Would you buy a $22 American made shovel when an $8 China made one is available?

[Liberal_in_LA]

Can 'The All American Store' Reverse Our Nation's Walmartization?

Made in the USA - Deep in the heart of Ohio, a new store is challenging the "Walmartization" of America.

---------------

More generally, though, Walmart's (WMT) conquest of of America embodies a decades-long drive toward the lowest common denominator. It's a trend by companies to cut costs and maximize profits, and they often end up reducing quality in the process. But is it a trend we can reverse?

----------------

"But what about the cost?" you ask. "Isn't the whole reason American manufacturing fled to China, because it's cheaper to make stuff there?"

Again, there's an acorn of truth here, but don't go mistaking it for a full-grown forest. While "Made in the U.S.A." goods can cost more than "Made in China," the price differential is often smaller than you'd think.

On average, Petro says a U.S.-made product might cost 50% to 100% more than a Chinese analog. Some products cost less -- a U.S.-made wrench set, for example, might cost as little as 15% more than a Chinese knockoff.

Petro pulls out a shovel as an example. It costs $22 at AAS. You can buy a similar spade at Lowe's (LOW) or Home Depot (HD) for $8 or $9. Is the American shovel worth the premium? Perhaps. With wages on the rise in China, manufacturers are hard-pressed to keep prices low enough to satisfy their U.S. distributors. Often, this requires cutting corners on quality. They'll frequently use lower-quality steel, for example. Or they'll skimp on quality assembly.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/01/06/can-the-all-american-store-reverse-our-nations-walmartization/

[graywarrior]

1. Maybe if I made $22 per hour instead of $8

[BiggJawn]

3. +100

[cyglet]

15. But you're wasting that hard earned money

when it breaks and you have to buy another one in a year.

[Fawke Em]

60. This was going to be my point, as well.

American made products, as a general rule, are far superior.

I also include cars made past 1982 in this category. Screw "Consumer Reports." All "Consumer Reports" tells me is that people who buy foreign cars have more time to take surveys.

[graywarrior]

65. Then I'd buy a $100 one!

[dana_b]

68. yes - that's been my experience too n/t

[arikara]

115. A year is way too generous

things I've been buying lately break as soon as I get them home, then I have to take them back to the store. Not even worth buying anything from China.

[unionworks]

164. Moved into old house

Built in late 1800s. Found cast iron coal shovel in attic dated 1902, in perfect condition. And it fed the old coal furnace in that house till a gas furnace was put in, 1940s?

[RetroLounge]

32. Exactly!

Not to mention the $22 shovel will last 10 winters and the $8 one will last one.

RL

[newspeak]

54. thank you!

I've bought a cheap shovel that last a little over one year, and have bought an expensive shovel that we still have and it's been over ten years.

[graywarrior]

66. I bought a $12 windshield ice/snow scraper and we've had nothing but

balmy weather where I am.

[RetroLounge]

106. Well, yeah, ever since I bought a truck-sized snowblower winters have turned mild.

and I put the scraper in the car and haven't needed it.

knock on american wood...

RL

[graywarrior]

107. Never fails, does it.

[AZ Progressive]

48. We need higher paying jobs...

So that more of us can be able to afford American made products. It goes back to the lack of unionization in America (the corporate idiots destroyed unions to be able to pay workers less and shipped jobs overseas, yet want people to buy their products, how can they if they can't make the money to pay for them?), free trade (that has destroyed American manufacturing and other industries and has killed the notion of long term job security), as well as the lack of affordable to all access to education ("How dare anyone get a free education!" - conservative idiots) since more education means accessing higher paying jobs. Other factors include the higher and higher cost of living and extreme debt (including student loans) that eat away at any disposable income that Americans could have.

[greymattermom]

2. the 8 dollar shovel

will be in a land fill within a year. The extra cost of recycling poorly made goods needs to be included somehow.

[Liberal_in_LA]

6. True enough. All the kitchen tools sold in 99 cent store are made in china. The handles fall off

within the first few uses or some other part detaches - can openers and such.

[cyglet]

10. Yep.

Most Chinese made things I've bought break within a short period of time. I will always pay more for quality that lasts.

[Zorra]

41. +1. Many years ago I used a poorly made backpack

on a long arduous backpacking trip. I was young and foolish. The trip was for 2 weeks, the pack was loaded and very heavy, and I was 22 miles into a mountain wilderness when the pack blew, irreparably.

It was a really long, hard frustrating walk back to my rig alternately carrying the pack like a sack of groceries and using a makeshift rope strap that blistered my shoulder and my feet due to lack of balance and cheezy boots.

That taught me a valuable lesson. I never regret it when I buy quality.

With most items it's much less expensive and/or painful in the long run.

[LynneSin]

127. And the cost of replacing it

Which hopefully the person will just put out the extra dollars and buy USA

[Brickbat]

4. Yup.

Every time.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

70. Sticking any label on any shovel

is EASY. How can you be sure the shovel with the "USA" label really wasn't made in China?

[pintobean]

78. That's against the law.

And companies have been caught doing it.

[Brickbat]

102. Because I research the brands I buy.

Every. One.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

151. Who reviews shovels? And

even if you do find a great review of a shovel, certifying ti's made in the USA, how can you be sure a label matching the review is on the "right" shovel?

[Brickbat]

153. Oh, I don't mean review by looking at online reviews and seeing what other people think about it.

I mean I research where the company is, where they do their manufacturing, whether their workers are represented and have a collective bargaining agreement in place, and so on.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

154. Again, how can you be sure a label

matching the company name you've researched is on the "right" shovel?

Even if there's a UPC on the label?

[Fumesucker]

5. I'd go to the flea market and get the American made shovel second hand for $5..

Quality tools can last a lifetime and there's always a lot of them at the flea market..

I just bought a bunch of second hand American made tools that would have been $1500 or more new, I paid $50..

[Duer 157099]

88. Bingo. Buy used, especially tools.

So much quality can be had for very little if you're willing to buy used.

[snooper2]

138. Also works with cars, buy a used car but get one that is fully loaded...

If you get the same car without all the options, vs. one with-

Vast majority of the time the car that came fully loaded was better taken car of.

People who buy the stripo version wanted cheap, which means why would they do the maint. required?

