly a white man's game
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:44 PM
Jun 2023

Since the dawn of man, people have taken risks to explore the world around us and beyond. Some did it for money, some for glory and some for the sake of adventure. Most were men, likely for a mix of social and biological reasons, but they came from all different races and ethnicities. And yes, many never returned.

As noted upthread, there were two men of color on board this vessel and as I noted there have been countless other non-white men and women who have taken extraordinary risks during an adventure.

We can certainly have a discussion on risk taking and it's costs and benefits to society. I'm just not sure where race factors into this and I know of no scientific evidence for the theory that white men are any less risk adverse than other men. Maybe I'm wrong and there are studies out there, if so I'd love to see them.

spooky3

(34,480 posts)
55. American Psychological Assn guidelines for counseling men and boys
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:30 PM
Jun 2023

Cites a ton of research showing that as a group, generally men take greater risks than do women as a group, controlling for other factors. In some cases, this is so extreme as to cause major problems. Highly recommend these guidelines—they are online.

Zeitghost

(3,869 posts)
56. Men are certainly more risk seeking
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:34 PM
Jun 2023

There is a spectrum obviously, but it's generally true. I've just never seen anything that suggests a racial factor.

Wonder Why

(3,252 posts)
100. This kind of stupidity is different. People have always wondered what it
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:32 PM
Jun 2023

was like in space or under the sea or to fly or ... but people like this don't do it for those reasons IMHO. They do it for bragging rights.

"We went to Europe"

"Yeah but we went to Antarctica and few people have ever done that"

"We flew to the end of space and nobody else in this room has done that"

"But we did the ultimate. We went into space AND we took 13000 foot deep undersea trip to see the Titanic. Top that!*

*A couple sued the company. They had done a Blue Origin trip (for $250K each) and had booked and paid for the Titanic plunge. They were put off because of delays and were awaiting their turn so they sued not too long ago.

The more expensive it is; the more daring it is; the fewer the number of people who could or have done it - the more they want to do it. It's not science. It's not exploration. It's not humanity's desire to find out what's out there. It's purely money to buy what others can't. That's why it always seems to be white people that do it. They want a golden opportunity because they have the gold.

LuvLoogie

(7,034 posts)
27. I think the bulk of this tragedy
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:48 PM
Jun 2023

is laid at the feet of the company. They were deceptive as to the deep sea worthiness of their vessel. They provided slick propaganda with a liability waiver to cover for the cut corners and lack of preparation.

Notwithstanding the father and son being Asian, I think there would be takers from any demographic if cost were not a factor.

Yes the rich feel invincible and make hubristic choices, but so do poor young people. It's a different set of risks that don't always get airplay.

That young man was not yet addicted to the instant gratification his father's wealth provided. He got on board to please his father. He didn't want to go.

Most rich white men are content to be rich white men and are risk averse where their bodies and lives are concerned.

I'm neither rich nor white, but I'd get in a NASA craft. I would not get in a Space X craft. And I'd give a nod to all those white test pilots and astronauts that died making space flight better and safer. And I think black men in America would have done the same had they the opportunity in the 50s and 60s.

Every family has its fools.

Zeitghost

(3,869 posts)
31. I'm not sure how you can draw that conclusion regarding the son
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:55 PM
Jun 2023

I would have jumped at the chance to do something like this today (albeit with a properly run operation) and at 19 there would have been absolutely no question.

PunkinPi

(4,878 posts)
133. According to his aunt, he didn't want to go...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 08:13 AM
Jun 2023

he went because the trip was on Father's Day and he wanted to make his dad happy.

Azmeh Dawood — the older sister of Pakistani businessman Shahzada Dawood — told NBC News that her nephew, Suleman, informed a relative that he "wasn't very up for it" and felt "terrified" about the trip to explore the wreckage of the Titanic.

But the 19-year-old ended up going aboard OceanGate's 22-foot submersible because the trip fell over Father's Day weekend and he was eager to please his dad, who was passionate about the lore of the Titanic, according to Azmeh.

Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/titanic-submersible-shahwood-suleman-family-tragedy-rcna90678

getagrip_already

(14,838 posts)
28. Well, at least 2 of the tourists were Pakistani, so we don't know...
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:48 PM
Jun 2023

We dont know what racial traits they exhibit (at least I have never seen a picture of them). Some are very dark skinned.

I'm sure there are wealthy risk takers of all races.

But I get your point. And as an old white guy, but not a billionairie, I wouldn't have gone anywhere in that science project. I know too much about technology and the sea to play that kind of roulette.

 

BlackSkimmer

(51,308 posts)
156. Who cares?
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 11:04 AM
Jun 2023

What in the world does the ethnicity of a passenger's mother have to do with anything?

JI7

(89,269 posts)
162. Follow the conversation
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 11:56 AM
Jun 2023

The OP is about white men and someone replied there were Pakistanis on that thing also. There was question about how they looked . I just mentioned that his mother is white to explain his physical appearance.

