General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA different perspective about the submersible incident, if you don't mind...
It's not as if I'm willing to make light of those tragic deaths, because I'm not.
However, in my own perspective as a Black man living in America, I have gone through life understanding that... Well, there are some things that only white people will do... Especially, some rich white people who were willing to pay an exorbitant amount of money to invoke an entitlement to cheat death inside of a carbon fibre death trap 20,000 feet under the sea. All for what, to brag about the experience of taking a gander a murky, century old shipwreck on a flat screen TV? Frankly, I can't help but to regard that as pure hubris and a level of selfishness that's utterly inconceivable.
To me, their fate is not just a cautious tale of having more money than sense. It's a tableau to the intersection of basic white entitlement and excessive wealth.
And what was it not? It wasn't an exercise of existential imperative, like those poor refugees who were lead to their tragic deaths on Mediterranean.
Most people, without either the sense of entitlement or access to great and disposable wealth find much more reasonable pursuits to escape the endemic boredom of existence... They fly to Vegas and blow the mortgage money and the inheritance of their progeny, they go white water rafting on the Colorado River while NOT regarding the dynamic nature of the water levels at any given time, they attempt to play tag with an annoyed bison in Yellowstone Park for Instagram clout. And after all that, most go home to resume their not as freaking loaded humdrum existence. They don't think about the giddy fun of blowing the equivalent of a two bedroom ranch house in the midwest to look at a hole in the ground on flat screen TV at the bottom of the freaking ocean.
Again, as a Black man living in America, the level of excessive risk taking by those poor souls currently communing with Davy Jones is clearly a white people's thing. Setting the aside the notion of how whiteness is centered, especially the aspirational nature of rich, privileged whiteness, one must understand that traveling to the bottom of the ocean in a windowless death trap isn't a universal desire.
Rich white people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.
The late submersible crew and passengers may have paid a quarter million each for the privilege of becoming deep sea fish food, but considering the unnecessary rescue operation that ensued, we all as taxpayers have had to foot a bill. If these same rich and whiter-than-white captains of run away capitalism went up into the stratosphere inside of a chartered spacecraft that would have had the bad taste to explode like a Roman candle over a vast swath of populated areas, we all as taxpayers would have had to foot the bill. If Peter Thiel actually built his proposed floating ode to libertarian delusional thinking in the Pacific and it sank, taking more rich white people down with it, we all as taxpayers would have to foot the bill.
It doesn't take much to extrapolate that the risk taking of bored, rich white people can easily elevate to the level of a public menace.
And it's not going to stop... It's only going to get more risky, due to the persistence of rich white aspirational idealism. Elon Musk wants to rely on a portion of taxpayer funds and resources to strand bored rich white people on the Planet Mars.
Doesn't anyone see the problem with all of this? Again, I'm merely speaking outside of the centeredness of whiteness and outside of frames of reference of vast, unencumbered wealth.
I wouldn't know how to stop the problem from becoming bigger, because like of all of you, I'm merely a spectator. Despite that, to me, it's a presents the clear and imperative necessity of the vast white majority to get the white, privileged few under control. The romanticism of gazing lovingly at a corroded shipwreck will not do any of us any favors in the long run.
Anyway... May all the poor souls, rich and poor alike, rest in eternal peace.
WarGamer
(12,484 posts)Response to WarGamer (Reply #1)
DontBelieveEastisEas This message was self-deleted by its author.
Historic NY
(37,453 posts)shrike3
(3,800 posts)Old guys of any color tend to have expertise, and you pay for expertise. I
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)soldierant
(6,926 posts)have a reflection (in any sense of that word)?
senseandsensibility
(17,138 posts)but I would include male. I am a white female and this afternoon I told my husband that I would give up everything I own to NOT go on such an excursion.
hlthe2b
(102,374 posts)Claustrophobia and submerged--my two biggest nightmares combined.
But yeah, these guys were definitely highly privileged, but if I understand their thinking, they really believe their exploration to be the ultimate courageous act--and with some benefit to the future. While I don't doubt that the desire was based on self-aggrandizing, I'm sure the aspect that could lead to scientific advances was a good bit of their self-justification.
And while there are many women who are risk-takers, explorers, and even adrenaline junkies, I do think this is overwhelmingly a male thing--especially where such tremendous expense is incurred.
LiberalFighter
(51,094 posts)hlthe2b
(102,374 posts)David Pough (spelling?) interviewed a woman executive who had gone multiple times only to have weather or other issues cause postponements. She was just obsessed.
Scottie Mom
(5,812 posts)spooky3
(34,480 posts)DBoon
(22,397 posts)if threatened with such an expedition.
Not that I have a clue where Mr. Hoffa is buried, but I would say anything to get out of it
montanacowboy
(6,103 posts)I couldn't have stated it better.
MontanaMama
(23,337 posts)Thank you.
brer cat
(24,606 posts)Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)anciano
(1,003 posts)you can view the Titanic wreckage on YouTube for free!
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)It's grotesque in every sense of the word. What is the point?
It wasn't research. It wasn't a sacred display of reverence. It was exactly a handful of rich white dudes gawking through a tiny window from a space they couldn't turn around in without passing gas on one another.
For that money I want a cushy pillow and a foot rest and I won't be relishing the thought of seeing a place were a huge tragedy and emmense human suffering took place. I want blue sky, butterflies and rainbows.
Many men, at least as I've been privileged to learn, appear to be more stupid and self centered than ever. Single mindedness combined with my way or the highway. Talk too much, like everyone wants to hear what they think, while having petty sophomoric thoughts. Spare me.
The owners were deceptive, dumb, reckless, greedy and selfish braggarts. They deserve every bit of the hell that's likely about to rain down and ruin them.
The women who loved these men are probably saying things like "I told him not to go." The women who didn't, but were joined to these men by necessity, wouldn't admit it but they're probably thinking "Thank God, I thought he'd never leave me be."
