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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThose attacking Warnock have to understand something
Black men can't attack white women in the South and get away with it. He was as aggressive as he was able to be with her. I have no idea if that will be enough or not or whether the debate will wind up being irrelevant to the outcome. But had he been more aggressive than he was, it would have mattered, a whole big bunch. We would have seen the whole angry black man thing over and over again.
MustLoveBeagles
(11,673 posts)It was frustrating to watch but understand why he did it that way.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)person.
Some people forget that the objective is to win the election, not make us political junky, Democrats yell, "That's telling them."
To me it came down to Warnock's humanity and focus on average people. I don't know if that's enough to take this race. There are still a lot of vile rubes in Georgia.
Shermann
(7,473 posts)He went after her stock sales again and again. If he can attack her personal finances, he can certainly question her loyalty and other weaknesses. He can point these things out skillfully and respectfully without getting enraged or pasting nasty labels on her like she was doing.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)appmanga
(590 posts)...and if Warnock displayed any real anger, he affirms her narrative of him being some type of snarling radical. And that's not just something women would be sensitive to, but it would agitate lots of men. And while a lot is made of it being a Southern thing, the trope of the angry black person travels well.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It's so easy - and all to frequent - for white folk to tell us how we should get all up in white people's faces because that's what they think they would do in that situation (even though we know that they're mostly all talk and probably would never have the nerve to what they so confidently instruct is to do).
It gets really tiresome.
area51
(11,934 posts)sheshe2
(84,005 posts)This is what people do not understand. You have to carefully admonish a white woman from the south especially if you are a black man. You have to say it carefully. Sad but true.
sheshe2
(84,005 posts)Hi.
soldierant
(6,945 posts)I HATE it, but I get it.
I can live with all politics being local. But all politics being personal - that's bad. I don't mean that it's not legitimate to consider personal flaws and qualify or disqualify a candidate accordingly ... but making up one's mind (I say ":mind" by courtesy) on how to vote based on personal characteristics which are both totally beyond one's control and absolutely irrelevant - tht's disgusting - but it exists.
electric_blue68
(14,996 posts)enough to black people's experiences in The South (and up north, too) to figure that this unfortunately makes sense especially in the Deep South.
Good luck, Rev W! 👍
Response to Shermann (Reply #5)
electric_blue68 This message was self-deleted by its author.
LenaBaby61
(6,979 posts)Same here. I was over at an African-American site, and many said that "Being a doormat doesn't win elections." So true.
Look at all of the things Warnock could have gone after that big, dumb robot on in a factual way. Hopefully, tRump going down there to Ga. depresses the Maggot vote, and or confuses them into thinking that voting for either of those thugs is a BAD thing.
JI7
(89,283 posts)LenaBaby61
(6,979 posts)I wouldn't say that he was a doormat, but I'd have checked her when that right-winged witch kept repeating those buzz words though. thuglicants are nothing but fascists and pathological liars amongst other odious things, but are never really called what THEY are, and after decades of hearing Dems disparaged as liberals, big-spenders, and of hearing thuglicants saying that "They're going to raise your taxes." Fatso and thuglicants have this country in so much staggering debt that it's not funny, but very seldom do I see anything really said about that by enough Dems. That tax cut for the rich, signed off by thuglicants ONLY started and ended anything that could have been done to keep this country moving in the right direction that Pres. Obama had it moving in when he left office. The money fatso got for his wall was infuriating especially since he forgot about this country's infrastructure, and now with this pandemic, millions out of work, millions in food lines, millions in need of unemployment monies, trying to again repeal the ACA in total during this pandemic, our hospitals are in desperate need of PPE, our health care workers are exhausted and we have 283 K dead from Covid-19, and I could go on and on and on those things alone fatso's proven to be the worst modern-day president in history, and thuglicant's are right there with him. There's a special place in hell for them ALL., And that witch stood on stage parroting the same liberals are big-spenders who raise taxes crap over and over and over (all while she maybe wore a WIRE, and I PRAY that was/is true, because she needs to be buried), Dems have to always run in there with fire hoses and "straighten it all out," then thuglicant's take the helm of government again, then tear things down all over again. Let me stop.
I'm hoping that the crazy, lying always, allegedly depressed Devil going down to Georgia yesterday depresses enough thuglican votes and they sit the run-off out, and/or he mixes up enough of the crazy inbreads enough who want 4 more years of this murderous wrecking-ball Administration, that they don't go out and vote at all until things are fixed. There was never any voter-fraud to amount to much from the Dem Side, all of the voter-disenfranchisement came from the fascistic side of the isle.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)I'm not impressed with the "what he shoulda said" lectures coming from big talkers on the sidelines.