 

BlackSkimmer

(51,308 posts)
165. Again, I see race having nothing to do with this.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 12:00 PM
Jun 2023

I realize that's probably an unpopular opinion.

President Obama's mom was white, correct?

JI7

(89,269 posts)
209. The person you replied to made some comments about racial traits
Sat Jun 24, 2023, 01:47 AM
Jun 2023

and dark skin. I was just pointing out that the son is lighter because his mother is white .

JI7

(89,269 posts)
211. My comment has nothing to do with rich people
Sat Jun 24, 2023, 02:04 AM
Jun 2023

or even the submersible.

I was responding to the comment about physical appearance .

Zeitghost

(3,869 posts)
29. We used to celebrate adventurous risk taking
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:52 PM
Jun 2023

I grew up, not long ago ('80s & 90's) celebrating people like Amelia Earhart. People who pushed the bounds of technology and human achievement at great personal peril.


Now I see attitudes like many in this thread and others shame the same behavior.


While I have my own opinion on the matter, I'm mostly fascinated at the societal change in attitude.

Random Boomer

(4,168 posts)
82. Adventure versus Commercial Venture
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:41 PM
Jun 2023

Amelia Earhart wasn't shilling a "safe" airline flight to passengers paying her to take them with her.

Zeitghost

(3,869 posts)
111. I'm not sure if you noticed
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 11:37 PM
Jun 2023

But much of the negativity is directed at the customers as well as the operator.

Similar attitudes have been applied to plenty of risky, non-commercial activities. It's an interesting shift in culture.

littlemissmartypants

(22,805 posts)
191. You're right. American Experience tells the story this way...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 04:54 PM
Jun 2023

...snip

Only in 1932, after Amelia Earhart flew across the Atlantic Ocean solo, did she feel she had earned her lavish praise.

Though she was only the second person in the world to accomplish this (after Lindbergh), Amelia Earhart did not slow down. Through the 1930s, she broke more flying records, wrote another book, promoted commercial airlines, and worked as a lecturer, career advisor to female college students, and Aviation Editor at Cosmopolitan Magazine.

In 1937, Amelia decided to go for the one record in aviation no one, man or woman, had ever attempted before — to fly around the world at the equator. An extremely dangerous and unprecedented flight, it required months of preparation and a lot of luck. In the end, Amelia had neither. Exhausted from a grueling schedule of promotions, speeches and interviews, Amelia Earhart took off from Florida, making it all the way to New Guinea. After a few days rest, Amelia continued on, only to lose radio contact while trying to locate and land on the tiny Howland Island in the middle of the Pacific. On July 2, 1937, Amelia Earhart and her navigator Fred Noonan, after nearly 22,000 miles into the around-the-world flight, disappeared without a trace.

Amelia Earhart was adored because she was daring and successful in a man’s world, and because she was magnificently promoted in the press and newsreels of the time. In the end, her courage cost her her life, but her groundbreaking contributions to flight and women’s struggle for equality made Amelia Earhart an enduring American hero.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/earhart/

Watch Chapter One here

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/earhart-chapter-1/

❤️

NH Ethylene

(30,817 posts)
143. It's an anti-rich sentiment.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 09:36 AM
Jun 2023

I think we still admire, to some degree, the crazy guy that takes a sailboat on a 'round the world trip, that kind of thing.

For very valid reasons we strongly resent people who have lots of money and spend it on frivolous things.

Caliman73

(11,744 posts)
179. We still do, just not blindly and for reasons of vanity.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 01:45 PM
Jun 2023

We still celebrate people taking risks for the BENEFIT of HUMANITY. Earhart, the Wright brothers, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, and those who went before them into risky and unknown ventures. There is always a certain amount of self aggrandizement with "explorers" but we understand that and see them as intrepid.

The submarine thing was not done for the benefit of humanity. Even people in the community of Deep Sea exploration are understanding what this was about. Similar to Besos and Musk with their "space exploration". It is wealthy people playing with toys. People who scoff at the collective of humanity, who think they are special, who when they get in trouble, call out and expect the collective to rescue them or bail them out.

We are shaming the behavior or exploration. We are shaming the arrogance, lack of attention to safety, and the hypocrisy of hating government, then expecting government to save them.

Zeitghost

(3,869 posts)
182. That's just it
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 01:55 PM
Jun 2023

Private space exploration and deep sea diving are benefiting humanity and also involve wealthy men playing with their toys and looking for immortality in the history books. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And while in this particular incidente, the proper safety protocols were not followed, it's the same driving forces behind this operation and better run ones like Cameron and Ballard operate.

So while some may only be shaming the arrogance of this operation, I have seen far too many posts over the years that are not limited to certain extreme examples and instead criticize all such adventures.

calimary

(81,487 posts)
30. ...on second thought, watching Peter Thiel's project sink beneath the waves might be most intriguing
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:54 PM
Jun 2023

to watch - even if my taxes have to help pay for it. But only as long as he goes down with it.

ismnotwasm

(42,014 posts)
32. K&R
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 07:56 PM
Jun 2023

There is informed risk taking —it is, the year 2023 and modern science is a thing. There is uninformed risk taking. And then there is sheer entitlement risk taking

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
196. nature is full of noise
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 06:59 PM
Jun 2023

It might be the debris field items clunking against each other as it scatters. Or it might be shifting tectonic plates.