Thoughts no less bizarre than those had by someone who believed it was a good idea to ride an uncertified underwater coffin to a graveyard and expected to resurface unscathed.
rebe303
(143 posts)Very good points and thanks
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)calimary
(81,487 posts)Definitely this.
Especially since we can drive to several local graveyards, breathing comfortably all the way.
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)"It wasn't research"?
I believe I read an article where one of the expeditioners was excited that he was part of a mission that would be helping to create some 3d something or other.
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)They decided NOT to install a beacon for safety to save weight and "complexity" which probably wouldn't have helped them anyway. Not with a catastrophic implosion.
One has to wonder if the jackass owner might have even been suicidal. He was mentally deficient without doubt. Bragging about doing construction on the cheap like it was something admirable. Sounds cuckoo to me.
He knew the risks compounded exponentially with each dive but cut corners on safety. Numerous experts in submersible development wrote letters trying to discourage his recklessness but they were IGNORED. The experts!
So, NO, it wasn't research. Not unless they took their three ring binders in their trapper keepers. It barely deserves to be compared to a school science project. I've seen some of those that were better planned an executed than what these wannabes conjured up.
calimary
(81,487 posts)But then again, Ive never been much of a rule-breaker to begin with. And if I ever was, I sure didnt want to brag about it.
Hugin
(33,207 posts)I kept being reminded of an episode of a reality show I had watched years ago. Two technician/engineers were challenged to build a deep sea tethered ROV. It was the only episode shown where they failed.
Even though they were only sending their device down to a few thousand feet they discovered that the properties of materials that they took for granted on the surface took on catastrophic consequences at those depths. During their last attempt the insulation of the COTS cable they were using for their tether became porous at the pressures. They pulled up a snapped cable and lost their ROV.
No, there was nothing learned from this dive of the OceanGate vessel other than to re-enforce FAFO. I am surprised it lasted as long as it was claimed.
Hugin
(33,207 posts)allegorical oracle
(2,357 posts)were told by Rush that the dive excursion is "safer than crossing the street."
hatrack
(59,592 posts)See, we learned something!
I come not to endorse or deny your observation.
Only to say, bless the chimps.
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)I did a search, not including scholarly articles, for the phrase "bless the chimps" to try and understand your meaning. The results led me back to the reply on DU. It wasn't intended for me anyway. So I'm just going to leave it at that.
❤️
Hugin
(33,207 posts)to send chimps into dangerous situations they wouldn't put themselves in.
I feel like we owe them a word of gratitude and praise for their involuntary involvement.
On, hatrack's post... I believe the theme is along the lines of "... play stupid games, win stupid prizes... ". But, that's only a guess.
❤️
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)no carbon fiber subs with off-the-shelf parts
No carbon fiber subs with off-the-shelf parts, what?
...should be used for tourism?
...have remained structurally sound underwater after __________ excursions?
...have been designed with the intention of being certified as meeting scientifically, previously established, structural safety specifications?
... as an isolated quote is just a fragment of an incomplete null hypothesis?
...currently exist intact on the planet?
...should be considered as more than expensive playtoys?
...have ever been designed by competent and thoughtful scientists but only by cavalier men with no reverence for human life?
...will ever make sense and should never be built again?
...have been anything more than a FAFO meme?
...your explanation here __________
If your intention was nothing more than to be cryptic, I apologize for asking for clarification.
Also, the something learned is a lesson as old as time and is going to be a "something" as long as humans fail to comprehend that...stupidity can kill you.
Rock on!
❤️pants
grantcart
(53,061 posts)To check the hypothesis I propose an identical trip filled with SC justices who take seats on commercial transport because they would otherwise be empty to test it.
markie
(22,758 posts)HAB911
(8,915 posts)meadowlander
(4,406 posts)Sky Jewels
(7,140 posts)The poor 19-year-old kid didn't even want to go, but went along with it for Father's Day.
orleans
(34,073 posts)Sky Jewels
(7,140 posts)meadowlander
(4,406 posts)tblue37
(65,488 posts)kept getting cancelled because of weather. She finally got to go, on the same ride as that reporter, I think. But I wonder what she is thinking now.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Where they were trying to find out how to work the controllers. She seemed nervous, but sure got over it fast.
BunnyMcGee
(464 posts)Hekate
(90,816 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)This is human behavior. When there are enough black billionaires, one will do something like this. The astronauts roll is quite diverse now.
Because of skin color we have to get them under control? We all need to get the billionaires under control, regardless of our skin color or theirs.
LiberalFighter
(51,094 posts)AwakeAtLast
(14,134 posts)He was the first person of color to come to my mind as a person who is flagrant with his money.
tblue37
(65,488 posts)Bucky
(54,068 posts)jcgoldie
(11,646 posts)NJCher
(35,732 posts)They need a publicity diversion .
barbaraann
(9,163 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)no, not that much.
barbaraann
(9,163 posts)Sogo
(4,993 posts)The risk is death. That could be the fate of many/most young black males driving a car and getting stopped at any time for some "traffic violation."
DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)And that risk is higher for all colors
DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)barbaraann
(9,163 posts)But probably wealth would indeed trump skin color for the top tier.
DBoon
(22,397 posts)Privileged white men manage to reap the benefits of taking risk while ensuring others take the downfall.
When you worldview involves shifting risk to the poorer and less powerful, risk taking feels like a powerful drug.
barbaraann
(9,163 posts)DBoon
(22,397 posts)... and the employees all lose their jobs but the CEO gets a golden parachute and gets to move on to his next spectacular fail
Bucky
(54,068 posts)People do stupid, reckless things all the time. Melatonin is not a variable. Not having money is only a variable in which form of stupidity people have the options to demonstrate. Having or not having police or bank loan officers target you for unfair treatment doesn't automatically gift humans with wisdom or cautious behavior.
barbaraann
(9,163 posts)"The talk."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_talk_(racism_in_the_United_States)
Perhaps I'm just basing my thoughts on my many years living in the South and how I think I would act if I were black. I think I'd have a constant elevated level of fear and caution.
