Does anyone believe that the CHOP protest achieved something?

[brooklynite]

It didn't press the Seattle Government to reform the police dept (The Mayor had already had meetings with BLM protest leaders)

It didn't build a consensus on HOW the police dept should be reformed.

It didn't show that a community without police power was possible.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. People will see what they want to see.

Those working for change can use failures in CHOP to tweak their ideas and prepare for real change. Those desperate to defend and uphold the status quo will see no reason to do anything but look down own other people's efforts to make things better.

[beachbumbob]

2. had no effect that I see and really didn;t expect any

[Amishman]

53. most protests don't, nearly impossible for that to happen anymore

Media is fragmented, and people watch the sources that confirm their existing opinions.

With the urban/rural political divide, protests happen in front of audiences that generally agree.

[doc03]

3. It gave Fox News a big target. nt

[sop]

4. From a distance, it looks like it turned a lot of people against the movement.

[AkFemDem]

5. Well it pretty effectively killed the "Defund Police" momentum...

There is that I guess.

[California_Republic]

6. The really need a new name: " defund"

We are getting killed with that

[AkFemDem]

13. Agree, clearly there wasn't a marketing expert brought on board with that!

[KY_EnviroGuy]

31. Oh, I think there was one.....

he/she just happened to be Russian.......

[Wawannabe]

7. It appears to me you sit on the other side of the nation and pass judgement

I visited during the day and there were teach ins, music and ideas and art being shared. All by people who were hurting and gathering to figure something out.

Extremists make/made CHOP look vigilante but it wasn’t. There are 3 very important demands. They are painted on the precinct. The organizers have said that their aim is to see the demands met as to the police reform.

You may be a “law and order” kind of person but these people are at their whit’s end obviously about the problems that do occur (not that they perceive) and this is their current way of getting attention to the problem.

So, yes, it did achieve to ATTEMPT to bring change. Your cut and dried “didn’t work” statements are out of “right” field and I think you are putting down something because you don’t agree with it.

Black Lives Matter

These people were doing SOMETHING.

Edit to add: Additionally, where else has a group of citizens seeking change shut down a police precinct without burning it down.

It is known that bad actors are coming out of other cities to produce the mayhem. Ie., A white woman from Tacoma is being sought for torching 5 police cars. The people who “occupy” CHOP are not the violent actors. They are peaceful protestors.

[brooklynite]

9. "you sit on the other side of the nation"

Have I been to the CHOP zone? No. Have I been to Pike-Pine? Regularly. My MIL live about five blocks from the zone, so I'm very familiar with the area, the shops and residences disrupted by the movement, the opinions of the people in the community, etc.

I'm also familiar with OCCUPY WALL ST, which set up shop outside my wife's office. Both started out as policy-oriented protests, but evolved into insular "autonomous communities" of like-minded people reinforcing their opinions rather than spreading them to the larger body politic. In the case of CHOP, they seemed to think that an anarchic (no governing structure) commue (no capitalist oppression) could thrive without a policing function. Four shootings later.....

No, I'm not fixated on "law and order", but neither am I impressed with chaos. Change comes with a dose of reality. You work within the system because that's where change occurs.

[Wawannabe]

14. Yes. Change occurred in the sixties because people worked within the system NOT

What I hear from you?:

Sit down and work within the systemic system!!!!



BFD about your wife’s office being occupied. Also, your romantic visitations of your mother in law’s place and the neighborhood. How DARE these people fuck with that? Whatever, man...

When CHOP started most of these places were shut down by the shut down. When CHOP started nearly all residents supported.

No. You haven’t been here but you have posted an OP that is uninformed (or at least only informed by your need to systemically systemize the organizers).

Pathetic!

[brooklynite]

17. How many in this thread agree with me? How many agree with you?

[cwydro]

40. Why so angry?

[brooklynite]

18. "When CHOP started nearly all residents supported. "

Second federal lawsuit filed over CHOP

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/second-federal-lawsuit-filed-over-chop/B7OP5XS5YNGPLGUTMEOCARPQRM/

SEATTLE — A second lawsuit was filed in federal court over the CHOP zone on Seattle's Capitol Hill. The class action lawsuit claims by allowing the protest zone, Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan and Governor Jay Inslee, violated the Constitutional rights of everyone who lives, works, or passes through the area.