 

Shanti Shanti Shanti

(12,047 posts)
39. Explorers explore, but I'd ride with boring old white guys like Bob Ballard and James Cameron
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:00 PM
Jun 2023

You know, guys that really knew what they were doing, not this "creative thinker", glub glub

Zeitghost

(3,869 posts)
46. Same here
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:15 PM
Jun 2023

The issue is not the spirit of adventure or the risk taking. The issue is poor management and execution.

Beakybird

(3,333 posts)
42. I'm sure the departed had secret Swiss bank account numbers to give to St Peter.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:05 PM
Jun 2023

They are in heaven right now, in a gated community, away from all of the riff raff angels.

Ligyron

(7,639 posts)
77. The man is just giving us his thought's and perspective as a non billionaire black person.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:24 PM
Jun 2023

I found them enlightening and agree with many of his points.

Two of the passengers were definitely not white, but they were rich as hell, so they half qualify.

Anyway, other than that...

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
107. It's definitely a pampered rich people problem, but 40% of the people onboard weren't white
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 11:03 PM
Jun 2023

Americans get a little too obsessed about race. I hear this from my non-American friends all the time.

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
161. Race
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 11:43 AM
Jun 2023

Is bogus to start with. It's been latched on to and expanded so people can make themselves feel better and separate themselves from "Others". FFS Hawaiian/Pacific Islander is now considered a race. And gee, it's pretty much ALL based on skin color! Imagine that.

A good read about Race and genetics.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737365/

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
192. Interesting. Yes, race is a social construct. But...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 06:36 PM
Jun 2023

I think we can all agree our perceptions of race matter and profoundly affects peoples' lives, helpfully as well as harmfully.

I would argue that race is at least as much about culture as it is about skin color. Hispanics present a relatively wide spectrum of skin hues (as do black Americans), but tend to get lumped together by culturally shaped preconceptions.

My main point was that the OP was attributing to whiteness & wealth the follies of callously disregarding basic safety rules. People wreck as many Mazdas as Ferrris. There's a rainbow of stupid out there, as any trip to the ER will validate. Losing sight of that commonality in the human race is a very American cultural trait.

evemac

(132 posts)
45. Agree 💯%
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:14 PM
Jun 2023

I do think it trends more white male, though. I don't think as many women feel the same need to participate in expensive, dangerous and reckless behaviors.

Scottie Mom

(5,812 posts)
48. This is an amazingly good post!
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:19 PM
Jun 2023

So well written and so well reasoned.

Thank you so much for sharing this.

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
193. Can I just point out what a stupid insignia this company has?
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 06:44 PM
Jun 2023

Seriously, is this supposed to represent how they'll be serving pepperoni pizza on the flight around the moon?


.


I don't want to sound negative, they're all going to die a brief horrible silent death.

ecstatic

(32,731 posts)
54. I spoke to my dad and he too was angry at the "selfishness"
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:28 PM
Jun 2023

of the men involved and couldn't believe they would pay that much money to go down there. I didn't really stick around to hear his full opinion and perspective. I guess for me, I'm more focused on the irony and horror aspects. They are literally a part of the Titanic wreckage now. Forever.

love_katz

(2,584 posts)
57. It is a tragedy, with some strange details.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:36 PM
Jun 2023

1. Apparently, the US Navy had some underwater listening devices in the area. They heard sounds that would correlate to a catastrophic implosion about the time that communications were lost with the submersible. 2. Since the sounds were not proof of the submersible implosion, a search had to be performed. 3. That submersible looked cheap, hokey and jerry rigged. Its hull wasn't properly tested and the view port was only certified for a depth of about 1300 feet which is not anywhere close to the depth of the Titanic wreckage which is at about 13,000 feet. The submersible seemed to have been way underpowered for dealing with strong ocean currents, and it was steered by a game controller that you would use in your home. I could go on with more details, but the whole design, combined with the attitude of the CEO screams of an unbelievable lack of respect for the extreme dangers of the deep sea environment. 4. It seems to have disappeared, but before the Coast Guards press conference about the finding of the debris field, I watched a couple of videos that seem to have come from the company's website. The one with the CEO inside the submersible struck me as particularly disturbing. I couldn't see how anyone would be persuaded that going anywhere in that thing would be safe, let alone going down to 13,000 feet. 5. When all is said and done, these folks have paid the ultimate price for their trip. 6. I am grateful that I am not a rich white man. Exploring and taking some risks is natural, but I have no interest in extreme anything. The price for failure is considerable, and we're all human. Humans make mistakes, but some risky situations have no margin for error. 7. People too often don't think about what the possible outcome of their choices and actions. The result is to put our various public services at risk and to cost huge amounts of taxpayers money. 8. This incident occurred in International waters, outside of the jurisdiction of any countries regulating body. The Coast Guard would never have let this company take paying passengers on their tin can vessel. 9. I would stop the insanity of rich white crazy people, but I don't have anywhere the money or political clout to do that. 10. I don't understand them, either. I am white, but both poor and old.

