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DTRV

(56 posts)
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 02:43 PM Jun 2021

Sam Seder: We Should Ban Billionaires! (Is He Right!)

Sam Ceder from The Majority Report has made several videos against the allowance of people to become billionaires. He contends that it heavily contributes to the existence of poverty. As a matter of fact, he contends there is no reason for people to "earn" any more than 15 million dollars per year. Is Sam correct? Is the systematic allowance of billionaires contributing to poverty and the financial underachievement of the lower middle class of this country? Please share your thoughts.

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Sam Seder: We Should Ban Billionaires! (Is He Right!) (Original Post) DTRV Jun 2021 OP
It's obscene that some people are so rich while others have to sleep in the street liberal_mama Jun 2021 #1
+1 zuul Jun 2021 #2
Sorry... orwell Jun 2021 #3
I'll have to remember that the next time a person who is Asian in appearance is attacked on mahatmakanejeeves Jun 2021 #24
15 million would mean that Amazon would stop at 15 million in profit as jimfields33 Jun 2021 #4
You're right - it's complicated. harumph Jun 2021 #7
While we're at it DFW Jun 2021 #5
DFW, I'm inclined to agree for reasons of common sense - but that said, harumph Jun 2021 #10
I looked at your post DFW Jun 2021 #12
Outstanding Response (nt) ProfessorGAC Jun 2021 #17
Ok then. To sum up harumph Jun 2021 #18
First of all DFW Jun 2021 #22
Virtually nobody becomes a billionnaire by themselves these days. meadowlander Jun 2021 #21
I have no problem with Billionaires so long as there's a thriving and growing Middle Class Yavin4 Jun 2021 #6
What do you think? Hekate Jun 2021 #8
We can't afford billionaires. I_UndergroundPanther Jun 2021 #9
This reminds me of Bernie former9thward Jun 2021 #11
Tax them like Kennedy did. 70% Firestorm49 Jun 2021 #13
Progressive tax rates, strong social safety nets, and comfortable living wages work well enough. hunter Jun 2021 #14
Uh huh... brooklynite Jun 2021 #15
We could pass a law rewarding competent, honest businesspeople who become billionaires. gulliver Jun 2021 #16
Populists need lots and lots of villainous enemies out to get them. betsuni Jun 2021 #19
Making it about the person falls into the trap of the rags-to-riches plucky entrepreneur myth. meadowlander Jun 2021 #20
IMHO, you've given the best response on this issue nuxvomica Jun 2021 #23
No. NT mahatmakanejeeves Jun 2021 #25

liberal_mama

(1,495 posts)
1. It's obscene that some people are so rich while others have to sleep in the street
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 02:48 PM
Jun 2021

The more billionaires, the worse it gets.

orwell

(7,783 posts)
3. Sorry...
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 03:15 PM
Jun 2021

...you don't need to "ban billionaires".

You just need to end the plethora of tax breaks and structural perks for capital over labor.

There is no shortage of money. As we have all witnessed it is created out of thin air when it "needs" to be.

There is a misallocation of resources based on an outdated model of capital.

There is only one crisis, the energy/climate crisis.

The rest is all in our minds (and our laws.)

mahatmakanejeeves

(57,867 posts)
24. I'll have to remember that the next time a person who is Asian in appearance is attacked on
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 05:58 AM
Jun 2021

the sidewalk just because he or she is Asian in appearance.

There is only one crisis, the energy/climate crisis.

The rest is all in our minds (and our laws.)

jimfields33

(16,277 posts)
4. 15 million would mean that Amazon would stop at 15 million in profit as
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 03:25 PM
Jun 2021

would every other business. Only way to stop that would be to split up personal and business taxes. I have a business and my personal taxes are added to the business taxes in one tax form. I have always thought they should be separated but that’s not how it’s done. Until then, caps can’t be done.

harumph

(1,930 posts)
7. You're right - it's complicated.
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 03:44 PM
Jun 2021

Might have to have mandatory trusts for investors that hold shares and rebalance
when a statutory value is exceeded. Personally, I think 15M is too low a figure for a cap because it
would disincentivize a lot of smart people and prompt them to take their capital elsewhere. Sucks, but
it's true. 999M would be more like it. Also, it would have to be an international agreement - and
enforceable.

DFW

(54,593 posts)
5. While we're at it
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 03:35 PM
Jun 2021

Let's ban initiative, creativity, innovation and imagination.