[BiggJawn]

7. I've bought a few $8 shovels, only one USA-made one...

It was only $16, but that was 15 years ago. haven't broken it yet.

[FreakinDJ]

8. BINGO

[leveymg]

9. $22/$8 is a 170% difference, not the 50-100% of most items. I'd pay $12-$16 for the US-made shovel.

If I had a choice - in fact, I'd like to see country of origin and domestic content labels displayed prominently on the shelves for just about all manufactured goods, so I could make that choice.

[Liberal_in_LA]

11. Walmart wouldn't want country of origin displayed prominently

[cyglet]

12. I look for it every time n/t

[HopeHoops]

13. I'd rather buy one $10 hammer that will last forever than 10 $1 Chinese hammers.

We still make the best stuff, and Ames (Tru Value Hardware stuff) is definitely the best to be had. I've got US made tools that are over 50 years old. They still work. I rarely buy any tool that's not US made unless I seriously can't find an alternative and they're only good for a short while. From an economic perspective, it makes sense to buy quality rather than quantity.

[Liberal_in_LA]

17. the top of the $1 hammer will detach from the plastic handle and fly off when in use

[HopeHoops]

21. Usually - either that or it will sacrifice itself to prevent damage to the nail.

[i_sometimes]

22. LMAO!

Thanks, freaked the cat in my lap out with laughter, now I am going to bleed to death!

[HopeHoops]

26. The cat didn't hurt the unit I hope!

[i_sometimes]

28. nope but

I haven't seen him since. Man, that was funny. I have to pass it along. I have friends that use crap tools and they just don't get it. I build surfboards, restore vintage guitars (pre 1934) and drive old Volkswagens, tools are everything and always buy the best you can.
Thanks for the laugh!

[HopeHoops]

30. Okay, you work on cars. Read the body of this post.

I had to take off the serpentine belt on my 93 Sable wagon because it had cut slice in one of the cooling tubes (installed wrong) and there was NO way to get to the hex screw without removing about the entire front end of the engine (transverse, so really passenger side). When I put the belt back on, I could NOT figure out how to tighten the tension disk. There was a box-end on the back side but there was no way in hell you could get a socket wrench in there.

I looked in my grandfather's took chest (rolling style), note: he was a Ford mechanic, and found a long handled tool with a rotating socket on the end. I'd never used it before and it was at least 50 years old. It fit perfectly in the back side of the tension disk and made it simple to pull the belt into position. I don't even know WHERE to find a tool like that now! Not surprisingly, Ford still makes things that are compatible with tools from decades ago. I can't even date most of the old tools, but they are the most reliable. I've got screw drivers older than me that never show signs of wear (other than oil stains). The junk you get now just doesn't hold up. And nobody (with the exception of Germany) makes steel like we do.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Try Snapon, Mac pr equivalent

They tend to have professional grade tools that are well made. You pay a price for that, but it is worth it.

[HopeHoops]

81. It probably is a Snapon - a shitload of Pa's tools are.

They just don't wear out.

[i_sometimes]

47. Too funny

I have a few tools like that, one really does nothing but a timing belt tensioner on a Fiat 1.8 liter though it looks like it might have a useful purpose some where else.
As to German steel, yes, I agree, I have Hazlet tools that are from the '50's and they have held up since my own Grandfather passed them along to my Father and then to me. I like Swedish stuff too and find they engineer things to really last.

[HopeHoops]

83. Japan makes some pretty good steel now as well. Not AS good, but good.

I've got air tools that are 50+ years old and they still work. I think the only large tool in my shop that's not US made is my Ryobi scroll saw. I just liked the way it was set up. I use a foot pedal (like for a sewing machine). It's much quicker than a hand slap to the power dial and you can adjust the speed really quickly.

The band saw (96&quot is a Jet, the full-sized drill press, band/disc sander, and radial arm saw are all Craftsman, and fuck, I forget what the miter saw is, but it's US made as well. Pa's tool chest is a Snapon with a locking cover. I even have the key for it, but I never lock it.

On Edit: The routers are also Craftsman (I have three).

[i_sometimes]

92. I hear ya, you want old school and very high demand check out

Skil planers from the 1960's, the 100 goes for 600 to 800 bucks, surfboard shapers have to have them as they are simply the best. A whole industry has grown up around them, parts, service and mods. Hitachi even copies them down to the last bolt but just not the same. I found mine in a pawn shop in Wyoming for 30.00 ten years ago.
I would love to find another as mine needs to go in for bearings-still has the original.
America, we used to make stuff, right?

Here is one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Skil-100-Surfboard-Planer-Complete-Perfect-condition-/220768794736?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3366d87870

[HopeHoops]

121. Weird, but one of my best drill bit sets is Hitachi - and it's US Made!

I went to get another one for a gift last year and they're made in China now. Bummer.

[i_sometimes]

128. Funny about names and origins

Sometimes what I think is made over seas is actually made here and it goes the other way too.
btw, my cat apologized!

[HopeHoops]

139. Yeah, I had a friend visit me in NH and he wanted to take back some real Boston beer.

He was drinking a Sam Adams so I told him to read the label. It took a moment and he yelled, "PITTSBURG!"

The regular Sam Adams is mostly brewed at an old Iron City or Genesee plant (forget which) outside of Pittsburg. The specialty brews are still made in Boston.

[i_sometimes]

140. I hear ya, peanut butter is another one...

I drove truck for a time and I went in to Georgia, a Peter Pan plant to load. I got to the receiver and all the major brands came out, Jiff, Peter Pan, all of them from the same maker. Gas is like that too, saving on transporting by buying loads closer to where needed. If the public actually knew....
The Thai and Chinese have made huge inroads in surfboard building and put allot of shops and shapers out of business, funny thing, most of them cost more than handshaped custom surfboards.
Buyer beware, eh?

(we def hijacked this thread )

[HopeHoops]

141. We get peanut butter with one ingredient - peanuts.

The conglomerates just suck up brand names and advertise their own products against each other because they really don't give a shit which product the consumers decide is better - it's still a sale.

Someone just posted that Hostess is filing for Chapter 11 for a second time. Another company will just buy the rights for the brand names and make similar shit somewhere else.