You nailed it! There is this thing called free will. It doesnt matter what your skin color is .
NotVeryImportant
(578 posts)One key point you're missing in the OP is the point that "Rich white people are built differently."
Did you miss that? If you did, now that you're aware of it, what do you think that means?
elias7
(4,027 posts)Wife and I talking about this at dinner tonight. No sympathy from me. Big money bypassing regulations in search of bigger money. They are invulnerable because of their wealth, they think.
And all that money for rescue. Would have solved the homeless problem in some major city or gone for some good cause elsewhere.
appalachiablue
(41,172 posts)jaxexpat
(6,849 posts)"For the last time, do not touch the valves. Keep your hands off the valves or you'll get us all ki....."
orleans
(34,073 posts)Murphyb849
(572 posts)Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)Since the dawn of man, people have taken risks to explore the world around us and beyond. Some did it for money, some for glory and some for the sake of adventure. Most were men, likely for a mix of social and biological reasons, but they came from all different races and ethnicities. And yes, many never returned.
As noted upthread, there were two men of color on board this vessel and as I noted there have been countless other non-white men and women who have taken extraordinary risks during an adventure.
We can certainly have a discussion on risk taking and it's costs and benefits to society. I'm just not sure where race factors into this and I know of no scientific evidence for the theory that white men are any less risk adverse than other men. Maybe I'm wrong and there are studies out there, if so I'd love to see them.
spooky3
(34,480 posts)Cites a ton of research showing that as a group, generally men take greater risks than do women as a group, controlling for other factors. In some cases, this is so extreme as to cause major problems. Highly recommend these guidelinesthey are online.
Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)There is a spectrum obviously, but it's generally true. I've just never seen anything that suggests a racial factor.
Wonder Why
(3,252 posts)was like in space or under the sea or to fly or ... but people like this don't do it for those reasons IMHO. They do it for bragging rights.
"We went to Europe"
"Yeah but we went to Antarctica and few people have ever done that"
"We flew to the end of space and nobody else in this room has done that"
"But we did the ultimate. We went into space AND we took 13000 foot deep undersea trip to see the Titanic. Top that!*
*A couple sued the company. They had done a Blue Origin trip (for $250K each) and had booked and paid for the Titanic plunge. They were put off because of delays and were awaiting their turn so they sued not too long ago.
The more expensive it is; the more daring it is; the fewer the number of people who could or have done it - the more they want to do it. It's not science. It's not exploration. It's not humanity's desire to find out what's out there. It's purely money to buy what others can't. That's why it always seems to be white people that do it. They want a golden opportunity because they have the gold.
LuvLoogie
(7,034 posts)is laid at the feet of the company. They were deceptive as to the deep sea worthiness of their vessel. They provided slick propaganda with a liability waiver to cover for the cut corners and lack of preparation.
Notwithstanding the father and son being Asian, I think there would be takers from any demographic if cost were not a factor.
Yes the rich feel invincible and make hubristic choices, but so do poor young people. It's a different set of risks that don't always get airplay.
That young man was not yet addicted to the instant gratification his father's wealth provided. He got on board to please his father. He didn't want to go.
Most rich white men are content to be rich white men and are risk averse where their bodies and lives are concerned.
I'm neither rich nor white, but I'd get in a NASA craft. I would not get in a Space X craft. And I'd give a nod to all those white test pilots and astronauts that died making space flight better and safer. And I think black men in America would have done the same had they the opportunity in the 50s and 60s.
Every family has its fools.
Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)I would have jumped at the chance to do something like this today (albeit with a properly run operation) and at 19 there would have been absolutely no question.
LuvLoogie
(7,034 posts)did not want to go, but to please his father.
I was not aware of that. In that case, it is sad that he did not want to go.
PunkinPi
(4,878 posts)he went because the trip was on Father's Day and he wanted to make his dad happy.
But the 19-year-old ended up going aboard OceanGate's 22-foot submersible because the trip fell over Father's Day weekend and he was eager to please his dad, who was passionate about the lore of the Titanic, according to Azmeh.
Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/titanic-submersible-shahwood-suleman-family-tragedy-rcna90678
getagrip_already
(14,838 posts)We dont know what racial traits they exhibit (at least I have never seen a picture of them). Some are very dark skinned.
I'm sure there are wealthy risk takers of all races.
But I get your point. And as an old white guy, but not a billionairie, I wouldn't have gone anywhere in that science project. I know too much about technology and the sea to play that kind of roulette.
meadowlander
(4,406 posts)JI7
(89,269 posts)BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)What in the world does the ethnicity of a passenger's mother have to do with anything?
JI7
(89,269 posts)The OP is about white men and someone replied there were Pakistanis on that thing also. There was question about how they looked . I just mentioned that his mother is white to explain his physical appearance.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)I realize that's probably an unpopular opinion.
President Obama's mom was white, correct?
JI7
(89,269 posts)meadowlander
(4,406 posts)JI7
(89,269 posts)and dark skin. I was just pointing out that the son is lighter because his mother is white .
meadowlander
(4,406 posts)Or are you trying to argue otherwise?
JI7
(89,269 posts)or even the submersible.
I was responding to the comment about physical appearance .
LexVegas
(6,097 posts)Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)I grew up, not long ago ('80s & 90's) celebrating people like Amelia Earhart. People who pushed the bounds of technology and human achievement at great personal peril.
Now I see attitudes like many in this thread and others shame the same behavior.
While I have my own opinion on the matter, I'm mostly fascinated at the societal change in attitude.
