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n2doc

(47,953 posts)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:22 PM Sep 2012

The Drug That Never Lets Go

By Jenny Marder

Dickie Sanders was not naturally prone to depression. The 21-year-old BMX rider was known for being sweet spirited and warm -- a hugger not a hand-shaker. The kind of guy who called on holidays. Who helped his father on the family farm. Who spent countless hours perfecting complicated tricks on his bike.

Yet on Nov. 12, 2010, Sanders was found dead on the floor of his childhood bedroom. He had shot himself in the head with a .22 caliber rifle.

The suicide was the culmination of five days of strange behavior that began shortly after Sanders snorted a powdery substance he bought from a friend. Instead of the brief high he was seeking, he experienced days of insomnia, along with waves of terror and frightening delusions, including an incident where he “saw” 25 police cars outside his parents' kitchen window and then slit his own throat with a butcher knife. That incident landed Sanders in the hospital with stitches. For a few hours, the hallucinations subsided.

“I don't like the way this is making me feel," Sanders told his stepmother, Julie, as the two awaited his release from the hospital. "I promise I won't do anything again. I'm done.”

But the paranoia flared up with a vengeance that night, and back home, Dickie's father lay in bed with his son, arms wrapped around him, until he finally nodded off. It's unclear when Dickie woke up, made his way downstairs to his bedroom and found the rifle he had won in a shooting contest years before. No one heard the gunshot.

more (very good explanation of the biochemical effects of bath salts)
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/multimedia/bath-salts/

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Drug That Never Lets Go (Original Post) n2doc Sep 2012 OP
I think I'll stick with beer and coffee a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #1
Terrible. lonestarnot Sep 2012 #2
Damn jsr Sep 2012 #3
You HAVE to keep GUNS away from suicidal people. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #4
Why did they release him was my first question. Egnever Sep 2012 #6
Because in this corporate profit-centered society, unless your internal organs are falling out of Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #12
No insurance? notadmblnd Sep 2012 #18
Even in the best situations, if someone "plays the game" they can avoid lockup and still be bad off. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #20
So sad Smilo Sep 2012 #5
Thanks for this intaglio Sep 2012 #7
Good read, thanks for posting. Duer 157099 Sep 2012 #8
And it doesn't end. dkf Sep 2012 #13
It's like playing Russian roulette... dkf Sep 2012 #9
That is so sad. Rex Sep 2012 #10
Interesting article Egnever Sep 2012 #11
This is heartbreaking.Going to the link, a lot of info and an image of the packaging. freshwest Sep 2012 #14
If that kid had just been allowed to continue using pot, he'd still be alive Duer 157099 Sep 2012 #15
It has also seemed to increase alcoholism in the working class. Sad. nt Mnemosyne Sep 2012 #16
You know, that's bullshit. Really. I have a daughter with a substance abuse problem riderinthestorm Sep 2012 #21
A couple things are indisputable; one, pot in and of itself is incredibly benign compared to Warren DeMontague Sep 2012 #22
Except in the article, it explicitly said he tried it because he wasn't allowed to smoke pot n/t Duer 157099 Sep 2012 #25
This is the scariest drug of all BlueToTheBone Sep 2012 #17
My local supermarket piss tests part time grocery baggers making minimum wage. bluedigger Sep 2012 #24
I agree and we definitely need a change in policy BlueToTheBone Sep 2012 #26
If this is true, it's really scary tavalon Sep 2012 #19
I can't find it, but I saw a video interview with a neurologist who explained some... Poll_Blind Sep 2012 #23
What happens to the neural chain in the brain BlueToTheBone Sep 2012 #27
Yeah, I've done some research since my last comment tavalon Sep 2012 #28
It's such a scary drug/ BlueToTheBone Sep 2012 #29
Did PCP once, by accident lapislzi Sep 2012 #30
All very wise tavalon Sep 2012 #31
LOL, I think we're the same person lapislzi Sep 2012 #32
Alas, we are not the same person, for I can no longer drink alcohol tavalon Sep 2012 #33

Tigress DEM

(7,887 posts)
4. You HAVE to keep GUNS away from suicidal people.
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:32 PM
Sep 2012

WHY didn't the hospital go over that with them on release?

Maybe they did. It's just so hard to think of anything clearly when someone you love is hurting so bad.


 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
12. Because in this corporate profit-centered society, unless your internal organs are falling out of
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:59 PM
Sep 2012

your body, you don't stay in the hospital any more. And even then, once they have it all stuffed and stitched, they shove you out the door with a prescription lor-tabs or some other equally ineffective, yet highly profitable, Pharmaceutical.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
18. No insurance?
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 02:41 PM
Sep 2012

My sister attempted suicide several years ago. The Dr said if she fit the "criteria" for a psych eval, they would keep her. She had no insurance and I had told her before they untied her that she would be coming home because she didn't fit their "criteria".