[pintobean]

42. They're also a severe hazard to

the elbow, if they last long enough to drive more than a few nails.

This hammer goes for 20 - 25 bucks. If the price was a hundred, I'd pay it, if mine was lost or stolen.

[treestar]

44. OK but for purposes of this argument, assume they are of the same quality

Because poorer people can only afford the $8 one, and that's available, so it's arguing against their having access to anything lesser than the best when it's all they can afford.

So the issue here is presuming they were of the same quality, would we be willing to pay more.

Quality was not the issue. If it were, that defends having cheaper stuff at least available to people who could afford no more.

[HopeHoops]

80. If you only need it for one or two uses, great. They don't make anything of same quality.

I'll buy throw-away stuff like rain ponchos that are made in China. Unfortunately, companies like Schwinn outsourced manufacturing to China. The welds are pathetic, but overall they're better bikes than brands like Huffy. Okay, to be fair, Huffy has always sucked. Sure, if you need something at the moment, a cheap hammer is like a bottle of soda - it's only good for a short time.

By the way, most of the glassware at The Dollar Tree is made in the US (Indiana Glass Company). It used to be a "China, Inc." store, but I've been shocked by how many US made products they carry now. I refuse to buy candy made in China. Who knows what toxic materials are in that shit. They don't even safeguard products for their own people. Hell, Mexico used to be the same way but they've come up to US standards over the last decade or so (for foods at least). That's an entirely different matter since our food standards suck moose cock, but still.

[treestar]

85. It still floors me that it isn't all Mexico rather than China

And that their labor is so much cheaper that transport over a huge distance doesn't make it more expensive. And that it's cheap stuff to begin with.

We used to think of "china" as dish ware rich people imported.

But it works both ways - Americans have to be convinced to buy the more expensive thing, which on average they will never do, or we would not see so many local businesses put out of business by some huge chain. Everywhere you go in the US, you see the chains. I've been on long drives, and every town has the same businesses.

And there is outsourcing within the US, too.

[HopeHoops]

90. Fortunately we have a lot of small businesses around here, including a hardware store.

The hardware store only has two locations and the second one just opened about two years ago (closer to me than the first). I went in there a few months ago to find a screw for my back brace (lost one) and one of the clerks spent about half an hour helping me find the best one for the device. Go to a chain store and see if you get that kind of service. Besides, the chain stores sell everything in odd quantities (3, 5, 7 in particular) so you have to buy two or more plastic packages to deal with whatever you need them for. And you can't test anything to see if it fits. The hardware I go to (Ritter's) still has the pull-out trays like ALL hardware stores used to have.

Then there's the issue of food. The chains are way too expensive for too little food, and don't even get me started on the beer prices. We go to the smaller local "chains" or individual restaurants and they're far superior in cost, quantity, quality, and service. On top of that, the staff knows you when you walk in and knows what you want to drink.

As for Mexico v. China, one is a slave labor camp and the other is Mexico.

[Zalatix]

120. Agreed! High quality pays for itself

[Historic NY]

14. Now if they made a decent rake I'd be in.......

seriously I have old tools that have been used and abused for the better part of 35yrs that were made right here. I've bought those cheaper pruning shears, brush cutters, saws, and the cheap metal edges don't even make it a season and literally disappear if your sharepen them much . They are right on the lather, rinse & repeat. I now spend a little more, its saves those aggravating trips back trying to get a return or a replacement.

Locally we have a few light manufacturers who buy componets from China, they have loss business due to defective component which have to be sent back for replacements. Its costing them more. A couple have taken to fxing the stuff rather than wait for the returns.

We used to complain about the cheap crap from Japan, but mostly because post war it was the knock off stuff people wanted. Cheap, cheap.... todays stuff coming in is not even close to the quality post war Japan had.

[DCBob]

16. I suspect there would be significant quality difference.

I would take that into consideration.

[Yo_Mama]

18. If I wanted to use it more than three times, yes.

Been through enough cheap tools that now I just think of it as money thrown away.

[OriginalGeek]

19. I would certainly try to

I would more likely borrow a shovel though. If I knew I'd need to dig holes and planned to keep digging them I would definitely pay extra for quality.

I just spent 300 bucks on a pair of shoes for work. They were hand made in Wisconsin from leather grown in the USA. I saved up a long time and still had to use Christmas money to get them but I've wanted a pair of these since I first found out that if you spend money and take care of your feet your feet will take care of you. My co-worker is always complaining his feet hurt and he is mad he has to keep replacing his Wal-mart shoes. My shoes will last until I die and probably beyond that as I will make sure they get repurposed after I'm gone. I guarantee he will spend more than 300 bucks on shoes in the rest of my lifetime.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

71. Cheap shoes are poor economy.

To quote Mom.
Italian shoes are expensive but last a long time and are soft. You can get them resoled and reheeled.

My grandmother bought cheap shoes and cheap purses, and wondered why they fell apart.

[OriginalGeek]

99. Yep, my shoes are repairable too

in fact, the company that makes them offers the service through the store where I bought them. They will resole, reheel and polish them to look darn near brand new for whoever gets them after me (or even for me if I eventually wear them out before I'm done walking lol). But they said any competent cobbler can also do it. The best part is it will probably be a loooooooong time before I have to worry about it.

[seabeyond]

20. the 8 dollar one doesnt seem to make it thru the season. i have seen it with a LOT of other product

would i rather spend less money for it to last a significant smaller time. or buy the product ONCE for a little more.

hmmmm, brilliance.

[roody]

23. The 22 dollar one is probably better quality.

[Honeycombe8]

53. The OP doesn't say that the $22 one is better quality vs lower quality $8 one.

That's a different question. The implication is that the two shovels are comparable in quality, and the price is the main difference because one was made in the USA.

Otherwise, the question would be: would you buy a higher quality $22 shovel or a lower quality $8 shovel (doesn't matter where they're made)?