Make law enforcement all-powerful and confiscatory, so that if anyone gets too "uppity," i.e. successful, the forces of "justice" will be there to perform the necessary confiscation, and they know better than anyone what to do with the confiscated wealth (i.e. as always, they will spend it on themselves. Just ask Imelda Marcos or Kim Jong Un for a free instruction manual).

harumph

(1,930 posts)
10. DFW, I'm inclined to agree for reasons of common sense - but that said,
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 03:50 PM
Jun 2021

I'm not willing to concede that there isn't some way to impose a hypothetical limit to wealth accumulation that might
be enforceable. Yeah, I know that's one reason for taxes...but how's that working?
See my post above.

DFW

(54,593 posts)
12. I looked at your post
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 04:49 PM
Jun 2021

I have a problem with caps, period. If a Warren Buffet or a new Beatles (or whoever/whatever) invents their field's version of a better mouse trap, and the world wants it, well, in today's economy, SOME of them will become billionaires. I have no problem with that. Warren Buffet never made any moves indicating he wanted to rule the world or deprive under-privileged people from anything.

I have a problem with people wanting to impose these limits on others. They will necessarily be people who have no hope of attaining the same level of financial success, and the issue of jealousy rears its ugly head. "Why should YOU have it? We will spend it better than you ever planned to. Whaddya mean, 'who says so?' We do!," and we're off to the races. Here in Germany, this is a familiar tale. The story of the 1942 Wannsee Konferenz is in all the history books. Sons of generals, bureaucrats, politicians and industry titans--none of whom ever rose to the level of their successful fathers--thought out the Endlösung, or the Final Solution. That was to eradicate the Jews, and, not incidentally, confiscate all their wealth.

It never works out. Confiscate every cent Bill Gates has, and you get to distribute something like $358 to every man, woman and child in the USA. Once. It won't take long to eradicate America's billionaires that way. And then what? Give control of their organizations to committees appointed by...., well, SOMEONE, anyway. You don't want to destroy the companies, because you don't want to put 25,000,000 people out of work tomorrow.

The reason extreme solutions never turn countries into better places is that they are simplistic, and never work out for the masses. Despite some aspects, sometimes not insignificant, that are positive (Cuba's health care and education programs, e.g.), the overall result of government confiscation of concentrated wealth into its own hands has been inefficient, corrupt government. I was invited by the post-Ceauçescu government in Romania to review a tiny part of what the socialists confiscated from the people when they took over in the 1940s. Good old Nicolae kept it all for himself, and it was so vast that a week of inventorying for their Central Bank barely made a dent in listing it all.

The number of Floridians fleeing to Cuba, the number of South Koreans fleeing to North Korea, the numbers of Hong Kong Chinese fleeing to the Mainland, the numbers of West Germans "fleeing (it was never necessary)" to the former East Germany--history doesn't lie. No one likes a thumb on their back, and where it was mostly feudal lords a thousand years ago, it is governments today. Benevolent governments exist (the name Biden springs to mind), but they meet with stiff resistance from the extremes, and are never allowed to try out their most fervent wishes for the good of their people. The jealous under-performers, whether the German generals' sons with their Swastika lapels, or the sycophants licking the boots of the Eastern European "socialists," are always there to stifle the best of intentions. Mitch McTurtle and Kevin McCarthy embody the worst aspects of both, in that they display no empathy whatsoever. They may hide behind the skirts of moneyed backers, but in a position of absolute power, they wouldn't hesitate to confiscate their benefactors' wealth, just like their NSDAP and Soviet role models did before them. I wouldn't say that about Bill Gates or Warren Buffett. The job of any true democrat (small d) is to recognize this and never give up the effort, while realizing he/she will never see complete success in their lifetimes. Jealousy is just too powerful a driving force. That doesn't mean we must give in to it, but we should realize it for the powerful negative influence it exerts, both over those who have no pretense of doing good, and those who hide behind every pretense of doing good, while intending either no such thing, or at best superficial gestures to show what populist heroes they are.

Ironically, the most successful governments these days--to the extent that there are any--are the ones with the most internal dissent and complaints. That would be right here in Europe. The biggest complaints about the British come from the British people. The biggest critics of France are the French themselves. My wife and her friends roll their eyes at the nightly news and sigh "typisch deutsch." (Typically German). Even the Danes, the Dutch and the Swiss are like that, and there are few peoples more content than they are.