Random Boomer
(4,168 posts)Amelia Earhart wasn't shilling a "safe" airline flight to passengers paying her to take them with her.
Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)But much of the negativity is directed at the customers as well as the operator.
Similar attitudes have been applied to plenty of risky, non-commercial activities. It's an interesting shift in culture.
NJCher
(35,732 posts)Maybe both.
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)...snip
Only in 1932, after Amelia Earhart flew across the Atlantic Ocean solo, did she feel she had earned her lavish praise.
Though she was only the second person in the world to accomplish this (after Lindbergh), Amelia Earhart did not slow down. Through the 1930s, she broke more flying records, wrote another book, promoted commercial airlines, and worked as a lecturer, career advisor to female college students, and Aviation Editor at Cosmopolitan Magazine.
In 1937, Amelia decided to go for the one record in aviation no one, man or woman, had ever attempted before to fly around the world at the equator. An extremely dangerous and unprecedented flight, it required months of preparation and a lot of luck. In the end, Amelia had neither. Exhausted from a grueling schedule of promotions, speeches and interviews, Amelia Earhart took off from Florida, making it all the way to New Guinea. After a few days rest, Amelia continued on, only to lose radio contact while trying to locate and land on the tiny Howland Island in the middle of the Pacific. On July 2, 1937, Amelia Earhart and her navigator Fred Noonan, after nearly 22,000 miles into the around-the-world flight, disappeared without a trace.
Amelia Earhart was adored because she was daring and successful in a mans world, and because she was magnificently promoted in the press and newsreels of the time. In the end, her courage cost her her life, but her groundbreaking contributions to flight and womens struggle for equality made Amelia Earhart an enduring American hero.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/earhart/
Watch Chapter One here
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/earhart-chapter-1/
❤️
NH Ethylene
(30,817 posts)I think we still admire, to some degree, the crazy guy that takes a sailboat on a 'round the world trip, that kind of thing.
For very valid reasons we strongly resent people who have lots of money and spend it on frivolous things.
Caliman73
(11,744 posts)We still celebrate people taking risks for the BENEFIT of HUMANITY. Earhart, the Wright brothers, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, and those who went before them into risky and unknown ventures. There is always a certain amount of self aggrandizement with "explorers" but we understand that and see them as intrepid.
The submarine thing was not done for the benefit of humanity. Even people in the community of Deep Sea exploration are understanding what this was about. Similar to Besos and Musk with their "space exploration". It is wealthy people playing with toys. People who scoff at the collective of humanity, who think they are special, who when they get in trouble, call out and expect the collective to rescue them or bail them out.
We are shaming the behavior or exploration. We are shaming the arrogance, lack of attention to safety, and the hypocrisy of hating government, then expecting government to save them.
Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)Private space exploration and deep sea diving are benefiting humanity and also involve wealthy men playing with their toys and looking for immortality in the history books. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And while in this particular incidente, the proper safety protocols were not followed, it's the same driving forces behind this operation and better run ones like Cameron and Ballard operate.
So while some may only be shaming the arrogance of this operation, I have seen far too many posts over the years that are not limited to certain extreme examples and instead criticize all such adventures.
calimary
(81,487 posts)to watch - even if my taxes have to help pay for it. But only as long as he goes down with it.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)There is informed risk taking it is, the year 2023 and modern science is a thing. There is uninformed risk taking. And then there is sheer entitlement risk taking
Beetwasher.
(2,982 posts)Skated through life so far, god has chosen me, nothings gonna happen to ME!
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)Shanti Shanti Shanti
(12,047 posts)Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)It's just now becoming public.
It was also not definitive proof.
Shanti Shanti Shanti
(12,047 posts)Bucky
(54,068 posts)It might be the debris field items clunking against each other as it scatters. Or it might be shifting tectonic plates.
Shanti Shanti Shanti
(12,047 posts)You know, guys that really knew what they were doing, not this "creative thinker", glub glub
Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)The issue is not the spirit of adventure or the risk taking. The issue is poor management and execution.
Scrivener7
(51,014 posts)damaged it and their submersible.
Shanti Shanti Shanti
(12,047 posts)Scrivener7
(51,014 posts)debm55
(25,405 posts)Beakybird
(3,333 posts)They are in heaven right now, in a gated community, away from all of the riff raff angels.
Goodheart
(5,345 posts)Ligyron
(7,639 posts)I found them enlightening and agree with many of his points.
Two of the passengers were definitely not white, but they were rich as hell, so they half qualify.
Anyway, other than that...
Bucky
(54,068 posts)Americans get a little too obsessed about race. I hear this from my non-American friends all the time.
Is bogus to start with. It's been latched on to and expanded so people can make themselves feel better and separate themselves from "Others". FFS Hawaiian/Pacific Islander is now considered a race. And gee, it's pretty much ALL based on skin color! Imagine that.
A good read about Race and genetics.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737365/
Higherarky
(637 posts)Thank you, inthewind21.
Bucky
(54,068 posts)I think we can all agree our perceptions of race matter and profoundly affects peoples' lives, helpfully as well as harmfully.
I would argue that race is at least as much about culture as it is about skin color. Hispanics present a relatively wide spectrum of skin hues (as do black Americans), but tend to get lumped together by culturally shaped preconceptions.
My main point was that the OP was attributing to whiteness & wealth the follies of callously disregarding basic safety rules. People wreck as many Mazdas as Ferrris. There's a rainbow of stupid out there, as any trip to the ER will validate. Losing sight of that commonality in the human race is a very American cultural trait.
evemac
(132 posts)I do think it trends more white male, though. I don't think as many women feel the same need to participate in expensive, dangerous and reckless behaviors.
Scottie Mom
(5,812 posts)So well written and so well reasoned.
Thank you so much for sharing this.
3Hotdogs
(12,409 posts)Google Street racing, L.A.
