TW (Rape). Explanation of No Screaming Or Yelling For Help

[usedtobedemgurl]

With the rape case before the courts right now, the lawyer asked if the survivor yelled for help.

If you know someone who was raped or you were raped, please read the following:

There is something called TI, or Tonic Immobility. This happens a lot in rape cases. Your body has a fight or flight response. If you do neither, your mind takes over and plays dead. This is an involuntary response. It is nothing the survivor can control or even realizes it is happening.

Because rape survivors often do not know about this, they often feel guilty they did not call for help or resist. They cannot explain it to friends, family or cops. They have no idea it even happened to them.

Please know what is going on when you hear survivors did not call out. Please assure yourselves or those who you know went through a trauma.

I sincerely hope few people on this board need this information. It is a horrible thing to go through.

[Karadeniz]

1. Good info!

[tazkcmo]

2. I confess,

I needed this information. Thank you!

[usedtobedemgurl]

3. I am an advocate for survivors.

I am a survivor. Please know I am here but please be sure to talk to someone. I am sincerely sorry you needed my post. I wish you the best.

[Maraya1969]

4. Thank you for explaining this. I had the same response when I was molested by that minister

I would say things like, ,"He doesn't realize he is touching me there" "It's a mistake" and then I would tell myself that because he was a minister he was asexual (he had 5 fucking kids).

But yes I would be completely still except that my body would stiffen. I also realized that he got me believing that only he could save me from the terrifying abyss I thought I was going into every time I had a panic attack. He was like my savior and with that he took advantage of me.

[usedtobedemgurl]

12. Words Fail Me..

I am sorry that happened to you. He was a predator in so many ways. I hope you have healed from your - I am sorry, I have brain damage and while I trying to find the word(s) my brain will not allow it. Matt your future be bright.

[Maraya1969]

14. Thank you so much. It was a long time ago and I have healed a lot. I even confronted the

bastard in a parking lot of a diner in Jersey. I didn't practice what to say so I was basically like "You did me wrong etc etc" and his wife was there saying "What happened?" My friend then looked at her and said "Your husband molested my friend" And she shut up. He ended up sitting on a rock ledge and said "If I offended you in any way I am sorry"

He is long dead. And I know I was not his only victim.

But like I said it was a long time ago and I am so much better now.

[Aristus]

20. What a monster. "IF I offended you..."

Guy couldn’t even apologize like a man.

[LAS14]

5. Thanks for this! I got hit over the head (figuratively) for asking...

... if she had addressed this (first day, had not been cross examined.) If we don't ask, we don't find out, right? Her answer was "some of are screamers and some of us are fighters." It doesn't fit tonic immobility, but the whole idea of different, involuntary, physical reactions is made clearer by your post.

[usedtobedemgurl]

8. When you are not sure of an answer....

Your brain tries to fill in information with what it thinks it knows. If she does not know about TI, she may just throw out some are screamers and some are not.

Maybe it was the whole some are screamers but I have talked to so many survivors that it feels her brain is trying to find the information. Because, from no screamers, you could follow up and say what about fighting? The way she did not fight or yell, it feels like, from everything I have read/been told/experienced/researched that it was TI. She cannot say that in court, if she does not know it exists.

[yardwork]

16. People respond to trauma in different ways.

It's important for survivors of rape to feel that they have strength and autonomy, because those are the things this crime takes from people. Rape makes people feel powerless. I think that it is important for Carroll to remember that she fought. She fought silently.

There have been times in my life when I was terrified and I couldn't make a sound. All I could do was fight, intently.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

6. I 100% understand and sympathize. But the thing is, when you go to court ...

It is very much beneficial to the prosecutors (and/or lawyers) case if the victim can point to SOME action(s) they took to dissuade the alleged attacker. Screaming/calling for help are a subset of possible actions one can take to convey 'NO'.

The legal complexity is that there's such a thing in the world as 'consensual sex'. Unlike 'consensual mugging' or 'consensual getting my home burglarized'.

In my personal life I'd never hold a woman I knew to those same legal standards and I'd absolutely believe her. But court is different. Optimally you'll have proof of some kind that the attacker knew or should have known ... that you were expressing non-consent.

It's just how it is, don't shoot me I'm only the messenger.

[usedtobedemgurl]

9. You may be the messenger but you were the one who said it.

Instead of stating you hope the lawyer knows about this so they can turn to a professional to come in and discuss it.

You can tout that the courts should listen to experts and it is a psychological happening that any credible mental professional can explain in a court of law. Or even back up that the courts could use professional sites like this article: https://psychcentral.com/health/trauma-induced-paralysis

Or

https://mcasa.org/newsletters/article/trauma-and-the-brain-understanding-tonic-immobility

Just so you know, when you use the word “but,” it negates all that came before. Women who need help understanding what happened to them, need to have access to information.

When jurors/drs/friends/family do not understand why a survivor may have been quiet, we need to speak up and educate them. Part of the reason I did not tell anyone about my rape, is I knew they would ask why I didn’t scream, even if I did say no.

Be more open to educating the public. After all, I explained to people what may have happened in the rape trial, or to their friends or even themselves. I did not ask why they were not educating folks in the courtroom. Maybe that should be addressed as well.