Not only does attorney Jacob Bozeman say the city allowed it, he claims they helped create it by installing barricades and bathrooms.

"To abdicate the authority to an unelected, unauthorized and armed group of people to decide who can come and go, who can be searched and seized, and under what portions of the city you can come and go from, for fear of physical retaliation against you, is unconstitutional," said Jacob Bozeman, the attorney who filed the lawsuit.

[Wawannabe]

22. There's this going on

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213666632


But you are opining about CHOP and the residents (who are probably rich) getting fed up with their neighborhood being occupied.

The “acting” president of the us is dog whistling for Joe to be shot. And you piss and whine about CHOP.

[brooklynite]

29. "who are probably rich"

The "rich" people in Capitol hill are further east (15th Ave) and further north (E Roy).

Funny how I know that from "the other end of the country".

[Wawannabe]

32. I wouldn't know cuz I poor

On this side of the country.

[brooklynite]

36. My income has nothing to do with it

As an urban planner who spends a lot of time in Seattle, I know the community.

[greenjar_01]

46. ROFL

Do you have LUNCHEONS with Democratic Party leaders thoooooooooo?

[Wawannabe]

55. Nope

But you know who does talk about that very thing...

[LanternWaste]

57. Was there a sign requiring shirts and shoes for the luncheon?

[Nature Man]

19. Rich

Funny.

"Work within the system."

Yeah, let me break out the campaign donation checkbook.

[brooklynite]

20. "New York City Council Votes to Slash $1 B from NYPD Budget"

(CNN)

Reduction in force of 1,163 police officers

Crossing Guards, School Officers removed from NYPD

Reduction in Police overtime budget.

Working within the system. Without the need of an "autonomous zone".

[Wawannabe]

24. They're too quick to act in their BUDGET

Too many police quitting. Don’t matter one bit.

And this is funny as hell! Ha! Ha!

[icymist]

16. I used to live on Capitol Hill and love that neighborhood!

The BLM message was loud and clear at the beginning. Then others started to usurp the protest for their own agenda. Then the violence started. As a woman I do not feel safe there any more. A number of my girlfriends have stated this as well. I and my friends are very liberal. We didn't feel safe there that last week. It seemed like it attracted the lawless and violent element. The BLM message was muffled, especially when CHOP sent people to discuss matters with the city council and the mayor, only to be heckled into silence when returning (to CHOP)

P.S. I should point out that I still live nearby, as well as my friends. We got priced out of living there.

[jmg257]

23. Couldn't all those ideas & music & sit-ins & at be done without taking over part of a city?

Its about their demands, I guess. Doing something it nice, and more important it did attract attention.

[Wawannabe]

25. Idk about your question

I was only describing what I experienced while I was there. The OP writer has not visited CHOP but has some very cut and dry statements.

I learned about Jackie Salyers there. Heard her mother speak. I prayed with many tribes.

http://news.puyalluptribe-nsn.gov/justice-for-jackie-is-justice-for-all-its-now-the-law/

The systemic racism in policing is definitely being highlighted at CHOP in an organized manner.

[jmg257]

8. It was an experience in trying something different.

Unfortunately it didn’t work out all that well for some.

Lessons will be learned, but likely soon forgotten except when needed to Be held up as examples.

[haele]

10. A few well meaning people had a chance to try out what they thought a collective should be in 2020

I was living in Berkeley while my parents were going to University at the ages of four through seven when the collective movements started in the Bay area. I remember how they always seemed to start out great while the guiding collective management got everything started, but once it started to gather remoras - borderline personalities who to ether were preditors looking for idealistic prey or emotionally stunted men- and women- children who just wanted to be taken care of.
The only collective from that era that managed to remain a true collective for at least a couple decades was The Farm in Tennessee, which was more of an easy-going Mennonite community that modeled itself more as a short-term rehab/refuge/back-to-nature educational business providing equal community partnership shares for permanent residents than a theoretical anarchist commune.