[joeglow3]

160. Must....not......think.....

[Honeycombe8]

169. LOL. nt

[MgtPA]

24. I would, like a shot! I have my mother's old kitchen tools from the 1950's, and they are light years

ahead of their brand new Chinese counterparts. My mother's 60 year old vegetable peeler finally bit the dust recently. I replaced it with 3 different cheap Chinese models, and each one either broke within weeks or flat out didn't work out of the box. I finally bought a made in USA $30 Cutco vegetable peeler, and it works like a dream! I'd buy it again, but I don't think I'll have to. I think it will outlive me and, in any event, it's guaranteed for life. http://www.cutco.com/products/product.jsp?itemGroup=1501

[qb]

25. We'd benefit from a new "Look for the Union Label" ad campaign. Those were powerful ads in the 1970s

A union seal guaranteeing quality on every American-made product would go a long way, too.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. Agreed. As a union worker's child I was trained from an early age to buy union, buy American

and save jobs. I still try to buy American-made products whenever I can -- the more local, the better.

[newspeak]

55. I miss those "look for the union label" ads and song

some years ago went to JC penneys. Asked them, don't you have anything made in the USA anymore? The sales person steered me to some T-shirts. Found out later that they had been caught sewing usa labels onto the foreign made shirts. Of course, there's "made in the USA", where they are made by low paying, captive slave labor.

We sure have some greedy, immoral shysters in this country.

[cthulu2016]

27. If they are equivalent, No. And I would be a fool to do so

If I wanted to help workers I could just hand $10 of the savings to the nearest worker.

And if they are not the same quality then the question makes little sense because they are not equivalent items.

[MineralMan]

29. I would, and I have.

When it comes to hand tools, I don't buy cheap products, regardless of where they are made. I expect a shovel to last over many, many years of hard usage. Cheap shovels don't. So, I buy one good shovel, and use it for at least a couple of decades.

[MadHound]

31. Depends on the quality

Given that most Chinese made lawn tools are crap, yeah, I'd shell out fourteen dollars more for a shovel that lasts a quarter century.

[Iggo]

33. Yep.

Better shovel.

[Edweird]

34. Happily. I like good tools.

[sarcasmo]

35. Yes.

[Wind Dancer]

36. Absolutely!

Hate...hate.....hate Walmart.

[Quantess]

37. Yes, I have done it.

I paid more for the USA made shovel at Lowes, last shovel I bought.
I'm sick of shovels breaking for me.

[Douglas Carpenter]

39. the part I don't understand is why does my Indian made Clark Shoes and my Chinese made Doc Martins

cost double what my British made Clark shoes and my British made Doc Martins used to cost before they outsourced their production to India and China?

[newspeak]

56. now, that's the question

so, some corporations aren't happy just to make 80% off of a product, they want over one hundred per cent. I think rockport got into trouble for overpricing their shoes.

[Betsy Ross]

40. Yes. We do it every day.

Well, not the shovel, but many products. We have to be desperate to buy anything made in China.

[treestar]

43. I would but most Americans would not

Otherwise, how would Walmart even exist? Or any big chain that drove out the local businessmen? People were never concerned about this phenomenon until the Chinese appeared to benefit from it.

If wages are on the rise in China, then the problem is soon to be solved, anyway.

[madokie]

45. As a matter of fact, Yes I will

Clothes I wear or tools I use I pay attention to the quality and to get good quality you pretty much have to buy American. Hell I'm still using some USA made tools that I've been abusing and using for 30 plus years and will be up to when I can't do tools anymore. Some I wouldn't mind upgrading but to a *made in china* tool option is not upgrading

I have nothing against the Chinese people themselves but their government sucks.

[undeterred]

46. Depends how expensive the shit I have to shovel is.

[hfojvt]

49. without much hesitation

However, I only buy a shovel perhaps once every ten years or so. I buy 3-5 pairs of shoes a year. Would I pay $10 more for every pair of shoes? Err, that's a little bit tougher.

At Wal-mart there were vacuums from $40 to $400 but even the expensive ones did not seem to be made in the USA. At the mall shoe store, at Cabellas, where the shoes and boots were not inexpensive, they still were not made in the USA.

I did have to laugh though. I was on a train in Deutschland and happened to notice a German fellow with a backpack that said "made in the USA". My own, of course, was made in Asia.

[quakerboy]

161. I am the opposite.

On the shoes, in a heartbeat. The shovel is a little harder.

The shovel I will probably use a season, and then be done with. I don't really have an outdoor area or a need for a lasting one. So I would struggle with the need to pay more for a higher quality item. As long as I remain in a position to do so, I try to buy american. But sometimes I struggle with it, just due to cost.

Shoes, on the other hand, go on my feet pretty much every day for many hours. And I have noticed a vast quality difference in US vs Chinese production. Even with my preferred footwear, Chaco Sandals. A few years back their production moved to china. The sandals are not as well made, even though they are theoretically identical.

I will pay the extra 25 bucks to have them custom make me a pair in their US repair facility rather than buy the Chinese ones. The US made ones last me years of constant use. The Chinese ones only last a year, there is always some defect that comes out right about a year into use.

The commonplace circumstance of not being able to find a single brand of a product in a store or even a bunch of stores that was made in the US is very troubling. I think its a big part of why so many people dont even try. You have to do research to find the single brand of bath towels still made in the US, and you probably cant buy them anywhere local, so there's no way to examine them before you buy.

[sinkingfeeling]

51. I sure would. Bought one of those $9 ones from Lowe's and the

handle broke on its first use.

[Honeycombe8]

52. The truth is that I would not. Unless the location is more convenient, or it was an emergency...

I'd like to say I would, but the truth is that I would not. Unless the location is more convenient, or I was at the American store already and needed to get it or just wanted to get that tool and check it off my list of things to do.

[emilyg]

59. ....

[Historic NY]

123. Exactly, they always complain about regulation & unions increasing the price...

but the cost to the consumer never went down the profit went up.

[SoCalDem]

57. It depends on how long you plan to use that shovel or how long to expect it to last

It's like knives..

I have a butcher knife in my drawer that I paid over $100 for....25 years ago. I could go to any store around and buy one for a LOT less, but I cook a lot, and would never trade my great knife for a cheap one that would rust or be awkward to work with.

An $8 shovel might dig a hole just fine, but without excellent care, it will be a splintery. rusted mess in no time.