Tigress DEM

(7,887 posts)
20. Even in the best situations, if someone "plays the game" they can avoid lockup and still be bad off.
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:45 PM
Sep 2012

I've been around people with manic symptoms and they can be convincing about being "ok" and talk very coherently and pass all sorts of "tests" to get "out" of the locked ward but if they aren't fully well, it can fall apart pretty fast.

Besides it sounds like the drug he was dealing with had an intermittent quality to it. Could have been "ok" when released, but it hit him again later. Maybe the drug targets a part of the brain that triggers PTSD like symptoms.

Smilo

(1,944 posts)
5. So sad
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:34 PM
Sep 2012

how awful for the family - who did everything they could.

I hope since this tragedy they have found some peace and that Dickie is resting in peace.

Duer 157099

(17,742 posts)
8. Good read, thanks for posting.
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:46 PM
Sep 2012

I've known about these "bath salts" but never knew how they worked. After reading that, it sure is scary. They describe it as being like taking amphetamine and cocaine at the same time, dopamine is released and reuptake is inhibited. Bad shit.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
9. It's like playing Russian roulette...
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:53 PM
Sep 2012

“There's no consistency to what's in the package,” Ryan continued. “We tested packages for how much MDPV was in them. One of them only contained 17 milligrams. One contained 2,000 milligrams.”

Inside the 'Bath Salts' Lab
It explained why one person might have a mild reaction to the drug, while another would end up in the psych ward or counting imaginary police cars outside their window. “It became extremely confusing to the clinicians and to us because there was no standard,” Ryan said.

It's the inconsistency of synthetic drugs that worries experts the most. Tiny mistakes in drugmakers' laboratories can make huge differences in how the drug reacts when it enters the human body. Simple highs can become debilitating illnesses. In 1982, in Northern California, for example, a synthetic heroin made in an underground lab caused a group of users to permanently develop symptoms nearly identical to advanced Parkinson's Disease.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/multimedia/bath-salts/

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
10. That is so sad.
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:56 PM
Sep 2012

They released him too soon imo. He [obviously] was still a danger to himself and others around him.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
11. Interesting article
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:58 PM
Sep 2012

Thanks for posting it. I have been hearing about bath salts for a while now but knew nothing about them. This article was very informative.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
14. This is heartbreaking.Going to the link, a lot of info and an image of the packaging.
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 02:04 PM
Sep 2012


There was so much at the link about the effects of this drug, and the who and why and how of its production. I can't imagine what it must be like to be in law enforcement or the the medical and have to investigate things like this.

Many refuse to listen to anyone telling them to not use things like this as if they are interfering with their pleasure. There is desperation and lack of purpose to give people the strength to manage the stress of life.

My generation mocked 'Reefer Madness' and made jokes about 'better living through chemistry' with LSD, etc. But this is nothing from nature and made of poisons. We are careless with the gift we have been given in this life, our body is a one time present. This is so sad.

Duer 157099

(17,742 posts)
15. If that kid had just been allowed to continue using pot, he'd still be alive
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 02:35 PM
Sep 2012

There are many stories like this one, where the kid is being forced to stay away from pot and so turn to these kinds of drugs instead.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
21. You know, that's bullshit. Really. I have a daughter with a substance abuse problem
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:55 PM
Sep 2012

and I know from personal experience that you are spewing bullshit.

Having pot legal or decriminalized is not the panacea to all drug problems. Its beyond ignorant to say that kids won't ever experiment with other drugs including alcohol, coke, mushrooms, speed and worse.

Some people just have addictive personalities and they're going to be in trouble from the start.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
22. A couple things are indisputable; one, pot in and of itself is incredibly benign compared to
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:03 AM
Sep 2012

most other drugs, INCLUDING alcohol, and relatively non addictive compared to most other drugs, ESPECIALLY nicotine.

And two, many of these people going after these "cheap/legal highs" are what the "drug war" would consider success stories; i.e. people who for one reason or another have been programmed to think pot is evil or don't have access to it.

One mode of thinking is that if we just made enough things- EVERYTHING!!!- illegal or threw enough people in jail, people would stop doing what they've always done, i.e. seeking to alter their consciousness through chemicals.

The other mode of thinking is that people are going to do drugs, some people are going to have problems with drugs, we should offer treatment on demand for the people who have problems, treat drug abuse (not use) as a public health issue instead of Law Enforcement one, and educate kids HONESTLY about drugs, including the fact that they are all different, and meth is not pot is not alcohol is not bath salts, etc.

Yes, and legalize tax and regulate marijuana because by ANY fucking yardstick marijuana prohibition makes zero fucking sense.


I say this as someone with plenty of experience around people with substance abuse problems. Filling our prisons with pot smokers isn't helping.