Red Mountain
(1,737 posts)Bucky
(54,068 posts)Seriously, is this supposed to represent how they'll be serving pepperoni pizza on the flight around the moon?
.
I don't want to sound negative, they're all going to die a brief horrible silent death.
djacq
(1,634 posts)You have well articulated what I was thinking.
ecstatic
(32,731 posts)of the men involved and couldn't believe they would pay that much money to go down there. I didn't really stick around to hear his full opinion and perspective. I guess for me, I'm more focused on the irony and horror aspects. They are literally a part of the Titanic wreckage now. Forever.
love_katz
(2,584 posts)1. Apparently, the US Navy had some underwater listening devices in the area. They heard sounds that would correlate to a catastrophic implosion about the time that communications were lost with the submersible. 2. Since the sounds were not proof of the submersible implosion, a search had to be performed. 3. That submersible looked cheap, hokey and jerry rigged. Its hull wasn't properly tested and the view port was only certified for a depth of about 1300 feet which is not anywhere close to the depth of the Titanic wreckage which is at about 13,000 feet. The submersible seemed to have been way underpowered for dealing with strong ocean currents, and it was steered by a game controller that you would use in your home. I could go on with more details, but the whole design, combined with the attitude of the CEO screams of an unbelievable lack of respect for the extreme dangers of the deep sea environment. 4. It seems to have disappeared, but before the Coast Guards press conference about the finding of the debris field, I watched a couple of videos that seem to have come from the company's website. The one with the CEO inside the submersible struck me as particularly disturbing. I couldn't see how anyone would be persuaded that going anywhere in that thing would be safe, let alone going down to 13,000 feet. 5. When all is said and done, these folks have paid the ultimate price for their trip. 6. I am grateful that I am not a rich white man. Exploring and taking some risks is natural, but I have no interest in extreme anything. The price for failure is considerable, and we're all human. Humans make mistakes, but some risky situations have no margin for error. 7. People too often don't think about what the possible outcome of their choices and actions. The result is to put our various public services at risk and to cost huge amounts of taxpayers money. 8. This incident occurred in International waters, outside of the jurisdiction of any countries regulating body. The Coast Guard would never have let this company take paying passengers on their tin can vessel. 9. I would stop the insanity of rich white crazy people, but I don't have anywhere the money or political clout to do that. 10. I don't understand them, either. I am white, but both poor and old.
Maeve
(42,288 posts)I grew up reading a book about it written the year it sank (still have that book) and the horror/tragedy has haunted me for 50+ years.
That said, you couldn't PAY me to go down there...it is both scary and sacred and none but drones need visit that grave. It is the grave of hubris, over-weening pride and stupid confidence.
LisaM
(27,832 posts)There are thousands of shipwrecks lying at the bottom of our lakes and seas. The Titanic has almost been fetishized (I am not really casting stones, it interests me too). If people want to view shipwrecks, there are many, many safer options.
Maeve
(42,288 posts)The sheer belief that we are masters of our fate, when we are subject to human weakness and blindness. The 'unsinkable ' was doomed from her beginning, but the willfully blind would not see. Never enough lifeboats, never enough caution.
DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)"Rich white people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone. "
I think the "Rich White People" turned out in the same way that any group would that was Rich and not "Unprivileged".
I don't think we can start implying that their "White" DNA makes them a threat; without it leading to bad things.
Your writings frighten me.
RevBrotherThomas
(838 posts)Their "white DNA" does not make them a threat - their white privilege does. The multi-billionaires of the world are overwhelmingly white.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Explain societal race-based inequities in a way this would ever apply please
DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)I've tried to think of ways to describe reality without being accused of sounding racist and bigoted, and come up empty.
Perhaps in this case we could say,
Rich Privileged people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.
Instead of using "Rich White people "
And, perhaps instead of "built differently", we could say, "developed differently" or "or grown into beings that are built differently"
Somehow pointing out that being white is not the essential reason; Although, due to the history, it is whites that have experienced privilege here in the USA.
Bucky
(54,068 posts)then again, so are our definitions of race.
There is a lot of culturally American projection going on in this thread. Doing reckless things is something that people from all demographics and income levels do all the time, from reckless driving to trying drugs to voting for Republicans. Rich people only have the resources for seeking out more exotic, headline-grabbing means of doing stupid shit.
But the thesis that irrational risk taking is somehow unique to the white upper class experience does not hold up to mountains of evidence to the contrary.
Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)But the idea that engaging in risky or reckless behavior is unique to wealthy white men comes from a place of racial bias.
As you so clearly point out, people of all racial, ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds do reckless things. It's just the rich guys who grab the headlines when they say "hold my beer".
DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)Rich white people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.
So, what if someone said,
Poor black people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.
And explained it by saying things like this:
Blacks are coming from generations of oppressed ancestors and being surrounded by poverty, themselves, their friends and their family, and having unfair bias when trying to find a job, etc.
They have a sense of being abused, ridiculed and having been taken advantage of.
Most people, without either the sense of oppression or living in poverty find much more reasonable pursuits to escape the endemic boredom of existence.
Poor black people are built differently and, we have to admit, it's not all good for anyone.
Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #206)
Bucky This message was self-deleted by its author.
Firestorm49
(4,037 posts)OneBro
(1,159 posts). . . and what YOU would or would not do as ONE black man with your lived experience makes sense, but there is not ONE black person on the plan who can speak for all or even most black people.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)Most of the group were lifelong explorers. They did not undergo this expedition because of boredom, but because of long-cultivated scientific interest and curiosity. Without knowing anything about them, you are hurling insults like "hubris", "selfishness", and "entitlement". You know nothing about these people.
Oh, are Pakistanis considered white people now? Or are they Asians?
How do you know that the families of the deceased, who are very wealthy, will not pay back the agencies that spent money looking for their relatives? How do you know that they have not already offered? How do you know that they will not offer to do so?