Given the chance, Napoleon will always take over from, and eliminate, Snowball. That holds true not only for four-legged fictitious creatures.

harumph

(1,930 posts)
18. Ok then. To sum up
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 06:02 PM
Jun 2021

you don't trust CAPS because they're fungible depending on who is in power. Slippery slope., etc... The argument you present is (almost) libertarian with a (small l). You're one of the most articulate members here at DU and I enjoy reading your posts. However, I do think wealth disparity is a problem that can't be addressed because we have regulatory capture of the taxing authority by wealthy individuals. Nobody with any sense wants to disincentivize innovation and investment by those with the money and or skill set. You mention jealousy three times in your post. I'll be charitable and assume that the jealousy you speak of is on the part of apparatchiks trying to basically steal from those who have obtained more than them and not on the part of people who just want more equity. Somehow a CAP will inevitably turn into "redistribution?" Please! People just want to drive over a bridge with the confidence it won't collapse. So, what are your thoughts about a tax on computerized trades - i.e., high speed trading? What about a vacancy tax on unutilized real estate or squatting of various other kinds?

You know, if I had a dollar for every time David Brooks used the term "meritocracy" I'd just pay for my kiddos to go to Harvard. If you think the foregoing is a non-sequitur - reexamine your post for subtlety. It ain't like it used to be.





DFW

(54,593 posts)
22. First of all
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 04:44 AM
Jun 2021

Obviously the jealousy I cite refers to that of the apparatchiks. Specifically for this reason did I mention the Wannsee Konferenz. Bureaucrats of most stripes aren't in the least concerned with the points of view of the people over whose lives they rule. The sentiments of the masses don't figure into their calculations except for those who have to stand before the voters for job security. This goes especially for Germany, where "civil (one of the biggest ironies of modern terminology) servants" have lifetime jobs, and cannot be fired. My wife worked here for decades as a social worker, which translated out to, as often as not, being an unofficial defense counsel for the economically disadvantaged facing an uncaring bureaucracy. A bureaucrat in a job for life couldn't care less about people on some blog yelling, "tax the rich" if he is in no position to do it himself.

As for David Brooks, if I had a cent for every time I thought he made sense, I might have saved up enough over the years to make a local phone call in some phone booth whose rates hadn't been adjusted since Agnew resigned.

I distrust taxes on anything that can't be rigorously controlled. Computerized anything turns out to be manipulable more often than I find comfortable. I just don't see it. After living in Europe with its value-added taxes (which hit lower-income people hardest, what a surprise), I find this kind of thing to be government heroin. Once started, they become addicted, and always find reasons to increase it. Originally at ten per cent, they are now from a low of 19% (Germany) to 24% (most of Scandinavia), and increases are always under discussion. After all the snipping and sniping, a friend who does fairly well here (maybe $350,000 gross income) had his accountant do a calculation, and he determined that he ceased working for the government, and started working for himself sometime in mid-September of every year. That is not how a country keeps its top talent in house.

A vacancy tax on unutilized real estate is trickier, in my opinion. Speculators who deliberately hold out for higher rents at the expense of the common good deserve little quarter, but in depressed economic times, owners who can't get the rent necessary for them to cover expenses shouldn't be forced to run their property at a loss, either. That is a case-by-case issue for me, because greed can't be held to be on an equal level with survival. Here in Germany, an elderly friend of my mom-in-law, in her late eighties, inherited a residential building when her husband died. It ended up being taken over by a few families of Gypsies who pay no rent and have trashed the property. She still owes taxes on it every year, and would bequeath the premises to the local government if she could, just to be rid of it. Laws exist to protect people from eviction here, and no one is more well versed in them than those most eager to take unfair advantage of them. People who are willing to pay their rent, but lost their jobs and have fallen on hard times deserve protection. Itinerant Romanians, already disliked at home, and looking for less hostile territory for their way of life, are a different story. Blanket solutions, as always, rarely solve complex problems.

The question of wealth disparity is one that I think is one of the most complex issues that any society faces. I have no magic bullet. We are faced with powerful interests who find it more important that their allies have massive funds to allot to their political self-perpetuation, and this takes a higher priority over that bridge that needs repair. This is fundamentally wrong. Adding a dime to every electronic trade may shore up a bridge or two, but it never will if those funds are in the hands of those who think a new military base in Alabama is more urgently needed than a bridge in Minneapolis. Just raising taxes is no help if the money ends up in the wrong hands.