Maeve

(42,288 posts)
59. I have been fascinated by Titanic all my life
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:38 PM
Jun 2023

I grew up reading a book about it written the year it sank (still have that book) and the horror/tragedy has haunted me for 50+ years.
That said, you couldn't PAY me to go down there...it is both scary and sacred and none but drones need visit that grave. It is the grave of hubris, over-weening pride and stupid confidence.

LisaM

(27,832 posts)
66. Maybe this obsession with the Titanic is an issue in itself.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:56 PM
Jun 2023

There are thousands of shipwrecks lying at the bottom of our lakes and seas. The Titanic has almost been fetishized (I am not really casting stones, it interests me too). If people want to view shipwrecks, there are many, many safer options.

Maeve

(42,288 posts)
72. It's the hubris I find so fascinating
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:06 PM
Jun 2023

The sheer belief that we are masters of our fate, when we are subject to human weakness and blindness. The 'unsinkable ' was doomed from her beginning, but the willfully blind would not see. Never enough lifeboats, never enough caution.

61. Your words feel racist
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:42 PM
Jun 2023

"Rich white people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone. "

I think the "Rich White People" turned out in the same way that any group would that was Rich and not "Unprivileged".

I don't think we can start implying that their "White" DNA makes them a threat; without it leading to bad things.

Your writings frighten me.

RevBrotherThomas

(838 posts)
141. Not racist -
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 09:14 AM
Jun 2023

Their "white DNA" does not make them a threat - their white privilege does. The multi-billionaires of the world are overwhelmingly white.

205. You are right to question this point
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 08:11 PM
Jun 2023

I've tried to think of ways to describe reality without being accused of sounding racist and bigoted, and come up empty.

Perhaps in this case we could say,

Rich Privileged people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.
Instead of using "Rich White people "

And, perhaps instead of "built differently", we could say, "developed differently" or "or grown into beings that are built differently"

Somehow pointing out that being white is not the essential reason; Although, due to the history, it is whites that have experienced privilege here in the USA.

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
197. Not racist. I think it's clear the OP meant it's a cultural phenomenon, But...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 07:06 PM
Jun 2023

then again, so are our definitions of race.

There is a lot of culturally American projection going on in this thread. Doing reckless things is something that people from all demographics and income levels do all the time, from reckless driving to trying drugs to voting for Republicans. Rich people only have the resources for seeking out more exotic, headline-grabbing means of doing stupid shit.

But the thesis that irrational risk taking is somehow unique to the white upper class experience does not hold up to mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Zeitghost

(3,869 posts)
204. Maybe not racist
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 08:04 PM
Jun 2023

But the idea that engaging in risky or reckless behavior is unique to wealthy white men comes from a place of racial bias.

As you so clearly point out, people of all racial, ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds do reckless things. It's just the rich guys who grab the headlines when they say "hold my beer".

206. It is hard to talk about things truthfully without being accused of being racist
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 08:27 PM
Jun 2023


Rich white people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.

So, what if someone said,

Poor black people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.


And explained it by saying things like this:
Blacks are coming from generations of oppressed ancestors and being surrounded by poverty, themselves, their friends and their family, and having unfair bias when trying to find a job, etc.


They have a sense of being abused, ridiculed and having been taken advantage of.
Most people, without either the sense of oppression or living in poverty find much more reasonable pursuits to escape the endemic boredom of existence.

Poor black people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.


Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #206)

OneBro

(1,159 posts)
63. Speaking for yourself . . .
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 08:47 PM
Jun 2023

. . . and what YOU would or would not do as ONE black man with your lived experience makes sense, but there is not ONE black person on the plan who can speak for all or even most black people.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
68. You are defining these people according to some nasty stereotypes.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:02 PM
Jun 2023

Most of the group were lifelong explorers. They did not undergo this expedition because of boredom, but because of long-cultivated scientific interest and curiosity. Without knowing anything about them, you are hurling insults like "hubris", "selfishness", and "entitlement". You know nothing about these people.

Oh, are Pakistanis considered white people now? Or are they Asians?

How do you know that the families of the deceased, who are very wealthy, will not pay back the agencies that spent money looking for their relatives? How do you know that they have not already offered? How do you know that they will not offer to do so?

I'm sorry that you see the attempt to rescue these human lives as a "problem". I'm sorry that you saw the attempt to rescue them as "unnecessary". Yes, there are migrants desperate to leave poor countries who are drowning at sea. They should be rescued. But the fact that they are sometimes left to die has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that there was a great effort to rescue the passengers of the doomed submersible.

There are times when rescues seem extravagant, and it seems disproportionate. People take huge risks, and others risk their lives to save them. But is doing nothing really an alternative? If you know that five people are trapped in a submersible at the bottom of the ocean is it really an option to look the other way?