The problem we have is that we (as a country) allow "American" companies to set up shop in China (with slave-labor), and then allow them to "import" cheaply made products without any tariffs, while products made here at American wages are heavily taxed by other countries when they buy our stuff

[Ilsa]

58. Our last $8 shovel broke. No more $8 shovels. nt

[KamaAina]

137. So you've broken your shovel with Chinese imports?

[Zalatix]

61. I'll choose the American shovel because...

it'll take MUCH longer to break.

[theAntiRand]

62. Absolutely

I'd rather pay $22 once in 20 years than $8 a month for 20 years

[Fire Walk With Me]

63. Anyone who uses tools knows junk doesn't last. nt

[bhikkhu]

64. Experience says: a well made tool is always cheaper than a crappy tool

...regardless of price.

Working as a mechanic, most of my tools are US made. When you actually need to use them and rely on them to not break, the cheap stuff is often worse than useless (and I have a busted knuckle or two to prove it).

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Yes, because it will last

Once a decade =22 bucks

Five a decade= 40 bucks.

Cheap is not always wise.

[Throd]

69. If the shovels are identical, I would buy the less expensive one.

As and old car enthusiast who uses lots of tools, I usually spend the extra money once to get the best quality tool available. However, if it is something I'll use once a year and whose failure doesn't jeopardize my safety, I'll buy the cheaper item.

[JCMach1]

72. This is the BIG LIE. It is not about the price point. It's about the profit margin.

Walmart will sell you that $8 shovel for $19.95 and pocket the difference.

In the UAE, we get the goods direct from China. The cost is a fraction of Walmart prices because of that.

They sell Chinese because the profit margin is higher...

[pipi_k]

73. Plastic crap!

Like, plumbing supplies...

The shower in the master bath has a dual head (shower plus hand held unit) that was getting hard to switch over. It was metal.

Mr Pipi has been looking for weeks for a dual outlet valve for the thing. Ordered one online...it arrives...he takes the old one off and tries to install the new one.

It cracked.

Plastic SHIT.

It's all plastic shit. Made in China.

yeah, plastic has given us some great products and all, but there are some things which should NOT be made of plastic.


PS...I've been upgrading my pots and pans, switching from the cheapo stuff to more durable cast iron (made in the US) ones. My cheapo ones did last about 10 years. The cast iron pans will probably last 10 times that long.

[Vinca]

94. I swear the plumbing stuff is the worst. It really is cheap crap.

[tsuki]

168. More like ten lifetimes. I have Mom's CI, and when I go, son will end up with them.

I keep them seasoned, and it is just like teflon.

[bluedigger]

74. All the time, but for over $30.

If you need a good shovel, buy a RazorBack. Get it at Sears, and if it does break, they will replace it. Well, at least for as much longer as Sears is around...

[JI7]

75. it would depend on the Quality and whether the American made on will last longer

to make up for the cost.

if i was wealthy i would buy the more expensive one regardless. unless for some reason it wasn't as good as the chinese one.

[tabasco]

76. If it was better quality. Yes. n/t

[Brother Buzz]

77. Riddle me this: Why does a replacment handle for a eight dollar shovel cost twelve dollars?

[tawadi]

79. Exactly! eom

[WorseBeforeBetter]

82. Yes: Durability, reduced fuel/shipping costs, and manufacturing jobs to sustain the Middle Class.

I'm using my grandmother's hand-mixer from 1970 and tools from both grandfathers dating back to the 1940s, all stamped MADE IN USA. Of course I would buy the more expensive American-made shovel. I live in a state in which the textile and furniture industries have been decimated; many of my fellow North Carolinians need good-paying jobs, not perpetual extensions of UI benefits.

There are 1 billion-plus people in China and their wages are on the rise -- certainly a large enough market to sustain the manufacture of Cheap Shit from their own country, thus keeping themselves, or their fellow citizens, employed. I'm not sure the Chinese are as evolved as we are, though; they might not know they *need* that $249.99 margarita maker.

[CatholicEdHead]

84. I try to look for Made in the USA if possible

Not only for quality but support for the dwindling union movement in the US. Often though some of the best quality things I come across are second hand or more. You can find some good used things with a lot of life in them in garage sales or estate sales. Things made last century, from the 30's to the 70's or 80's have good quality and still work fine today. If I am forced to buy band new I know I am taking my chances and expect it to not last as long.

[Moondog]

86. Yes. Because

I am not so well off that I can afford to buy shoddy merchandise.

[NightTemplar]

87. I know a LOT about this topic

Let's run with the example of the $8 shovel. It's $8 at the retailer but they probably buy it for around $5. That means that the importer of the shovel is into it for about $3 including ocean freight and customs, etc.

So you run a factory in China and an American company approaches you to build shovels and tells you that their budget is set at $2 each.

There's only 1 way to make a $2 shovel, to use the cheapest metal stampings on the cheapest machines run by your cheapest employees.

The Chinese mfg. is responding to the requirements of the AMERICAN who approaches him. There IS NO evil Chinese entity sending cheap crap to USA. There is only AMERICAN companies looking to make a buck.

On the other hand, China is capable of producing products of such high quality as they're indistinguishable from top US or EU items.

Top Chinese mfg are loaded with brand new German made machining equipment and the latest CNC gear run by German trained staff with German supervising management.

Americans have brought on some of their own mfg woes... I can say with CONFIDENCE that MANY foreign companies HATE dealing with US companies because US companies have a reputation for being SLOW, over priced and in general difficult to work with.

I've PERSONALLY supervised a project with parts made both in the US and in China. And I must say that some US companies are a nightmare to deal with. Parts are not made to spec, they're not completed on time and you basically get a "call our lawyer" upon confronting them.

[surrealAmerican]

97. Surely, those shovels would be made of plastic, not metal.

The plastic-bladed kind are cheaper.

[Prometheus Bound]

101. Yes, China makes perfectly good shovels, but do US importers want them?

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/shovel.html

Take the first manufacturer. It offers spades from 50 cents to $10. I'm guessing Wallmart wouldn't buy the $10 model.

I bought a cheap Chinese garden spade from a hawker here in Hong Kong and it lasted 5 minutes before bending. Then I bought an expensive Chinese spade from a hardware company that sells to contractors and it has lasted three years digging up bricks and shit. It's really strong. I guess it'll last forever.

[hunter]

104. This +++

China makes crap to order. Ordered by U.S.A. corporations like Wal-Mart.