Just look at the EU for proof of that. One of the most effective arguments that brought about Brexit was that the European Parliament loads up its whole bureaucracy onto trucks once a month, and moves its whole operation from Brussels 430 KM to the south in Strasbourg in France (to be moved all back a week later). Why? Because the French built an EU parliament building, too, and their hotels and restaurants in Strasbourg wanted the business--and the French wanted the VAT on the business entertainment, of course. Europe has bridges in need of repair, too. The British contribution to this exercise was something like £60 million PER MONTH. You can understand why many voters were easy marks for the Brexit advocates.

Back in the days before the Soviet Empire collapsed, the Hungarians used to tell a fable about an economic conference in Budapest. The US delegate got up first, as the story goes, and said that in America, a typical citizen earned a net of $4000 a month. He needed $2000 to live on, and what he did with the extra $2000 was his own business. Then the delegate from the Soviet Union got up and said that in the Soviet Union, a typical citizen earned a net of 162 rubles a month, needed 160 rubles to live on, and what he did with the extra 2 rubles was his own business. Then the Hungarian delegate got up and said that in Hungary, a typical citizen earned 4000 forint a month. He needed 8000 forint a month to live on, and where he came up with the extra 4000 forint was his own business. It is the responsibility of every government to not let its people slip into the fictitious (though only barely--they didn't call it "goulash communism" for nothing) Hungarian model.

After half a lifetime living on a continent that has been ruled by simple slogans for over a century, if there is one thing I distrust above all else, it is solutions to problems that fit inside simple slogans. In the last election here in Germany, the people apparently thought the same way. The Social Democrats, once the dominant party, fell to a miserable 20% because they ran (surprise!) a bureaucrat who had only "mehr Gerechtigkeit" as his tired election motto. A disappointed population, already happy with Merkel's steady, deliberately unspectacular leadership, sighed in boredom, and turned away. This time, they are in danger of falling into single digits. Their party leadership is now so faceless, for the first time sine 1974, I couldn't even tell you off the top of my head the names of that party's leaders. "Give the rich a good reason to spread it around," may not make for a catchy slogan, but if people out there like Buffett and Gates can somehow make it cool to do so, we might get a little further along. If a Frank Luntz and Fox Noise can make people think they are better off getting Covid-19 than if they don't, and living in poor health and ignorance, then surely the wordsmiths can be found and hired to convince the American elite of the opposite. That would be my strategy, anyway. But what do I know? I'm just some southern clown living in a "furrin" country anyway. Sure, I sometimes get to hang with some VIPs from the States. That doesn't mean they remember every word I said, or have the clout to do something about it even if they do.

meadowlander

(4,413 posts)
21. Virtually nobody becomes a billionnaire by themselves these days.
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 07:20 PM
Jun 2021

If you are one, it's a pretty safe bet that either:

- you charged too much for your product
- you didn't pay your workers enough
- you dodged your fair share of taxes
- you dodged your fair share of liability for the environmental consequences of what you're doing
- you inherited it from someone
- you won the lottery or gambled in the stock market

All of those except the last one are market failures and I have no issue whatsoever with the government stepping in to correct those failures. That's not "confiscation" - it's the government making sure that the social contract continues to function and that we don't see the kind of rampant income and wealth inequality that has been plaguing the US for the last forty years and is now starting to threaten democratic institutions there.

You know where that ends up? Ask Louis XVI or Marie Antoinette.

Yavin4

(35,461 posts)
6. I have no problem with Billionaires so long as there's a thriving and growing Middle Class
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 03:43 PM
Jun 2021

My problem with the billionaire class is that the wealth that their companies are generating is not being shared equitably throughout the entire company. The govt needs to do a much better job at protecting and building the middle class.

I_UndergroundPanther

(12,523 posts)
9. We can't afford billionaires.
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 03:48 PM
Jun 2021

The rich have huge carbon footprints..the helicopters yachts..
Gas guzzling vehicles,etc.etc. thier businesses use up resources and pollute without consequence.

Fuck the billionaires.

Why do they think they are more worthy or are they better than I?
They aren't.