I'm sorry that you see the attempt to rescue these human lives as a "problem". I'm sorry that you saw the attempt to rescue them as "unnecessary". Yes, there are migrants desperate to leave poor countries who are drowning at sea. They should be rescued. But the fact that they are sometimes left to die has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that there was a great effort to rescue the passengers of the doomed submersible.
There are times when rescues seem extravagant, and it seems disproportionate. People take huge risks, and others risk their lives to save them. But is doing nothing really an alternative? If you know that five people are trapped in a submersible at the bottom of the ocean is it really an option to look the other way?
When planes go down, countries spend millions looking for survivors and wreckage. They do so knowing that there will likely be no survivors. Flying may be extravagant for some people, but it is routine for others.
What happened this week was a tragedy. Read the obituaries and try to think of them as human beings, not your stereotype of rich white people.
I agree completely. We know nothing about the dead except that they were rich and white (except they all weren't) and that seems to be all that is necessary to imply they got what they deserved for their hubris and entitlement.
I find it particularly unfair because the people who died were lead to believe this was SAFE and they were LIED TO. They were murdered in my opinion. The company knew the sub couldn't do what they said it could.
DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)Stockton Rush was in the Titan
The Titan's company is OceanGate
Stockton Rush founded OceanGate
Stockton Rush is/was the CEO
Stockton Rush virtually was the company.
So, I don't believe the company knew it couldn't do it.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)Unfortunately he didn't listen to what some people were telling him, and it cost him his life.
Higherarky
(637 posts)into your thought process.
I have learned you are quite different from who you have previously presented yourself to be. Thank you for showing us who you truly are.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Exegesis is the practice of taking meaning from an action and building an analysis outward. (Ex like the word exit)
Eisogesis is the opposite, starting with a conclusion and picking facts that support your conclusion.
This is now so common I have coined the term "eisocentric logic" to describe it
In this case your eloquent and passionate essay is completely at odds with the facts.
None of the paying passengers were "rich white Americans ". Two were Pakistani, one British and one French. The only cre member was white, but not rich.
We can find examples in all races. There is the case of Herman Cain. A survivor of multiple cancers (one stage IV) he gets on a plane to go to a Trump rally in the middle of a pandemic when thousands are dying by the hour, takes no precautions and is dead weeks later.
It would have been stronger if you had not referred to race and only made it about how class insulates people from making rational risk reward calculations but then we would need to factor in Jonestown where hundreds of poor people embraced a cocoon of irrationality that was all risk with little rewards.
I have a simpler conclusion: we live in a sea of stupidity. It's really mind boggling and not populated by any single race, class or nationality, it is an equal opportunity disease.
Haggard Celine
(16,856 posts)Very well put! That's actually the lesson to be learned from this. We have to make sure that we aren't part of that stupidity.
Bucky
(54,068 posts)But when you warn people about shit like this, you should say "You so centric"
Bucky
(54,068 posts)and I'm stealing "eisocentric logic"
(I can only fault you for not saying "we are sinking in a sea of stupid" since obviously not everyone manages to live in the sea)
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)byronius
(7,401 posts)DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)I understand the premise.
But, I believe we should always go out of our way to point out that white and black are not built much differently at the basic human level.
Sogo
(4,993 posts)could distill down to one main point that you stated early on: "a cautious tale of having more money than sense."
Boredom and risk-taking strike within all races and, as has been pointed out, mostly by the male gender. It's just that some have the money to indulge their risk-taking in a more publicized way. I honestly don't see a difference in the risk these men took and those of more modest means who wrap a bungie cord around their ankles and jump off a high bridge, or those who race their cars in traffic. The risk in all these cases is death; only the price of admission varies....And it would be taxpayer funded responders that recover the bodies and clean up the wreckage in every case.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)I read an observation today that framed it like this.
The obscenely rich ignore safety protocols and warnings in indulge in what we can refer to as "tragedy tourism" of a sunken ship well-known for the disproportionate number of lower-class people who died. They died due to, oh, wait for it...the ultra-rich of a century ago who ignored safety protocols and cut corners so the caviar and champagne could flow freely on an ocean voyage.
These people died this week, gawking at the watery graves of mostly poor people, and now they will only be remembered in history as a footnote to that.
Fuck 'em.
Bucky
(54,068 posts)This is just straight up simple consequences. This is called winning stupid prizes.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)Pototan
(1,198 posts)...I don't get it. It's not that life is without risk, but I'm all for reducing that risk, especially if you're blessed with a great deal of wealth.
Flying on a plane, driving a car, swimming in the ocean are all risky endeavors. But a normal oerson reeduces that risk. I fly non-stop to reduce the take offs and landings, I don't drive drunk or drive in a car with a reckless driver. I don't smoke or drink to access. I swim close to shore. In other words, life is not risk free, but we certainly can reduce those risks.
And to have a billion US dollars to increase your risks makes no sense to me.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)Why anyone would want to visit a 100+ yr wreck at the bottom of the sea is beyond my understanding. And after learning that the operators of that vessel poo-pooed standard submarine inspections and certifications, I hope they get their ass sued and charged with negligent homicide.
Kablooie
(18,641 posts)or even to experience the alien environment that has been next to us for eternity...
but to go down to look at an old wrecked luxury ship is pretty crass.
Tom Yossarian Joad
(19,231 posts)mountain grammy
(26,655 posts)and may they all rest in peace.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)How stupid do you have to be to agree to that.
H2O Man
(73,620 posts)Martin68
(22,890 posts)who throw away the price of a house on an opportunity to buy unique bragging rights. Short spaceflights and hikes up Everest are other examples. It's the ultimate excuse for conspicuous consumption under the cover of "adventure" and "experience." The fact that two of the wealthy assholes on board were Indians is beside the point. I don't like "crazy" rich asians any more than I like "normal" white assholes. It's the ultimate expression of class and entitlement on any continent.