When planes go down, countries spend millions looking for survivors and wreckage. They do so knowing that there will likely be no survivors. Flying may be extravagant for some people, but it is routine for others.

What happened this week was a tragedy. Read the obituaries and try to think of them as human beings, not your stereotype of rich white people.


Takket

(21,628 posts)
88. +1
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:53 PM
Jun 2023

I agree completely. We know nothing about the dead except that they were rich and white (except they all weren't) and that seems to be all that is necessary to imply they got what they deserved for their hubris and entitlement.

I find it particularly unfair because the people who died were lead to believe this was SAFE and they were LIED TO. They were murdered in my opinion. The company knew the sub couldn't do what they said it could.

92. It seems the "company" thought the sub could do it!
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:08 PM
Jun 2023

Stockton Rush was in the Titan

The Titan's company is OceanGate

Stockton Rush founded OceanGate
Stockton Rush is/was the CEO
Stockton Rush virtually was the company.

So, I don't believe the company knew it couldn't do it.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
93. Well, he was not objective.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:14 PM
Jun 2023

Unfortunately he didn't listen to what some people were telling him, and it cost him his life.

Higherarky

(637 posts)
178. That was a very enlightening foray
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 01:38 PM
Jun 2023

into your thought process.

I have learned you are quite different from who you have previously presented yourself to be. Thank you for showing us who you truly are.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
69. An unfortunate exercise in 'eisocentric' logic
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:03 PM
Jun 2023

Exegesis is the practice of taking meaning from an action and building an analysis outward. (Ex like the word exit)

Eisogesis is the opposite, starting with a conclusion and picking facts that support your conclusion.

This is now so common I have coined the term "eisocentric logic" to describe it

In this case your eloquent and passionate essay is completely at odds with the facts.

None of the paying passengers were "rich white Americans ". Two were Pakistani, one British and one French. The only cre member was white, but not rich.

We can find examples in all races. There is the case of Herman Cain. A survivor of multiple cancers (one stage IV) he gets on a plane to go to a Trump rally in the middle of a pandemic when thousands are dying by the hour, takes no precautions and is dead weeks later.

It would have been stronger if you had not referred to race and only made it about how class insulates people from making rational risk reward calculations but then we would need to factor in Jonestown where hundreds of poor people embraced a cocoon of irrationality that was all risk with little rewards.

I have a simpler conclusion: we live in a sea of stupidity. It's really mind boggling and not populated by any single race, class or nationality, it is an equal opportunity disease.

Haggard Celine

(16,856 posts)
91. "We live in a sea of stupidity."
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:07 PM
Jun 2023

Very well put! That's actually the lesson to be learned from this. We have to make sure that we aren't part of that stupidity.

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
199. When you explain it like this, of course, employ the phrase "eisocentric"
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 07:09 PM
Jun 2023

But when you warn people about shit like this, you should say "You so centric"

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
200. POST 200: Your comment is the best post in this thread
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 07:11 PM
Jun 2023

and I'm stealing "eisocentric logic"


(I can only fault you for not saying "we are sinking in a sea of stupid" since obviously not everyone manages to live in the sea)

86. Similar
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:50 PM
Jun 2023

I understand the premise.

But, I believe we should always go out of our way to point out that white and black are not built much differently at the basic human level.


Sogo

(4,993 posts)
78. I believe your words, as extremely well written as they are,
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:32 PM
Jun 2023

could distill down to one main point that you stated early on: "a cautious tale of having more money than sense."

Boredom and risk-taking strike within all races and, as has been pointed out, mostly by the male gender. It's just that some have the money to indulge their risk-taking in a more publicized way. I honestly don't see a difference in the risk these men took and those of more modest means who wrap a bungie cord around their ankles and jump off a high bridge, or those who race their cars in traffic. The risk in all these cases is death; only the price of admission varies....And it would be taxpayer funded responders that recover the bodies and clean up the wreckage in every case.



Tarc

(10,476 posts)
81. Here's my take; karma's a bitch
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:39 PM
Jun 2023

I read an observation today that framed it like this.

The obscenely rich ignore safety protocols and warnings in indulge in what we can refer to as "tragedy tourism" of a sunken ship well-known for the disproportionate number of lower-class people who died. They died due to, oh, wait for it...the ultra-rich of a century ago who ignored safety protocols and cut corners so the caviar and champagne could flow freely on an ocean voyage.

These people died this week, gawking at the watery graves of mostly poor people, and now they will only be remembered in history as a footnote to that.

Fuck 'em.


Bucky

(54,068 posts)
201. This ain't karma
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 07:12 PM
Jun 2023

This is just straight up simple consequences. This is called winning stupid prizes.

Pototan

(1,198 posts)
83. I agree...
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:44 PM
Jun 2023

...I don't get it. It's not that life is without risk, but I'm all for reducing that risk, especially if you're blessed with a great deal of wealth.