The serious among the CHOP community experiment will hopefully get a better understanding of the risks and rewards of managing a community - primarily, that true anarchy only benefits those who are ruthlessly and emotionally four; and that a commune that works still requires management and rules for appropriate community behavior at the very least.

Haele

[Sympthsical]

58. Cheeseboard is still going in Berkeley

A shame it's not any good. But it is still a collective.

[aikoaiko]

11. I was impressed. Can you say all your big dollar donations achieved something?

The answer is probaby no.

The point is to do something that attempts to push us in the right direction whether that be dollars or protests.

[brooklynite]

15. I don't object to protests, if they're shown to be effective...

...how did CHOP push us in the right direction?

nb - I may be more blunt than some, but look at the responses to the CHOP shutdown and ask yourself why so many people here support it.

[Nature Man]

28. NOT FAIR

high dollar "consultant" fees, campaign salaries, lobbying, lawn signs, and tv commercials don't just appear out of thin air!

They certainly don't pay for themselves.

And EVERY politician knows how to return a favor. I don't give a fuck who they are. That's the "system" we're supposed to "work" within, and hopefully effect "change." Except it is pay-to-play if you want anything immediate to happen. Incrementalism goes out the window if you can spread some cash around.

Yet, the rich stay rich, the comfortable retain their comfort, and the well-connected will never worry as much as the hoi polloi does (the voiceless).

Speak with your dollars people! It's the American Way.

[samnsara]

12. im watching it now on KIRO...

[dpibel]

21. Obsess much? n/t

[SiliconValley_Dem]

26. no. it was a side show. well, it did show need for some law enforcement

[HotTeaBag]

27. No, it was just something fun for bored Hipsters to do for a while.

It showed how we can't 'just get along' with one another - even like-minded folks kill each other from time to time.

Oh, we also learned (again) that everyone is always a peaceful protester and that any violence that happens is caused by interlopers from 'the outside'.

[Devil Child]

30. It achieved the death of 16yo black kid at the hands of "CHOP security"

[Wawannabe]

35. Shooting in Renton, WA PARK last night

It matters that people are killed - not just where. Your statement is fact but it doesn’t just happen at CHOP and it sounds like gaslighting to me!!

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/2-shot-rentons-gene-coulon-park/ENLCBFEM4FG3RHMQ5OUTYIQVUE/

[brooklynite]

37. But that's the point...

Shootings do occur in urban areas. And police and EMTs respond to them. Except when the autonomous zone inhabitants won't let them do so safely.

[Devil Child]

38. Shhhh, pointing out facts is "gaslighting" and bad mmmmmmk?

There is a deafening silence from CHOP fans on how “problematic” it is for a enclave started in reaction to violence perpetrated by state security forces against POC, then uses brutal summary execution of a black teen while enforcing their vision of community policing.

As Ms. Morisette once said “a little ironic, a dontcha think?”

[cwydro]

41. Exactly.

This.

[Dr. Strange]

42. Of course it happens elsewhere...

but there's something significant about the fact that this (nationwide) movement originated as a protest of bad policing, and the CHOP zone is now ending because their security forces shot a 16 year old black kid.

I can overlook them not putting together a constitutional republic with a declaration of human rights, but one of the fundamental issues here is: construct a society in which cops protect the innocent, as opposed to harassing/attacking them. They failed spectacularly at that.

Did black lives matter in the CHOP zone?

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

54. I will Google it.. but "at the hands of "CHOP security"

All the accounts I read early didn't really give many details.

Do you have a link where it was definitely pinned on CHOP security?
Maybe I'll find it before you post... thanks!

[Wawannabe]

33. No one remembers this from June first I guess

Presidential photo op:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_photo_op_at_St._John%27s_Church


SNIP
On June 1, 2020, amid the George Floyd protests in Washington, D.C., police and National Guard troops used tear gas and other riot control tactics to forcefully clear peaceful protesters from Lafayette Square and surrounding streets, creating a path for President Donald Trump and senior administration officials to walk from the White House to St. John's Episcopal Church.[1][2][3][4] Trump held up a Bible and posed for a photo op in front of Ashburton House (the church's parish house), which had been damaged by a fire during protests the night before.[5][6][7] Trump did not enter the church.[8][9]

END SNIP

[KY_EnviroGuy]

34. Yes, as an observer from afar: It's a hunger for community people can identify with.

It indicates that many of our citizens are thirsty for a return to a sense of local community and brotherhood as opposed to the radical individualism being pushed by the right-wing.