Jack-o-Lantern
(968 posts)I am surprised at the depth of anger here concerning this tragic event.
It was simply a bad ending to a risky adventure
nothing more.
mwb970
(11,366 posts)They indulged in incredibly risky behavior at great expense for reasons that do not make sense to me. I am having trouble feeling sympathy.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Five men die while playing. Nothing.
Five wealthy elites die while playing -- and The People, as always, are the ones to suffer and be exploited.
Substitute "liberals" for "wealthy" to get tRumpist populism instead of LW class version.
DEPTH and BREADTH of anger.
"Watch for mean people."
Democracy.
ancianita
(36,137 posts)profitable for them to report; therefore, whose deaths humans can know about, or get the chance to care about.
Not all media manage our helpless spectatorship, but most media do.
Link to tweet
czarjak
(11,296 posts)Bluethroughu
(5,195 posts)These dummies went down in a sub outfitted with a Nintendo remote controller, weight with some discarded jobsite steal, and some grab handles from camping world.
The lesson is we need to stop believing wealth equals intelligence or we need less regulation because the rich know what their doing, because THEY DON'T.
This is not a skin color issue, we've seen our fair share of minority rich dummies too. It is a mental illness driven by the bored and lazy with too much money.
We need to claw back every IRS tax change to at least President Kennedy's Era or further to President FDR.
Bucky
(54,068 posts)Google "Chinaka Adoezuwe". His stupidity didn't come from whiteness or wealth. It came from God.
Sure rich people who live ostentatiously are more likely to die from wealth-enabled ostentation. But a foolish disregard for safety doesn't depend on money, only opportunity. Something like a 200,000 Americans die in accidents determined to be "unintentional injuries" each year. I'm certain you'll find that to be a representative sampling of American male demographics.
NowISeetheLight
(3,943 posts)I don't think it's a white or black or anyone thing. It's hubris and stupidity. These people happened to have a ton of money and it's the Titanic so it made the news. The reality is though stupid decisions are plentiful, not just one race or wealth level. Poor people do stupid stupid stuff as well. It just doesn't make the news.
Before I retired I was in hospital finance. Before that medical coding. I'd code hospital charts and have to assign ICD9 ECodes for cause of injury. When ICD10 hit they became ZCodes. Some of the stupid stuff I saw people do that resulted in them ending up in the hospital was amazing. I'd think "OMG... and they're allowed to vote and reproduce".
Some people think they are invincible. Some are risk takers. Some are just freaking idiots. I sometimes joke that I'm pro-choice because some people SHOULD NOT reproduce.
NotVeryImportant
(578 posts)Like, at all.
Wild blueberry
(6,660 posts)And OceanGate must pay for the entire rescue attempt.
Thank you.
CaptainTruth
(6,601 posts)VERY well written, & I'm bookmarking your post so I can come back & fully digest it.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)to the bottom of the ocean just to say they've been there. We've always had intrepid explorers, and we've had idiots going that way for the ride. That's part of what it means to be human. We still have hundreds of people every year climbing Everest off season, and thousands of people braving Appalachian slopes after the rescue teams have gone home. "Braving" the beaches with no lifeguards around is part of this idiocy, too.
And I know of no studies about how one's racial makeup makes one more or less susceptible to this idiocy. I suspect that if we visited Africa, we would find the will to be this idioticy as common as it is here.
The point is simply that we are all human, and act and react as humans do. We take calculated risks all the time, but we don't have to look for them.
orangecrush
(19,620 posts)The rich and poor drowned side by side.
Perhaps there is a moral there.
hatrack
(59,592 posts)62% of First Class passengers survived
41% of Second Class passengers survived
25% of Third Class passengers survived
https://courses.bowdoin.edu/history-2203-fall-2020-kmoyniha/reflection/
orangecrush
(19,620 posts)Interesting.
kaotikross
(246 posts)There are more than enough natural disasters to possibly take us out these days. I'll pass on the crazy, thanks. But I get it, when you're rich and you've did all the drugs, had all the high priced sex, bought all the stuff.. what's left? The rich are so jaded that we might just see Elon and Zuck going tooth and nail in a cage match.
Scrivener7
(51,014 posts)but I do agree generally. I have little sympathy for them. I do think ultra rich men, who tend to be white, are way too eager to waste our common resources and that represents an extreme cost to the rest of us. I do not believe there was any "science" to be had from this moronic venture. It was about boredom and ego. The exact same images they were scheduled to see on the flat screen inside that soup can could have been viewed on a flat screen in a living room somewhere.
But what an eye opener the replies are! Many attribute virtues and motivations to the men that are patently false. Many show fear at complaints against white hubris, which is one of the major sources of pain in our world. I say that as a white person because it is incontrovertible. And that's not coming from from liberal guilt. It's from a cursory reading of history.
Hugin
(33,207 posts)Is that these people were exercising choice.
Something that is being systematically denied to women in this country currently.
Scrivener7
(51,014 posts)NJCher
(35,732 posts)Their other new sport: buy your own Supreme Court justice.
retread
(3,763 posts)Goddessartist
(1,871 posts)Vinca
(50,304 posts)lark
(23,156 posts)Sorry, but how does one get their owners, the ones who control just about everything (their rent, their job $$), who think they are nearly Gods and who think we are nothing since we don't have enough $$, and who are happy to jail or kill us for our sins - especially if we are women - to do anything?
They keep everyone down, it will take everyone working together to make changes.
Siwsan
(26,291 posts)There are some things best left in the 'too risky' category. I've got much better things to do with my time and money.
LaMouffette
(2,039 posts)fifty million dollars a year. And that money would go directly to improving public education from kindergarten through higher education and be distributed to schools on a needs basis so that all children would have a better chance of securing the American Dream, which is currently just a cruel fable for so many.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)I'm fully convinced that great wealth breeds a mental disorder known as blind greed.
they think only of themselves and nothing beyond that.