I am, however, impressed with the skill, clarity and eloquence shown by the man IN the ring last night.
wryter2000
(46,125 posts)If he couldn't have gotten away with "I'm beginning to think my first name is 'radical liberal.'" It might have gotten a laugh. Maybe it would have stopped her from doing it.
Obama is a master of using humor against his opponents. Warnock has had at lease one funny commercial. This might have worked for him.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And not standing in the spotlight thinking on our feet about how to answer the last question, anticipating what the next question will be, and trying to remember everything we absolutely must say at some point in the debate - all at the same time.
I think he did great.
wryter2000
(46,125 posts)She was s robotic, repeating the same things over and over. That "radical liberal" thing drove me crazy toward the end.
Shermann
(7,473 posts)That said, Loeffler and Perdue are uniquely vulnerable on this election "controversy".
Let's break it down. The majority of Georgians voted for Biden in a historic flipping of the state. I'm sure 100% of that group wants their vote to be certified, the disputed election charade to end, and for politicians to move forward with the transition. Now I believe a minority of Trump voters are also joining these ranks, possibly a third of them. So that constitutes the vast majority of Georgians who want to move forward. Yet Loeffler is standing with the minority obstructionist group with her indecisiveness and shoulder shrugs.
I'm sure Loeffler has better political instincts than I do, and she has calculated that this is the right move. She'd like to disappear in a crowd of other like-minded Republican Senators and wait for it all to blow over. However, she and Perdue are in a position to be held to account in January unlike the rest. I say hold them to account. I say maximize the political damage and minimize any advantages.
If Warnock can bring up her possibly out-of-bounds personal finances, he surely can broach this entirely in-bounds subject in a respectful way.
Has Warnock's campaign even had this conversation? I'm not confident they have, it certainly didn't show.
Warnock was good, I'll give him that. But he wasn't great in my opinion.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)they probably already had some time ago.
It's not likely that you or I or anyone else on the outside looking in are coming up with ideas that they haven't already thought of.
HUAJIAO
(2,407 posts)For the 1st 15 min or so I was disappointed that Warnock wasn't being stronger in calling her out. Then it suddenly hit me why...... duh, slapped my own forehead....
It is so sickening... but so true...
LenaBaby61
(6,979 posts)I'm African-American and Native-American, and I'm a grown ass woman, and I have EVERY right to say what I want to say. You're coming off sounding like a dictator telling OTHERS what THEY can and can't say, and think what they want to think, and I'm not one bit impressed by you coming off sounding like a big-talking, loud-mouth dictator.
LenaBaby61
(6,979 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)We still call people yes sir and yes mame routinely down here. Yelling at someone is viewed as an afront. She likely knew that he could not go after her verbally and she took advantage of that. My guess, she likely hurt herself.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)ConstanceCee
(314 posts)Her smirking, condescending face told us she knew (or thought she knew) that she was untouchable.
sheshe2
(84,005 posts)Nothing coherent from her mouth. Just GOP talking points.
Like an older Kayleigh McInane.
But luckily for Kelly, much too old for Cheetolini's taste.
groundloop
(11,530 posts)Rice4VP
(1,235 posts)and he mostly ignored her and spoke to the people. She was trying to make him angry
KentuckyWoman
(6,697 posts)And they are right about the limitations a black man has in the south... well, everywhere....
Mariana
(14,861 posts)The angry, scary black man would be in every ad until the day of the election.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)Racism is a cancer.
Warnock is an amazing person and dynamic on the stump. There were so many moments when I wanted to see him be more assertive, but understood that the bigger prize is getting elected.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)and that the black man should have been tougher.
Lord have mercy ...
No lies spoken.
Solomon
(12,321 posts)SunSeeker
(51,787 posts)NoMoreRepugs
(9,500 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,268 posts)jalan48
(13,907 posts)the go to argument to discredit Democrats.
tulipsandroses
(5,131 posts)move those folks.That is the kind of stuff they want to hear. Radical, socialism, blah blah blah.
For folks tired of 4 years of crazy and want real work to be done, the independent and "sane republicans" - Loeffler was not speaking to those folks, and I don't think she appealed to them with her robotic RW crazy talking points. Those " center" folks just want govt to work. Warnock showed himself to be reasonable. Loeffler on the other hand, appeared to be an unhinged malfunctioning robot.
I don't think anyone's mind was changed by this debate either.
edhopper
(33,651 posts)Debates don't matter. They are not voting for Loeffer because they think she is a qualified Senator. They are voting ideology. Nobody's mind is changing.