I wish you the best.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

27. Yeah, once again I agree ... But what I said about how it works in court is also true

I really don't mean to argue against your general point that this is a real phenomenon. I'm only saying optimally a victim can honestly testify to having made clear 'they said no' in some way shape or form, whether that's screaming, saying no, scratching the bastards face, whatever.

[yardwork]

33. Each of the responses you mention get some rape victims killed.

Some rapists respond with greater violence when their victims fight back.

A lot of people think that rape is about sexual attraction. It's not. It's about inadequate, violent people imposing violent, dehumanizing attacks on another person they don't view as a person.

It's an inherently violent, terrifying experience created by a messed up person whose next actions are unpredictable but very likely to be driven by more anger and more violence.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

35. Look, I totally get why someone might not fight back or even say 'no, don't'

I'm not an idiot. And I'm not suggesting anything like you failed if you didn't do so, please don't interpret me that way

Only saying it's likely going to help in court if you do, though. Esp. if you're saying you know the person ... maybe it's your husband, or you were on a date. In these sorts of cases, so often the attackers defense is going to be ... I thought she was consenting. It will bolster your (or the State's) case considerably if you're able to get on the stand and say "he should NOT have thought that, and here's why ..."

Again I'm only saying that this is how it works in court, as a practical matter.

[niyad]

36. The old legal standard of, "The only good rape victim is a dead one."??

[Hugh_Lebowski]

37. Man, an awful lot of words being put into my mouth on this thread I gotta say

No, what I mean is as long as these things continue to be true:

1) Consensual Sex is something that exists in practice, and
2) People are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of their peers, beyond a reasonable doubt.

then it will remain helpful to a prosecution (or civil adjudication) in most cases if a rape victim conveyed in SOME way that 'the answer is no, I don't consent' to their attacker. That's it. That's my only point.

[niyad]

38. The reality is, that is still the mentality, and your whole point IS that that is

still the mentality, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. And since that is the mentality, they are not goung to hear, or care, about psychological phenomenon. So the issue is, how do we change them? Change them, not continue abusing women a second time because of an outdated, wrong, woman-hating/blaming, completely fucked-up patriarchal system.

Do you have any brilliant ideas about how to do this, because nithing seems to be getting through to them?

[yardwork]

17. Carroll testified that she fought. She hit Trump. She kneed him.

She stomped on his foot. She fought him off. I don't know if you've been following the reports. We don't have full transcripts. From what I've read, she fought like hell.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

25. I never said she didn't ... the post was pretty generic so I replied in a generic fashion (nt)

[Wednesdays]

7. Like when animals and even people FREEZE when faced with sudden danger.

nt

[usedtobedemgurl]

10. Exactly! You get it!! Nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. Yep, we now understand it as "fight, flight, freeze or fawn" instead of just "fight or flight."

[usedtobedemgurl]

13. I am truly glad a lot of people already know about the silence...

And why it happens. More people need to understand this.

[Earthrise]

15. We don't ask the victim of robbery if they fought the assailant to determine if they were robbed...

Please see more of psychologist Dr. Heather Flowe's thoughts - excerpt and link below - because she makes the point that expecting women to fight back during a rape is illogical.

My 2 cents: I believe women when they say they were raped. I teach a gender studies related college course in which students debate topics related to all types of gender violence. It can be extremely hard to dispassionately debate topics charged with so much emotion, especially if it's happened to you or to a loved one or close friend.

Still, the science on tonic immobility is very weak - including clinical work in which researchers ask survivors if they felt frozen with fear when they were assaulted. We can't determine if someone experienced a specific physiological state - literal paralysis - by asking them after the fact whether they felt frozen because "frozen" means very different things to different people. I could tell you I was frozen with fear when I heard someone trying to open our front door in the middle of the night, without meaning that I was literally paralyzed.

The person who first suggested that rape victims may not fight back due to tonic immobility was not an expert in neuroscience or physiology. If tonic immobility happens in humans it's more like what happens at some mass shootings - the first shots ring out and everyone freezes for an instant in time before running, diving under something, etc.

Why don't women fight back? Survival instinct. Fear quite logically leads many women to not fight back during rape. Survivors may well be thinking that the perpetrator may severely beat her or kill her if she fights back. We don't need to refer to a special physiological state to explain why someone could - in the midst of being brutalized - be aware they may experience even greater violence if they fight back and therefore decides not to fight back to keep themselves safe from brain damage, a spinal injury that causes paralysis, other types of horrible wounds, and death.

I think women who don't fight back may be making as courageous a choice as those who do. Circumstances vary and what's possible in one situation isn't in others.

Why Tonic Immobility Should Not Inform Rape Law Reform
https://www.heatherflowe.com/post/tonic-immobility-why-it-should-not-inform-rape-law-reform

... Per the Reuters article above, “Police and courts often query a victim’s story if she did not retaliate, but there is growing evidence that many victims experience temporary paralysis when raped.” This, some argue, is why many victims do not fight back. Helping victims to understand that paralysis is a normal biological reaction to an overwhelming threat will help victims manage the feelings of guilt or shame they may feel for not having resisted, goes the argument.