Flying on a plane, driving a car, swimming in the ocean are all risky endeavors. But a normal oerson reeduces that risk. I fly non-stop to reduce the take offs and landings, I don't drive drunk or drive in a car with a reckless driver. I don't smoke or drink to access. I swim close to shore. In other words, life is not risk free, but we certainly can reduce those risks.

And to have a billion US dollars to increase your risks makes no sense to me.

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
85. I see the problem with it -- It's called stupidity
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:47 PM
Jun 2023

Why anyone would want to visit a 100+ yr wreck at the bottom of the sea is beyond my understanding. And after learning that the operators of that vessel poo-pooed standard submarine inspections and certifications, I hope they get their ass sued and charged with negligent homicide.

Kablooie

(18,641 posts)
87. It's one thing to go down to do science...
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 09:51 PM
Jun 2023

or even to experience the alien environment that has been next to us for eternity...
but to go down to look at an old wrecked luxury ship is pretty crass.

Martin68

(22,890 posts)
98. My reaction- and my perspective - were very similar. I have no pity or sympathy for wealthy people
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:27 PM
Jun 2023

who throw away the price of a house on an opportunity to buy unique bragging rights. Short spaceflights and hikes up Everest are other examples. It's the ultimate excuse for conspicuous consumption under the cover of "adventure" and "experience." The fact that two of the wealthy assholes on board were Indians is beside the point. I don't like "crazy" rich asians any more than I like "normal" white assholes. It's the ultimate expression of class and entitlement on any continent.

Jack-o-Lantern

(968 posts)
99. I am surprised at the depth of anger here concerning this tragic event.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:28 PM
Jun 2023

I am surprised at the depth of anger here concerning this tragic event.
It was simply a bad ending to a risky adventure…nothing more.

mwb970

(11,366 posts)
138. Some may feel that the victims brought it on themselves.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 08:54 AM
Jun 2023

They indulged in incredibly risky behavior at great expense for reasons that do not make sense to me. I am having trouble feeling sympathy.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
218. Everything is warped to feed grievance by those taken over by it.
Sat Jun 24, 2023, 10:32 AM
Jun 2023

Five men die while playing. Nothing.
Five wealthy elites die while playing -- and The People, as always, are the ones to suffer and be exploited.

Substitute "liberals" for "wealthy" to get tRumpist populism instead of LW class version.

DEPTH and BREADTH of anger.

"Watch for mean people."

Democracy.

ancianita

(36,137 posts)
101. Thank you. May they all rest in peace. That said, most media promote views of whose deaths are more
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:37 PM
Jun 2023

profitable for them to report; therefore, whose deaths humans can know about, or get the chance to care about.
Not all media manage our helpless spectatorship, but most media do.


Bluethroughu

(5,195 posts)
106. We think alike.
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 10:59 PM
Jun 2023

These dummies went down in a sub outfitted with a Nintendo remote controller, weight with some discarded jobsite steal, and some grab handles from camping world.

The lesson is we need to stop believing wealth equals intelligence or we need less regulation because the rich know what their doing, because THEY DON'T.

This is not a skin color issue, we've seen our fair share of minority rich dummies too. It is a mental illness driven by the bored and lazy with too much money.

We need to claw back every IRS tax change to at least President Kennedy's Era or further to President FDR.

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
109. Stupid overconfidence comes in every color of humanity. This is NOT a 'white people' thing
Thu Jun 22, 2023, 11:21 PM
Jun 2023

Google "Chinaka Adoezuwe". His stupidity didn't come from whiteness or wealth. It came from God.

Sure rich people who live ostentatiously are more likely to die from wealth-enabled ostentation. But a foolish disregard for safety doesn't depend on money, only opportunity. Something like a 200,000 Americans die in accidents determined to be "unintentional injuries" each year. I'm certain you'll find that to be a representative sampling of American male demographics.

NowISeetheLight

(3,943 posts)
127. Agree
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 07:21 AM
Jun 2023

I don't think it's a white or black or anyone thing. It's hubris and stupidity. These people happened to have a ton of money and it's the Titanic so it made the news. The reality is though stupid decisions are plentiful, not just one race or wealth level. Poor people do stupid stupid stuff as well. It just doesn't make the news.

Before I retired I was in hospital finance. Before that medical coding. I'd code hospital charts and have to assign ICD9 ECodes for cause of injury. When ICD10 hit they became ZCodes. Some of the stupid stuff I saw people do that resulted in them ending up in the hospital was amazing. I'd think "OMG... and they're allowed to vote and reproduce".

Some people think they are invincible. Some are risk takers. Some are just freaking idiots. I sometimes joke that I'm pro-choice because some people SHOULD NOT reproduce.

CaptainTruth

(6,601 posts)
113. Wow! I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you said.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 12:04 AM
Jun 2023

VERY well written, & I'm bookmarking your post so I can come back & fully digest it.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
115. Truth is, I really don't give a rat's ass about some assholes going...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 12:08 AM
Jun 2023

to the bottom of the ocean just to say they've been there. We've always had intrepid explorers, and we've had idiots going that way for the ride. That's part of what it means to be human. We still have hundreds of people every year climbing Everest off season, and thousands of people braving Appalachian slopes after the rescue teams have gone home. "Braving" the beaches with no lifeguards around is part of this idiocy, too.