BlueToTheBone

(3,747 posts)
17. This is the scariest drug of all
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 02:40 PM
Sep 2012

Thanks for the info about why.


The product that Sanders snorted was called Cloud 9. At the time of his death, he was in a drug program for marijuana abuse, actively attending group meetings and undergoing frequent drug tests. He was told that the drug was legal, a great high and wouldn't show up on a drug test.

I think that this is the reason so many kids are trying this stuff. What is harmless is illegal, so they think that everything is a lie.

bluedigger

(17,091 posts)
24. My local supermarket piss tests part time grocery baggers making minimum wage.
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:14 AM
Sep 2012

Kids will find something else to do under those conditions. And so you end up with (legal) bath salts. Our drug policy is fucked up.

BlueToTheBone

(3,747 posts)
26. I agree and we definitely need a change in policy
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:56 AM
Sep 2012

Sometimes I think I should run for office just so I can help change this mess.

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
19. If this is true, it's really scary
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 02:51 PM
Sep 2012

Why do I put the word "if" into it? Because these are same sort of things claimed about GHB and MDMA and I know those are both ginned up stories.

I actually hope this is a lie because if it isn't, so many more will die.

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)
23. I can't find it, but I saw a video interview with a neurologist who explained some...
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:09 AM
Sep 2012

...of the permanent effects- and why it was so scary to her, personally. I can't remember all of it, but aside from the chemical reactions the body can produce very high core temperatures, leading people to sort of cook themselves as though they had a major fever. It's why a large number of people who are hitting the bad spot with this drug will strip off their clothing. I was under the impression that there was a good chance the lasting damage occurred at least in part due to that.

I had also read that police, for instance, are dissuaded from using tasers (if possible) becuase with the extreme elevated heart rate and body temperature make tasering an almost de facto fatal experience for the subject. Some of the behavior (like cannibalism or murder) under the influence seems to be linked to the extreme hallucinations and, IMO, in combination with the physiological stresses of high core temperature and delerium, some of the more notorious cases could be users dropping down to a quasi-reptile state.

I encourage you to do your own research, of course. This was something I only looked into a few weeks/month ago, after reading a string of extremely grisly articles which all happened to involve use of the drugs. Kids being killed by their parents, a mother who tried to kill her child but who was twarted by a neighbor, tasered and died. A guy who randomly broke into a house and slit two children's throats (one survived) while under the influence of the drug.

Like, really arresting shit to start seeing in your daily news reading lineup.

PB

BlueToTheBone

(3,747 posts)
27. What happens to the neural chain in the brain
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:06 AM
Sep 2012

is that the chemical kills the cells from the back of the chain forward. The brain will eventually reroute around the damaged chain, but to continue to use the drug will eventually kill all the cells until only the first cell will fire and the result is that it can only recognize "Drug-more". If the front cell is killed the whole chain dies and can continue on until there are no firing cells left...at that point I guess it's brain death.

I sat in on a class in drug education and this is what we were told. It's a terrible drug in all respects because of course damage is happening all through the body.

And I understand the "if" because so many lies have been told about the danger of drugs; but this one is really truly nasty...think PCP not MDMA.

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
28. Yeah, I've done some research since my last comment
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:02 PM
Sep 2012

PCP is a good comparison drug, although it wears off, this seems to be the drug that keeps on giving.

BlueToTheBone

(3,747 posts)
29. It's such a scary drug/
Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:34 AM
Sep 2012

As I understand it, when you take the first whatever, it blows out the seratonin receptors and that person can not feel happiness. It does seem to change after time, my friend who has been clean for about five years now seems to be able to have some happiness,but still has deep bouts of depression.

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
30. Did PCP once, by accident
Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:12 AM
Sep 2012

(Know your dealers, kids)

It messed me up for a long time...30 years later, I cannot smoke pot. It just freaks me the hell out.

Not that I'm dying to smoke pot any more, but I just know I can't.

And, for the record, it's the advice I gave my teenage daughter: pot's not the worst thing in the world, but for chrissake don't be stupid. Know your dealer. Smoke at home with friends. Don't overdo it, and don't ever drive.

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
31. All very wise
Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:10 AM
Sep 2012

I support strongly the legalization of pot. That said, I don't personally smoke it because it freaks me the hell out. It took me many years to understand that my job when the bong got passed to me was only to pass it along.

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
32. LOL, I think we're the same person
Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:27 AM
Sep 2012

Both non-pot-smoking sluts.

It amazes me when people tell me that pot relaxes them. It turns me into a paranoid squirrel-head. Seriously.

Now, a nice glass of merlot on the other hand...

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
33. Alas, we are not the same person, for I can no longer drink alcohol
Fri Sep 28, 2012, 07:56 PM
Sep 2012

Yet another gift from IBS. I love your term - paranoid squirrel-head. It defines my experience perfectly.

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