Now, it is worth pointing out that this line of argument is well-intentioned. Those who have lobbied for this change in law and people like myself are very much on the same side, looking to increase prosecution rates and support victims of sexual assault and rape.

However, there is a deeply problematic thread to it. The line of argument implies that if victims could fight back, then we would expect them to. But, for what other crime do we expect the person being attacked to fight back? We don’t ask a victim of robbery if they fought the assailant to determine whether their wallet was stolen. We also don’t tell them not to blame themselves because it was an expected biological reaction to not have fought back.

The application of tonic immobility to courts and the law is victim blaming in disguise. It says to victims who did not experience tonic immobility that they should have fought back. And what if a victim says that she did not fight back and yet was not frozen in fear? Do we want a policy precedent that suggests that the perpetrator should not be prosecuted or convicted in these circumstances?

Also see The Atlantic - The bad science behind campus rape (something... policies)

[yardwork]

18. Many rapists do beat or kill their victims if they fight back.

Fighting back against a rapist can be fatal, and rapists don't wear labels saying what type they are.

[Aristus]

19. "Scream, and I'll kill you."

Why is that so difficult for some men to understand?

[ChoppinBroccoli]

21. If You Watch A Lot Of Rape Trials, You'll See......

.........that the victim OFTEN doesn't scream or yell for help. And some don't even struggle or try to stop it. There are a million reasons why they don't. Some believe that if they just "lay back and take it" (as one Republican politician suggested) it will either hurt less or be over sooner or that their rapist will just lose interest and stop. Some are paralyzed by fear. Some are threatened. The victim failing to resist in any way is NOT a defense, nor is it an indication that there was no rape.

[crickets]

22. K&R for the post and the discussion.

Thank you for posting this, usedtobedemgurl.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. thank you.

I am one of those rare people, a man who admits to being sexually assaulted, twice. Though some think it isn't possible to "rape" a gay man. Also, could you post this in the Sexual Assault Survivors Group. It isn't well travelled, but just in case someone stumbles into that group, I would like a post like this to be there.

[meadowlander]

24. Selective mutism can also be a stress response.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_mutism

My dad had this for several days after witnessing some horrific shit in Vietnam and I've experienced it periodically throughout my life. You literally cannot make sounds with your mouth because stress is overwhelming the part of your brain that processes and enables language.

[Tree Lady]

26. It's my body's reaction when things happen

to freeze. Once my brother put a fire cracker under bathroom door and I just stood there staring at it and couldn't hear for awhile.

Another time backpacking I left the others to go to the bathroom, on my way back a mountain lion was only 15 feet from me once again I froze, luckily he took off.

So I totally get not yelling for help. Fear can completely shut you down. And she blamed herself for flirting why she didn't go for help later. Plus how do you go up against a rch guy with a ton of lawyers.

[JanLip]

39. My reaction

Is to fight like a tiger. I was car jacked many years ago. I fought him and made him get out of my car. I was hysterical afterwards. While it was happening I could see my kids in my mind. It took me years to get over it. I was lucky because he didn’t rape me but I believe that was his intention.
I was working nights and I believe he followed me. He flashed his lights at me so I stopped because I was afraid something was wrong. I really didn’t see his face but I stupidly rolled my window down a little to see what he wanted. The window was down just enough that he could reach in and unlock my door. He shoved me over but I grabbed the steering wheel and locked down my horn. I told him I would kill us both and I guess he believed me. I was small then and only weighed 105 lbs. you get scared enough the adrenaline kicks in and you won’t believe how strong you can be. I haven’t talked about this in years but it felt good to let it out. It was so long ago. Thank y’all for listening

Jan

[Tree Lady]

40. Good for you!

Glad you were able to get away. Yes those things stick with you.

[Rhiannon12866]

28. Important information, thanks so much for posting!

[Withywindle]

29. Thank you for this

Often, rape is not a stranger jumping out of the bushes, that's a stereotype that's a very small percentage of rapes.

Rape is someone you are conditioned to trust. Rape is someone who holds power over you like a teacher or coach or preacher or landlord. Rape is a person who exploits you and knows that if you scream or make a scene, YOU will be judged more harshly, and you know this too. Rape is someone who breaks down your defenses and implicitly threatens you so hard. If you say something you will lose family/job/fellowship/housing.

Rape is sexual pressure even in a relationship. Rape happens in long-term marriages. Rape is when your spouse holds economic pressure over you and threatens your children and pets and you know you'll be broke and homeless if you refuse.

Screaming won't do much in any of these situations but make it even worse.

[chia]

30. Excellent post, thank you for putting words to my thoughts.

[Solly Mack]

31. K&R

[MissMillie]

32. Response to trauma is different for everyone--physically and emotionally

That's not a concept that difficult to believe.

Thank you for sharing what you know about it, and doing so in clear terms.

[Johnny2X2X]

34. Even absent this response, fear and shame can keep someone from yelling for help

There's a whole range of responses between fighting like crazy and tonic response. Rape is rape, how much or how little someone is able to fight at the time is irrelevant.