China has the means to make high quality stuff too, but corporations like Wal-Mart demand low prices and higher profits for themselves.

We get shitty products from China because we buy shitty products from China.

End of story.

[quakerboy]

162. Although theres more to it than that

Its the demand for profit that has created this issue

If you offer the higher quality item, you might as well source it from the US, because its going to cost more anyway, and people still want to pay a "reasonable" price. But we have gotten entirely away from reasonable price and reasonable profit.

But you start with the higher quality item, and then step down quality while maintaining price, to up your profits, and they switch to a nonunion factory to meet costs, because those workers are paid less and dont care about their product as much.

And then a few years later you do it again, and now you have to source it to Mexico because its a bit cheaper

Then you drop quality again, and you raise your price a little because of inflation, and now only China can make it cheep enough to increase your profit, because they don't care about environmental byproducts of the manufacturing process, and they don't care about the workers that may die in unsafe situations, and they are even willing to have the government subsidize the production cost just to keep their workers busy.

Then you end up here, paying premium prices for crap, with a severe lack of jobs in the background.

[Jakes Progress]

111. Golly. A little reality. Probably not wanted here.

I have refrained from posting on this thread since it seems full of the most superficial hogwash. Many here take delight in attacking the "evil" Chinese for doing exactly what the American corporation that speced the item wanted. The enemy is not China. It is shoddy work. In most cases, it is the fault of corporate greed guided by bottom numbers. If the corporation is providing a 12% return on stock investment but can make 12.1% by putting a thousand American workers out of a job and bastardizing the good name of a product, they are bound by the mission statement of corporate interests to do so.

Me. I would and have paid extra for good quality material made in America (particularly by union workers) over foreign made products. But, as you mention, the problem is sometimes the foreign goods are superior in quality and design to the American made goods. We make cheap crap here too.

I think unions should step up the quality demands from their corporate bosses and advertise that with a jingle.

[laundry_queen]

133. +1

Until people realize it's American greedy corporate policies that cause the loss of American jobs not, 'the Chinese' they will continue to be duped by said companies.

For instance - that $8 shovel may suck, but that $22 American-made shovel probably should really cost only about $15, the company is likely taking that extra profit because when they are doing their pricing/cost analysis, they find that people will pay THAT much more for American made, that is the price the market will bear, so they will charge that, even if the shovel is not worth THAT much. People often pay a premium because they ASSUME that American made means higher quality and that the price will be worth it. Companies take advantage of that.

That said, I find a lot of chinese stuff at Walmart WAY overpriced. However, Walmart has a great return policy so whenever something breaks, I bring it back. Over and over again if need be. Usually sooner or later I get one that lasts, lol, or I end up with store credit. I've also tried the 'buy more expensive American/Canadian made' stuff and haven't always had great luck. As mentioned - it depends on how it is made to order. The specs matter. For instance, when my kids were little, I bought them Roots clothing that was made in Canada (it no longer is, I believe, but it WAS back then) or Please mum (also made in Canada at the time). I was always disappointed for the price paid, the clothes had many flaws. Then I discovered Gymboree - almost all of it is made overseas. That stuff doesn't normally have ripped seams, or shirts that stretch out of shape and IF there IS a defect, they have no issues taking things back. Plus, when my kid outgrows it, I can sell it on eBay, so in the end my cost for clothing for my kids is the same as if I bought it at Walmart. In that case - the overseas stuff was better quality - because that's how it had been ordered.

*IF* aforementioned $22 shovel was of superior quality and workmanship, made by a company with a great reputation for taking care of their workers (and not just paying their American workers CRAP so they can say their shovel is made in the USA) and had a great warranty/guarantee, then YES I'd pay more for it.

Generally that isn't the choice. Usually, the only difference is the 'made in the USA' sticker and the price, in which case it isn't always worth it.

I take it on a case by case basis.

[Populist_Prole]

89. Yes.

It'll also be the last shovel I'll ever have to buy,

[BoulderBean]

91. No Dem policy on Jobs

I see alot of crap from China at what were "Made in American" Prices. - This is predictable, it happened with crap made in Brazil a couple decades ago. Cheap at first, then prices rise.

I still hear NOTHING about the fact that most of the crap coming over from China is from American companies who sold out for 'higher profit'.

I still hear nothing from the Dems on how they are going to fix this.

Globalists all, and nothing we can ever do about it.

[Zalatix]

118. Sure we can, we can vote in politicians who won't even let that crap in here.

[Romulox]

131. Would you believe "free trade" with Korea is the solution?

[Prometheus Bound]

93. The Chinese manufacturer likely gets his wood from Canada and steel from Australia.

So he's paying as much as the American manufacturer for materials.

Labour would be about 20% of the cost, so the Chinese manufacturer might save 15% of the overall cost there, but he would have higher shipping costs, so the difference might be only 10% if they made the same product.

With Chinese wages going up so fast and the yuan having gone up 20% in the past couple of years, there is no reason shovels could not be made competitively in the US soon, or even now.

[Spider Jerusalem]

95. Well...

personally I'd rather buy goods made in the US or in Europe (in the "developed world" generally) over ones made in China; I feel somewhat better knowing my money is going to buy a product made by workers who enjoy the benefit of things like minimum wage, maximum hours, collective bargaining and representation, and health and safety regulations instead of one made under industrial sweatshop conditions in a country where workers enjoy none of those benefits. And in terms of quality, you tend to get what you pay for; I'd rather spend a little more for something that'll last years or a lifetime than skimp and end up needing a replacement in a year.

[Curmudgeoness]

96. This reminds me of a spade I bought

that was made in China---I know I should know better, but it was only $5!!!!

I put it in the ground, went to turn the dirt, and the tines all bent. First time in the ground. It is now a garden ornament to remind me, just in case I ever forget. I went and bought another spade, made in the USA, and I spent $20 on it. I still use it.

[Heywood J]

98. Yes.

I have a list of countries whose items I will buy. Others, like China, are on the don't-buy list. I will pay the premium to get a product made on my approved list and have, on occasion, driven into the middle of nowhere to get one.

[RainDog]

100. If the CEO to worker earnings ratio weren't so skewed here

it would be easier to buy that longer-lasting product made here.