And I know of no studies about how one's racial makeup makes one more or less susceptible to this idiocy. I suspect that if we visited Africa, we would find the will to be this idioticy as common as it is here.

The point is simply that we are all human, and act and react as humans do. We take calculated risks all the time, but we don't have to look for them.

orangecrush

(19,620 posts)
119. In the original Titanic disaster
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 01:17 AM
Jun 2023


The rich and poor drowned side by side.

Perhaps there is a moral there.

kaotikross

(246 posts)
121. With climate change
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 06:40 AM
Jun 2023

There are more than enough natural disasters to possibly take us out these days. I'll pass on the crazy, thanks. But I get it, when you're rich and you've did all the drugs, had all the high priced sex, bought all the stuff.. what's left? The rich are so jaded that we might just see Elon and Zuck going tooth and nail in a cage match.

Scrivener7

(51,014 posts)
128. FASCINATING thread. I don't agree with you on all points, Mr. Scorpio
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 07:23 AM
Jun 2023

but I do agree generally. I have little sympathy for them. I do think ultra rich men, who tend to be white, are way too eager to waste our common resources and that represents an extreme cost to the rest of us. I do not believe there was any "science" to be had from this moronic venture. It was about boredom and ego. The exact same images they were scheduled to see on the flat screen inside that soup can could have been viewed on a flat screen in a living room somewhere.

But what an eye opener the replies are! Many attribute virtues and motivations to the men that are patently false. Many show fear at complaints against white hubris, which is one of the major sources of pain in our world. I say that as a white person because it is incontrovertible. And that's not coming from from liberal guilt. It's from a cursory reading of history.

Hugin

(33,207 posts)
142. What I find the most striking...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 09:21 AM
Jun 2023

Is that these people were exercising choice.

Something that is being systematically denied to women in this country currently.

lark

(23,156 posts)
134. "Get the rich white priviliged few under control".
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 08:14 AM
Jun 2023

Sorry, but how does one get their owners, the ones who control just about everything (their rent, their job $$), who think they are nearly Gods and who think we are nothing since we don't have enough $$, and who are happy to jail or kill us for our sins - especially if we are women - to do anything?

They keep everyone down, it will take everyone working together to make changes.

Siwsan

(26,291 posts)
135. Seeing the Titanic would fill me with awe. So would the view from atop Mt. Everest. BUT.......
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 08:25 AM
Jun 2023

There are some things best left in the 'too risky' category. I've got much better things to do with my time and money.

LaMouffette

(2,039 posts)
139. Excellent post. I think there should be an Obscenely Wealthy Tax on everyone making more than
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 09:04 AM
Jun 2023

fifty million dollars a year. And that money would go directly to improving public education from kindergarten through higher education and be distributed to schools on a needs basis so that all children would have a better chance of securing the American Dream, which is currently just a cruel fable for so many.

Javaman

(62,534 posts)
144. I always enjoy your writing. you have laid out exactly what's been ruminating in my brain.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 09:38 AM
Jun 2023

I'm fully convinced that great wealth breeds a mental disorder known as blind greed.

they think only of themselves and nothing beyond that.

Thanks for writing this.

IbogaProject

(2,841 posts)
146. Spot on
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 10:14 AM
Jun 2023

The way to fix this is clear costs to be searched for, rescued or recovered. We need a stronger tax code with as steeply progressive rise. We need to find ways to reasonably limit the protection from liability corporations and their shareholders enjoy.

JI7

(89,269 posts)
147. People die trying to get selfies
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 10:24 AM
Jun 2023

There are many cases of people dying and getting harmed doing stupid shit. These guys had money to do things most can't afford.

People have even died because of the way they did "gender reveals" .

kooth

(219 posts)
148. Absolutely!
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 10:36 AM
Jun 2023

I keep shaking my head about stupid, narcissistic things like this. I wish the recent tragedy with the migrants who drowned got as much effort to save them and news coverage. Thanks so much for this post!

PelicanScot_V3

(70 posts)
154. Two thumbs way up.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 10:53 AM
Jun 2023

You captured my thoughts on the subject brilliantly and wrote it much better than I could have. Bravo!

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
158. Amen
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 11:15 AM
Jun 2023

Superior wealth only breed superior ambition, which is to say, stupid ambition. Right now, on Mt. Chomolungma (aka the mountain a white guy named EVEREST) there are literal tons of trash on the mountain peak left by rich white travelers who needed to "climb it" aka be led up there by a native This is done so that they can fulfill their fantasies of begin superheroes ,even though Superman or Spidey make their living by humbling rich bad guys who are rightfully shown in the comics as VILLAINS, as opposed to worshipped like they are in real life.