Thanks for writing this.
IbogaProject
(2,841 posts)The way to fix this is clear costs to be searched for, rescued or recovered. We need a stronger tax code with as steeply progressive rise. We need to find ways to reasonably limit the protection from liability corporations and their shareholders enjoy.
JI7
(89,269 posts)There are many cases of people dying and getting harmed doing stupid shit. These guys had money to do things most can't afford.
People have even died because of the way they did "gender reveals" .
kooth
(219 posts)I keep shaking my head about stupid, narcissistic things like this. I wish the recent tragedy with the migrants who drowned got as much effort to save them and news coverage. Thanks so much for this post!
malaise
(269,169 posts)rec
PelicanScot_V3
(70 posts)You captured my thoughts on the subject brilliantly and wrote it much better than I could have. Bravo!
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Superior wealth only breed superior ambition, which is to say, stupid ambition. Right now, on Mt. Chomolungma (aka the mountain a white guy named EVEREST) there are literal tons of trash on the mountain peak left by rich white travelers who needed to "climb it" aka be led up there by a native This is done so that they can fulfill their fantasies of begin superheroes ,even though Superman or Spidey make their living by humbling rich bad guys who are rightfully shown in the comics as VILLAINS, as opposed to worshipped like they are in real life.
Mr. Scorpio
(73,631 posts)At some point, the not-so-rich people who would have been normally tasked to mount some daring rescue effort to retrieve those gilded fallen have decided that the expense, effort and risk of bringing those formerly rich corpses down the mountain wasn't worth it.
The corpses of the formerly well-to-do remain and now serve as both landmarks for other potential well-to-do bored adventurers and reminders of the foolhardiness of climbing that mountain. In a way, the dead are serving a more useful purpose in death than they had while climbing the mountain when alive.
It's clear sign that the rules for imperiled rich white people can change if people choose to change them.
Zeitghost
(3,869 posts)But they aren't all white guys...
And if you've never climbed a mountain, simply because it's there, I feel bad for you. It's an amazing and rewarding experience that gets better and better as the work you put into climbing it gets harder. My last big adventure took 9 months of training and preparing to summit. The process made me a better person and was immensely rewarding.
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)it just human stupidity and narcissism it has nothing to do race it just the species. Lots of different people routinely put themselves in a tube and go 35,000 feet up in the sky or will jump out of perfectly good airplanes, go to the edge of volcanos to see it, ride in a swing being swung around the top of a 1500 ft building...it just us.
TBH if what I have been reading/hearing about this company and their methods is correct and these people knew or didn't know which is even worse if they did not at least look into a company they were going to let bolt them into tube and drop down 12k feet. In a video clip I saw of the owner of the company he says flat out this sub is dangerous its experimental...you do not go to ocean depths that the Titanic sits at in a vessel that you do not have at the very least confidence in.
Any time I hear that a person that has died it is a sad moment, the hole it leaves in a person and the pain loved ones left behind have to deal with. Death it is something we all have in common. We will all face it one day.
RIP
SpankMe
(2,966 posts)Among the better quotables from this post:
"It doesn't take much to extrapolate that the risk taking of bored, rich white people can easily elevate to the level of a public menace."
Spot on.
question everything
(47,535 posts)shrike3
(3,800 posts)maliaSmith
(80 posts)You mention white people as if all are the same. Most, in fact the majority of white people are struggling just like every other skin color. To call out white skinned people is racist although you won't admit it. There are rich people of every skin color that are arrogant, selfish and willing to blow money on stupidity. Next time, be fair. I see stupidity in all skin colors, from rich black people blowing 2 million on a stupid ugly car to all other races and skin tones showing their arrogance just because they have a lot of money. Beyonce and Kim blow millions on their own private jets and then spend hundreds of thousands to fly 20 miles to go shopping. That is arrogance. Kevin Costner's wife says she needs a quarter of million per month to support her lifestyle and that's arrogance,
Think of all the homeless, hungry people they could help. The only ones I see actually helping are the ex-wives of Bezos and Gates who are giving their money away.
DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)I agree that it comes off as racist, and I have explained my reasoning for feeling that way.
If you forgive a little of the phrasing, I believe I see that the OG is suggesting that, because of their color, they lived a life of privilege that has led to them being more arrogant than would otherwise be the case.
littlemissmartypants
(22,805 posts)Thank you. Love you, MS. ❤️
Dorn
(523 posts)Red Mountain
(1,737 posts)to take the risk they did is wrong.
It's a tiny sample size of a tiny sample. And not a very diverse sample. At lower economic levels risk taking is more racially uniform from what I can tell. Got data to the contrary? I would love to see it.
Obscene wealth does seem to have a negative impact on a person's ability to relate to 'normal' people. The best example I can see of that is not some foolish rich folks that squandered all they had going for them for a thrill. People like them are mostly a threat to themselves and those closest to them. Like extreme mountain climbers and the people they hire to guide them.
There are a few extremely wealthy individuals that are in a position of power that allows them to take their greed to he next level....their fellow man be damned. Nothing is going to stand in the way of their greed or vision or whatever you want to call it.
I think Putin falls into that category.
Warpy
(111,351 posts)of what can very well happen to if they keep chasing their own ego gratification over sharing the bounty with those who made them rich.
They'd rather stiff their workers on wages and hide their money away from tax liability so they can keep doing stupid shit like this.
Bucky
(54,068 posts)We should encourage this sort of behavior. We should have Zuck and Musk to have their little boxing match on the moon and tell as many wealthy people as we can find how cool it would be for them to go to the moon to see it in person.
And then we should raise the federal inheritance tax.
DontBelieveEastisEas
(516 posts)I think it should be in Atlantis.