The problem is that wages have not kept pace with inflation while CEO salaries have gone through the roof.

FUCK this neofeudalism.

[Tsiyu]

103. Most definitely I would

I just finished listening to "This American Life" where Mr. Daisy goes to China and talks to workers who make Apple products. The plight of the workers who make all of our cheap shit was eye-opening.

I don't begrudge the Chinese worker at all, but it's hard to justify buying products when you know some of the workers are 13 and 14 years old, that they sleep 16 to a 12x12' room, work 12- 16 hour days and often end up with useless hands by the time they're in their mid-twenties because of the repetitive work.

The $22 shovel is worth it for the piece of mind, and it will probably last a lifetime if taken care of.

Sign me up.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

105. Quality Control

It depends. I'd probably spend $50 on a shovel made in Japan, Britian, or Germany.

However, if the quality is right, I take pride to buy american made.

[madrchsod]

108. i would if i did`t have my 50yr old usa made shovel

of course most of my tools are at least 40 years old and several are older than i am. all of them made in the usa.

it`s really in the handle.the last handle i replaced was a rake my grandmother used.

[gateley]

109. If I could afford it I would. nt

[joshcryer]

110. No.

And I don't feel the least bit guilty about it.

[Hawkowl]

117. That A

Must stand for Asshole. No?

[joshcryer]

119. Abject poverty.

[ddeclue]

112. YES I WOULD - Next question...nt

[jwirr]

113. Actually I might. My father always bought Sears tools because they were good and lasted. When it

comes to tools quality counts.

[HopeHoops]

122. Not only that, but no matter how old a tool was, if it broke they would replace it.

I think that policy is still in effect for US Made tools, but unfortunately even Craftsman has sent manufacturing of its lower-end tools to China.

[jwirr]

124. Yes, I remember him trading in a really old tool and they stood behind it. It is really too bad that

tool companies went overseas. They are vital to our national survival. Without tools there is not much we can do.

[Ferret Annica]

114. I buy American made bicycles over cheaper Asian ones,

and shop at a family owned Red Apple grocery store that keeps more of my grocery money in the community. Even though I would save a great deal in shopping a big box mart.

I have been to a Walmart four of five times in my life, usual wheh I was giving a clueless friend a ride there to do their shopping.

The last two times I did I waited in the car for them.

[JCMach1]

116. Chinese bicycles are seriously flawed... Indian ones (which we don't get in America)

are ironically EXTRA heavy duty... go figure...

[Romulox]

129. Some of the best bikes are made in Taiwan. With Japanese grupos. Fact. nt

[JCMach1]

143. Just know the Chinese bicycles we get in the UAE... utter rubbish...

They are extremely cheap... However, they are hard-pressed to last one month with regular use.

[quakerboy]

163. Where do you get american made bikes?

I went to 3 different stores. The only US made bikes they had were $2k carbon fiber frames.

[Burma Jones]

125. I do buy US made tools, and the shovel replaced a cheap one that had broken.

Unless I can't find them, I buy US made tools.....and I gladly pay the premium.

[LynneSin]

126. I would. Because the cheap made $8 shovel from China tends to break

I would rather buy one really well made $22 shovel that is going to last a lifetime then half a dozen cheaply made Chinese shovels that tend to break.

BTW, I'm shopping for furniture for my house. I just bought a TV stand that was amish made and really nice. When I get my bedroom set I plan to also buy from the Amish.

[Romulox]

130. Oh, absolutely. I'd load that son-of-gun right into my Hyundai. nt

[dmallind]

149. Which would make sense - as most of them are American made too. nt

[Romulox]

158. Nonsense. Hyundais are primarily made in KOREA. Some are *assembled* in the cheap labor south

Nobody buys a Hyundai because they care about labor--they buy it because it's cheap (and often because they are intimidated by higher quality used cars.)

[dmallind]

159. hahahahaha!!

[Evasporque]

132. the china one will break three times before the US made one does....nt

[Jakes Progress]

134. This thread shows how effective the neocon machine is.

Lots of supposedly liberal types dumping on the evil Chinese. No sense of why we get cheap stuff from a country that also supplies some top end, precision equipment.

In the end, if a good shovel costs $22, then you will need to pay $22 dollars for a good shove. But paying $22 does not guarantee you a good shovel.

Whenever you hear someone say "You get what you pay for." You know that you have spotted a sucker ripe for the picking.

[Liberal_in_LA]

146. absolutely. I've learned a lot from reading the replies to the thread.

[AverageJoe90]

167. I'll have to disagree with that, man.

In fact, if anything, the neocons' propaganda machine is truly effective in the minds of those poor dupes who think that outsourcing our jobs to China was a good idea and that Chinese products are supposedly on the level of, or even superior to, American ones. Most of us lefties know better, though.

[Jakes Progress]

170. So just how does that disagree with my post?

You just said the neocon propaganda machine works. It does. Many here are attacking the Chinese instead of the 100% USA corporations that order cheap shit from China (and Mexico and Viet Nam) and then sell it back here after killing off the unions and the manufacturing base for America. They get some supposed liberals who blame the tool instead of the wielder of the tool. They have convinced even many here into thinking that someone else is to blame. Must be the same ones who didn't support the Occupy movement. It's a little slight of hand to convince people to look "over there" while they take the money from you pocket right here.

The don't want you to think China does a good job. They want to to think that China is sloppy and incapable of doing anything without cheap labor. That is how they convince you to kill the unions and retirement plans. They want you to think that you have to have cheap labor. They want to to think the problem is all labor - not management.

Reread the posts here. It is working.

[AverageJoe90]

171. Unfortunately, the Chinese factories ARE mostly incapable of making quality goods,.

It's got nothing to do with nationalism, or racism or whatever, but rather, how these places are typically run by their foremen, managers, or whatever.
And yes, there are PLENTY of unscrupulous people here in the U.S. that can be blamed as well, but that doesn't absolve Chinese factories of their responsibility, and it is YOU, my friend, who have truly fallen for some of the neo-cons' propaganda, because they want you to believe that Chinese cheap labor factories can supposedly put out goods that are as good as, or even better than, those made by better-quality union factories here in America, and THAT is how people have been snookered into accepting low-quality goods for a 'better price'.