Mr. Scorpio

(73,631 posts)
176. Let's not forget about all the unburied corpses littering the mountain as well...
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 01:30 PM
Jun 2023

At some point, the not-so-rich people who would have been normally tasked to mount some daring rescue effort to retrieve those gilded fallen have decided that the expense, effort and risk of bringing those formerly rich corpses down the mountain wasn't worth it.

The corpses of the formerly well-to-do remain and now serve as both landmarks for other potential well-to-do bored adventurers and reminders of the foolhardiness of climbing that mountain. In a way, the dead are serving a more useful purpose in death than they had while climbing the mountain when alive.

It's clear sign that the rules for imperiled rich white people can change if people choose to change them.

Zeitghost

(3,869 posts)
184. I hate to break it to you
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 01:58 PM
Jun 2023

But they aren't all white guys...


And if you've never climbed a mountain, simply because it's there, I feel bad for you. It's an amazing and rewarding experience that gets better and better as the work you put into climbing it gets harder. My last big adventure took 9 months of training and preparing to summit. The process made me a better person and was immensely rewarding.

Snackshack

(2,541 posts)
159. Actually
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 11:28 AM
Jun 2023

it just human stupidity and narcissism it has nothing to do race it just the species. Lots of different people routinely put themselves in a tube and go 35,000 feet up in the sky or will jump out of perfectly good airplanes, go to the edge of volcanos to see it, ride in a swing being swung around the top of a 1500 ft building...it just us.

TBH if what I have been reading/hearing about this company and their methods is correct and these people knew or didn't know which is even worse if they did not at least look into a company they were going to let bolt them into tube and drop down 12k feet. In a video clip I saw of the owner of the company he says flat out this sub is dangerous its experimental...you do not go to ocean depths that the Titanic sits at in a vessel that you do not have at the very least confidence in.

Any time I hear that a person that has died it is a sad moment, the hole it leaves in a person and the pain loved ones left behind have to deal with. Death it is something we all have in common. We will all face it one day.

RIP

SpankMe

(2,966 posts)
160. Great piece. Thanks.
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 11:32 AM
Jun 2023

Among the better quotables from this post:

"It doesn't take much to extrapolate that the risk taking of bored, rich white people can easily elevate to the level of a public menace."

Spot on.

maliaSmith

(80 posts)
172. another perspective
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 12:46 PM
Jun 2023

You mention white people as if all are the same. Most, in fact the majority of white people are struggling just like every other skin color. To call out white skinned people is racist although you won't admit it. There are rich people of every skin color that are arrogant, selfish and willing to blow money on stupidity. Next time, be fair. I see stupidity in all skin colors, from rich black people blowing 2 million on a stupid ugly car to all other races and skin tones showing their arrogance just because they have a lot of money. Beyonce and Kim blow millions on their own private jets and then spend hundreds of thousands to fly 20 miles to go shopping. That is arrogance. Kevin Costner's wife says she needs a quarter of million per month to support her lifestyle and that's arrogance,

Think of all the homeless, hungry people they could help. The only ones I see actually helping are the ex-wives of Bezos and Gates who are giving their money away.

215. +1
Sat Jun 24, 2023, 04:01 AM
Jun 2023

I agree that it comes off as racist, and I have explained my reasoning for feeling that way.

If you forgive a little of the phrasing, I believe I see that the OG is suggesting that, because of their color, they lived a life of privilege that has led to them being more arrogant than would otherwise be the case.

Red Mountain

(1,737 posts)
187. I think the racial characterization of what drove these people
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 02:52 PM
Jun 2023

to take the risk they did is wrong.

It's a tiny sample size of a tiny sample. And not a very diverse sample. At lower economic levels risk taking is more racially uniform from what I can tell. Got data to the contrary? I would love to see it.

Obscene wealth does seem to have a negative impact on a person's ability to relate to 'normal' people. The best example I can see of that is not some foolish rich folks that squandered all they had going for them for a thrill. People like them are mostly a threat to themselves and those closest to them. Like extreme mountain climbers and the people they hire to guide them.

There are a few extremely wealthy individuals that are in a position of power that allows them to take their greed to he next level....their fellow man be damned. Nothing is going to stand in the way of their greed or vision or whatever you want to call it.

I think Putin falls into that category.

Warpy

(111,351 posts)
190. It's also a cautionary tale to all rich men
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 04:45 PM
Jun 2023

of what can very well happen to if they keep chasing their own ego gratification over sharing the bounty with those who made them rich.

They'd rather stiff their workers on wages and hide their money away from tax liability so they can keep doing stupid shit like this.

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
202. No!! Don't tell rich people not to do this
Fri Jun 23, 2023, 07:15 PM
Jun 2023

We should encourage this sort of behavior. We should have Zuck and Musk to have their little boxing match on the moon and tell as many wealthy people as we can find how cool it would be for them to go to the moon to see it in person.

And then we should raise the federal inheritance tax.

214. You just want it to be in your home country so that many of your family & friends will all be there
Sat Jun 24, 2023, 03:53 AM
Jun 2023

I think it should be in Atlantis.

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