For the last 40 to 50 years, the very fabric of our togetherness in communities has been ripped apart by massive closings of small businesses, elimination of civic organizations, privatization of schools, creation of right-wing mega-churches and the severe political divisiveness that splits us in half.

Community and togetherness means power and that's exactly what the right-wing and ultra-wealthy don't want us to have.

KY

[cwydro]

39. No idea, but from the pictures I saw they sure made a mess.

Don't people make an effort to not litter anymore?

[Sympthsical]

59. It was a glorified homeless encampment brought to you by their mayor

Not the most hygienic of places.

And anarchy did what anarchy do. The strong preyed upon the weak. But there was a drum circle! Such a happy place. *facepalm*

It's almost like we have a civilized society for a reason.

The mayor was a piece of work. She let the situation devolve while she tried to out-woke the wokest wokees who ever woked.

Then they sniffed in the general direction of her house, and she shut it all down. The residents and business owners denied their civil rights and property in the CHOP zone? Fuck those people. They must sacrifice for the glorious greater cause. Wait. They want to march to my house?! Police! Police! Break it up! Run them out!

She'd resign if she had any dignity or self-awareness, but I've seen many of her statements. She does not.

[Wawannabe]

43. Maybe? CHOP helped achieve this - "Corporate America Gives Blessing to Police Reform"

Maybe corporate America is listening to the citizens in the streets At the very least maybe they don’t want protests to carry on and affect business in the face of the pandemic crush to business.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/business/police-reform-business-roundtable/index.html

SNIP
New York (CNN Business)The Business Roundtable is calling on Congress to commit to passing bipartisan policing reform before the August recess.

END SNIP

[ismnotwasm]

44. It gave a solid visibility to a topic that ALWAYS fades after a few weeks.

I expect to be arguing about “reverse racism” and “Irish slaves” any minute now.

But Seattle has over 11,000 homeless and the CHOP area was already problematic. This wasn’t going to end any other way.

I think it helped with some organization. Our Mayor took a huge political hit, but she and our Chief of police (an African American woman) did a pretty good job dealing with the situation, working together, allowing protesters to have their zone, up to the point it turned into a shithole, not from the protesters, but from the nature of the streets of Seattle.

Thing is in Seattle? Cops got in trouble with the Feds some years back for excessive use of force. Changes were already being made. I’m interested to see how things will move forward

[Baclava]

45. Is it over? Nothing on the national news about this. Why is that?

[brooklynite]

48. National News...

CNN: Seattle Police disperse protesters from occupied CHOP area after emergency order

Fox News: Republicans welcome end of CHOP zone, say it comes 'several deaths too late'

NBC News: Seattle police move in Capitol Hill Occupied Protest zone at daybreak, clear out demonstrators

ABC News: Seattle police clear CHOP zone, make arrests after mayor's executive order

CBS News: Seattle police clear "CHOP" zone as mayor issues emergency order; 23 arrested

[jayfish]

50. Because It Isn't national News...

and should never have been treated as such.

[Hortensis]

47. Brooklynite, you're way too sophisticated to imagine big changes

happen overnight. I don't understand this post, but hell yes.

The CHOP people are silly extremists, also yes, but they're a small part of something that's incredibly larger and not at all silly or extreme. Just way, way overdue and with strong support with a large majority of Americans.

In their own way, they also served.

[ismnotwasm]

49. +1

[Wawannabe]

56. ...

Love that sig line!!!

[PufPuf23]

51. Thank you for being so helpful. nt

[Raine]

52. Showed the need to have policing nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

60. About the same as the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge

Nothing accomplished, but Seattle has a better crew for cleaning up the litter.

It's purpose seemed to be evolving.

[Politicub]

61. Governing is hard. CHOP was a novel idea. Utopian visions usually are.

Just the execution of it fell apart. Did anyone actually believe that an autonomous zone in the middle of a major city would sustain itself for more than a couple of weeks?