Let me repeat the truth again so maybe it'll start getting to you: The Neo-Cons DO want you to think that China does a good job. In fact, they want you to think that Chinese factories do a fantastic job, while at the same time, the unions are a bunch of lazy slobs. That is, exactly, how some people were convinced to accept the disbanding of unions, and the harm towards the middle class in this country.
The fact is, unions, while not perfect, have usually had a long history of producing quality goods that tend to last a while if you don't abuse them too much while on the other hand, the factories in China are typically run by corrupt, incompetent, and cruel tyrants, and staffed by poor overworked and underpaid peasants who are just trying to get by on a few bucks a day or whatever.

The Neo-Cons would rather have us be a bunch of ignorant China-praising slobs, as we're often portrayed as by hypocritical right-wing 'news' organizations, such as FOX, or WorldNetDaily, etc. but it seems evident that most of us have woken up. Please, try to do the same. Embrace the whole truth.

[Jakes Progress]

172. See. You prove my point.

You have bought the nationalistic neo-con clap trap completely.

You shouldn't be so provincial. High quality goods can be procured from China or Mexico or India. You can't just keep thinking that anyone who isn't a red-blooded American can't do a good job. They are doing the exact job they are paid for - the job requested. It is the same as the American car industry in the 70s. That the cars were poorly made wasn't a reflection of the skills of the union workers. Those same workers could produce fine craftsmanship if it were required. But the corporate structure was getting rich selling crap. They still are. They just order the crap from different workers.

The Chinese workers are not backward clods as you would portray. They are workers. Workers in all countries vary in skill and ability. The best work comes at a cost. American corporations won't pay that cost. The majority of factories in China do produce crap. That is what is ordered. Just as the cars from Detroit in the 70s. As proof, American cars are not the equal of those produced in other countries. When good stuff is speced, good stuff is produced. You do wrong to blame a race or a country or a people for the sins of the corporate structure.

One of the unfortunate byproducts of the corporate abandonment of American industry is that many things aren't even available from this country now. My brother works with Astronomers from a number of world class observatories. As he says. You can get crap equipment from China or you can get good stuff. You have to pay for the good stuff though. My original statement stands. If it costs $22 for a good shovel, you will need to pay $22 to get a good shovel.

The Neo-Cons don't give a damn what you think about the Chinese except to have you blame them for taking the jobs that our government has and continues to reward corporations for shipping over there.

[AverageJoe90]

174. Jake, you're missing MY point.

See? You keep claiming I'm portraying ordinary Chinese in a bad light. That wasn't my intention; many Chinese are hard workers, and I don't blame the workers themselves as the problems at hand are not at all their fault.
However, though, as I stated, many factories in China are run by assholish tyrants who practically slave their workers to death, as well as obsess over making as many goods as possible without regards to safety or quality and the fact is, factories that DON'T engage in such, and do make quality products, and do treat their workers correctly are sadly, the exception rather than the rule.

And before you run your mouth about being me being provincial anymore, I should point out that I know full well that there were factories here in America who were almost as bad. And I certainly do blame selfish, money-grubbing CEOs as well. Fact is, were it not for these greedy pricks, there would be a far higher number of quality products still made in America. At least you and I can agree on that, I hope.

As I said, lots of Chinese are hard working and I don't blame the street-level working men & women for what goes on in these factories. But my other point still stands that the neo-cons do want us to believe that Chinese cheap labor factory managers & owners do a far better job of making goods than those of union factories here in America, when the truth is the exact opposite.

[ecstatic]

135. If I knew at least 75% of Americans planned to make similar sacrifices

sure. I can't reverse this trend by myself!

[Romulox]

142. Love the avatar.

[snooper2]

136. Yes...

I don't like buying shovels every 4 months

[Rochester]

144. Yes!!!

I would support American labor. And I feel certain that the quality would be better enough that it would last well move than 2 3/4 times longer.

[Ter]

145. Assuming they're the same quality, I'll buy the cheaper one no matter what country it's from

I don't care if it's from a dictatorship, plus I go in big name chain stores because they are cheaper. I refuse to spend $4 on shaving cream in a mom and pop store if Pathmark or Walmart has it for $2. It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

[Suji to Seoul]

147. Wow. . .are you getting fleeced. That $8 shovel from China costs

about 30RMB here in Nanjing (about $4.75).

Are brain dead Wal-Mart shoppers getting hosed!

[GeorgeGist]

148. Would you buy a $1000 American made iPad when a $500 China made one is available?

Steve Jobs said no.

[hugo_from_TN]

156. Excellent question.

Actually, Steve Job said that no you (Apple fans) won't.

[Romulox]

157. There isn't $500 of labor in an Ipad, irrespective of where it's made. Bogus question.

[Spider Jerusalem]

165. Parts and labour cost of Apple iWhatsises is about $20 or so on the high end

an iPhone 4S costs Apple about US$8 per unit to make; they gouge the ever-loving fuck out of their customers. Apple could turn a profit on US-made or US-assembled-from-imported-components iPads/iPhones/etc; just not as MUCH of a profit.

[Sancho]

150. if we all bought the American shovel...the price would quickly go down to $10...

and we'd get a better shovel, and the people who made that shovel will hire me to fix their plumbing (and there ain't no plumbers making house calls from China!)...so instead of all the the country going to hell - I'd buy the shovel made in an America by a UNION worker!

[GermanDem]

152. Yes, I would!

Especially if the quality is better! In my household, we use "Made in China" as a synonym for "bad made crap that falls apart soon".

[TheKentuckian]

155. Yeah, since I would but a 100% tariff on the Chinese shovel, it would have to retail

for four bucks and you know that a four buck shovel in 2012 almost has to be garbage. Hell, a decent roll of tin foil might run that much so no way you can get decent enough steel for a good head that will hold up to shovel work for that, much less a strong handle.

[vaberella]

166. Yes I would if it's the multi-purpose army shovel. Have you seen that shovel?!

You can climb mountains with it, cut barbed wire, cut a tree, kill a person. That shovel is no joke!

I've been wanting that shovel for ages now.

I've been trying to figure out how to get it past customs.

[Liberal_in_LA]

173. I remember the folded spade from when my father was in the army. Looks like it's been upgraded