Often they are worse than me ethically.
High functioning sociopaths is what they often are.

former9thward

(32,223 posts)
11. This reminds me of Bernie
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 03:54 PM
Jun 2021

In the 2016 debates with Clinton Sanders attacked millionaires. Then in 2016 he officially became a millionaire himself. Now he attacks billionaires.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/13/bernie-sanders-says-millionaires-less-in-2020-democratic-primary.html

Firestorm49

(4,044 posts)
13. Tax them like Kennedy did. 70%
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 05:03 PM
Jun 2021

Let them earn as much as they want. God bless them. They’re smart, resourceful, and successful. Along with that tremendous wealth, tax them in a manner that benefits society. The money will “trickle down” to worthy social programs, as well as climate challenges, etc. - places whew it will actually do some good. We could reduce or eliminate our national debt, provide universal health care, and put the country on sound ground. At the same time, the wealthy will still be tickled to be referred to as the 1%. They will never have a financial concern.

I have no problem with someone obtaining wealth. I have a problem with a fucked up political system that cares more about money and power than the “common good”. Remember that term?

hunter

(38,363 posts)
14. Progressive tax rates, strong social safety nets, and comfortable living wages work well enough.
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 05:31 PM
Jun 2021

Even in that economic environment there would still be a few billionaires.

The billionaires to hate are those who don't pay comfortable living wages and don't support strong social safety nets.

Wealthy people SHOULD pay most of the taxes because they benefit most from our market economy.

Nobody in the U.S.A. should be homeless, or hungry, or not have access to appropriate medical care even if they are unemployed or unemployable.

Any work that can't pay a comfortable living wage simply isn't worth doing.

gulliver

(13,211 posts)
16. We could pass a law rewarding competent, honest businesspeople who become billionaires.
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 05:37 PM
Jun 2021

But Republicans would complain that it leaves them out.

betsuni

(25,889 posts)
19. Populists need lots and lots of villainous enemies out to get them.
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 06:49 PM
Jun 2021

Then you can say things like "You can tell who is truly fighting for working families by the enemies they make, and we've made a lot of enemies." A monacle-wearing, mustache-twisting "billionaire class" sitting on bags of money chuckling at poor people: classic villain.

meadowlander

(4,413 posts)
20. Making it about the person falls into the trap of the rags-to-riches plucky entrepreneur myth.
Fri Jun 25, 2021, 07:07 PM
Jun 2021

It should be about banning pathways to become a billionaire by:

- rent gouging
- price gouging
- price fixing and monopolistic behaviour
- land banking or other hoarding behaviour
- rent seeking (increasing your share of a set value without producing anything new)
- underpaying workers
- cheating workers out of overtime and holiday pay
- privatising what should be public services (health care, prisons, basic infrastructure)
- tax evasion
- bribing politicians to enact favorable legislation (sorry "lobbying" and "campaign contributions&quot
- externalising the environmental and social costs of doing business
- committing fraud
- inheriting obscene wealth from your parents - which I would define as "the amount any human requires to meet their needs without working a single day in their lives x4". Let's say $50 million in today's dollars.

Nobody is "against" billionaires because they can imagine being one themselves one day but everyone is against the things listed above and, let's be honest, that's how 90% of billionaires became billionaires, not coming up with some brilliant, innovative idea that changed the world. The people doing that are the engineers whose stock options land them, maybe, in the low hundred millions if they're super lucky.

nuxvomica

(12,490 posts)
23. IMHO, you've given the best response on this issue
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 05:51 AM
Jun 2021

Capping income is an admission of failure to establish a fair, equitable and honest society. There is plenty we can do short of caps to prevent the accumulation of obscene amounts of wealth, but it's hard work, like all honest work. I feel the allure of caps because I see the extremely wealthy as capable of extreme villainy, such as with Murdoch, Epstein and Prince (Erik Prince, that is), all villains in their own way and each driven to increase their wealth not just to increase their power but to escape the consequences of their indulgence. But that can be mitigated by higher taxes on their resources, which is fair because nobody gets wealthy without the help of others, sometimes to the point that those others suffer mightily. And I am tired of the canard that higher taxation limits creativity, which I think is a strongly held belief of people without much talent themselves. Did J.K. Rowling and Paul McCartney give us their gifts because they expected to be wealthy? I think not. They are talented people with a strong creative drive that were using it to feed themselves and pay the rent and they worked pretty damn hard on the beautiful things they created. (I've written one novel so far and it's the hardest work I've ever done, even though I have a pretty demanding job.) It all comes done to hard work, then doesn't it. That should be what society values above most other things. Let's start from there.

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