GOTV will determine this election. Not this debate
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)BobTheSubgenius
(11,573 posts)How f'ed are our societal norms? I think it could also be pointed out that many of those same caveats could be applied to a woman on a debate stage or at a podium, giving a speech. An interview. Anything.
Anything that causes the person in question to make their mouth move and have sounds come out.
brooklynite
(94,911 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)This thread...
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)dsc
(52,172 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 7, 2020, 07:01 PM - Edit history (1)
but unlike you, I live in the South and have for closing in on 20 years (two years in the 1990's and over 16 years from 2004 to the present). I have taught in schools that have ranged from nearly 100 percent African American students with a majority African American staff, to those that have had pluralities of African American students with majority white staffs. As most people know, even high schools tend to be staffed overwhelmingly by females. Thus I get to witness interactions between African Americans of both genders and white women. And when I say African American men can't get aggressive with white women without serious consequences attaching, I mean it. Warnock couldn't have debated in a way similar to that of Ossoff without losing the race. I am not sure that Ossoff could have been as aggressive against her as he has been against Purdue but I know Warnock couldn't. He just couldn't.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But surely you're not suggesting because it's not smart for a black man to use a particular tactic in a campaign against a white woman, he shouldn't be running at all. Because that would be, you know ...
You know ...
kcr
(15,321 posts)brooklynite
(94,911 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And what you don't seem to understand is that what one "needs to do to win" varies based on who is running. What is effective for one candidate is not always effective for another. And, like many other things in this society, that can vary based on the race of the candidate.
And your assumption that a black candidate somehow isn't doing everything it takes to win because what it takes for him to win is different than what it might take a white candidate to win - as if white candidates are the norm and anyone else who doesn't do what they do shouldn't be running - merits some self-assessment on your part.
dsc
(52,172 posts)Honestly, I don't think this debate will help or hurt him or help or hurt her but had he debated her like Ossoff debated Purdue, I would bet my next paycheck it would have tanked his numbers.
sheshe2
(84,005 posts)And running in Georgia as a black man against a white woman is not the same as running in NY as a white man against a white woman.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)and that way is the way a white person would do it. And if racism means that a black person can't do it that way, they don't need to run.
sheshe2
(84,005 posts)I will not name names and am not talking DU. They know who they are.
Be careful there.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Then why is he running against her?"
That then begs the question, as your sentiment implies the one (running for office) is predicated upon the other (avoidance of appearing as the Angry Black Male).
If so, can you support that?
If not, what then is the precise sentiment you're attempting to convey?
demmiblue
(36,911 posts)Especially black folks who live in the south.
Paternalism.
helpisontheway
(5,008 posts)The outrage caused him to lose NH.
Raven
(13,907 posts)think she did herself no good with that wooden performance yesterday. He did what he had to do. I agree with the OP...this is Georgia, it may have gone blue, but it's still Georgia.
Warnock doesn't need to win over the rabid conservative base. He needs to speak to Democrats and left-leaning independents. No Democrat is ever going to win over the true believers.
SallyHemmings
(1,823 posts)Thank you!
Dopers_Greed
(2,640 posts)Remember 2008 as well.
Obama and Biden had to treat Palin with kids gloves for the same reason.
samsingh
(17,602 posts)Pacifist Patriot
(24,654 posts)This is dead on accurate.
I hate that this is the way it is. It doesn't remotely reflect my personal values. It's heinous. It's also depressingly maddeningly frustratingly true. I hope I see the day when it isn't.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But also, I suspect that most of the people doing the second guessing have never run for office and definitely have never run for office in Georgia (and most of them have probate never even BEEN to Georgia), yet think they know better how to approach the race and debates than the man in the middle of the fight.
The certainty of the "He's doing it all wrong, I know better" keyboard warriors are one of the more maddening aspects of DU
demmiblue
(36,911 posts)calimary
(81,565 posts)Wounded Bear
(58,765 posts)without being the "angry bitch" stereotype to RWers.
Blacks and women have been fighting an uphill battle against the Right Wing since forever.
llashram
(6,265 posts)an ABM scares the shit out of...and attacking a white woman? Unheard of even in 2020 and if he did, I remember Emmitt Till and the photos of his tortured to death body and soul because of a LIE. Something this culture's media has turned into an art form, particularly in these last almost four years while propping the golden toilet king...
orleans
(34,094 posts)i thought he did a great job
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 7, 2020, 10:15 PM - Edit history (1)
If he knows what's good for him, he'll include some folks from DU in his next debate prep. Otherwise how will he know what he should say and how he should say it?
orleans
(34,094 posts)MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)paleotn
(18,000 posts)Digital Puppy
(496 posts)My Morehouse Brother did an EXCELLENT job of talking to Georgia voters and wearing the mask he needed to maximize his message!